BIG PT Question

[truthseeker]

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I guess I'm confused. I still believe that a PT is a PT is a PT.
I'm not sure what programs you are talking about that are one year (12 months of education) longer than the MSPT?

A PT is a PT is a PT as far as the law goes, there is no change in the scope of practice for a PT with bs/ms/dpt, however, with more education, one gets more knowledge. with experience, one gets wisdom. My point being, that a DPT knows more coming out of school than does a MPT, all other things being equal. eg. would you think that in general, a BSN will know more than an RN who went to school for 2 years? I think so. Obviously, a two year RN with 20 years of experience will know more than a new grad BSN, but the capacity of the BSN to learn the why of the treatments/interventions is higher. Their ability to answer the patient's questions is better as well.

Look at the university of Iowa, DesMoines university, U of Minnesota, U of Kansas, Rockhurst U, St Catherines, St Scholastica . . . Most are approximately one year more than what they were when they were masters programs

 

[Cyrus44]

I don't think there would be any difference b/t a MSPT or a DPT with one year experience! In fact I don't think there is a measurable difference b/t a MSPT or a DPT

I know in my program (DPT) that we have 58 weeks of clinical practice before we grad, and its in acute, subacute, and outpatient settings.

 

[DocWagner]

Lawguil, I really agree with you. I think there are some fundamental issues at hand.
The biggest is HOW PT is practiced...I am not talking about theoretical, but true clinical practice...the daily grind. This being said, ask ANY PT who practices today if a DPT is necessary to practice. Of course not. But there is a clear political issue seen. That is the obvious comparison to Chiropractic and the DC degree. A DPT is seen as a direct competetor to a DC degree. The only missing ingredient is the psuedo-issue of direct access to patient money...ooops I mean Patient referrals.
This is a clear goal and long term plan to compete.

If this was an issue about safety...wouldn't there have been studies clearly stating (and of course validated) that there WAS a safety issue and that there WAS higher education needed to necessitate the DPT degree.

Furthermore, if safety was a primary concern, why is there no definitive CEU requirement from state to state or RE CERTIFICATION for PT's?

This is about public perception and competition for patient MONEY. This is a political question...NOT a question of skill or education needed to practice!

 

[ONstudentPT]

I absolutely agree with DoctorJay. I was a PT, now I am an attending physician (ie out of medical school, finished residency, board taken etc).
Physical Therapy is a great field, but the APTA has done their profession a disservice by 1. turning their back on the "old guard" by creating a higher degree requirement with NO DATA to back up the need...and in turn creating a percieved discrepency of degree (PT vs MPT vs DPT) to the public when no discrepency exists (practice acts are the same...nothing I repeat nothing has changed in 10 years that requires 40k more education). 2. increasing student debt to a prohibitive level, while the market has not increased wages

Right now it is not financially wise to pursue PT. It is a rewarding career, but there are certainly better jobs that require the same amount of school with far better debt to income ratios (pharmacy, PA, nursing...for that matter medicine).

I would be more than able to answer any questions you may have, and I would be happy to help in any way possible.

It seems a lot of people on this forum are underestimating the salary and income potential of PTs. Now I do understand that PTs in a hospital do not make huge amounts of money probably between 50-85 000 a year depending on experience. Although I do know that PTs who own and run successful private clinics can make well over 100 000 dollars a year so its kind of odd when people are always talking about how PT education does not have a good investment to income ratio. PTs educations where I live wont cost more then 18 000 dollars for the 2 year masters degree not bad for potential income of over 100 000 dollars or even a 80 000 dollars.

 

[DOctorJay]

It seems a lot of people on this forum are underestimating the salary and income potential of PTs. Now I do understand that PTs in a hospital do not make huge amounts of money probably between 50-85 000 a year depending on experience. Although I do know that PTs who own and run successful private clinics can make well over 100 000 dollars a year so its kind of odd when people are always talking about how PT education does not have a good investment to income ratio. PTs educations where I live wont cost more then 18 000 dollars for the 2 year masters degree not bad for potential income of over 100 000 dollars or even a 80 000 dollars.

the problem is that you are talking about a Master's program in Canada. Most programs in the states (which is where a majority of the questions are coming from) are now DPT programs and cost significantly more than what you have posted.

can you make a lot of money in PT? sure, but the percentage of PTs who actually go into private practice is very small and this is really the only way to big bucks in this field - which means a large part of your day is practice management and less involvement with patients, which is not very appealing to most people who go into PT for the interaction with patients.

J

 

[ONstudentPT]

the problem is that you are talking about a Master's program in Canada. Most programs in the states (which is where a majority of the questions are coming from) are now DPT programs and cost significantly more than what you have posted.

can you make a lot of money in PT? sure, but the percentage of PTs who actually go into private practice is very small and this is really the only way to big bucks in this field - which means a large part of your day is practice management and less involvement with patients, which is not very appealing to most people who go into PT for the interaction with patients.

J

So education costs much more in the US? but doesnt it depend a lot on where you get the education Public VS Private. You can still work in the US with a Masters right? and couldnt you get a MAsters degree at a public school for about 20-30 000? And also if you dont want to deal with the stress and administrative duties of owning your own clinic .. wouldnt how much you make matter on how many hours you are wiling to work. I know physios who work two-three jobs and are making between 35-42 dollars an hour and working 45-50 hours a week which could give you about 80000- 100 000 dollars a year .. so it depends on how much you are willing to work.

 

[lawguil]

So education costs much more in the US? but doesnt it depend a lot on where you get the education Public VS Private. You can still work in the US with a Masters right? and couldnt you get a MAsters degree at a public school for about 20-30 000? And also if you dont want to deal with the stress and administrative duties of owning your own clinic .. wouldnt how much you make matter on how many hours you are wiling to work. I know physios who work two-three jobs and are making between 35-42 dollars an hour and working 45-50 hours a week which could give you about 80000- 100 000 dollars a year .. so it depends on how much you are willing to work.

II agree with what you are saying. If you are the type looking, you can find the right market and work long hours and make decent money.... The more typical situation is that folks work the 8-5 hours and make 35-55-k. I think the message is that it's easier to make more money in other healthcare disciplines with similar time spent in school and dept. Obviously, do what you think you want to do, but be cautious.....sometimes the desire to be is more intriguing than being

 

[ONstudentPT]

II agree with what you are saying. If you are the type looking, you can find the right market and work long hours and make decent money.... The more typical situation is that folks work the 8-5 hours and make 35-55-k. I think the message is that it's easier to make more money in other healthcare disciplines with similar time spent in school and dept. Obviously, do what you think you want to do, but be cautious.....sometimes the desire to be is more intriguing than being

I am not quite sure where you live .. but I guess PTs there are very underpaid. The typical situation is not 35 k a year for a physio who works 40hours a week thats just ridiculous.

I know for a fact that PTs where I live and other places as well start at about 55 000 dollars a year( which is about 49 000 american) right out of school in a hospital setting and this is working about 37.5 hours a week but in private clinics you could make significantly more.

I think every profession has its own challenges and I am pretty sure you have to work hard at any profession if you want to be successful.

Is it easier to make more money in other healthcare professions .. well PAs dont really work that much in Canada so I cant really comment on them. PAs and Pharmacists may make a bit more money in in-patient hospital settings but once you get working in private clinics or owning and running a business things even out a bit more.


I think PT gives you some options.. if you want you can work 37 hours a week and make between 55-85 000 or up to 90-100 000 if you are a director or supervisor but the good thing is that if you want to work more hours and make more you can.

Also if you want to you can own your own business and work as much as you want and make as much as you want. I know of physios who own several clinics make well over 100 000 a year and have a very comfortable lifestyle ofcourse with business (like any other business) there are risks but the potential is definetly there.

 

[lawguil]

I am not quite sure where you live .. but I guess PTs there are very underpaid. The typical situation is not 35 k a year for a physio who works 40hours a week thats just ridiculous.

I know for a fact that PTs where I live and other places as well start at about 55 000 dollars a year( which is about 49 000 american) right out of school in a hospital setting and this is working about 37.5 hours a week but in private clinics you could make significantly more.

I think every profession has its own challenges and I am pretty sure you have to work hard at any profession if you want to be successful.

Is it easier to make more money in other healthcare professions .. well PAs dont really work that much in Canada so I cant really comment on them. PAs and Pharmacists may make a bit more money in in-patient hospital settings but once you get working in private clinics or owning and running a business things even out a bit more.


I think PT gives you some options.. if you want you can work 37 hours a week and make between 55-85 000 or up to 90-100 000 if you are a director or supervisor but the good thing is that if you want to work more hours and make more you can.

Also if you want to you can own your own business and work as much as you want and make as much as you want. I know of physios who own several clinics make well over 100 000 a year and have a very comfortable lifestyle ofcourse with business (like any other business) there are risks but the potential is definetly there.

I'm not sure where you're getting these figures, but in the northeastern US, you can slice your numbers in half. Sounds like things are different in Canada....I see students taking first jobs making 35-45k year. From what I have seen, average with experience is 50-60k.....Private practice...don't know, but the private practice PT's I know seem to have nice cars and homes.

 

[DocWagner]

OnstudentPT, you may wish to recheck your numbers there regarding salary. In any case, 50k out of school for an American PT would be considered "good". I started at 41k over 10 years ago. That being a primary point in this discussion. I am not saying PT is bad or that the money is bad...but compared to the debt that accumulates, it is a MAJOR factor in making the decision. Unfortunately, this debt will deter other PTs from going into medicine...for fear of overwhelming debt. This fact bothers me a bit, but is likely good news for the APTA...creating a captive audience.

 

[ONstudentPT]

OnstudentPT, you may wish to recheck your numbers there regarding salary. In any case, 50k out of school for an American PT would be considered "good". I started at 41k over 10 years ago. That being a primary point in this discussion. I am not saying PT is bad or that the money is bad...but compared to the debt that accumulates, it is a MAJOR factor in making the decision. Unfortunately, this debt will deter other PTs from going into medicine...for fear of overwhelming debt. This fact bothers me a bit, but is likely good news for the APTA...creating a captive audience.

The numbers .. ie 55k starting salary at a hospital( with most PTs making between 50-85k a year so that averages at about 65-70k) .... that I am getting are from PTs whom I know personally and have graduated from my program and have just started working as staff PTs at hospitals. They tell me that PTs who accept anything less than that are foolish. After I am done my Masters in PT it will have cost me about 18 000 dollars which doesnt seem like that bad of a deal to me but this is from a public not private university.

Lawgill,

I am not sure about how things are for PTs in the states I can only say what I know about where I live but like you said PTs who work in the Private sector and not hospitals will have incomes which may be significantly greater. I think the issue with collecting data on salaries for the PT profession is that it is difficult to get reliable income data from PTs in the private sector so the discussions tend to focus on hospital PT salaries.

 

[DocWagner]

I think it is EXTREMELY important that we, as professionals, do not give a false impression of "big money" in PT. The vast majority of PTs work in the previous range that i spoke of earlier. There are the 1:100 PTs that own a private practice and make 100k. They , like my nextdoor neighbor, work 6 days a week for the first 5 years of their private practice.

 

[ONstudentPT]

I think it is EXTREMELY important that we, as professionals, do not give a false impression of "big money" in PT. The vast majority of PTs work in the previous range that i spoke of earlier. There are the 1:100 PTs that own a private practice and make 100k. They , like my nextdoor neighbor, work 6 days a week for the first 5 years of their private practice.

Now that I think about .. you guys are probably right. PT is not a big money profession. Most PTs can not afford the risk of owning private clinics and the salaries paid at hospitals are just not worth the huge debt from school. So it would be wiser to pick a different profession unless you have some undying passion for it and do not mind making little money after a lot of debt.

Things may be different in other places though. Not everything is always as it seems.

 

[bigdan]

If we take the APTA's own published information, about 60% of PTs are making less than or equal to 70K; less than 9% make more than 100K. The survey pool is 32,000+ PTs.

If you were to hypothetically take my path (disclosure - I'm an OT not PT): from my alma mater, Utica College (private, upstate NY), you'd do 4 years for the bachelors (~90K) then grad years for DPT - no longer offering an MSPT - which costs around 65K. So you head into your new job for 65K/yr in Binghamton NY (also upstate NY, where I got my first job) with a debt load of 155K - not counting anything you might have taken in loans for cost of living. According to APTA numbers, only 9% of PTs will work for greater than 100K. You're not gonna buy a big house soon.

You've gotta do what you love, but thinking "I'll be a hardworking PT and make a lot of money" just isn't supported by the numbers I'm looking at. If (more likely "when") you work as a therapist for Medicare-paying clientle, your income is very closely tied to what you can bill. And Uncle Sam doesn't give a rats a** if you have a PT certificate, bachelors, masters, doctorate, post-doc, etc. You do a PT eval, you get "X" dollars.

Good profession anyway, even though the DPT is of questionable clinical merit.

dc

 

[ONstudentPT]

If we take the APTA's own published information, about 60% of PTs are making less than or equal to 70K; less than 9% make more than 100K. The survey pool is 32,000+ PTs.

If you were to hypothetically take my path (disclosure - I'm an OT not PT): from my alma mater, Utica College (private, upstate NY), you'd do 4 years for the bachelors (~90K) then grad years for DPT - no longer offering an MSPT - which costs around 65K. So you head into your new job for 65K/yr in Binghamton NY (also upstate NY, where I got my first job) with a debt load of 155K - not counting anything you might have taken in loans for cost of living. According to APTA numbers, only 9% of PTs will work for greater than 100K. You're not gonna buy a big house soon.

You've gotta do what you love, but thinking "I'll be a hardworking PT and make a lot of money" just isn't supported by the numbers I'm looking at. If (more likely "when") you work as a therapist for Medicare-paying clientle, your income is very closely tied to what you can bill. And Uncle Sam doesn't give a rats a** if you have a PT certificate, bachelors, masters, doctorate, post-doc, etc. You do a PT eval, you get "X" dollars.

Good profession anyway, even though the DPT is of questionable clinical merit.

dc

Its a sad future all that debt and no money.....

 

[DocWagner]

yes...the point.

 

[ONstudentPT]

yes...the point.

Ok just incase noone picked up on it .. i was being a little sarcastic.

I dont know about everyone else but 75k(APTA numbers) and a comfortable life style does not sound soo bad.

The problem is the debt that a PT student can accumulate.

So the solution would be go to a public university do a Masters of PT instead of DPT(upgrade later if you absolutely have to) and at least from my knowlege .. it would cost you about 20k ...(in Canada it would cost about 18k). So is this unrealistic in the US ?? I am asking cause i am not sure....

20k investment for an income of 75k and the potential to make over 100k(although i understand this will be rare and risky) doesnt sound as horrible as you guys are making it seem.

 

[fbplayr75]

Here is my situation:

I understand that there isn't the greatest money in PT, 75K a year to me sounds great.

I will get graduate from BS in Health Science with under $7000 in student loans.

When I get accepted to the state school nearby, the tuition is about $2800 a semster.

Hopefully I can get my DPT with under $40,000 in debt.

I guess my question is:

Does this make PT more plausible considering that I will not have $155K in loans like many of those that have posted have already stated?

 

[lawguil]

Here is my situation:

I understand that there isn't the greatest money in PT, 75K a year to me sounds great.

I will get graduate from BS in Health Science with under $7000 in student loans.

When I get accepted to the state school nearby, the tuition is about $2800 a semster.

Hopefully I can get my DPT with under $40,000 in debt.

I guess my question is:

Does this make PT more plausible considering that I will not have $155K in loans like many of those that have posted have already stated?

40k in dept is very reasonable. If you want to be a PT go for it. I wouldn't expect 75k though........

 

[DOctorJay]

I agree with Lawguil,

it's not that PT is bad, none of us are saying that, what we're saying is take a real good look at the debt you'll incur in this field and whether or not it makes financial sense to pursue it.

if you can get your degree and not incur much debt then it's a great field. It's just very difficult to still be able to do this with the programs changing to DPT.

If you want to make money right out of school become a traveling therapist. 2 of my best friends from PT school are doing very well this way.

 

[DocWagner]

OnPTstudent,

Did you read the post? It said "60% of PTs are making less than or equal to 70k"
Did you read that correctly?
Reread it.

It DOES NOT STATE "at least 60% are making 70k"...perhaps you are reading this incorrectly.

ie, there is not going to be a starting salary for a PT anywhere close to that, I would say 50k would be a resonable number for a 40 hour work week in the city. Maybe 60k depending on region. Where do you go from there?

This is NOT bashing my former profession. I referred 2 patients to PT today! But rather dismissing this notion of big money. 140k of school debt buys you 600 dollars in loan payments a month. That is a hunk of that monthly check.

I encourage anyone to do what they love, but 75k out of school simply is not going to happen...maybe after 5+ years of experience...maybe. My best friend is a PT and doesnt make that (after 10yrs), and doesn't expect it. But he loves his job. He also had under 10k in debt...not a DPT.

I think this topic has run the course.

 

[ONstudentPT]

OnPTstudent,

Did you read the post? It said "60% of PTs are making less than or equal to 70k"
Did you read that correctly?
Reread it.

It DOES NOT STATE "at least 60% are making 70k"...perhaps you are reading this incorrectly.

ie, there is not going to be a starting salary for a PT anywhere close to that, I would say 50k would be a resonable number for a 40 hour work week in the city. Maybe 60k depending on region. Where do you go from there?

This is NOT bashing my former profession. I referred 2 patients to PT today! But rather dismissing this notion of big money. 140k of school debt buys you 600 dollars in loan payments a month. That is a hunk of that monthly check.

I encourage anyone to do what they love, but 75k out of school simply is not going to happen...maybe after 5+ years of experience...maybe. My best friend is a PT and doesnt make that (after 10yrs), and doesn't expect it. But he loves his job. He also had under 10k in debt...not a DPT.

I think this topic has run the course.

Did you not read the earlier posts clearly .. myself and another student said that our debt would be under 20 or 40k ... and ofcourse 75 is not resonable right out of school.. but I also know PTs who make 70-80k after severals years of experience and post graduate courses in the private sector so the point was that if you have debts under 40k .. and make 70-80k even after 5 years of experience.. i think thats pretty reasonable .... so the KEY IS dont get your self in 155k of debt .. be smart about your education!!!

 

[ONstudentPT]

Here is my situation:

I understand that there isn't the greatest money in PT, 75K a year to me sounds great.

I will get graduate from BS in Health Science with under $7000 in student loans.

When I get accepted to the state school nearby, the tuition is about $2800 a semster.

Hopefully I can get my DPT with under $40,000 in debt.

I guess my question is:

Does this make PT more plausible considering that I will not have $155K in loans like many of those that have posted have already stated?

I think your situation is pretty good. With under 40k of debt I think PT would be pretty good choice fianancially especially if this is something you really want to do.

The DPT IMO is really not that necessary at this point and is a real problem for US students who get thier PT education in private schools and accumalate loads of debt.

I personally know PTs who just graduated from my program and are making 54k (38hrs/week) right out of school and this is in hospitals and I also personally know PTs who right out of school are working in several private clinics probably about 45-50 hours a week and making over 60k right out of school as well.

After several years of experience and courses in manual therapy a PT in a private clinic should have no trouble finding a job making 70-80k.

If you are a risk taker and are willing to risk about 100k to open your own clinic you could either totally flop but also could make well over 100k a year. I know PTs who own private clinics and make over 130k but I have also heard of PTs who own clinics and are struggling so it depends but the potential is there.


Are there jobs that you can make more money with if you are working in a hospital setting .. well ofcourse...PAs, pharmacists, .. will make more in an in-pateint setting. But it depends on where you live and what you want to do ....there are no PA schools where I live so that wouldnt have been an option for me and pharmacy just didnt appeal to me.

I guess the take home point is that if you can get your education under 20 or 40k PT can be a great field. Now I am not sure how common this is in the US but I wouldnt reccomend anyone spending 155k to get a DPT that is just insane so get your MPT and get it under 20k from a public school and things should be pretty good and you should be able to live a pretty comfortable life.

 

[bigdan]

I think this topic has run the course.

Doc - I agree with you; nevertheless, it is important to make sure folks know what they're getting into. And so the thread goes on....

OnPT: I gave an example based on numbers that anyone can get with the Google. APTA gives the salary stats, and I Googled "PT jobs in Binghamton NY" - 65K was the highest salary I could find. In a nursing home. Those jobs often come with 30 patients a day,billing the government with inventive interpretations of CPT and HCPC codes. These situations don't always make for the happiest work scenerios.

I - like Doc - am not trying to slight PT. Rehab is a great profession, and one where the therapist ABSOLUTELY gets to truly help people. But for those that have slogged thru the field (again, I'm an OT but did 3 years of management) it is important answer questions about pay that might be poorly understood. I know one PT making over 100K - he works two jobs and is his own boss in one of them. The most I ever worked for, including in management, was 59K. That is great money for a 4 year degree, in which I worked 45 - 50 hours a week and made HUGE impacts in LOTS of lives. But I never once thought of a six figure salary.

Simply put, the therapist that treats older folks will bill Medicare. Medicare will decide what therapists are paid. Without opening a separate argument, I consider it safe to say that our current government wishes to spend federal money in other ways besides increasing the income of healthcare professionals. And so it goes.

dc

 

[ONstudentPT]

Doc - I agree with you; nevertheless, it is important to make sure folks know what they're getting into. And so the thread goes on....

OnPT: I gave an example based on numbers that anyone can get with the Google. APTA gives the salary stats, and I Googled "PT jobs in Binghamton NY" - 65K was the highest salary I could find. In a nursing home. Those jobs often come with 30 patients a day,billing the government with inventive interpretations of CPT and HCPC codes. These situations don't always make for the happiest work scenerios.

I - like Doc - am not trying to slight PT. Rehab is a great profession, and one where the therapist ABSOLUTELY gets to truly help people. But for those that have slogged thru the field (again, I'm an OT but did 3 years of management) it is important answer questions about pay that might be poorly understood. I know one PT making over 100K - he works two jobs and is his own boss in one of them. The most I ever worked for, including in management, was 59K. That is great money for a 4 year degree, in which I worked 45 - 50 hours a week and made HUGE impacts in LOTS of lives. But I never once thought of a six figure salary.

Simply put, the therapist that treats older folks will bill Medicare. Medicare will decide what therapists are paid. Without opening a separate argument, I consider it safe to say that our current government wishes to spend federal money in other ways besides increasing the income of healthcare professionals. And so it goes.

dc

I think where we are running into problems with this discussion is that I dont quite understand the US system and it really blows me away why someone would get themselves in 155k debt to get a DPT because anyone that I will be graduating with will not have more than 18-20 of debt due to thier PT education.

Salary and income wise .. I can only speak from my personal knowledge from working PTs who infrom me of what is out there and from researching job offers and postings that will be available to me when I graduate.

I think when we google or get salary info from websites .. we should take that info with a grain of salt. There are so many factors that cannot be calculated into those estimates. For instance, getting accurate and reliable net income info for PTs who either work as independent contractors or own their ownbusiness would be very difficult which is clearly stated on the CPA website. Also there are many PTs who work part-time or work 2 part-time jobs which could also skew the numbers.

So the numbers I speak of are from primary sources ..PTs whom I know are working in the field. But again it may be difficult for me to relate to some US PTs cause there are probably aspects that are quite different between canada and the US.


here are some jobs postings i found in the US between 70k-100k :

http://www.apta.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Jobs1&Template=/JobBank/JobProfileForm.cfm&JobID=56299

http://www.apta.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Jobs1&Template=/JobBank/JobProfileForm.cfm&JobID=51515

http://www.apta.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Jobs1&Template=/JobBank/JobProfileForm.cfm&JobID=51380

 

[Beau Geste]

Are there any jobs that will allow a PT to pursue a DPT while working or signing a letter of intent to work for them?

 

[DocWagner]

Those are all traveling therapy jobs...in New Hampshire and Maine. I really don't think that is a cross sectional view.
Do you realize WHERE they may send you? Blech!

 

[ONstudentPT]

Those are all traveling therapy jobs...in New Hampshire and Maine. I really don't think that is a cross sectional view.
Do you realize WHERE they may send you? Blech!

The point was to illustrate that it is possible even in the US .. the physio I talked to and know are not traveling therapists.

 

[ONstudentPT]

Those are all traveling therapy jobs...in New Hampshire and Maine. I really don't think that is a cross sectional view.
Do you realize WHERE they may send you? Blech!

The point was to illustrate that it is possible in the US and not all of those were traveling therapists.. the physios I talked to and know where I live are not traveling therapists.

 

[Beau Geste]

Those are all traveling therapy jobs...in New Hampshire and Maine. I really don't think that is a cross sectional view.
Do you realize WHERE they may send you? Blech!

I worked "travel" therapy jobs as an SLP and I was able to be placed in my home area. I know the PTs I worked with for the same company were also from the area.

Nothing wrong with working for a "travel" company as long as you know the assignments are short-term and you will travel.

 

[bigdan]

On-

There is no doubt in my mind that someone in the USA can find a job for 80K in the USA. My point is that 1) most people are NOT making 80K. That's what the APTA salary survey says. 2) it is frequent that jobs paying a lot of money have some "catch" - maybe weird location, maybe want you to do shady billing, etc. But I will admit not all jobs are like that.

Your question about DPT is a great one, and I think is the same as Doc and I are asking. Why get a DPT and be so far in debt? Simply put, in many places in the USA, you HAVE to get a DPT. Got a family and want to stay in the Utica NY area? You can ONLY get a DPT from Utica College. No more bachelors offered, no more masters offered. So even though you can still treat patients with those degrees, they are simply no longer offered by my alma mater. No choice. There are some schools in the USA still offering MSPT, but many offer no option - it's DPT or nothing. So to become a PT, you buy into that long-term, relatively high debt scheme. The DPT push is one set up by the APTA/CAPTE.

Let's take a different case, because Utica College is an expensive private college. If we look at a public school, like Stony Brook in NY, the PT degree you'll leave with is a DPT. Assuming you go there for undergrad, you'll pay about 26K for four years, then about 57K for three years of PT education. So you graduate with around 83K of tuition debt (again, this leaves out any extra money for expenses like eating, gas, car insurance, housing). Again, taking the first Googled job, I found an ad for a PT in outpatient sports rehab for 60-70K/yr. Not bad. But an apartment on Long Island will run you around 1000K/mo. without utils, car insurance for my '99 Camry is 2100/yr. So before Uncle Sam takes his share to pay for more war, you're down 14K just to have a roof and some legal wheels.

You can do well as a PT, it's just not a get rich job. My OT buddy in Tenn. is getting 73K, and has no worries about where his next meal is coming from. The lifestyle is great. But school ain't cheap, and that debt check will be written for 15-30 years in order to have enough for the day to day expenses.

...okay Doc, you were right. This is dead.

dc

 

[ONstudentPT]

On-

There is no doubt in my mind that someone in the USA can find a job for 80K in the USA. My point is that 1) most people are NOT making 80K. That's what the APTA salary survey says. 2) it is frequent that jobs paying a lot of money have some "catch" - maybe weird location, maybe want you to do shady billing, etc. But I will admit not all jobs are like that.

Your question about DPT is a great one, and I think is the same as Doc and I are asking. Why get a DPT and be so far in debt? Simply put, in many places in the USA, you HAVE to get a DPT. Got a family and want to stay in the Utica NY area? You can ONLY get a DPT from Utica College. No more bachelors offered, no more masters offered. So even though you can still treat patients with those degrees, they are simply no longer offered by my alma mater. No choice. There are some schools in the USA still offering MSPT, but many offer no option - it's DPT or nothing. So to become a PT, you buy into that long-term, relatively high debt scheme. The DPT push is one set up by the APTA/CAPTE.

Let's take a different case, because Utica College is an expensive private college. If we look at a public school, like Stony Brook in NY, the PT degree you'll leave with is a DPT. Assuming you go there for undergrad, you'll pay about 26K for four years, then about 57K for three years of PT education. So you graduate with around 83K of tuition debt (again, this leaves out any extra money for expenses like eating, gas, car insurance, housing). Again, taking the first Googled job, I found an ad for a PT in outpatient sports rehab for 60-70K/yr. Not bad. But an apartment on Long Island will run you around 1000K/mo. without utils, car insurance for my '99 Camry is 2100/yr. So before Uncle Sam takes his share to pay for more war, you're down 14K just to have a roof and some legal wheels.

You can do well as a PT, it's just not a get rich job. My OT buddy in Tenn. is getting 73K, and has no worries about where his next meal is coming from. The lifestyle is great. But school ain't cheap, and that debt check will be written for 15-30 years in order to have enough for the day to day expenses.

...okay Doc, you were right. This is dead.

dc

I didnt quite realize how expensive education is in the US even in public schools. Thats unfortune for anyone who really would like to be a PT.

My point was that the potential was there to make a good living and live a comfortable life (at least for the PTs i know).

I understand that the PT field is not a get rich quick job most of the time... but then what is this elusive get rich quick and easy job...I would think you would have to work hard to be successful in any field you choose now a days unless you are born with some amazing luck.

A good and informative discussion guys.. I hope I was able to give a little bit of a different perspective.

Take care

 

[Buckeye4life]

I graduated from a private division III school in ohio and earned a MPT degree from the Ohio State University. I accrued about $75,000 in student loans, and have been practicing for about 2 years. I have held a staff therapist position in a private practice, working about 40-50 hours/week, and made about45k with benefits. Shortly after working as a therapist, I decided that I wanted to go back to medical school because that had been my dream since day 1 of undergrad (got off track). Since then, I have worked as a contract therapist, primarily in nursing homes, making about $27/hour with benefits, and have also been hired by two other contract agencies doing outpatient orthopedics and sports medicine. The first contract job paid $28/hour, and my current job pays about $1500/week with all the living, car, and per diem allowances given. If I worked 40 hours/week for 50 weeks/year I would make about $98,000.

I honestly am not passionate about therapy, and I believe my interests and abilities are probably best suited in another area of the medical field, which is why I decided early to go back to med school. I would not advise doing traveling contract work for very long because the sites you go to may have many situations that would not arise being a staff therapist. My own experience being having another therapist dropping evals on your lap at the drop of a hat heads-up because I could not not do other activities that a staff therapist could perform during "down-time," or having people blame the contractors for there being increased patient dissatisfaction with patient care. The funny thing in this case being that all the comment feedback cards only had positive remarks on the contractors slips. These are just a couple examples, but there are more. Besides private practice there are not many other ways you're going to hit 6 figures in PT, and the time you spend making that much money is equivalent to working 2 full time jobs (private practice of course).

All in all, this is a decision that is going to have to be made based on several factors. One big question that I would ask myself is "Do I wake up every morning and want to do what it is I am doing?" If you do not get fired up about the majority of what PT's do daily (granted every job has some areas that are no one wants to do) I would not enter this field, but that goes for any area of life. Most of the low back pain patients, which will make up a good deal of your patients in outpatient, usually are dissatisfied at work, having a higher rate of alcoholism and divorce, this info coming from an othopedic surgical textbook (Lange, ? on the pages). So in a few years do you want to be able to motivate and inspire your patients to improve their quality of life through your passion and example, or do you want to relate to their situation and give subpar care because you're so dissatisfied with your lot in life?

 

[fbplayr75]

Thanks for sharing your story.

I understand what you are saying about being passionate about rehab. I currently work in a rehab setting as a student athletic trainer and I can honeslty say not once have I dreaded going to work or having to work weekends.

Thats not to say that PT is going to be the same.

Here is my plan,

I go to PT school, get my DPT with under $50,000 in loans from the local state university.
I practice for a fews years like many of those have posted have previously stated and then IF I feel like it's time for change,
I plan to look into PA or MED school

 

[ONstudentPT]

Thanks for sharing your story.

I understand what you are saying about being passionate about rehab. I currently work in a rehab setting as a student athletic trainer and I can honeslty say not once have I dreaded going to work or having to work weekends.

Thats not to say that PT is going to be the same.

Here is my plan,

I go to PT school, get my DPT with under $50,000 in loans from the local state university.
I practice for a fews years like many of those have posted have previously stated and then IF I feel like it's time for change,
I plan to look into PA or MED school

sorry double post

 

[ONstudentPT]

Thanks for sharing your story.

I understand what you are saying about being passionate about rehab. I currently work in a rehab setting as a student athletic trainer and I can honeslty say not once have I dreaded going to work or having to work weekends.

Thats not to say that PT is going to be the same.

Here is my plan,

I go to PT school, get my DPT with under $50,000 in loans from the local state university.
I practice for a fews years like many of those have posted have previously stated and then IF I feel like it's time for change,
I plan to look into PA or MED school

Hey if you are able to get your education with under 50 grand of debt .. i say go for it.. . You can make decent living.. any where from 50 to over 100 grand depending on where you work and how hard and how much you want to work .. either way I think you can live a comfortable and good lifestyle doing something you enjoy... i doubt you will ever have to worry about starving.

Good luck

 

[DocWagner]

This was a post on another website today...

It shows the frustration many in PT today have; increasing debt, stagnant pay opportunities (besides travel PT in Vermont etc). I feel for this guy. He is contemplating the military. I had no less than 10 friends get shipped off to Iraq...

"I am a PT with one year of experience after receiving my DPT from a private institution.

I currently work in private practice orthopaedics, but am considering going into the government (VA or public health services) or military route to practice PT. I am considering this because I would enjoy the greater autonomy afforded to military PT's and I have over 120K in educational debt.

I have researched both routes and the government jobs offer a max of 40k in loan repayment, while I received an offer from the Army for up to 80k in loan repayment in the mail.

I would appreciate any comments or advice, especially from anyone with experiences to share practicing in either of these systems."


I would be student debt has increased by 300% in the past ten years. Makes me angry. This guy has about the same debt I have...and I make 4 times his salary. It shouldn't be like this...it is not a reimbursement problem, it is an APTA problem.

 

[Beau Geste]

It shouldn't be like this...it is not a reimbursement problem, it is an APTA problem.

This is not strictly a PT issue. Talk to many medical students who have undergrad debt PLUS $200K in medical student loans. Granted, some will go on to high-paying careers, but a significant amount will also go into primary care where avg. pay is around $120-150K depending on where you work.

Since most healthcare fields are moving toward advanced degrees, educational debt is going to be a major issue. With PT moving toward the DPT, SLPs have had to have a M.S. or M.A. for the past 20 years, and OTs are moving toward M.S./M.A. programs as well. In addition, CRNA, NP, and PA education is post-bachelors (or moving that way for PA).

As a previous poster mentioned before, a PT is not going to starve and if they manage their money well will be able to afford the loans. Another option would be to look into Ph.D. programs. Usually Ph.D. students are offered a stipend + tuition reimbursement.

It would be nice to have an advanced eduational tax credit, but there are already deductions when having a student loan. I don't have any loans, so I don't know how that works.

 

[DocWagner]

The rule of thumb is that your educational debt should not be greater than the average income for the field you are entering (in medicine).

You simply can't justify, by any stretch, being in 120k debt and making half that per year. Makes no sense.

See I am on the PT's side here...you should not have to justify that ridiculous debt. There is no justification. Don't rationalize it.

The active PT's need to write to ALL OF THEIR SCHOOLS and stop this inflation. It is a sham, simply for an extra letter in front of their name? Come on.

 

[ONstudentPT]

It does seem discouraging for any potential DPT students in the U.S. because of the huge amount of debt.

Its difficult for me to understand this because I will be able to get my MPT with less than 16k of debt. And also here you have much more freedom with private practise with complete direct access everywhere.

If I had to be in the kind of situation then some of these DPT students with the huge amounts of debt .. I would really have to think very hard about what I am doing. This could be potentially problamatic for the states because what if less students will want to get into Physiotherapy.. this could cause a shortage of PTs...

 

[truthseeker]

My undergraduate debt was $2500, my total debt after MS PT was 24K (at a private institution graduated in 1991) and the total cost of my tDPT was 6K, of which, my employer paid about 1/2. Granted I lived for free (grocery money) with my uncle during the MS PT portion but I really think that the very high debt loads are because some private schools are much higher than others, plus the room and board in some locations is much higher than others.

Move the market by going to public schools if possible. pressuring the APTA is also a good tactic but unfortunately, you will not convince the schools to lower their tuition if they are still filling their classes.

 

[bigdan]

Great discussion guys.

Truthseeker makes a great point - supply and demand wins. If there are enough folks that are willing to pay to become DPTs, there's no market influence for anything to change.

I don't agree with the APTA encouraging EVERYONE to shift to DPT. To me, that actually weakens the credibility of the "higher" PT degree. It might have worked out better if they left the option of getting a BSPT or MSPT. That'd leave you with the option to get a degree with less debt, and the DPTs would have more debt, but more clout - maybe DPT could be the mainline for directorships or something like that (stream of consciousness here).

Additionally, I would have liked to have seen the APTA do something with reimbursement. To me, that's the real killer of it all. Medicare will pay the same for ANYONE (including the PTA with his/her two year degree) to do ther ex or gait training. There's been no established effort to show that the service provider/education level has anything to do with the skill provided, and therefore, there's no need to reimburse differently. Granted, only PTs can do evals, but still there's no skill set separation between BS/MS/Doc PTs.
It's a tough path.

dc