Better for Surgery?

[NRAI2001]

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I was wondering what people thought about DOs vs MDs when it comes to surgery and getting surgical residencies? Does one have any advantage or disadvantage over the other or is there no major differences?

 

[fabiolablake]

I've heard arguments for both sides. I don't think there is an advantage or disadvantage for either degree.

 

[that dr. jack]

It's all about you, baby. Like fabiolablake said, either degree should work.

I've heard it's harder, but it seems it all depends on what type of surgery you want. Just work hard and hope for the best.

 

[OrthoFixation]

USMLE is the "standard" and DO's wanting allopathic residencies will likely have to take COMLEX and USMLE for a comparison to the masses.

 

[Tbonez]

I think many of the "published" differences between DO / MD put out by the AOA (i.e. whole-patient view, holistic approach) are a big load of crap. MD's look at the patient as a whole as well. The only clinical difference in MD / DO training is OMT (which is the equivalent of one more tool in the toolbag). That said, the only real difference anymore between DO / MD is that most MD schools are more academic and offer greater potential in that realm. DO schools are more clinical and tend to graduate a highly accomplished clinical physician, perhaps even more so than an MD in a primary care foundation, though admittedly somewhat lacking in research/academic focus as compared to their MD colleagues. Therefore surgery being a clinical focus, the equivalence between the two is remarkable, and residency opportunities abound. So for all practical purposes MD=DO=MD=DO=MD=DO=MD=DO.......

 

[Idiopathic]

Lets revisit the OP's question...

Allopathic surgical residencies are very difficult to come by, if you are an osteopathic applicant. This does not mean impossible, though. You should plan to excel anyway, if you are interested in surgery or a surgical subspec., so just go into the process knowing that you need to shine, and you need to try and rotate through where you want to go, and make sure you impress your professors. That said, if you REALLY commit yourself to it, you should be able to land a good spot.

Conversely, if you are an allopathic applicant, you can match General Surgery without even blinking an eye. Beat the mean on the USMLE and get a good grade in Surgery clerkship and you will have no problems.

 

[Teufelhunden]

Originally posted by Idiopathic
Allopathic surgical residencies are very difficult to come by, if you are an osteopathic applicant.

Really? I've been told that surgery isn't a difficult match these days (?) and that surgery programs are going unfilled, accept lots of IMG/FMGs etc.

Again, the gereral consensus seems to be that surgery is a relatively easy match these days now that the 'lifestyle' fields are so en vogue.

 

[DireWolf]

Originally posted by Teufelhunden
Really? I've been told that surgery isn't a difficult match these days (?) and that surgery programs are going unfilled, accept lots of IMG/FMGs etc.

Again, the gereral consensus seems to be that surgery is a relatively easy match these days now that the 'lifestyle' fields are so en vogue.

Last year only a few spots went unfilled. This year there should be some unmatched applicants. I think what Idio was getting at is that surgery is a difficult match for D.O. applicants and not M.D. applicants. This is very much the case. If D.O. discrimination exists anywhere it is certainly in surgery, especially the subspecialties. There are still quite a few allopathic programs that will not even interview D.O. candidates. Allopathic surgery programs will be the last area to fully accept DOs, as most other allopathic specialty programs have already done so.

 

[that dr. jack]

Originally posted by Teufelhunden
Really? I've been told that surgery isn't a difficult match these days (?) and that surgery programs are going unfilled, accept lots of IMG/FMGs etc.

Again, the gereral consensus seems to be that surgery is a relatively easy match these days now that the 'lifestyle' fields are so en vogue.

What I saw when looking through the unfilled spots through FRIEDA was that general surg. Had more unfilled spots and was considered either low or intermediate in terms of competitiveness. Ortho (which I'd love to do) and neuro were high, with ortho being highest. Of course plastics, ENT, urology and other specialties that can have surgical componants were also pretty competitive.

From what I gather, gen surg. Is becoming less competitive because of the length of residency vs. How much you actually make when you get out. These things change, but what I have been told, with a large amount of medicare patients, some surgeons are not making what they'd hoped.
But there will always be people who don't give a damn about the money as much as doing what they love.

 

[SawBones]

I addressed this subject earlier in the year when someone made the comment that it would be almost impossible for a DO to become a surgeon. Rather than have you search for it, I will cut and paste my comments here. Keep in mind this mostly applies to competitive programs. Many surgical programs, as someone alluded to, are no longer competitive. Surgeons have taken such a financial hit (moreso than most other specialties) that most medical students no longer have the desire to pursue such rigorous training for such limited income potentials.

Here are my comments from earlier this year:

------------------------------------------

I think it would help to understand the competitive nature of your competition for surgical programs. All too often I hear DO students complain that "I can't be a surgeon because I'm going to be a DO." This is absolute bunk, folks. Rather, I think if we were to dive deeper into the academic records of students making such claims that we'd find that they can't be surgeons because they have a B- GPA or because they don't have stellar COMLEX/USMLE scores. Rest assured that an MD student with a B- GPA and less than stellar USMLE scores won't gain acceptance to that surgical program either. To gain acceptance into a competitive program, you need to be a stellar applicant, regardless of whether your training is MD or DO.

There is no magical acceptance ticket for MD students, folks. Programs don't typically turn down amazing DO students for less-than-average MD students JUST because they are MD students. But what you absolutely MUST keep in mind is that what the osteopathic world considers "stellar" may not be what the allopathic world considers stellar. By this I mean, a stellar student at a DO school might be someone with near-perfect grades who helped open a free clinic while in medical school (i.e., the student manifests the clinical and humanitarian qualities valued by osteopathic medicine). Meanwhile, a stellar student at an MD school might be someone who is well published and has significant experience with surgically-related research.

My point is this: Your challenge lies not in the fact that your degree designation will be "DO". Rather, your challenge lies in that you must compete in THEIR arena on THEIR terms regardless of whether the research opportunities (and other surgically-related activities) exist at your present school. In sum, you will need the acquire the same qualifications as the MD applicants in order to gain acceptance. If you do not possess these qualifications, then frankly you do not deserve acceptance.

 

[NRAI2001]

Meanwhile, a stellar student at an MD school might be someone who is well published and has significant experience with surgically-related research.

What do u mean by surgically related research? I never thought of this before but do MD students do research while at med school?

 

[SawBones]

Originally posted by NRAI2001
What do u mean by surgically related research? I never thought of this before but do MD students do research while at med school?

Some do, some don't. The point is that most MD schools are at large, research-oriented universities. Most DO schools, on the other hand, are at small private universities where most faculty members "just teach." In other words, if you were an MD student and you wanted to get into a research study, you could probably find one. However, as a DO student you might find it a little more difficult to become involved in research at some of the non-research oriented DO schools. It can be done, but it is an uphill battle.

 

[Tbonez]

Go to the school that gives you the best overall experience. (Patient cross-section, faculty, etc.)
Each school has a particular emphasis (clinical, academic, research). Pick which school fits you best.

 

[DD214_DOC]

Originally posted by Tbonez
I think many of the "published" differences between DO / MD put out by the AOA (i.e. whole-patient view, holistic approach) are a big load of crap. MD's look at the patient as a whole as well. The only clinical difference in MD / DO training is OMT (which is the equivalent of one more tool in the toolbag). That said, the only real difference anymore between DO / MD is that most MD schools are more academic and offer greater potential in that realm. DO schools are more clinical and tend to graduate a highly accomplished clinical physician, perhaps even more so than an MD in a primary care foundation, though admittedly somewhat lacking in research/academic focus as compared to their MD colleagues. Therefore surgery being a clinical focus, the equivalence between the two is remarkable, and residency opportunities abound. So for all practical purposes MD=DO=MD=DO=MD=DO=MD=DO.......

Perhaps you should read this:
http://www.acponline.org/journals/news/nov03/communication.htm