Bottom 10th Percentile?

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QiasTheKid

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I have a 3.63 cGPA, 3.40 sGPA. I was told by my pre-med advisor that I should not apply to medical school this cycle because I have a bottom 10th percentile sGPA for admitted Medical Students.

Can anyone corroborate this or point me towards some AAMC charts? Additionally, if there is anyone that did apply with these stats, did you fair well? Or not? Would be very helpful for me to know.
 
I think as long as you apply early and broadly you will be fine. At least on here, many people with your stats get into MD schools and definitely DO schools. What is your MCAT score?
 
sephora89 said:
I think as long as you apply early and broadly you will be fine. At least on here, many people with your stats get into MD schools and definitely DO schools. What is your MCAT score?
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31 and I'm going to try to avoid being as douchy as possible, but I'm applying MD only because I have my heart set on surgery.
 
If you feel like you can apply with the best possible application, then go for it. I think schools consider both of your MCAT takes... Unless the other score has expired.

I'm wishing you the best!
 
QiasTheKid said:
I have a 3.63 cGPA, 3.40 sGPA. I was told by my pre-med advisor that I should not apply to medical school this cycle because I have a bottom 10th percentile sGPA for admitted Medical Students.

Can anyone corroborate this or point me towards some AAMC charts? Additionally, if there is anyone that did apply with these stats, did you fair well? Or not? Would be very helpful for me to know.
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I got multiple acceptances with both cGPA and sGPA lower than yours, with a slightly higher MCAT
 
QiasTheKid said:
I have a 3.63 cGPA, 3.40 sGPA. I was told by my pre-med advisor that I should not apply to medical school this cycle because I have a bottom 10th percentile sGPA for admitted Medical Students.

Can anyone corroborate this or point me towards some AAMC charts? Additionally, if there is anyone that did apply with these stats, did you fair well? Or not? Would be very helpful for me to know.
Click to expand...

#1 Have you heard of google? http://lmgtfy.com/?q=aamc+statistics

#2 Your GPA is a single component in figuring out your academic prowess. It is completely meaningless without more context. First, your GPA is modulated by the school you go to, your major, the rigor of your curriculum, extenuating circumstances, etc. Second, a student's MCAT will obviously answer a lot of questions regarding your ability to assimilate material.

For example, if you are a Physics/Econ major at U of Chicago taking 20 credits a semester and work 30 hours/week to provide for younger siblings, a 3.4 is going to be very different than you got a 3.4 being a Biology major at *pick most any school in the country* taking the standard 15 credits/semester. Do you get a hard 'GPA bump' because of those factors, no. Will it be seen as 'better' than a 3.7? No. But, coupled with a good MCAT score, people tend to care a lot less about a low GPA.

#3 When you have a lower GPA, you have to consider that there are thousands of applicants with a better GPA than you. Therefore, the rest of your application has to have something else that is better than them to get attention and ultimately get you in.

#4 In summary, there are people with 3.4/31s that get into medical school every single year. They are generally the people who a) applied smart/broad and b) who have strong things outside of their academic metrics that make them appealing to adcoms.
 
mimelim said:
#1 Have you heard of google? http://lmgtfy.com/?q=aamc statistics

#2 Your GPA is a single component in figuring out your academic prowess. It is completely meaningless without more context. First, your GPA is modulated by the school you go to, your major, the rigor of your curriculum, extenuating circumstances, etc. Second, a student's MCAT will obviously answer a lot of questions regarding your ability to assimilate material.

For example, if you are a Physics/Econ major at U of Chicago taking 20 credits a semester and work 30 hours/week to provide for younger siblings, a 3.4 is going to be very different than you got a 3.4 being a Biology major at *pick most any school in the country* taking the standard 15 credits/semester. Do you get a hard 'GPA bump' because of those factors, no. Will it be seen as 'better' than a 3.7? No. But, coupled with a good MCAT score, people tend to care a lot less about a low GPA.

#3 When you have a lower GPA, you have to consider that there are thousands of applicants with a better GPA than you. Therefore, the rest of your application has to have something else that is better than them to get attention and ultimately get you in.

#4 In summary, there are people with 3.4/31s that get into medical school every single year. They are generally the people who a) applied smart/broad and b) who have strong things outside of their academic metrics that make them appealing to adcoms.
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I have a 3.4 science GPA, and a 3.6 cum gpa. I was just trying to figure out if there are aamc stats on science gpas, and I have looked through the aamc tables.

:shrug:
 
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sephora89 said:
I think as long as you apply early and broadly you will be fine. At least on here, many people with your stats get into MD schools and definitely DO schools. What is your MCAT score?
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sephora89 said:
You can get into an MD school. But FYI, you can absolutely go into surgery as a DO.
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Of course they can get into a medical school with these stats, but, as mentioned above, the rest of the application has to be at the very least above average if OP wants a serious shot at MD schools. OP, if you want the best shot at getting into A medical school, apply early and to both MD and DO programs. Having your "heart set on surgery" isn't wise to begin with, but even if this is the case, you can most certainly become a surgeon as a DO.... Please do your research.
 
mimelim said:
#2 Your GPA is a single component in figuring out your academic prowess. It is completely meaningless without more context. First, your GPA is modulated by the school you go to, your major, the rigor of your curriculum, extenuating circumstances, etc. Second, a student's MCAT will obviously answer a lot of questions regarding your ability to assimilate material.
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Common issue on SDN, but so many people here have the impression that medical school acceptance can be distilled to an equation using only a couple isolated variables, namely GPA and MCAT score. While they can give some indication, trying to base one's likelihood of getting into med school solely on those two metrics is just a best-guess scenario. A few people with sub-3.0 GPAs and 25 MCATs have gotten acceptances and a few people with 4.0's and 40+ MCAT have received none. From the AAMC statistics, applicants with your numbers have a 64.7% acceptance rate (assuming non-URM). But medical school acceptance isn't a lottery (at least overall) and everything behind those numbers such as volunteer experience, clinical exposure, research, work experience, life experience, classes taken, personal statement, which med schools you applied to, when your application was submitted, interviewing skills, and so on, all play a factor in the final decisions. At this point, only you and those who know your whole story have any real idea what your chances are. So you have to decide if you have a good enough hand to play based on your ENTIRE package.

Take what your pre-med adviser said with a grain of salt. There are some good advisers out there that really understand the process, but there are some that do not. My pre-med adviser told me I should DEFINITELY re-take my pre-req classes that were older than 10 years because they were too old. I didn't follow her advice and received several acceptances this year (with a GPA a bit lower than yours). Saved myself tens of thousands of dollars and about a year by ignoring what she advised. If your pre-med adviser is offering advice solely on your GPA, than I'd be a bit wary of what she says.

With almost 50,000 applicants fighting for a little over 20,000 seats, it is a tough fight to get into medical school. Your numbers put you at about average. It is the rest of your application (and how you proceed in the process) which will determine your chances of success. Good luck.

mimelim said:
#1 Have you heard of google? http://lmgtfy.com/?q=aamc statistics
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BTW, thought that was awesome...
 
Take the advice of wise medical students above and apply broadly to both MD and DO if you want to get into a school next cycle. Speciality can wait until you get in somewhere
 
Your sGPA is well over the 10th percentile for most schools, so I'm not sure what your advisor was talking about. You'll be fine as long as you have a well-rounded application.

I can point you towards the MSAR which includes this information on a school-by-school basis.
 
While I super appreciate a lot of the advice that has been given to me (particularly applying early), I wish some SDN users would wait, read my post and then respond.

There are a million threads about applying with a 3.4 cGPA. And there's another million pointing towards AAMC Stats pages, which I really like and have looked over.

However, there isn't any literature that points towards a curve showing the distribution of applicant vs. matriculant science gpa.

A few people who have posted have answered with the assumption that 3.4 is my cGPA, which it is not.

But again, an earnest thank you to all replies.

(P.S. still think that google thing was a bit mean considering I'd looked at those stat pages, and there's no stat table devoted solely to sGPA. My premed advisor brought this up as a serious problem in my application, and I wanted some SDN advice about it).
 
Also depends on your state of residence --

Can your sGPA be raised easily with just a few classes? Are you currently a junior? And is so, how would you feel about a gap year?

And what everyone else has said -- sGPA is only one measure (albeit an important one), so gauge the strength of the rest of your application before deciding.
 
This one tells you mean for matriculants was 3.63 and SD was 0.31 so no, you definitely are not in the bottom 10% with a 3.4 sGPA.
 
lol...both posted the same chart at the same time. That was a two second Google search, btw.
 
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It's doable. Take everyone's advice to apply smart and broadly. I was researching at least 3 months ahead- invested in both the MSAR and USNews and stalking SDN. I also added a state DO school. You should add a few DO schools.

I'm also in the bottom 10th percentile at many of the schools I applied to, but got 6 interviews. I do think our stats may keep us on the waitlist though, instead of receiving an outright acceptance. Which sucks 🙁 , hoping for the best...
 
QiasTheKid said:
While I super appreciate a lot of the advice that has been given to me (particularly applying early), I wish some SDN users would wait, read my post and then respond.

There are a million threads about applying with a 3.4 cGPA. And there's another million pointing towards AAMC Stats pages, which I really like and have looked over.

However, there isn't any literature that points towards a curve showing the distribution of applicant vs. matriculant science gpa.

A few people who have posted have answered with the assumption that 3.4 is my cGPA, which it is not.

But again, an earnest thank you to all replies.

(P.S. still think that google thing was a bit mean considering I'd looked at those stat pages, and there's no stat table devoted solely to sGPA. My premed advisor brought this up as a serious problem in my application, and I wanted some SDN advice about it).
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The point is that in my opinion (as well as the opinion of others on this board), you and your adviser are focusing WAY to much on one number that BY ITSELF tells you very little about your chances of getting into medical school. Even more so because you're trying to drill down to the matriculant science GPA. Your numbers are slightly below average but definitely not in the red flag range (my sGPA is slightly lower than yours). So the big question is how the rest of your application looks.

As others have mentioned on your other thread, I would pursue that Fulbright ETA and gain some experience and insight. Get beyond the checklist of what you need to do just to get into med school and pursue what will contribute to your personal growth and development. Hopefully that growth will reflect in your future application and help to distinguish you from others applying to medical school. If you wish to strengthen your numbers, though, then take some post-bacc classes after your year in Thailand. Just don't get target fixated on ONLY the numbers.
 
Btw, assuming a bell curve, you'd be 23rd percentile if you were curious. Not quite so bad as bottom 10% but definitely means you need something else really attractive in your app to make up for it, like great research, extensive service, a really strong MCAT, or being african american
 
Sadly, your advisor shares an affliction with many other advisors, meaning s/he is a full of bovine excrement. Does this person even know what MSAR is????

A quick and random glance at MSAR Online (a wise investment) at four schools shows that you are, in fect, quite average, and thus competitive.

Albany (10th percentiles for cGPA and sGPA are: 3.3 and 3.1)
Duke: 3.6 and 3.4!
IU: 3.4 and 3.3
Keck/USC: 3.5 and 3.4

So pack up your advisor in a sack and sell him at a greenhouse.

The key thing with these numbers is to see how far yours are from the target school's median.


QiasTheKid said:
I have a 3.63 cGPA, 3.40 sGPA. I was told by my pre-med advisor that I should not apply to medical school this cycle because I have a bottom 10th percentile sGPA for admitted Medical Students.

Can anyone corroborate this or point me towards some AAMC charts? Additionally, if there is anyone that did apply with these stats, did you fair well? Or not? Would be very helpful for me to know.
Click to expand...
 
efle said:
Btw, assuming a bell curve, you'd be 23rd percentile if you were curious. Not quite so bad as bottom 10% but definitely means you need something else really attractive in your app to make up for it, like great research, extensive service, a really strong MCAT, or being african american
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Lol I'm not African American so...haha.

And how did you come upon 23rd percentile? Assuming 68% of all applicants are within 1 std dev of the mean (which is 3.63 for last year), I'd be above the 32nd percentile for sure.

1 std dev = (3.32 - 3.94).
 
Some advisors are just absolutely useless. I wish universities would hire more informed staff and actually monitor the advice they give out. The amount of terrible advice given each year by these people, who are suppose to be our guides, is just absolutely atrocious.
 
QiasTheKid said:
Lol I'm not African American so...haha.

And how did you come upon 23rd percentile? Assuming 68% of all applicants are within 1 std dev of the mean (which is 3.63 for last year), I'd be above the 32nd percentile for sure.

1 std dev = (3.32 - 3.94).
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Got the other stuff though?

You want a one-sided calculation in this case, 22.6% behind you in the left tail of the curve (a 0.752 z score)
 
Goro said:
Sadly, your advisor shares an affliction with many other advisors, meaning s/he is a full of bovine excrement. Does this person even know what MSAR is????

A quick and random glance at MSAR Online (a wise investment) at four schools shows that you are, in fect, quite average, and thus competitive.

Albany (10th percentiles for cGPA and sGPA are: 3.3 and 3.1)
Duke: 3.6 and 3.4!
IU: 3.4 and 3.3
Keck/USC: 3.5 and 3.4

So pack up your advisor in a sack and sell him at a greenhouse.

The key thing with these numbers is to see how far yours are from the target school's median.
Click to expand...
Thanks for this. I know my science GPA is not perfect, but I was surprised at her horrified look when we calculated it up. I don't know, she was of the opinion that there was no way an MD or DO school would look at my application if I had a science GPA below 3.5.

Part of my frustration is that she also said that the committee cannot write a letter on my behalf until I have a sGPA of above 3.5. I don't know how this will affect me.
 
Does MD admissions really follow the 68-95-99.7 rule? Nobody can be more than 1.24 standard deviations ABOVE the median, because it's impossible to have a GPA higher than 4.0.

Anyway, your advisor is probably basing their decision on success rates from your individual school. The kids with 3.63s from State U aren't getting in, but the kids with 3.63s from Princeton are.
 
Just dont worry about committee letter. Get your own letters to meet the requirements. However, if others from your school go through committee and get the letter, I am not sure how that may look on you if you do not have one
 
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Goro said:
A quick and random glance at MSAR Online (a wise investment) at four schools shows that you are, in fect, quite average, and thus competitive.

Albany (10th percentiles for cGPA and sGPA are: 3.3 and 3.1)
Duke: 3.6 and 3.4
IU: 3.4 and 3.3
Keck/USC: 3.5 and 3.4
Click to expand...

For a non-minority applicant, being at or near the 10th percentile isn't really competitive is it? Albany would be the only "match" and even then he's below the 3.6 sGPA median.

QiasTheKid said:
Thanks for this. I know my science GPA is not perfect, but I was surprised at her horrified look when we calculated it up. I don't know, she was of the opinion that there was no way an MD or DO school would look at my application if I had a science GPA below 3.5.

Part of my frustration is that she also said that the committee cannot write a letter on my behalf until I have a sGPA of above 3.5. I don't know how this will affect me.
Click to expand...

What kind of school would screw over their students with numbers average for med applicants?
 
Doug Underhill said:
Does MD admissions really follow the 68-95-99.7 rule? Nobody can be more than 1.24 standard deviations ABOVE the median, because it's impossible to have a GPA higher than 4.0.

Anyway, your advisor is probably basing their decision on success rates from your individual school. The kids with 3.63s from State U aren't getting in, but the kids with 3.63s from Princeton are.
Click to expand...
There is probably a second peak around 4.00 for all the people who were way off the charts, much like the 2400 SAT mark having more people earn it than 2380 or 2390


PlaqueBuster said:
Just dont worry about committee letter. Get your own letters to meet the requirements. However, if others from your school go through committee and get the letter, I am not sure how that may look on you if you do not have one
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IIRC I once saw an adcom say it's only a problem if you're from a school they're familiar with and they notice your lack of committee letter where there ought to be one
 
Doug Underhill said:
Anyway, your advisor is probably basing their decision on success rates from your individual school. The kids with 3.63s from State U aren't getting in, but the kids with 3.63s from Princeton are.
Click to expand...

Really?
 
QiasTheKid said:
Really?
Click to expand...

Just a guess, but there's a report released by AAMC that suggests that "prestige of private universities" is an important factor considered by adcoms. Some schools have an elite private "feeder" university: UNC takes a lot of Duke kids, for example.
 
QiasTheKid said:
Really?
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He has no way to back this up with numbers. It's true that middling GPAs from top schools have far greater success than middling GPAs from average schools, but I really doubt the Ivy League contributes enough premeds to the 50,000 annual applicants to move the median far from where it would reside with only typical schools
 
Doug Underhill said:
Just a guess, but there's a report released by AAMC that suggests that "prestige of private universities" is an important factor considered by adcoms only at private med schools, wheras public med schools state this is of very little importance. Some schools have an elite private "feeder" university: UNC takes a lot of Duke kids, for example.
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FTFY, also everywhere takes a lot of Duke kids lol
 
The Ivies definitely don't on their own, but what about the USNWR Top 20?

I mean, if you go to a state school, I'm not saying you need a 4.0, but you may need a little extra oomph somewhere.
 
Doug Underhill said:
The Ivies definitely don't on their own, but what about the USNWR Top 20?

I mean, if you go to a state school, I'm not saying you need a 4.0, but you may need a little extra oomph somewhere.
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I dunno, wustl is notoriously premed heavy and we only turn out about 275 a year, but it's just one of those questions we'll never have enough data access to answer

Depends where you're applying I guess
 
well for what it's worth, I had a ~3.4 cgpa/sgpa and a 34 MCAT this cycle and had no luck with MD whatsoever. I did receive DO acceptances and plan to matriculate with goals of becoming a surgeon while keeping an open mind 😉

Edit: as far as my MD application strategy, I followed the rules of applying early and broadly. disappointed in how it all turned out but not going to let letters after my name hold me back
 
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MaybeDr said:
Some advisors are just absolutely useless. I wish universities would hire more informed staff and actually monitor the advice they give out. The amount of terrible advice given each year by these people, who are suppose to be our guides, is just absolutely atrocious.
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Agreed.

However the entire process is such a crap shoot, these advisers can't be taken to task for dumb things they say because there's always a way to spin it to make it sound right.

The internet is your best source of information.
 
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Spinach Dip said:
Agreed.

However the entire process is such a crap shoot, these advisers can't be taken to task for dumb things they say because there's always a way to spin it to make it sound right.

The internet is your best source of information.
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They may not be dumb, just very protective of the admit rate for premeds they endorse with a committee letter. Can't let those 3.4's think they have a good shot if you want most of your premeds getting in somewhere!

And tbh, SDN gives garbage advice sometimes too (university prestige doesn't matter,there's no huge differences in difficulty to keep a good GPA at top vs average university, DO has just as great of options for competitive specialties, etc)
 
100% agree. You'll just need to do your homework and target schools that don not demand committee LORs.
PlaqueBuster said:
Just dont worry about committee letter. Get your own letters to meet the requirements. However, if others from your school go through committee and get the letter, I am not sure how that may look on you if you do not have one
Click to expand...

It's in striking distance, but it also depends upon how far away from the school's median it is. If the school's median is 3.6, then it's a go-for. But a 3.9? I'd say take a pass. Unless one has some really killer ECs AND MCAT score.

For a non-minority applicant, being at or near the 10th percentile isn't really competitive is it? Albany would be the only "match" and even then he's below the 3.6 sGPA median.
 
efle said:
And tbh, SDN gives garbage advice sometimes too
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No doubt.

But there is usually someone around to refute the garbage given by the average SDN poster. OTOH, when sitting in an advisers office, there is no second voice saying "Hey! That's BS!"
 
Spinach Dip said:
No doubt.

But there is usually someone around to refute the garbage given by the average SDN poster. OTOH, when sitting in an advisers office, there is no second voice saying "Hey! That's BS!"
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I've had to tell my sibling to check in with me for anything remotely related to the premed process after their adviser said to take a pre-req during a semester abroad, and that med schools will still see the grades from abroad even though their college converts everything to pass/fail on their transcript. It's like they're actively sabotaging
 
Doug Underhill said:
Just a guess, but there's a report released by AAMC that suggests that "prestige of private universities" is an important factor considered by adcoms. Some schools have an elite private "feeder" university: UNC takes a lot of Duke kids, for example.
Click to expand...
AAMC has a ton of reports, could you link to this report?
 
Agree that you aren't the bottom 10%.

But someone has to be. And you know what? Those in the bottom percentile of stats at each medical school are in medical school just as much as those in the top percentile of stats. And med school is a completely different ballgame and a new opportunity to bring your best A game.
 
@gyngyn
I was using the number of students completing Ochem, forgot about the group that takes it in summer at other schools. 350! Wow
 
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