Blind student earns M.D.!

[Sundarban1]

If he can do it...but how did he take the MCAT

http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/04/02/seeing.no.limits.ap/index.html

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[beep]

using braille (probably) or with the questions read to him and figures described.

 

[Sparky Man]

wow, that's pretty inspiring. what an amazing guy!

 

[fpr85]

wow, that's incredible and very inspiring.

 

[javert]

The MD/PhD Director at Wisconsin talked quite candidly about this when I interviewed with him (I can't remember why the subject even came up...I think it was in response to my question about the flexibility of the program). Anyway, the blind student was admitted by the MD/PhD program, apparently to the great dismay of the MD program, and the admissions people got into a bunch of arguments about the situation. The upshot was that the med school had to make some modifications and they decided that it would be best for the student to complete his MD training before beginning on his PhD work.

My interviewer was also telling me how the student intubates patients (which is described in the article) and the like.

 

[drguy22]

well...there is a lesson to be learned here..


Where there is a WILL there IS a WAY! no ifs, ands or buts!

 

[OSUdoc08]

I hope he's not going into radiology.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I hope he's not going into radiology.

Looks like he's thinking psychiatry or IM.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Looks like he's thinking psychiatry or IM.

Psychiatry would be the most practical. You just talk to your patients.

 

[masterMood]

he's going to go into surgery

 

[saffronrain]

"The difference between 'can' and 'cannot' are only three letters. Three letters that determine your life's direction."
That story is so inspiring and amazing... wow... I guess if you put your mind to anything, you can achieve it. Good for him!

 

[Ambs]

Wow, that was amazing. As a side note, I love the UW-Madison.

 

[funkless]

Looks like he's thinking psychiatry or IM.

If he goes into IM, how would he diagnose rashes and the like? (I can't believe he was able to pass histology and path.)

--Funkless

 

[Offear]

They had all of the handouts and readings translated into braile. The professor that I have for my undergrad Neurbiology class also teaches the subject to the Med Students. When were covering sensory perception, he passed around one of the note sheets in braile that he used and told us about Tim. ( I go to UW- Madison, btw.) I've heard he's a really nice guy. His story is most definitely inspiring.

 

[tacrum43]

I didn't think that blind people could become doctors (I remember reading some technical standard that they couldn't because they would need someone to communicate visual information for them, and that is unacceptable because the doctor must observe the patient directly). It was really inspiring to read about the guy in the story.

On a personal note, my younger brother is blind and told me that he might want to go to medical school too (he's such a tag-along), but I told him that you had to be able to see to be able to treat patients. Guess I was wrong. He's interested in physical therapy now, but maybe he can go to medical school afterall. I had better hurry up and get in to med school because he always does better than I do with grades and test scores and I couldn't let my little bro be a doctor before I am.

 

[Brain]

His story is definately inspiring (and humbling!). I'm just curious as to what his patients have thought though. What would you guys think if you went to a doctor that is blind? Psychiatry might be fine, but I wouldn't be comfortable with him doing surgery on me or diagnosing a rash. This may just be me though.

 

[darin]

he's going into ophthalmology.

If he can do it...but how did he take the MCAT

http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/04/02/seeing.no.limits.ap/index.html

 

[shahalam]

incredible, just freaking incredible and inspiring

 

[Psycho Doctor]

If he goes into IM, how would he diagnose rashes and the like? (I can't believe he was able to pass histology and path.)

--Funkless

using braille

 

[Psycho Doctor]

wow, what an inspiration! it goes to show with dedication and perserverance, all things are possible!

 

[beep]

i hope you are all inspired because you understand that this doc dealt with additional obstacles in getting his md, and sometimes had to work harder, rather than because your expectations for blind people are generally low.

 

[Ross434]

i hope you are all inspired because you understand that this doc dealt with additional obstacles in getting his md, and sometimes had to work harder, rather than because your expectations for blind people are generally low.

Well you dont expect blind people to be able to see well.

 

[tigress]

Well you dont expect blind people to be able to see well.

almost snorted my water when I read this

 

[criminallyinane]

His story is definately inspiring (and humbling!). I'm just curious as to what his patients have thought though. What would you guys think if you went to a doctor that is blind? Psychiatry might be fine, but I wouldn't be comfortable with him doing surgery on me or diagnosing a rash. This may just be me though.

I feel the same way. While I think it's nice for this guy that he got his MD, i also think he can't practically treat many patients, and am wondering if his school assumes that he'll ever be an independent practitioner. He obviously needs a ton of arrangements and supervision. It's a nice story, but in terms of practicality? I think it's sort of impractical, and that his space could have been used by somone with sight who could become an independent practitioner.

 

[funkless]

using braille

Right!

And what about gross lab? "Feels like pudendal nerve to me!" I can just see him hacking away on the cadavre like Ray Charles on the ivories.

 

[funkless]

He should definitely go into Psychiatry.

 

[beep]

Right!

And what about gross lab? "Feels like pudendal nerve to me!" I can just see him hacking away on the cadavre like Ray Charles on the ivories.

there are ways of doing raised drawings and using models that would let him learn anatomy when there's not enough difference in the feeling of structures in the cadaver to let him differentiate them... but there's no reason why many structures wouldn't be identifiable by touch.

 

[beep]

I feel the same way. While I think it's nice for this guy that he got his MD, i also think he can't practically treat many patients, and am wondering if his school assumes that he'll ever be an independent practitioner. He obviously needs a ton of arrangements and supervision. It's a nice story, but in terms of practicality? I think it's sort of impractical, and that his space could have been used by somone with sight who could become an independent practitioner.

to do most kinds of medicine, he would need "arrangements" (called accommodations), but not "supervision", as long as he's passed his boards and gotten through the proper amonts of residency. obviously some specialities of medicine will not be open to him. in others, he might use a pa or nurse or another person trained to give him the proper visual information about a patient as an assistant, or (depending on the patient), even ask the patient to describe things like rashes him- or herself. or (as in the article) he might use a machine that gives its info audibly. he will then have the info he needs to diagnose & treat... independent practice without a need for supervision. (if you think the use of an assistant would make him not indepentent, consider who holds the license, makes the decisions, does the intellectaul work, and runs the show.)

 

[criminallyinane]

to do most kinds of medicine, he would need "arrangements" (called accommodations), but not "supervision", as long as he's passed his boards and gotten through the proper amonts of residency. obviously some specialities of medicine will not be open to him. in others, he might use a pa or nurse or another person trained to give him the proper visual information about a patient as an assistant, or (depending on the patient), even ask the patient to describe things like rashes him- or herself. or (as in the article) he might use a machine that gives its info audibly. he will then have the info he needs to diagnose & treat... independent practice without a need for supervision. (if you think the use of an assistant would make him not indepentent, consider who holds the license, makes the decisions, does the intellectaul work, and runs the show.)

I don't see how he could do things like intubation, ABG's, IV's, blood-drawing, physical exam, etc, without supervision, by either a nurse or a doc. I don't think it's safe and I think we should remember that patient safety is more important than our own feelings of accomplishment. Maybe he CAN do it, but should he? That is the question.

 

[gujuDoc]

While diversity in medicine is important I have always read that there were some major physical abilities a person is supposed to have to get into medical school and I would think that sight was one of them. However, depending on what he's going into, maybe he'll be able to pull it off with his other heightened senses.

Since they do say that when you lose one sense you gain heightened senses in your other senses.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

I don't see how he could do things like intubation, ABG's, IV's, blood-drawing, physical exam, etc, without supervision, by either a nurse or a doc. I don't think it's safe and I think we should remember that patient safety is more important than our own feelings of accomplishment. Maybe he CAN do it, but should he? That is the question.

I think it would be best if we just smashed his head, put him on a feeding tube, and then pulled it out. Unproductive members of society are a tax burden and waste precious resources that could be better allocated to all the poor children starving in Africa.

 

[hello23]

he passed the boards which means he met the regulation to be a MD and graduated top sixth of the class. He is going into psychiatry....and everything you guys talk about like where the nerves are, the histology, and intubation are so irrelevant in psych. Listening is the most important skills to have in psych. And he matched too...so I think it is none of our business to make all the pointless assumption about someone's heroic story.

All in all, I just sense a lot of jealousy behind some of the posts above.

 

[marlin1]

I feel the same way. While I think it's nice for this guy that he got his MD, i also think he can't practically treat many patients, and am wondering if his school assumes that he'll ever be an independent practitioner. He obviously needs a ton of arrangements and supervision. It's a nice story, but in terms of practicality? I think it's sort of impractical, and that his space could have been used by somone with sight who could become an independent practitioner.

This guy was not the first to do it. I know the first person to do it, and he is one of the most respected psychiatrists at his hospital. He can practically treat many patients, and he does so every day(without "arrangements and supervision"). He has many positive qualities that make up for his lack of sight, including his brilliance. You should be cautious to assume that these guys' spots could have been used better by people who can see. If medical schools let them in, it's because they are more than capable, just not in the way that you think.

 

[sunnyjohn]

If he goes into IM, how would he diagnose rashes and the like? (I can't believe he was able to pass histology and path.)

--Funkless

Sandy Roof, the nurse practitioner who worked with Cordes in a clinic in the town of Waterloo, wondered about that.

"My first reaction was the same as others': How can he possibly see and treat patients?" she says. "I was skeptical, but within a short time I realized he was very capable, very sensitive."

She recalls watching him examine a patient with a rash, feel the area, ask the appropriate questions -- and come up with a correct diagnosis.

"He didn't try and sell himself," Roof adds. "He just did what needed to be done."

 

[sunnyjohn]

Right!

And what about gross lab? "Feels like pudendal nerve to me!" I can just see him hacking away on the cadavre like Ray Charles on the ivories.

Without sight, Cordes had to learn how to identify clusters of spaghetti-thin nerves and vessels in cadavers, study X-rays, read EKGs and patient charts, examine slides showing slices of the brain, diagnose rashes -- and more.

Dr. Yolanda Becker, assistant professor of surgery who performs transplants, noticed that Cordes had a talent for finding veins. "I tell the students, 'You have to feel them ... you just can't look.' For Tim, that was not an option."

 

[beep]

I don't see how he could do things like intubation, ABG's, IV's, blood-drawing, physical exam, etc, without supervision, by either a nurse or a doc. I don't think it's safe and I think we should remember that patient safety is more important than our own feelings of accomplishment. Maybe he CAN do it, but should he? That is the question.

well, if he CAN do it, why shouldn't he? i agree with you that no doctor should compromise on patient safety. naturally, any doctor with a disability will have to make sure that any interaction, treatment, diagnosis, etc they provide is safe & meets good standards of care. but i would guess that the guy in question can do some things that you "don't see how" he'd do, through having access to adaptive equipment with which you may not be familiar, knowing his own capacities, having developed skills over years of blindness, and by trying things out as he learns. i don't think you're really in a position to evaluate the safety of any care he provides.

 

[MD Rapper]

x

 

[OSUdoc08]

It's funny that you say that. One of the articles I read about this guy has an opening paragraph about how he was able to perfrom an intubation better than some people who could see. He used some special device which uses auditory tones.

Part of intubation is visualizing the vocal cords. It's just not the same with a series of beeps.

At least I would want someone intubating me that could see my vocal cords.

 

[masterMood]

He's gonna go into urology

 

[clc8503]

I bet this guy could make a great phychiatrist. Unfortunately, sight is a very precious comodity that a lot of take for granted. I could not see him doing any speacialty that involved sight. However, I do admire him for his strength!

 

[~~premed82~~]

Wow, Way to Go! What an inspiration, good job! See what happens when failure is NOT an Option!

 

[Blue Scrub]

That is an amazing story, I really cant imagine how he does it....he's like that blind cop on that ABC show "Blind Justice" more power to him!

 

[beep]

....he's like that blind cop on that ABC show "Blind Justice" more power to him!

Yes, both blind... so similar!

 

[criminallyinane]

Many of you misunderstand me. If he is going to go into psychiatry, that is great. Any field of medicine that required vision and quick action, however, I would find worrisome. I am in to medical school, so I have no reason to be jealous of this man; I highly respect his achievement and drive, but also feel that if he were going into a specialty other than psych, there would be issues of patient safety that would have to be addressed with regards to having a blind, independent physician practitioner.

 

[beep]

Many of you misunderstand me. If he is going to go into psychiatry, that is great. Any field of medicine that required vision and quick action, however, I would find worrisome. I am in to medical school, so I have no reason to be jealous of this man; I highly respect his achievement and drive, but also feel that if he were going into a specialty other than psych, there would be issues of patient safety that would have to be addressed with regards to having a blind, independent physician practitioner.

well, of course those issues of patient safety would have to be addressed. do you think the doctor himself and the medical school didn't think them through, though? i completely agree that safety is key, but my point throughout this thread has been that you have been making fairly harsh and unequivocal assumptions and judgements about this guy's abilitiy to work as a doc (and his worthiness to be allowed to even attempt medical training) without really knowing his abilities or the ways in which he can adapt his work in order to become an independent practitioner.

there are two tough things about being disabled: dealing with the logistics of the disability AND dealing with others' knee-jerk reactions, assumptions, and predjudices.

 

[rambo]

Yes, both blind... so similar!

That made my night.

 

[criminallyinane]

well, of course those issues of patient safety would have to be addressed. do you think the doctor himself and the medical school didn't think them through, though? i completely agree that safety is key, but my point throughout this thread has been that you have been making fairly harsh and unequivocal assumptions and judgements about this guy's abilitiy to work as a doc (and his worthiness to be allowed to even attempt medical training) without really knowing his abilities or the ways in which he can adapt his work in order to become an independent practitioner.

there are two tough things about being disabled: dealing with the logistics of the disability AND dealing with others' knee-jerk reactions, assumptions, and predjudices.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think I've been harsh, but I have been interested in understanding how it would be possible for him to become an independent practitioner without the safety net of the medical school helping him to make accommodations, provide supervision, and so on. That doesn't mean that I don't have tremendous respect for what he has done -- it does mean that I am asking valid and important questions about how he could achieve what a sighted person could in medicine while not compromising patient safety, the #1 concern. From a patient's perspective, I wouldn't want to be intubated by a blind physician, or have my rash examined by a blind person. I respect his fund of knowledge, but would be extremely uncomfortable with a physician who couldn't visually examine me. I don't think this implies discrimination -- it simply means that I wouldn't feel safe under those circumstances.

Like I said before, I think psychiatry is an excellent field for this young man, and I am sure he will do well.

 

[biendesalud]

We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think I've been harsh, but I have been interested in understanding how it would be possible for him to become an independent practitioner without the safety net of the medical school helping him to make accommodations, provide supervision, and so on. That doesn't mean that I don't have tremendous respect for what he has done -- it does mean that I am asking valid and important questions about how he could achieve what a sighted person could in medicine while not compromising patient safety, the #1 concern. From a patient's perspective, I wouldn't want to be intubated by a blind physician, or have my rash examined by a blind person. I respect his fund of knowledge, but would be extremely uncomfortable with a physician who couldn't visually examine me. I don't think this implies discrimination -- it simply means that I wouldn't feel safe under those circumstances.

Like I said before, I think psychiatry is an excellent field for this young man, and I am sure he will do well.

Well, lucky for you, most doctors can see. If you are not comfortable with a blind doctor you can probably ask to be treated by a different doctor. I see no need to disqualify him from any technique or specialty based on safety as long as his instructors and peers determine that his is competent with those skills. Granted, an intubation would imply that the patient is probably not in a state to choose their physician, but I am fine with it as long as he has passed all of the same clinical and academic exams as other docs. It’s the hospital/school’s choice to make any accommodations and it would be the patient’s choice to be treated by him in an independent practice. I’m not saying that it is wrong for you, as an individual, to be concerned for your own safety. I am only saying that I would not be as concerned.

 

[beep]

[earlier post, edited:] While I think it's nice for this guy that he got his MD, i also think he can't practically treat many patients, and am wondering if his school assumes that he'll ever be an independent practitioner. He obviously needs a ton of arrangements and supervision. ...his space could have been used by somone with sight who could become an independent practitioner.

[later post:] We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think I've been harsh, but I have been interested in understanding how it would be possible for him to become an independent practitioner without the safety net of the medical school helping him to make accommodations, provide supervision, and so on. That doesn't mean that I don't have tremendous respect for what he has done -- it does mean that I am asking valid and important questions about how he could achieve what a sighted person could in medicine while not compromising patient safety, the #1 concern. From a patient's perspective, I wouldn't want to be intubated by a blind physician, or have my rash examined by a blind person. I respect his fund of knowledge, but would be extremely uncomfortable with a physician who couldn't visually examine me. I don't think this implies discrimination -- it simply means that I wouldn't feel safe under those circumstances.

Like I said before, I think psychiatry is an excellent field for this young man, and I am sure he will do well.

I think you are right, that in the end we may just have to agree to disagree... but before I quit this discussion, another few thoughts:

I think it is completely right to say that patient safety is and should be the #1 concern--you are absolutely correct that questions about these issues are valid and important. However, it seems to me that without knowing the answers to specific questions about this guy's performance and what accommodations he needs, you decided that he would never be an independent practitioner and even that he should not be allowed a spot in medical school! That's discrimination, in my book: making a judgement that could prevent him (if you had the power) from doing what he wants to and is (presumably) qualified to do, based on your own assumptions and stereotypes rather than on information about his specific abilities. (I don't have this info either, not knowing him, although I'd guess I have a better sense of his capabilities than many people because I have spent a lot of time around several very successful & capable blind people.) If you had originally said, well, if he can do thus and such, it would be OK, but if he can't do thus and such, it wouldn't, that would be different...

Also, I think there is a difference between saying you wouldn't personally want a blind doctor (because you don't feel safe, or for any other reason) and saying that blind people can't be independent practitioners and thus shouldn't receive medical training. The former is a personal decision that you are allowed to make for any reason you deem good, the second is a judgement that does rise to the level of discrimination unless you are qualified to and have actually evaluated the skills and abilities of the person/people in question and have determined that they will never be adequate even with accommodations.