Bizarre Reaction to Spinal (OB)

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Anothing thing I discussed with my attendings. No air was in the spinal dose
That's not how it works and it's not the bubbles in your spinal dose that I am referring to.
You placed a large Tuohy in the epidural space opening it to air, and you probably injected air for LOR, then you created a passage into the intrathecal space with the spinal needle or maybe the tip of your Tuhoy was already intrathecal, now you got a big intrathecal bubble that travels all the way to the brain causing seizures and other badness.I have seen this scenario with CSE before.

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The Duramorph is good for 24 hr pain relief. The fentanyl is highly lipid soluble so the intrathecal effect isn't long lasting. I'd argue, the anesthesia they get from the mixture is 99% bupivacaine at that point and the benefit of the fentanyl is nil. To try it out, do your next c-section with bupivacaine alone and see if there is any difference (spoiler alert: there isn't).

now, if you're putting in a catheter and running a post operative EPCA a day or two that's another story.
 
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Yes CSE in non academics for a c-section?! You shouldn't need to do that even if 2 hrs. IMHO spinal is superior for c-section and if it took so long that the spinal wore off you can always wing it for the last remaining part (Propofol/ketamine/benadryl etc etc)

I'd prefer not to "wing it"
 
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That's not how it works and it's not the bubbles in your spinal dose that I am referring to.
You placed a large Tuohy in the epidural space opening it to air, and you probably injected air for LOR, then you created a passage into the intrathecal space with the spinal needle or maybe the tip of your Tuhoy was already intrathecal, now you got a big intrathecal bubble that travels all the way to the brain causing seizures and other badness.I have seen this scenario with CSE before.

I see what you're saying. I am/was extremely confident on the procedure, though I guess it's still possible. However, the CTH was negative if it were a sizable amount (not sure how much air it takes) it would have shown up
 
That's not how it works and it's not the bubbles in your spinal dose that I am referring to.
You placed a large Tuohy in the epidural space opening it to air, and you probably injected air for LOR, then you created a passage into the intrathecal space with the spinal needle or maybe the tip of your Tuhoy was already intrathecal, now you got a big intrathecal bubble that travels all the way to the brain causing seizures and other badness.I have seen this scenario with CSE before.
Wouldn't the air show up on the CT scan?

Back in the good old days before Ct scans the radiologists used to purposefully inject air via spinals to do plain head x rays. They all had a massive headache but I don't think they seized.

Pneumoencephalography (sometimes abbreviated PEG; also referred to as an "air study") was a common medical procedure in which most of the cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) was drained from around the brain by means of a lumbar puncture and replaced with air, oxygen, or helium to allow the structure of the brain to show up more clearly on an X-ray image. It was derived from ventriculography, an earlier and more primitive method where the air is injected through holes drilled in the skull.

Pneumoencephalography was associated with a wide range of side-effects, including headaches and severe vomiting, often lasting well past the procedure.[

Pneumoencephalography - Wikipedia
 
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^^^^ yes

One of the things the neurosurgeon and I discussed
 
Yep I've attended 2 such M+M's at 2 different institutions. Both patients did fine.
The 1 patient I heard got a whole vial of neo didn't make it.
 
I then give 5 cc 2% lidocaine through the epidural catheter. Shortly thereafter patient begins complaining of terrible HA, begins vomiting, and blood pressure is 250/120. I then notice her HR slowly begins to drop from 100's to 80's to 60's to 40's than goes asystolic from what I'm assuming was a vagal/baroreceptor reflex from the elevated BP. Patient begins convulsing from lack of cerebral blood flow. About 5-10 seconds later patient regains consciousness,?
I have several issues with the above:

1 Why are you dosing the epidural already when you have just given a medium dose of spinal local which should be good for a good while?

2 How can you say she convulsed from lack of blood flow if you didn't measure the blood flow at any point?

3 Do people tend to seize from asystole?

I'm rather simplistic. I would say your patient had a big conversion reaction after the CSE. You were correct in doing a neuro workup because nobody will believe you if you ever said that.
 
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Psychogenic Nonepileptic Seizures: Background, Pathophysiology, Etiology

Psychogenic nonepileptic seizures (PNES), or pseudoseizures are paroxysmal episodes that resemble and are often misdiagnosed as epileptic seizures; however, PNES are psychological (i.e., emotional, stress-related) in origin.

By definition, PNES is a psychiatric disorder; more specifically it is a conversion disorder, which falls under the diagnostic category of somatic symptom disorders in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition (DSM-5).
 
Wouldn't the air show up on the CT scan?

Back in the good old days before Ct scans the radiologists used to purposefully inject air via spinals to do plain head x rays. They all had a massive headache but I don't think they seized.



Pneumoencephalography - Wikipedia
I missed the part where he mentioned CT scan, Yes it would show on CT.
As for seizures in the presence of pneumocephalus, there are many case reports of seizures after dural puncture with radiological evidence of air in the ventricles. I actually have seen it twice.
As for radiologists injecting gas to enhance the brain in the old days, you are right they did, and severe headache was a well-documented result, but maybe seizures were not observed because they only injected 30-40 ml?
 
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Hey gents, so I had a bizarre reaction during one of my cases the other day. Called a few people back at the program and nobody had ever heard of anything like this before.

G1P0 presents for scheduled primary CS 2/2 CPD. No PMH, no issues with pregnancy. Perform CSE, small 81kg about 5'6 tall, procedure goes without any issues don't even have to redirect tuohy. Gertie marx needle goes through perfectly, CSF comes back, give 11.25mg 0.75% hyperbaric bupivicaine with 10mcg of fentanyl. Thread catheter, no heme/CSF ect ect.

After taping catheter in place, I notice she has more motor than i am typically accustomed to. I check levels, nothing other than "her feet feeling tingly". I then give 5 cc 2% lidocaine through the epidural catheter. Shortly thereafter patient begins complaining of terrible HA, begins vomiting, and blood pressure is 250/120. I then notice her HR slowly begins to drop from 100's to 80's to 60's to 40's than goes asystolic from what I'm assuming was a vagal/baroreceptor reflex from the elevated BP. Patient begins convulsing from lack of cerebral blood flow. About 5-10 seconds later patient regains consciousness, is A&O x 3, but still complaining of severe HA. We check FHT's which are then depressed so we go to sleep for crash CS. Before going to sleep I checked repeatedly for adequate hand strength which was intact/strong, even though I knew high spinal was unlikely. I even rechecked catheter for CSF/heme throughout the case, nothing.

Baby is delivered, APGAR 8 and 9. I wake mom up and she complains of absolutely NOTHING, no N/V, not even a mild HA. She has T4 levels and is perfectly comfortable in PACU. I get a stat non contrast CTH, everything is normal. Check patient again next day, absolutely nothing wrong.

Anyone have a similar case?

Was she a nervous Nelly kind of patient?
 
Was she a nervous Nelly kind of patient?

No she was actually normal and cooperative. I'm telling you guys, there was no penetration of the dura. Easy as pie. No pneumocephalus
 
I thought you did a CSE ;)

Regardless, **** happens. If you rule the usual stuff, then it's a question of how weird it is. I'd still want that MRI to see what's going on where you injected.

What was the uterine tone like? Any pathology on the fetal or cord side?
 
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Uterine tone was good, not sure about the cord
 
That one is a killer. Literally. I am not sure one could recover the patient from that mistake.
I did. Had an ob nurse give 5mg of neo. For a hypotensive patient. Iv nitroglycerin helped the situation. We got mom and baby back safetly. Nurses could no longer giver pressors on l and d anymore.
 
What about a possible epi/bupivicaine swap. What if you gave the full miligram of epi intrathecally could cause hypertension as well as massive cerebral vasoconstriction resulting in increased icp causing reflex bradycardia eventually to asystole.
 
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The Duramorph is good for 24 hr pain relief. The fentanyl is highly lipid soluble so the intrathecal effect isn't long lasting. I'd argue, the anesthesia they get from the mixture is 99% bupivacaine at that point and the benefit of the fentanyl is nil. To try it out, do your next c-section with bupivacaine alone and see if there is any difference (spoiler alert: there isn't).

now, if you're putting in a catheter and running a post operative EPCA a day or two that's another story.

The greatest benefit (IMO) to adding fentanyl to a spinal for c-section is that it allows you to cheat a bit and get away with less local. This is useful in that it shortens PACU time.

I found it to be necessary when the OBs are fast and have 5 booked before noon, and a thinly staffed PACU can become a bottleneck if everyone has dense spinals that last longer than the surgery.

If you're putting in 1.6 - 2.0 mL of 0.75% bupivacaine in every spinal then the fentanyl probably isn't super useful.
 
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The greatest benefit (IMO) to adding fentanyl to a spinal for c-section is that it allows you to cheat a bit and get away with less local. This is useful in that it shortens PACU time.

I found it to be necessary when the OBs are fast and have 5 booked before noon, and a thinly staffed PACU can become a bottleneck if everyone has dense spinals that last longer than the surgery.

If you're putting in 1.6 - 2.0 mL of 0.75% bupivacaine in every spinal then the fentanyl probably isn't super useful.

yeah. that's true. we don't have a crazy OB OR service like that, which is good for my sanity but bad for my checking acct, but I"m ok with that. but again, good tidbit to know for those new guys working super busy services
 
I did. Had an ob nurse give 5mg of neo. For a hypotensive patient. Iv nitroglycerin helped the situation. We got mom and baby back safetly. Nurses could no longer giver pressors on l and d anymore.

and it's those mistakes the ruin our on call lives because now we're getting called every hour for low bPs
 
too many people looking for zebras. sure the rare stuff are possible but most likely gave undiluted phenylephrine instead of glyco; the vials are same size and labels aren't that different. maybe pharmacy accidentally put a glyco vial in the neo slot.

also probably not gonna convince acidbase otherwise but cse for routine C-section too much work. our pp OBs are dog slow too and single-shot spinal sufficient 99% of the time. but not criticizing, you do what you think is the right thing for your pts.
 
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too many people looking for zebras. sure the rare stuff are possible but most likely gave undiluted phenylephrine instead of glyco; the vials are same size and labels aren't that different. maybe pharmacy accidentally put a glyco vial in the neo slot.

also probably not gonna convince acidbase otherwise but cse for routine C-section too much work. our pp OBs are dog slow too and single-shot spinal sufficient 99% of the time. but not criticizing, you do what you think is the right thing for your pts.

But i'm guessing at his institution he had pre made phenylephrine syringes
 
I would guess one of the drugs wasn't what you thought it was. That's the most likely explanation.
I'm ultra vigilant about drugs when I draw them up as peds usually has narrower safety margins, long liability, easy to make a 10x error, and I often hear about drug swaps here and at work with what I consider alarming frequency.
I also often don't use drugs others have drawn up when I'm getting them out for a break.
Recently there was a patient of a colleague that had a patient go suspiciously still after a reversal dose of neostigmine. It resolved after ~30 min. :(
Something bumped the pressure up, way way up. It wasn't 15 Mcg of epi, or anxiety, or lido.


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Il Destriero
 
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My routine spinal is 1.4-1.6cc, 50mcg epi, 20 fent, .15 morphine.
We have some complicated patients who had fetal surgery, etc. it's good for 2 hours. But, at 90 min I start tapping my watch.
Less talkey talkey more sewey sewey.
I haven't done a CSE in a decade, or more.


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Il Destriero
 
L3/L4. I did Neuro exam after spinal wore off, everything intact. What abnormality of the L spine could cause something like this?

The first thing I thought was an epi/bupi drug error also. That or a conversion reaction as mentioned. Another possibility is a small foreign body, a small piece of glass, rubber if you drew out of a bottle, piece of gauze for whatever reason, into CSF and into brain to cause seizure. If it were an epi/bupi drug error though you would think you would find the bottle of epi empty somewhere, that should have no reason to be empty.
 
I don't see how some tiny foreign body would cause a seizure or hypertension. They put grids in people's brains, suture, glue, stimulators, gel foam, etc.


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Il Destriero

I would also consider some bizarre cause for autonomic dysreflexia. Maybe some smart neurologist could create a zebra differential.
MS, coke?, ???.


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Il Destriero
 
most likely gave undiluted phenylephrine instead of glyco; the vials are same size and labels aren't that different. maybe pharmacy accidentally put a glyco vial in the neo slot.

Glyco and neo don't look the same where I'm at. Not sure about OP's institution.

Why do you say he gave glyco before the event? I didn't see that anywhere.
 
I tend to favor a big neo dose as the answer. I know the OP says it didn't happen but guess what? If the patient had an IV and your hospital has neo then could have happened. I don't care what else was going on. That is way more likely than some stupid zebra unicorn hybrid.
 
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Glyco and neo don't look the same where I'm at. Not sure about OP's institution.

Why do you say he gave glyco before the event? I didn't see that anywhere.

Post #18: "I didn't give anything IV except glycopyrolate (regarding phenylephrine)"
 
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What about a possible epi/bupivicaine swap. What if you gave the full miligram of epi intrathecally could cause hypertension as well as massive cerebral vasoconstriction resulting in increased icp causing reflex bradycardia eventually to asystole.
This is it. You beat me to it.
I read a case somewhere a few years ago where an anesthesiologist let the crna place the spinal and the epi was swapped for the marcaine. We worked through possible outcomes as the cSe had just happened and he was wondering if a spinal catheter with NS running for a day would be beneficial. Not sure if this was on this site or another site.
 
This is it. You beat me to it.
I read a case somewhere a few years ago where an anesthesiologist let the crna place the spinal and the epi was swapped for the marcaine. We worked through possible outcomes as the cSe had just happened and he was wondering if a spinal catheter with NS running for a day would be beneficial. Not sure if this was on this site or another site.

Doubtful. 1.6 ml was given whereas there is only a ml in the epi vial.
 
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I tend to favor a big neo dose as the answer. I know the OP says it didn't happen but guess what? If the patient had an IV and your hospital has neo then could have happened. I don't care what else was going on. That is way more likely than some stupid zebra unicorn hybrid.

I'm telling you, she never got hypotensive so there was no reason to give neo. And why the convulsions? Glyco and neo vials look nothing alike.

Also, it wasn't a seizure bc the patient wasn't postictal
 
I'm telling you, she never got hypotensive so there was no reason to give neo. And why the convulsions? Glyco and neo vials look nothing alike.

Also, it wasn't a seizure bc the patient wasn't postictal
That's all these guys know, drug errors.

Abraham Maslow. Maslow's hammer, popularly phrased as "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" and variants thereof, is from Abraham Maslow's The Psychology of Science, published in 1966.
 
Have seen real BP 350/150 for ~60 seconds from likely drug swap. Pt lived. Likely developed a self-limited myocardial stunning. Would imagine 10mg of phenylephrine would do the same.
 
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