Board Certification without Residency

[babakpharm]

Is a board certification equal to a 1 year residency? I have no desire to do a residency, but really don't want to be just limited to working retail for the rest of my career. Retail for the immediate future would be no problem, however I would like to keep my options open. I'm planning on working 3 years as a retail pharmacist and then hopefully sit for the Board Certification in Pharmacotherapy (After intense studying). This way I can start making the money I want right away, while still being able to get Board Certified , which I've heard is equivalent to doing a residency...any thoughts?

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[moolman]

Don't want to rain on your parade too much but slight problem with your plan. If you don't do a ASHP accredited residency, accreditation is required starting next year in 2013, you need to work 3 years in a clinical setting, meaning hospital and even from that you have to give them percentages of time you spent doing specific patient oriented things. Your retail does not count toward the 3 year requirement.

 

[cycloketocaine]

Is a board certification equal to a 1 year residency? I have no desire to do a residency, but really don't want to be just limited to working retail for the rest of my career. Retail for the immediate future would be no problem, however I would like to keep my options open. I'm planning on working 3 years as a retail pharmacist and then hopefully sit for the Board Certification in Pharmacotherapy (After intense studying). This way I can start making the money I want right away, while still being able to get Board Certified , which I've heard is equivalent to doing a residency...any thoughts?

Also, with more and more people completing residencies and subsequently becoming BCPS certified, doing it without resi will become virtually useless going forward, as you will be in competition with slews of people who have done a PGY1 and/or 2.

 

[moolman]

I'll give you some hope, I know people that worked the minimum 3 years in a hospital and took the BCPS so that they aren't "stuck" doing order entry forever. Getting a hospital job is right out of school is hard but not impossible, I know plenty that have.

 

[BenJammin]

Getting a hospital job is right out of school is hard but not impossible, I know plenty that have.

Add me to that list.

 

[all4rx]

I got a hospital job right out of school without experience too. A clinical staff position where I can enjoy doing multiple other things beside order entry all hours long, i.e. clinical interventions, antimicrobial stewardship, dosing kinetics & TPN consultations, discharge counseling, etc. My other interest is in teaching, so I am waiting to become preceptor after 1 year of working and may apply to become an adjunct faculty for a local pharmacy school that sends students to do their rotations at my hospital. I am hoping to get BCPS certified after 3 years as well just to keep my credentials up to par with others....but really, I don't think I do anything different than a typical PGY1-trained pharmacist would do in their normal daily practice.

 

[Sparda29]

Add me to that list.

Same. For now, I'll be in order-entry/IV room/narcotics/filling carts, but once the hospital converts to CPOE, pharmacists will be roaming around on the floors.

 

[moolman]

A residency just gets you there faster, how else can you learn so much in just a year, where a proper residency's goal is to teach you. If you get a job, your job is to work, in a residency your job is to learn. They don't give you a magic powers when you do a residency. Besides getting there faster the only other advantage is that you know how to properly precept a resident which is definitely different than a student.

 

[confettiflyer]

part of the reason i turned down a hospital job right out of school was to a) get to BCPS/clinical work faster (1yr vs. 3yrs) and b) practice in a desirable metropolitan area faster.

i'd estimate about 85% of those i know who got hospital jobs right out of graduation did so in areas below their "top 3" geographic areas to work.

and i would probably be on the "eff residency those elitist bastards" bandwagon had i not matched. serious.

 

[joetrisman]

and i would probably be on the "eff residency those elitist bastards" bandwagon had i not matched

 

[Rockinacoustic]

Also, with more and more people completing residencies and subsequently becoming BCPS certified, doing it without resi will become virtually useless going forward, as you will be in competition with slews of people who have done a PGY1 and/or 2.

So all other things being equal, residency + Board Cert > claiming 3 years of clinical experience + Board Cert?

 

[BenJammin]

Also, with more and more people completing residencies and subsequently becoming BCPS certified, doing it without resi will become virtually useless going forward, as you will be in competition with slews of people who have done a PGY1 and/or 2.

Completely irrelevant outside of academia. A PGY-1 is not going to have the advantage over me when I have the work experience and the same certification.

 

[rxlea]

Completely irrelevant outside of academia. A PGY-1 is not going to have the advantage over me when I have the work experience and the same certification.

I debated this for a while and finally asked about it. Depends on the school obviously but all my clinical faculty that are young enough to go through the regular residency process did a residency. The science faculty don't have one but all the clinical do....even my mentor who doesn't do clinical practice.

 

[BenJammin]

I debated this for a while and finally asked about it. Depends on the school obviously but all my clinical faculty that are young enough to go through the regular residency process did a residency. The science faculty don't have one but all the clinical do....even my mentor who doesn't do clinical practice.

But it doesn't work like that in the real world. If cyclo wants a job with a CoP then that is great advice. Otherwise it's lunacy.

 

[rxlea]

But it doesn't work like that in the real world. If cyclo wants a job with a CoP then that is great advice. Otherwise it's lunacy.

I'm not sure what you mean. That IS real world....

 

[BenJammin]

I'm not sure what you mean. That IS real world....

Academia is not the working/practicing world.

 

[rxlea]

Academia is not the working/practicing world.

Uh....most of my clinical faculty work at UMC, ambulatory clinics, and other hospitals. So yeah, outsideof my pharm econ department, which is small, everyone else is practicing.

(some retired from practice to teach but just a few of those are teaching us...with their 25+ years of experience)

 

[BenJammin]

Uh....most of my clinical faculty work at UMC, ambulatory clinics, and other hospitals. So yeah, outsideof my pharm econ department, which is small, everyone else is practicing.

Full time practicing?

 

[rxlea]

Full time practicing?

They are practicing pretty much everyday. Where is this going?

Trying to make the claim that what cyclo did is equal to your no residency when it comes to faculty? Nope. Unless you're a PhD in pharm/tox or something and doing 80/20 research.

 

[KARM12]

Completely irrelevant outside of academia. A PGY-1 is not going to have the advantage over me when I have the work experience and the same certification.

This is not necessarily true...there are plenty of places that want to paper credentials. It depends on the job you are going for and the experiences they are looking for...

 

[rxlea]

This is not necessarily true...there are plenty of places that want to paper credentials. It depends on the job you are going for and the experiences they are looking for...

Agreed. My point above is that if he's going for clinical faculty, a PGY1 is probably a good idea. Especially now where the job market lets schools pick unicorns

 

[All4MyDaughter]

So all other things being equal, residency + Board Cert > claiming 3 years of clinical experience + Board Cert?

I think it depends on who is doing the hiring. If you are going for a position at a place where the hiring manager cares about hiring residency trained pharmacists, you may not be able to overcome lack of residency with some experience + BCPS. There is no way to make one statement that would cover every possible situation.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

But it doesn't work like that in the real world. If cyclo wants a job with a CoP then that is great advice. Otherwise it's lunacy.

You're mistaken. There are plenty of hospitals that require residency training for clinical specialist positions. At our local children's hospital, new grads can sometimes get hired for the dispensing pharmacy, but for clinical pharmacist positions, they require PGY-1 + experience or PGY-2. Same with oncology specialist positions at the University hospital.

 

[joetrisman]

You're mistaken. There are plenty of hospitals that require residency training for clinical specialist positions. At our local children's hospital, new grads can sometimes get hired for the dispensing pharmacy, but for clinical pharmacist positions, they require PGY-1 + experience or PGY-2. Same with oncology specialist positions at the University hospital.

Louisville isn't in the real world. Duh!

 

[Praziquantel86]

Completely irrelevant outside of academia. A PGY-1 is not going to have the advantage over me when I have the work experience and the same certification.

Plenty of hospitals (non-academic) are no longer hiring non-PGY1 trained graduates for anything other than dispensing-type positions. Granted, a pharmacist with years of clinical experience may get a job over a PGY1, but it's becoming more difficult to get that experience without a PGY1 (and hence a self-perpetuating loop). BCPS frequently does not factor into this decision, although it may help.

No, it's not impossible to get the clinical job without a residency, but it certainly makes things more difficult.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Plenty of hospitals (non-academic) are no longer hiring non-PGY1 trained graduates for anything other than dispensing-type positions. Granted, a pharmacist with years of clinical experience may get a job over a PGY1, but it's becoming more difficult to get that experience without a PGY1 (and hence a self-perpetuating loop). BCPS frequently does not factor into this decision, although it may help.

No, it's not impossible to get the clinical job without a residency, but it certainly makes things more difficult.

Particularly in larger cites and more desirable areas. Smaller cities and places fewer people want to live? It's easier.

 

[awval999]

I plan on sitting for the BCPS after 3 years (next year, I'm a 2010 graduate) because of the proliferation of the PGY-1. The BCPS exam will show that you are at least as competent as the residency trained pharmacist. It's the best thing you can do if you don't have the PGY-1.

And even then, some hiring managers just may not care if you don't have the "paper residency". But it's the next best thing to do.

You can redirect the question if you hold the BCPS, in the interview
Question: "Why didn't you do a residency?"
Answer: "I deeply wanted to but I had to start practice in order to provide for my family, as you can see I am very motivated and my practice experience is equivalent to a residency, I have sat for and earned the BCPS designation, I think you will see my practice experience and creditionals are equal to and in my opinion, exceeds a PGY-1 candidate".

 

[moolman]

Yes, experience, luck, determination, how life works in general. Lets not fool ourselves though BCPS does not equal a residency, anybody can buy the prep material and pass the test, doesn't mean you'll know what to do. If you can match do a residency.

 

[Praziquantel86]

I plan on sitting for the BCPS after 3 years (next year, I'm a 2010 graduate) because of the proliferation of the PGY-1. The BCPS exam will show that you are at least as competent as the residency trained pharmacist. It's the best thing you can do if you don't have the PGY-1.

And even then, some hiring managers just may not care if you don't have the "paper residency". But it's the next best thing to do.

You can redirect the question if you hold the BCPS, in the interview
Question: "Why didn't you do a residency?"
Answer: "I deeply wanted to but I had to start practice in order to provide for my family, as you can see I am very motivated and my practice experience is equivalent to a residency, I have sat for and earned the BCPS designation, I think you will see my practice experience and creditionals are equal to and in my opinion, exceeds a PGY-1 candidate".

What about a PGY1 trained person with 3 years experience?

And in all honesty, until you've done a residency, you don't know if your experience is equivalent. At the institutions I've trained at, the staffing experience is in no way similar to what occurs during a residency. By no means am I poo-poohing work experience, but they're not the same thing.

 

[Ackj]

And in all honesty, until you've done a residency, you don't know if your experience is equivalent. At the institutions I've trained at, the staffing experience is in no way similar to what occurs during a residency.

From what I've seen on rotations, the residents are basically like super P4s. They get assignments and projects, and pretty much anything else clinical coordinators/dop wants looked into. It seems like the whole "Well that would be a great learning experience for our intern!!" but more intense since you're there for a whole year, rather than 4-6 weeks. Journal clubs, disease state presentations, all that stuff. In addition to that, you've got regular duties like rounding with the team or staffing.

This is just from what I've gathered. Anybody who's actually done it feel free to chime in and confirm/deny that stuff.

 

[moolman]

Just like a tech sees what you do and thinks its easy, just like a p4 looks at what you do and thinks that it's not clinical, just like a prepharm that looks at you and thinks they can change the world. Your just seeing a taste of a pgy1, while there can be bad residencys out there, the main point is to teach you and they teach you a lot.

 

[GamecockPharmD]

Ive heard of pharmacists working retail taking BCPS and passing after 3 years. If you look at the "clinical" requirements, pt education and counseling count. I could also make an argument for drug utilization review and when you call a physician to alter drug therapy. When you recommend an antibiotic and the MD goes with it, you just designed a treatment plan. When i worked prn at a hospital, my boss suggested i take it. I wasnt clinical even though i dosed vanc and gent after the clinicals left. She was BCPS and she acted like those clinical requirements didnt matter. Just residency or 3 years experience. What about PharmDs with community residencies that are BCPS? Were their jobs tht much different than a plain retail phamacist? If anyone else has any insight let us know. Im planning on taking it next year and i work retail. If they tell me im not qualified ill let you guys know. If i sit for it, regardless of whether i pass or fail, ill let everyone know. Ill be licensed for 3 years next august.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Ive heard of pharmacists working retail taking BCPS and passing after 3 years. If you look at the "clinical" requirements, pt education and counseling count. I could also make an argument for drug utilization review and when you call a physician to alter drug therapy. When you recommend an antibiotic and the MD goes with it, you just designed a treatment plan. When i worked prn at a hospital, my boss suggested i take it. I wasnt clinical even though i dosed vanc and gent after the clinicals left. She was BCPS and she acted like those clinical requirements didnt matter. Just residency or 3 years experience. What about PharmDs with community residencies that are BCPS? Were their jobs tht much different than a plain retail phamacist? If anyone else has any insight let us know. Im planning on taking it next year and i work retail. If they tell me im not qualified ill let you guys know. If i sit for it, regardless of whether i pass or fail, ill let everyone know. Ill be licensed for 3 years next august.

I did a community residency and my training was much different than just staffing in a retail pharmacy, although staffing was one component. I'm not going for BCPS though. I'm going to wait and go for BCACP or CGP next year.

 

[GamecockPharmD]

If i cant do BCPS i think ill go for CGP. I think all you need is 2 years for that. Maintaining these certifications is expensive. I figure BCPS is the more recognized than CGP. I guess CGP would help in a LTC pharmacy setting or with consulting if youre not a geriatric specialist in a hospital. What other stuff did the community residency consist of? Did you have collaborative practice agreements?

 

[moolman]

Maybe someone can post on here if they were allowed to take the exam after working 3 years of retail not a hospital. My understanding was that it was always hospital work and even at that you'd have to do specific clinical things hence they ask you what percentage of time you spent doing this and that. Of course there is no way for them to check so it is a honor system. I do know that they do check the experience requirement, I had a buddy taking the test this year and he was audited for work because he wrote he would have 2 years and 10 months of experience at the time of the test, emailed them back pointing out the manual says that you can be within 6 months to sit for the test. Their mistake but it goes to show that someone is looking. I would guess if you put that you worked for Walgreens or whatever retail, they would reject your app. They also do ask for your specific employers, supervisors and their number and email.

 

[awval999]

Yes, experience, luck, determination, how life works in general. Lets not fool ourselves though BCPS does not equal a residency, anybody can buy the prep material and pass the test, doesn't mean you'll know what to do. If you can match do a residency.

What about a PGY1 trained person with 3 years experience?

And in all honesty, until you've done a residency, you don't know if your experience is equivalent. At the institutions I've trained at, the staffing experience is in no way similar to what occurs during a residency. By no means am I poo-poohing work experience, but they're not the same thing.

From what I've seen on rotations, the residents are basically like super P4s. They get assignments and projects, and pretty much anything else clinical coordinators/dop wants looked into. It seems like the whole "Well that would be a great learning experience for our intern!!" but more intense since you're there for a whole year, rather than 4-6 weeks. Journal clubs, disease state presentations, all that stuff. In addition to that, you've got regular duties like rounding with the team or staffing.

This is just from what I've gathered. Anybody who's actually done it feel free to chime in and confirm/deny that stuff.

Just like a tech sees what you do and thinks its easy, just like a p4 looks at what you do and thinks that it's not clinical, just like a prepharm that looks at you and thinks they can change the world. Your just seeing a taste of a pgy1, while there can be bad residencys out there, the main point is to teach you and they teach you a lot.

A residency is a learning experience. One learns while doing one. It is beneficial.

Is a freshly minted PGY-1 a better pharmacist than someone with 3 years experience and a BCPS certification?

No one can answer that. It just all depends on the pharmacist, the residency, the experience, the interview, the references, etc.

My whole post is that a BCPS certification is a nice extra to have, residency or not. I think that statement is not-debatable.

 

[mustang sally]

A residency is a learning experience. One learns while doing one. It is beneficial.

Is a freshly minted PGY-1 a better pharmacist than someone with 3 years experience and a BCPS certification?

No one can answer that. It just all depends on the pharmacist, the residency, the experience, the interview, the references, etc.

My whole post is that a BCPS certification is a nice extra to have, residency or not. I think that statement is not-debatable.

A significant proportion of us "real world" pharmacists are not able to do a residency nowadays even if we want to. I think for us, BCPS is the next best thing whether it equals PGY-1 residency training or not. I know I plan to sit for it when the time comes.

Yeah, I'm on the "eff those elitist bastards bandwagon".

 

[rx76onu]

I too am a pharmacist who was unable to do a residency. I tried two consectuative years to get one and never matched. Does that mean that I should not be able to take BCPS and advance my career past the role of retail pharmacist? That sounds elitist.

 

[clachan3]

Is a board certification equal to a 1 year residency? I have no desire to do a residency, but really don't want to be just limited to working retail for the rest of my career. Retail for the immediate future would be no problem, however I would like to keep my options open. I'm planning on working 3 years as a retail pharmacist and then hopefully sit for the Board Certification in Pharmacotherapy (After intense studying). This way I can start making the money I want right away, while still being able to get Board Certified , which I've heard is equivalent to doing a residency...any thoughts?

I really like this thread. Something for us retail pharmacists to consider. I'm sure there are lots of us out there are searching for ways to apply as much clinical skills as possible. I did try to find out more about being certified, but from what I understood you have to spend half your time counseling, and again I'm just mostly doing a technician's job in retail since I don't have tech. So that makes me not qualified to take the certification test.

Has anyone thought about doing a residency after only working retail? I have, my question is since the job market is so bad, is it worth leaving your steady retail job for residency and risk not finding a job later??

 

[cycloketocaine]

I too am a pharmacist who was unable to do a residency. I tried two consectuative years to get one and never matched. Does that mean that I should not be able to take BCPS and advance my career past the role of retail pharmacist? That sounds elitist.

I don't think the point is that you shouldn't be able to...it is whether that will be equivalent to residency training going forward with the increased number of residency trained pharmacists.

 

[moolman]

I too am a pharmacist who was unable to do a residency. I tried two consectuative years to get one and never matched. Does that mean that I should not be able to take BCPS and advance my career past the role of retail pharmacist? That sounds elitist.

Yeah, it sucks but somethings are just not fair when the "man" aka BPS is keeping you down. As cyclo pointed out below, BCPS does not equal residency training, it doesn't equal experience, it doesn't mean jack crap without the work experience, it just means you're were able to buy a study guide and pass a test. What would be the use of working 3 years of retail and taking a test learning about all these things at a hospital when you never set foot in a hospital, IV room etc. You do not need to do a residency to pass the BCPS, I think considering that all of you were able to pass pharm school and Naplex, if you bought the BCPS book and studied you can pass but what's the point like I said without the experience. So don't be too sad that you can't take the BCPS after working retail cause your just saving money, that's $600 to sit for the test, $500 for the material and membership to ACCP, and $100 yearly renewal fee. So lets say you pass and you worked retail, what hospital would hire you unless they were willing to hire someone straight out of school anyway, then at that point, you might as well not stress out about the BCPS and go get a job.

 

[awval999]

Yeah, it sucks but somethings are just not fair when the "man" aka BPS is keeping you down. As cyclo pointed out below, BCPS does not equal residency training, it doesn't equal experience, it doesn't mean jack crap without the work experience, it just means you're were able to buy a study guide and pass a test. What would be the use of working 3 years of retail and taking a test learning about all these things at a hospital when you never set foot in a hospital, IV room etc. You do not need to do a residency to pass the BCPS, I think considering that all of you were able to pass pharm school and Naplex, if you bought the BCPS book and studied you can pass but what's the point like I said without the experience. So don't be too sad that you can't take the BCPS after working retail cause your just saving money, that's $600 to sit for the test, $500 for the material and membership to ACCP, and $100 yearly renewal fee. So lets say you pass and you worked retail, what hospital would hire you unless they were willing to hire someone straight out of school anyway, then at that point, you might as well not stress out about the BCPS and go get a job.

The same argument is that 10 years or so after a residency does it really matter anymore? Obviously if you are applying for a new job due to change in geography, wanting a new experience, etc, a residency is going to be meaningless, the employer will care about your previous 10 years experience more.

The conclusion is the same:

A residency will help you land a job
Good work experience will help you land a job
Good references will help you land a job
Good interviewing techniques will help you land a job

I agree with you moolman that I don't see the point for a retail pharmacist to take the BCPS, because it will not benefit their practice environment. The best bet for making the jump to hospital is to take ANY prn shifts, etc. Keep applying until you get one. Call in favors.

I do think in the future it will be very difficult to make the jump after too many years in retail.

 

[mustang sally]

So I think the answer is no, BCPS does not equal residency. However, is it still beneficial for someone without residency to become BCPS?

I guess I'm not sure of the answer to this question. It doesn't seem like it would be too helpful for advancing your career (especially if staying in the same job), but it doesn't seem like it would hurt to get it either (except for your pocket book).

 

[Sparda29]

I don't think the point is that you shouldn't be able to...it is whether that will be equivalent to residency training going forward with the increased number of residency trained pharmacists.

From what I've found out from people in my health-system, if you have been working for them as a staff pharmacist and then get a BCPS, you're more likely to pick up a Clinical Coordinator position than if you are someone fresh out of residency,

 

[cycloketocaine]

Z needs to stop shooting things and playing golf and come comment.

 

[moolman]

So I think the answer is no, BCPS does not equal residency. However, is it still beneficial for someone without residency to become BCPS?

I guess I'm not sure of the answer to this question. It doesn't seem like it would be too helpful for advancing your career (especially if staying in the same job), but it doesn't seem like it would hurt to get it either (except for your pocket book).

If you're already working in a hospital and thus qualify to sit for the exam and did not do a residency and especially because you did not do a residency, I would take the BCPS to show that you took the initiative to get the credentials. Even people who did do a residency don't bother to take the BCPS because there's not a big advantage, I think only a couple of employers give a pay raise for passing, one of them being the VA. So you didn't do a residency and since there is a bias, real or not, that says only the "elite" residency trained pharmacist can be clinical.. Blah... Blah... Etc, I would take the test.

 

[joetrisman]

And here I thought only fighting among pharmacists was retail vs hospital. Now residency trained vs non. Can't we all just get along?

 

[awval999]

If you're already working in a hospital and thus qualify to sit for the exam and did not do a residency and especially because you did not do a residency, I would take the BCPS to show that you took the initiative to get the credentials. Even people who did do a residency don't bother to take the BCPS because there's not a big advantage, I think only a couple of employers give a pay raise for passing, one of them being the VA. So you didn't do a residency and since there is a bias, real or not, that says only the "elite" residency trained pharmacist can be clinical.. Blah... Blah... Etc, I would take the test.

I think this is a perfect answer.

Although I think a PGY-1 should sit for the BCPS solely to "prove" that they "learned" something during residency.

 

[Sparda29]

And here I thought only fighting among pharmacists was retail vs hospital. Now residency trained vs non. Can't we all just get along?

The problem is that some of the residency elitists think that you shouldn't be able to get a pure clinical job without a residency.

 

[moolman]

The problem is that some of the residency elitists think that you shouldn't be able to get a pure clinical job without a residency.

It may be true for some I'm sure but it just may be perception. If you were a hiring manager and you had someone with PGY1 or someone with many years of work experience. You assume that the PGY1 trained person would need less training and be at speed faster than the other person. With the person with the work experience only you'd need to vet them and see what they did, see if they did clinical things etc, so some might be lazy and not want to bother to interview and just hire PGY1 trained pharmacists. So there is bias but you can see why.