BioMedical Engineering and Surgery

[Will Hunting]

So, I'm considering switching majors. The title of this thread obviously hints to what major. I'm considering doing it because I want to become a surgeon and hope to impact surgery by creating new instruments. So, I looked at bme at my school and immediately became enamored with the program. Is it worth doing bme if this is my goal? Or is it possible to be involved in the creation of new devices without doing engineering. I read all the time about doctors creating new tools. HOwever, they never mention whether the doctor has an engineering degree. Obviously you could work with engineers to design a specific device. I guess I'm wondering if it makes sense to do this. I was going to do bme when i came to college but my parents insisted on biochemistry. Thanks in advance. I did a thread search and read all of them but this concern was never addressed.

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[DeadorAlive]

You don't need a biomedical engineering degree to be involved in surgical instrument design, but if you're interested in the major, then go for it.

One program that might interest you: http://www.stanford.edu/group/biodesign/

You can check out some of the bios/backgrounds of people involved in biodesign via the link. I'm sure there are other programs, this one i just happen to know of.

 

[Kiroro]

Don't do it, stick with your current major.

I majored in Biomaterials Engineering for undegraduate and it's really not worth the effort. Although I got into med school this year but the amount of work I put in for my school work is much more than what a liberal arts majors had to.

I'm not sure which year you are in right now, but you should just stick with a non-engineering easier major and put more time and effort in reviewing for MCAT. After all numbers such as GPA and MCAT score is what would get you into a good med school, and that should be your current priority.

 

[Bluntman]

One of the sickest clinical experiences I've had was when my BME background allowed me to intelligently converse with an orthopedic surgeon in the OR about what types of stresses cause a given fracture pattern. It was kinda one of those "A ha!" moments that really made me appreciate the extra understanding of the physical world that an engineering degree gives you.

 

[rehanyazdani]

I work with an orthopaedic surgeon who has designed two instruments for orthopaedic surgery. These instruments are used throughout the US. He majored in Biology. I wouldn't switch majors and make your life harder.

 

[SirTony76]

I'd say switch to biomedical engineering just for the problem solving skills you learn in engineering. Doctors solve problems right?

 

[RxnMan]

Don't do it, stick with your current major.

I majored in Biomaterials Engineering for undegraduate and it's really not worth the effort. Although I got into med school this year but the amount of work I put in for my school work is much more than what a liberal arts majors had to.

I'm not sure which year you are in right now, but you should just stick with a non-engineering easier major and put more time and effort in reviewing for MCAT. After all numbers such as GPA and MCAT score is what would get you into a good med school, and that should be your current priority.

Sadly, this is true. I would go back and do some easy program if I could. Granted, I would probably not have the time-management skills I have now, nor my high MCAT, or my marketable skill set, but I would have a much, much easier time getting into med school because I'd look better on paper.

Surgeons don't need a engineering degree to make better tools. However, there are many engineers doing great things througout medicine. MEs in PM&R, ChemEs in Anesthesiology and pharmaceutacal testing in particular.

I'm not saying engineering does not help you in medicine. It's just harder to get into medicine with engineering because applicants generally have lower GPAs. But once in, I believe it provides a great skill set that complements the MD and allows you to benefit many people.

 

[rup47]

So, I'm considering switching majors. The title of this thread obviously hints to what major. I'm considering doing it because I want to become a surgeon and hope to impact surgery by creating new instruments. So, I looked at bme at my school and immediately became enamored with the program. Is it worth doing bme if this is my goal? Or is it possible to be involved in the creation of new devices without doing engineering. I read all the time about doctors creating new tools. HOwever, they never mention whether the doctor has an engineering degree. Obviously you could work with engineers to design a specific device. I guess I'm wondering if it makes sense to do this. I was going to do bme when i came to college but my parents insisted on biochemistry. Thanks in advance. I did a thread search and read all of them but this concern was never addressed.

As a recent graduate of biomedical engineering, I would say only choose this major if you truly believe you will enjoy it more than your current major. I believe it easier to get into medical school from different backgrounds because engineering already requires a decent number of challenging courses without adding on pre-med prereqs. Many surgeons help design surgical tools without an engineering background. Unless you really want to be involved in the engineering process of making/producing the tool, you will not be utilizing the engineering degree much anyway.

 

[uvce]

As a recent graduate of biomedical engineering, I would say only choose this major if you truly believe you will enjoy it more than your current major. I believe it easier to get into medical school from different backgrounds because engineering already requires a decent number of challenging courses without adding on pre-med prereqs. Many surgeons help design surgical tools without an engineering background. Unless you really want to be involved in the engineering process of making/producing the tool, you will not be utilizing the engineering degree much anyway.

Yep, finishing all my engg requirements in four years and still manage to take the med school pre-reqs is a major challenge for me. My friends with other majors seem to be able to spend a semester or even a year abroad with no problem. I wasn't really sure that I wanted to be a doctor when I started college, so I don't regret it. But I still think that an engineering background will be a big plus in med school - many people have said that it is a breeze compared to undergrad!

 

[Will Hunting]

Yep, finishing all my engg requirements in four years and still manage to take the med school pre-reqs is a major challenge for me. My friends with other majors seem to be able to spend a semester or even a year abroad with no problem. I wasn't really sure that I wanted to be a doctor when I started college, so I don't regret it. But I still think that an engineering background will be a big plus in med school - many people have said that it is a breeze compared to undergrad!

thanks for all the responses. I'm going to do it. I'm a sophomore for the person who asked.

 

[StevenRF]

I doubled in biochem and bme, and I also hope to do surgery. I'm kinda in the same boat and about to start med school in the fall. Also, my parents said I should do biochem because my dad talked to a surgeon and that's what he did. Go figure.

So then what should you do?
The simple fact is that med schools don't care what you major in. A com degree in broadcast journalism will have the same weight as a physics degree with a thesis in string theory. Actually the com might be better since dr.'s are viewed as socially inept, but anyway it sucks, and so does life. So if you do BME over biochem, you're probably going to put in twice the work for no direct benefit. In fact, it might even hurt you. You'll have less time to pad your application with EC's, and your grades might suffer.

That being said, suppose you take the easier route and do biochem. You get your 3.9, your high MCAT, shadowing, clubs, etc. That's still no guarantee you'll get in to med school. My EE friend got a 3.95, 37, started a biotech company with some seed money he won at his school's business competition, and he got rejected or waitlisted EVERYWHERE he applied. Hell, I did well too and only got one acceptance. Another one of my friends with a relatively perfect app only got into one school as well.

Moral of the story
You can spend your 4 years trying to craft this perfect application as my friends and I all did, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. You could probably throw darts blindfolded with the same odds. Major in whatever you will enjoy. If you like BME more, I'd say go for it. Or you could just do both like I did.

A possible better option would be to create your own degree. Most schools have this and are pretty liberal about it. That way you could pick all the classes that you think would benefit your goal and avoid waisting time with the rest.

 

[Will Hunting]

I doubled in biochem and bme, and I also hope to do surgery. I'm kinda in the same boat and about to start med school in the fall. Also, my parents said I should do biochem because my dad talked to a surgeon and that's what he did. Go figure.

So then what should you do?
The simple fact is that med schools don't care what you major in. A com degree in broadcast journalism will have the same weight as a physics degree with a thesis in string theory. Actually the com might be better since dr.'s are viewed as socially inept, but anyway it sucks, and so does life. So if you do BME over biochem, you're probably going to put in twice the work for no direct benefit. In fact, it might even hurt you. You'll have less time to pad your application with EC's, and your grades might suffer.

That being said, suppose you take the easier route and do biochem. You get your 3.9, your high MCAT, shadowing, clubs, etc. That's still no guarantee you'll get in to med school. My EE friend got a 3.95, 37, started a biotech company with some seed money he won at his school's business competition, and he got rejected or waitlisted EVERYWHERE he applied. Hell, I did well too and only got one acceptance. Another one of my friends with a relatively perfect app only got into one school as well.

Moral of the story
You can spend your 4 years trying to craft this perfect application as my friends and I all did, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. You could probably throw darts blindfolded with the same odds. Major in whatever you will enjoy. If you like BME more, I'd say go for it. Or you could just do both like I did.

A possible better option would be to create your own degree. Most schools have this and are pretty liberal about it. That way you could pick all the classes that you think would benefit your goal and avoid waisting time with the rest.

great post. thanks, uncanny how my situation mirrored yours.

 

[lundysd]

I'll be graduating from BME in May and continuing in BME via MD/Phd, and like you my interests are in surgery or a procedure-based clinical field like interventional cardiology.

BME as an undergraduate is a double-edged sword. Like most engineering disciplines, it's pretty time-intensive and grade-killing (getting a 3.5 in BME is a solid gpa). If you want a surefire acceptance to medical school, then stick to your major, because BME can be dangerous in that regard. If, however, you think you'd be passionate about it, then switch. I'm a firm believer in studying what you love, and for me it's BME. I ended up doing better in my BME classes than in my bio pre-med classes simply because the material was more stimulating (although I also busted my butt doing it).

As far as future careers, I know bio people who are very successful in surgical insturment design (more than 20 patents). This brilliant physician in particular has the ability to see a problem and dream up a really cool solution, but even he will tell you he doesn't know the engineering side of it. I think engineering helps you to approach problems in a different way, and as a result it's often easier to solve those problems. Is it impossible either way? Of course not.

 

[SirTony76]

I'll be graduating from BME in May and continuing in BME via MD/Phd, and like you my interests are in surgery or a procedure-based clinical field like interventional cardiology.

BME as an undergraduate is a double-edged sword. Like most engineering disciplines, it's pretty time-intensive and grade-killing (getting a 3.5 in BME is a solid gpa). If you want a surefire acceptance to medical school, then stick to your major, because BME can be dangerous in that regard. If, however, you think you'd be passionate about it, then switch. I'm a firm believer in studying what you love, and for me it's BME. I ended up doing better in my BME classes than in my bio pre-med classes simply because the material was more stimulating (although I also busted my butt doing it).

As far as future careers, I know bio people who are very successful in surgical insturment design (more than 20 patents). This brilliant physician in particular has the ability to see a problem and dream up a really cool solution, but even he will tell you he doesn't know the engineering side of it. I think engineering helps you to approach problems in a different way, and as a result it's often easier to solve those problems. Is it impossible either way? Of course not.

I want to take a similar route--MD/PhD in Biomedical Engineering. If you don't mind--what kind of things did you have in your app to get you acceptance into an MD/PhD program?

TP

 

[StevenRF]

great post. thanks, uncanny how my situation mirrored yours.

No problem. I was pondering after writing my other post what I would do if I could do it all over again.

I would probably have just majored in BME and not biochem. Why? Because the biochem classes were mostly unecessary to learn the biochem. Many of the classes are lecture only without homework. You go into class and listen to the prof lecture on a condensed amount of material from book and that's it. There is no real tangible benefit. The classes are just repetative pump and dumps. It would be easier, and cheaper, to take the teacher out of the equation. I would have just bought the textbooks and taught myself. I would only take those classes that are lab intensive since you gain the access to the equipment.

Actually I just realized how coincidental my post was since your screen name is will hunting. Now that I think of it, I wish I could have done what he did in the movie. So much of undergrad was worthless b.s. For the 160k it costed for undergrad, I could have spent like 10-20k on books and the rest on equipment and built my own mini lab. Go figure. That would be nice... my own lab instead of indentured servitude.

 

[thesauce]

But I still think that an engineering background will be a big plus in med school - many people have said that it is a breeze compared to undergrad!

It's true! I majored in Chemical Engineering and now that I'm in med school, I have more free time than I know what to do with.

 

[GAdoc]

I'll be graduating from BME in May and continuing in BME via MD/Phd, and like you my interests are in surgery or a procedure-based clinical field like interventional cardiology.

BME as an undergraduate is a double-edged sword. Like most engineering disciplines, it's pretty time-intensive and grade-killing (getting a 3.5 in BME is a solid gpa). If you want a surefire acceptance to medical school, then stick to your major, because BME can be dangerous in that regard. If, however, you think you'd be passionate about it, then switch. I'm a firm believer in studying what you love, and for me it's BME. I ended up doing better in my BME classes than in my bio pre-med classes simply because the material was more stimulating (although I also busted my butt doing it).

As far as future careers, I know bio people who are very successful in surgical insturment design (more than 20 patents). This brilliant physician in particular has the ability to see a problem and dream up a really cool solution, but even he will tell you he doesn't know the engineering side of it. I think engineering helps you to approach problems in a different way, and as a result it's often easier to solve those problems. Is it impossible either way? Of course not.

I'd take this advice. I chose BME because my undergrad. school had a program where we could apply for and possibly be accepted to medical school after the sophomore year (of course we'd finish our undergrad. but it would take the pressure off). Unfortunately, my schoo'ls medical school requires admission compliance and lots of poor students who chose BME were not mission complient (i.e. they were from out of state). I figured such a demanding major would make me a shoe-in for medical school. HA! Med schools I learned don't care much about your undergrad major. My impressive degree didn't impress them. And lundysd is right, a 3.5 is SOLID for BME. I had a 3.57 and didn't turn many heads even though I KNEW it was more work than a lot of my Chem and Biom major buddies. I mean, you'll be hitting up courses like Thermodynamics, Fluid Mechanics, Heat Transfer. We're talking serious differential equations, multivariable calc., etc. And how is this going to help you in med school? Not at all. In fact, your lack of wiggle room as far as electives will keep you from some courses that really could help you. The only extra science I was able to take was Biochem and I had to BEG my advisor for that. Having so few pure science courses and so MANY time-consuming engineering courses meant an MCAT that didn't turn many heads either. If you're going to apply early decision, you just about can't do engineering. You'll have to take the April MCAT which means you'll be studying during one of your most difficult semesters.

ON THE OTHER HAND....I had one of those legendary professors everyone loves to tell storied about. The guy must be ADD only with the brain power to back it up. He's got his PhD in Biomedical Engineering from the University of Florida (He was accepted to MIT but didn't want to leave his family). While working on his last two years of PhD research he was in medical school at University of Miami. He was one of two in his class to get orthopaedic surgery. He received additional training in total hip, knee, and ankle replacement and consequently decided to add a Doctor of Podiatric Medicine to his already rediculous resume. Tell HIM there's no connection between being a surgeon an being an engineer. This guy will take CT Scans of his patients joints, import the file into ANSYS (an advanced software package for solid modeling), and create an artificial joint specific to that patient. He holds a patent on a new ankle replacement and has turned down a 2 million dollar offer on it so far.

Good luck in your decision

 

[Will Hunting]

I'd take this advice. I chose BME because my undergrad. school had a program where we could apply for and possibly be accepted to medical school after the sophomore year (of course we'd finish our undergrad. but it would take the pressure off). Unfortunately, my schoo'ls medical school requires admission compliance and lots of poor students who chose BME were not mission complient (i.e. they were from out of state). I figured such a demanding major would make me a shoe-in for medical school. HA! Med schools I learned don't care much about your undergrad major. My impressive degree didn't impress them. And lundysd is right, a 3.5 is SOLID for BME. I had a 3.57 and didn't turn many heads even though I KNEW it was more work than a lot of my Chem and Biom major buddies. I mean, you'll be hitting up courses like Thermodynamics, Fluid Mechanics, Heat Transfer. We're talking serious differential equations, multivariable calc., etc. And how is this going to help you in med school? Not at all. In fact, your lack of wiggle room as far as electives will keep you from some courses that really could help you. The only extra science I was able to take was Biochem and I had to BEG my advisor for that. Having so few pure science courses and so MANY time-consuming engineering courses meant an MCAT that didn't turn many heads either. If you're going to apply early decision, you just about can't do engineering. You'll have to take the April MCAT which means you'll be studying during one of your most difficult semesters.

ON THE OTHER HAND....I had one of those legendary professors everyone loves to tell storied about. The guy must be ADD only with the brain power to back it up. He's got his PhD in Biomedical Engineering from the University of Florida (He was accepted to MIT but didn't want to leave his family). While working on his last two years of PhD research he was in medical school at University of Miami. He was one of two in his class to get orthopaedic surgery. He received additional training in total hip, knee, and ankle replacement and consequently decided to add a Doctor of Podiatric Medicine to his already rediculous resume. Tell HIM there's no connection between being a surgeon an being an engineer. This guy will take CT Scans of his patients joints, import the file into ANSYS (an advanced software package for solid modeling), and create an artificial joint specific to that patient. He holds a patent on a new ankle replacement and has turned down a 2 million dollar offer on it so far.

Good luck in your decision

thanks for all the replies. I never imagined this much feedback. Although it will be tough, I'm going to go ahead and do bme. My gpa is a 4.0 right now and I'm sure it will drop but hopefully not too much. I'm up for the challenge. I love math and I'm nerdy enough to trick myself into thinking a class like thermo or fluid mechanics is fun because of the use of diffeq. thanks again.

 

[OwnageMobile]

I ended up doing better in my BME classes than in my bio pre-med classes simply because the material was more stimulating (although I also busted my butt doing it).

I did mechanical engineering and totally agree with this statement (Although my grades were slightly better in bio). Engineering is no joke. I recall, shadowing a neonatologist at loma linda, a conversation I had with an MD/PhD student who had majored in engineering. He told me [refering to med school and my degree] "at least you will be used to the work load."

My advice is that you honestly question your ability with the type of work and amount of work put into an engineering degree. It will be hell if you don't enjoy that kind of thing.


Edit: Furthermore, I was personally dissapointed with what I got out of the degree (maybe with what I didn't get out of the degree) I question whether or not it will truly make you any better of a designer.

 

[rup47]

ON THE OTHER HAND....I had one of those legendary professors everyone loves to tell storied about. The guy must be ADD only with the brain power to back it up. He's got his PhD in Biomedical Engineering from the University of Florida (He was accepted to MIT but didn't want to leave his family). While working on his last two years of PhD research he was in medical school at University of Miami. He was one of two in his class to get orthopaedic surgery. He received additional training in total hip, knee, and ankle replacement and consequently decided to add a Doctor of Podiatric Medicine to his already rediculous resume. Tell HIM there's no connection between being a surgeon an being an engineer. This guy will take CT Scans of his patients joints, import the file into ANSYS (an advanced software package for solid modeling), and create an artificial joint specific to that patient. He holds a patent on a new ankle replacement and has turned down a 2 million dollar offer on it so far.

Good luck in your decision

I think that engineering could definitely provide opportunities to do really amazing thing such as the guy described above. However, with just a BS in bme, the benefit of having the engineering degree is limitted. If you plan to pursue a MD/PHd with the pHd in biomed engineering then I think getting the BS in bme would be advisable. And again if you like the engineering material go for anyway even if you do not pursue a MD/pHd. I think medschools like to see that you pursued a major that interested/challenged you as an undergrad.

 

[Gonzo12164]

I doubled in biochem and bme, and I also hope to do surgery. I'm kinda in the same boat and about to start med school in the fall. Also, my parents said I should do biochem because my dad talked to a surgeon and that's what he did. Go figure.

So then what should you do?
The simple fact is that med schools don't care what you major in. A com degree in broadcast journalism will have the same weight as a physics degree with a thesis in string theory. Actually the com might be better since dr.'s are viewed as socially inept, but anyway it sucks, and so does life. So if you do BME over biochem, you're probably going to put in twice the work for no direct benefit. In fact, it might even hurt you. You'll have less time to pad your application with EC's, and your grades might suffer.

That being said, suppose you take the easier route and do biochem. You get your 3.9, your high MCAT, shadowing, clubs, etc. That's still no guarantee you'll get in to med school. My EE friend got a 3.95, 37, started a biotech company with some seed money he won at his school's business competition, and he got rejected or waitlisted EVERYWHERE he applied. Hell, I did well too and only got one acceptance. Another one of my friends with a relatively perfect app only got into one school as well.

Moral of the story
You can spend your 4 years trying to craft this perfect application as my friends and I all did, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. You could probably throw darts blindfolded with the same odds. Major in whatever you will enjoy. If you like BME more, I'd say go for it. Or you could just do both like I did.

A possible better option would be to create your own degree. Most schools have this and are pretty liberal about it. That way you could pick all the classes that you think would benefit your goal and avoid waisting time with the rest.

Just curious, with those scores, which schools did you both apply to? Those numbers are insane and to be rejected EVERYONE????

 

[Gonzo12164]

I just started a thred, but to those engineers who got into medical school, how were you able to finish your prereqs while getting your engineering degree? I had to take most of my prereqs at a local Community College since I could not afford another $5k. Thanks!

 

[Edivocke]

I wouldn't do it.

I was biomedical engineering for two years, and I learned that what I was learning (engineering, physics, advanced math)...had really nothing to do with advancing me in medicine. I switched to biochemistry and I'm glad I made the choice.

 

[disque71]

save your gpa and stay out of bme. trust me as a junior in coe/premed.

 

[Gonzo12164]

I'd say do what YOU like and not what the typical premeds do. If you really enjoy learning the bioengineering stuff then go for it! If you're not sure, take an intro to BME or something along those lines. If you really enjoy the BME classes then switch. Same goes with all the usual EC's that premeds do. Just get involved with activities that you inherently love to do. I was an EE and wished I went into BME, but my school did not have the major till I was a 3rd year. Yea it's rough being an engineer, but if you enjoy sitting in class "usually" you'll do well or at least push yourself to do your best. Also, it's totally different thinking from an engineering perspective than from a someone with a bio background.

 

[StevenRF]

Just curious, with those scores, which schools did you both apply to? Those numbers are insane and to be rejected EVERYONE????

My friend was a cali resident wth ties to Nv. Applied to all the cali schools, reno, and some random places around the country. I think like 15-20 places. Its not to bad though. He got an Ibanking job for a year already. I was in a similar situation... cali schools, reno, then some other schools top MBA programs.

 

[Will Hunting]

My friend was a cali resident wth ties to Nv. Applied to all the cali schools, reno, and some random places around the country. I think like 15-20 places. Its not to bad though. He got an Ibanking job for a year already. I was in a similar situation... cali schools, reno, then some other schools top MBA programs.

I greatly appreciate all the replys. I love math and science so bme is the perfect major. I'm going for it, atleast for one semester and will see how it goes.

 

[Gonzo12164]

I greatly appreciate all the replys. I love math and science so bme is the perfect major. I'm going for it, atleast for one semester and will see how it goes.

Good for you! I'd say since you have the opportunity now you might as well figure out what you enjoy. I'm currently taking two years off after my BS to finish my my prereqs, but mainly to figure out what I want in life. Good luck!

 

[TacoStand]

I greatly appreciate all the replys. I love math and science so bme is the perfect major. I'm going for it, atleast for one semester and will see how it goes.

I think you made a good choice. You will definitely learn how to think in bme. I was an ME major and have 8 years engineering experience. After med school, I hope to use my engineering experience in some form or fashion, but definitely not full-time.

I do not know if it is true, but I've had several ER docs tell me that their classmates who were engineering majors in undergrad seemed to have an easier time in med school. Hope that's true.

Good luck....

 

[oldman]

i didn't think my ugrad biomedical engineering degree was enough to function as one in the workforce, but with that background i can certainly get an advanced degree during residency.

btw, i will be going into surgery.