Board Certification without Residency

[babakpharm]

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So, is hospital experience needed to sit for the BCPS? Or will 3 years of retail experience allow you to sit for the exam?

 

[Sparda29]

So, is hospital experience needed to sit for the BCPS? Or will 3 years of retail experience allow you to sit for the exam?

Yeah, I'd think hospital experience is needed. I believe that 50% of your duties need to be patient care/clinical duties. Which is why I'm documenting all the interventions I make at the hospital and time spent on the floors counseling discharges, looking up charts, and whatnot.

 

[moolman]

So, is hospital experience needed to sit for the BCPS? Or will 3 years of retail experience allow you to sit for the exam?

No matter how many people wish and whine that you should be able to do 3 years of retail and take the test. The "man" aka BPS has determined you must work at a hospital.

 

[moolman]

Yeah, I'd think hospital experience is needed. I believe that 50% of your duties need to be patient care/clinical duties. Which is why I'm documenting all the interventions I make at the hospital and time spent on the floors counseling discharges, looking up charts, and whatnot.

I wouldn't go that far to document things unless you just want to. As long as you work for a hospital, the rest is the honor system as to what kind of duties you did, you really think its worth anybody's time to audit you, you're suppose to be a professional and conduct yourself in a professional manner, meaning they expect you not to be stealing meds just like they expect you to be honest about the duties that you did.

 

[Sparda29]

I wouldn't go that far to document things unless you just want to. As long as you work for a hospital, the rest is the honor system as to what kind of duties you did, you really think its worth anybody's time to audit you, you're suppose to be a professional and conduct yourself in a professional manner, meaning they expect you not to be stealing meds just like they expect you to be honest about the duties that you did.

The intervention documentation is actually required. We have a system to keep track of it and at the end of the year, the DOP gets a report via pie-chart that shows the performance of each pharmacist when it comes to amount of interventions made. From that, they base your bonuses/raises, and also he can go to his superiors and request more hours by saying, "hey, look what my pharmacists have been doing, we need some more help in here".

 

[bacillus1]

The intervention documentation is actually required. We have a system to keep track of it and at the end of the year, the DOP gets a report via pie-chart that shows the performance of each pharmacist when it comes to amount of interventions made. From that, they base your bonuses/raises, and also he can go to his superiors and request more hours by saying, "hey, look what my pharmacists have been doing, we need some more help in here".

Do you guys use Clinical Measures for that? We have that, and I've really been slacking off at documenting my interventions, as I really don't have much time for that with all the other stuff I have to do for residency. Would probably do it more often if I knew that someone is presenting this data as a way to show the need for more FTEs, to get the hospital to finally start hiring people!

Neat thing about that program is that it shows the amount of money saved for each intervention. No clue how they come up with their values though.

 

[GamecockPharmD]

Can you confirm that you actually MUST work in a hospital for them to allow you to take the BCPS? Arguably, a lot that retail pharmacists do could fall into a "clinical" category. I have heard of retail pharmacists being able to do this, but obviously not many because it isn't beneficial working retail. I would like to take next year if possible but I work retail. I did work PRN at a hospital but I got married and my wife didn't appreciate me working all the time. I worked like 70 hours per week for 7 months. I don't consider working retail for 3 years then taking BCPS equivalent to residency. There is no way. I just want an extra credential to stand out from the rest of the crowd. I could just say look, i worked retail but kept up with the clinical stuff. I would like to show that I'm competent to work as a staff pharmacist full time at a hospital. Unfortunately there were no full time positions at the hospital I was at and I hung on as long as I could before getting burned out. They tried to get me to stay and told me I could come back but killing myself working both jobs isn't worth it. I don't regret it, because I think even 7 months of inpatient on a resume is better than none. But now I just want to work my retail job and get extra credentials.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

It does not have to be a hospital.

 

[moolman]

Can you confirm that you actually MUST work in a hospital for them to allow you to take the BCPS? Arguably, a lot that retail pharmacists do could fall into a "clinical" category. I have heard of retail pharmacists being able to do this, but obviously not many because it isn't beneficial working retail. I would like to take next year if possible but I work retail. I did work PRN at a hospital but I got married and my wife didn't appreciate me working all the time. I worked like 70 hours per week for 7 months. I don't consider working retail for 3 years then taking BCPS equivalent to residency. There is no way. I just want an extra credential to stand out from the rest of the crowd. I could just say look, i worked retail but kept up with the clinical stuff. I would like to show that I'm competent to work as a staff pharmacist full time at a hospital. Unfortunately there were no full time positions at the hospital I was at and I hung on as long as I could before getting burned out. They tried to get me to stay and told me I could come back but killing myself working both jobs isn't worth it. I don't regret it, because I think even 7 months of inpatient on a resume is better than none. But now I just want to work my retail job and get extra credentials.

If you go to the bpsweb.org website, it says the requirements are:

Completion of three (3) years of practice experience with at least 50% of time spent in pharmacotherapy activities (as defined by the BPS Pharmacotherapy Content Outline).

If you go to the Content Outline, a lot of that stuff, you might be able to stretch your imagination and truth to say you do it in retail but anybody not trying to pull things out of thin air will agree that it does look like you have to work in hospital or other setting, maybe Long term care or whatevers to fulfill it. If you're desperate, maybe patient counseling and verifying Rxs counts towards the pharmacotherapy activites. So if you're working at CVS and they ask you to help stock shelves or other non-pharmacotherapy activites, you should time yourself and if it's going to be more than 50% of your time, you should refuse on the grounds that it will disqualify you from taking the BCPS and see how far you get.

Bottomline is, I've yet to hear of a retail pharmacist being able to take the test, if they did, I think it was an oversight because the requirements make retail work difficult to meet the requirements. Like a lot of things in a profession like pharmacy where your honor and word are suppose to be gold, hence, things like they expect you not to steal meds, only a pharmacist can possess the pharmacy key, etc, it's your word that you did the things, so even someone working at a hospital may not meet the requirements but if they claim they do there's no way to dispute it. If someone working retail claims it, maybe they ask for proof, who knows, try signing up and get back to us.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Agree that most chain retail is a stretch, but there are other non hospital settings that would qualify.

 

[confettiflyer]

Man I was joking about the elitist thing...I didn't know people took that ish seriously.

 

[moolman]

Agree that most chain retail is a stretch, but there are other non hospital settings that would qualify.

I did mention long term care, where you do daily rounds to check up on the geriatrics patients.... I'm sure there's more situations but my knowledge is very limited, don't trust any of my posts.

 

[moolman]

Man I was joking about the elitist thing...I didn't know people took that ish seriously.

Oh I take it seriously, when I look at a CV from a person that didn't do a residency... I wash my hands cause I was tainted by their non-residency koodies and I have this look of disdain on my face as if I got a bad burrito at Chipotle, the kind where they skimped on the meat and ripped your tortilla and put only a dab of guac even though the dude before you got the huge friggin spoonful.

 

[confettiflyer]

Oh I take it seriously, when I look at a CV from a person that didn't do a residency... I wash my hands cause I was tainted by their non-residency koodies and I have this look of disdain on my face as if I got a bad burrito at Chipotle, the kind where they skimped on the meat and ripped your tortilla and put only a dab of guac even though the dude before you got the huge friggin spoonful.

mmm guacamole

pssh, your selectivity amuses me. When I look to hire pharmacists, I march over to the Chief of Medicine and raid his computer for physician CV's.

You can have that PGY-2 trained, BCPS/BCOP/FASHP/FCCP pharmacist with 40 years of experience (HE INVENTED DARVON)... I'm gonna hire the MD.

 

[Sparda29]

Do you guys use Clinical Measures for that? We have that, and I've really been slacking off at documenting my interventions, as I really don't have much time for that with all the other stuff I have to do for residency. Would probably do it more often if I knew that someone is presenting this data as a way to show the need for more FTEs, to get the hospital to finally start hiring people!

Neat thing about that program is that it shows the amount of money saved for each intervention. No clue how they come up with their values though.

Possibly. I think the subdivision of whatever documentation system we use is called Quantifi.

 

[rxlea]

Man I was joking about the elitist thing...I didn't know people took that ish seriously.

You can't deny that there are THOSE people who are residency trained that scoff at any kind of staffing/order entry. In fact, I know of a couple who see staff pharmacists < residency trained. I'd say that's pretty elitist.

I'm not sure why some people get like that; you can learn so much (and do several "clinical" interventions) doing order entry or verifying orders down in the basement. I think dispensing is probably pretty high up there on importance since that's where errors are caught and patient harm is prevented. It's an important role and people shouldn't look down on it. Maybe people get bored after a while or whatever but that experience is invaluable IMO. With that said, for certain positions, residency is just required as there are things learned on residency through projects and what not that may not be learned being a staff pharmacist. Besides, specialists learn their role inside and out and are allowed the time to investigate cost saving measures, improving/establishing guidelines or protocols in house. I'm not sure that stuff us easily achieved when your time at work requires order entry, checking tech work, etc. for your standard 8-10 hours.

 

[confettiflyer]

You can't deny that there are THOSE people who are residency trained that scoff at any kind of staffing/order entry. In fact, I know of a couple who see staff pharmacists < residency trained. I'd say that's pretty elitist.

I'm not sure why some people get like that; you can learn so much (and do several "clinical" interventions) doing order entry or verifying orders down in the basement. I think dispensing is probably pretty high up there on importance since that's where errors are caught and patient harm is prevented. It's an important role and people shouldn't look down on it. Maybe people get bored after a while or whatever but that experience is invaluable IMO. With that said, for certain positions, residency is just required as there are things learned on residency through projects and what not that may not be learned being a staff pharmacist. Besides, specialists learn their role inside and out and are allowed the time to investigate cost saving measures, improving/establishing guidelines or protocols in house. I'm not sure that stuff us easily achieved when your time at work requires order entry, checking tech work, etc. for your standard 8-10 hours.

Kind of like how ICU is known popularly as the "pinnacle" of pharmacy practice. Depending on your institution, just because a field has a PGY-2 available and all your patients are pretty much intubated/sedated/on the verge of death doesn't make it the a) most difficult area of practice or b) the most impactful area for pharmacists.

I've seen ICU's practically run themselves in terms of pharmacy practice. You put in good enough programs and protocols, educate the nurses, and have good residents/resident learning and attendings... any "lowly staff" pharmacist with some ACLS training can run the rx show.

So no, as a resident I don't buy the whole elitist thing, because I was so close to getting a job straight out and doing well with it that I'd be a hypocrite to say otherwise. I will say this...I know residents with chips on their shoulders that harbor those elitist feelings, and they're some of the most miserable residents I have ever talked to.

 

[rxlea]

Kind of like how ICU is known popularly as the "pinnacle" of pharmacy practice. Depending on your institution, just because a field has a PGY-2 available and all your patients are pretty much intubated/sedated/on the verge of death doesn't make it the a) most difficult area of practice or b) the most impactful area for pharmacists.

I've seen ICU's practically run themselves in terms of pharmacy practice. You put in good enough programs and protocols, educate the nurses, and have good residents/resident learning and attendings... any "lowly staff" pharmacist with some ACLS training can run the rx show.

So no, as a resident I don't buy the whole elitist thing, because I was so close to getting a job straight out and doing well with it that I'd be a hypocrite to say otherwise. I will say this...I know residents with chips on their shoulders that harbor those elitist feelings, and they're some of the most miserable residents I have ever talked to.

Yeah, our institution can be quite different but there is only one residency trained pharmacist up there. The other two are not residency trained and are extremely knowledgeable, highly respected, and never arrogant. I admire them.

But yes, I agree with you. I don't see any one area of institutional practice as the pinnacle of pharmacy. They all have their advantages/disadvantages. There is a need for specialists though because pharmacists at my institution are highly involved in matters not involving dosing, monitoring, recommendations, etc. I think that's where intensive residencies are useful because pharmacists can come in with those skill sets rather than learning them over time. I suspect this may change gradually since the model of pharmacy curriculum has changed giving students more opportunities to learn those skills. The more students coming out of school with that knowledge base, the more pharmacy practice will change overall.

 

[owlegrad]

So no, as a resident I don't buy the whole elitist thing, because I was so close to getting a job straight out and doing well with it that I'd be a hypocrite to say otherwise. I will say this...I know residents with chips on their shoulders that harbor those elitist feelings, and they're some of the most miserable residents I have ever talked to.

I have often thought the same thing from my limited exposure. Something about having an attitude seems to make it difficult to just....enjoy life? lol, not sure how to put it exactly. But having an attitude seems to make it impossible to just do your work and get along with your coworkers.

 

[Its Z]

I dont hire papers and credentials. I hire people.

But completion of residency is a good barometer to assess candidates. It says a lot about them.

BCPS is a test of knowledge....any blow ho can do it.
Residency is a.process that exposes one to healthcare system practice that years of staff pharmacist may never see.

Again...no credentials alone will make a candidate attractive. You need to be a complete package.

Carry on.

 

[rxlea]

I dont hire papers and credentials. I hire people.

But completion of residency is a good barometer to assess candidates. It says a lot about them.

BCPS is a test of knowledge....any blow ho can do it.
Residency is a.process that exposes one to healthcare system practice that years of staff pharmacist may never see.

Again...no credentials alone will make a candidate attractive. You need to be a complete package.

Carry on.

So what you're saying is that it's the quality of the package, not the size

 

[All4MyDaughter]

What is a "blow ho???" 😱

 

[cycloketocaine]

So what you're saying is that it's the quality of the package, not the size

Lulz

 

[Its Z]

What is a "blow ho???" 😱

Joe Blows girlfriend.

 

[confettiflyer]

Residency is a.process that exposes one to healthcare system practice that years of staff pharmacist may never see.

Bingo. I did/saw things in my first 2 months of residency that most respected/knowledgable staff pharmacists don't typically see or experience.

My 2nd big surprise was that residency was more management and health system nagivation skills vs. rote clinical work.

I think people on here expect PGY-1's to be pharmacokinetic machines at the end and therefore you get this idea that retail work + enough reviewing of Winters + BCPS = residency.

 

[moolman]

Now that we convinced the unwashed masses that they shouldn't feel inadequate for not doing a residency...can we go back to just subtle looks of disdain.

 

[ellwoodis]

Residencies are not there for the taking. I've tried and failed for 4 years in Cali and then outward.
Even 3 years ago I had residency directors suggesting that I pass the BCPS to prove that I'm competent.
He told me to ignore the 3-year requirement.
Last year, I had a residency director say that he expects his applicants to have completed the BCPS before applying.
How high must we jump for a residency?'
One could have an MD degree by the time one passes the BCPS and enters an completes a residency.

 

[spacecowgirl]

Last year, I had a residency director say that he expects his applicants to have completed the BCPS before applying.

😕 Surely you misunderstood.

 

[confettiflyer]

Even 3 years ago I had residency directors suggesting that I pass the BCPS to prove that I'm competent.
He told me to ignore the 3-year requirement.
Last year, I had a residency director say that he expects his applicants to have completed the BCPS before applying.
How high must we jump for a residency?'
One could have an MD degree by the time one passes the BCPS and enters an completes a residency.

uhm. 😕

 

[moolman]

Residencies are not there for the taking. I've tried and failed for 4 years in Cali and then outward.
Even 3 years ago I had residency directors suggesting that I pass the BCPS to prove that I'm competent.
He told me to ignore the 3-year requirement.
Last year, I had a residency director say that he expects his applicants to have completed the BCPS before applying.
How high must we jump for a residency?'
One could have an MD degree by the time one passes the BCPS and enters an completes a residency.

Anybody that tries 4 times and doesn't get the hint is a weird dude. If you've interviewed residency applicants before, you know that a lot of it is personality fit. I think this post shows why he tried 4 times and never matched, besides not getting the hint after even 3 times. There's persistency and theres weirdness kind of like when a guy goes after a girl, there's a fine line between being persistent and being a stalker. Line passed.