Boycott Med school until tuition lowers?

[ChrisMack390]

Student loan debt is a massive problem.

Physicians who make 2, 3, 4 hundred thousand dollars or more per year are not bearing the brunt of this problem...

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[Tired]

Very true. As others have said I'm angry we have no power over this and the government seems to only make things worse. American education financing is so backwards compared to the rest of the world.

You mean the rest of the world, where people think it doesn't actually cost money to provide education, and the populace genuinely believes that everything should be provided free of charge to them?

 

[Lucca]

You mean the rest of the world, where people think it doesn't actually cost money to provide education, and the populace genuinely believes that everything should be provided free of charge to them?

No, he probably means the rest of the world where people don't think it should cost anything to receive an education and then choose to collectively pay for it as a society.

 

[guest794]

No, he probably means the rest of the world where people don't think it should cost anything to receive an education and then choose to collectively pay for it as a society.

Compare debt-level, quality of education, and salary of a Canadian MD to a US MD and no one is getting short-changed in Canada. The student is bearing the brunt of the short-changing in the US because of misplaced priorities. Heck compare American MDs 20 years ago to MDs today. The only difference is increased student debt and more money for people who don't need it in 2015.

 

[Tired]

No, he probably means the rest of the world where people don't think it should cost anything to receive an education and then choose to collectively pay for it as a society.

Which means that paradoxically the overall cost is higher, just hidden. Fortunately we haven't chosen to build that kind of society.

Hey OP, maybe these guys can help?

 

[lmn]

You should care as should all pre-meds. It's a serious financial investment with diminishing returns.


The field of medicine is in general not "a very lucrative field", not that I expect it to be considering lost opportunity cost/years of education including undergrad./grad school/residency. I have a problem with high interest rates and being 200k in debt for the level of commitment involved in becoming and practicing as a doctor.

Lol what is your idea of lucrative? Net earnings 500k+/yr? 1M? Beach houses in Hawaii, Cancun, etc?

Care to show some excel sheets of your calculations of how poor of a financial outlook it is for a newly graduating MD with 200k in loans? You seem to claim that everyone graduating with these types of loans aren't ever going to pay them off, and aren't going to be able to afford anything, I would like to see what kind of math you are doing to come to this conclusion.

 

[guest794]

Lol what is your idea of lucrative? Net earnings 500k+/yr? 1M? Beach houses in Hawaii, Cancun, etc?

Care to show some excel sheets of your calculations of how poor of a financial outlook it is for a newly graduating MD with 200k in loans? You seem to claim that everyone graduating with these types of loans aren't ever going to pay them off, and aren't going to be able to afford anything, I would like to see what kind of math you are doing to come to this conclusion.

Have you heard of compounding interest rates? And ridiculous shout-out to occupy wall street. We don't need to have interest rates at 7% to get a quality education assuming this rate is fair to the loan servicers and would somehow shortchange the average taxpayer by lowering it.

 

[Mad Jack]

Well, I'm adding the house to your med school debt. We all have to buy a house sometime right?

You don't have to buy a house that expensive, holy crap. Clearly your lifestyle expectations are the problem here.

 

[Mad Jack]

If you think interest rates should be tied to the market rate for professional school loans and the tuition isn't a problem you must have very rich parents or have no friends in the business world.

I'm willing to pay for the valuable service being provided. Feel free to not attend if it does not suit your tastes, you won't be missed.

 

[ChrisMack390]

I can't believe this is a real topic. Live meagerly for 1 or 2 years post med school and you can pay back your loans. Then you have hundreds of thousands of income for 30+ years...

 

[Tired]

Have you heard of compounding interest rates? And ridiculous shout-out to occupy wall street. We don't need to make students poor to get a quality education.

Has it occurred to you yet that many of the people you are arguing with actually have the debt that you are so concerned about?

Does it make you think twice when those people, who are actually living the situation you are concerned about, tell you that it's not a problem?

Have you explored the numerous other methods that people use to pay for medical school, such as defined periods of service to underserved populations, or governmental loan repayment programs?

Or is it simply that you believe you are entitled to a free education without any responsibility to wider the society that you want to pay for your life of luxury?

 

[guest794]

I'm willing to pay for the valuable service being provided. Feel free to not attend if it does not suit your tastes, you won't be missed.

It's not black and white. The cost of education might not be impossibly high yet but it is getting there, for both undergrad. and grad. school professional programs. If you fail to understand this enjoy helping pay for your kids higher education as well as your own until you die.

 

[mehc012]

Well, I'm adding the house to your med school debt. We all have to buy a house sometime right?

Nope. My family never plans to. I'm personally undecided on the matter. I don't need an anchor weighing me down in one town...

 

[teambert]

Care to show some excel sheets of your calculations of how poor of a financial outlook it is for a newly graduating MD with 200k in loans?

To be fair, many students are going to come out of school with more than 200k. Graduating from my state school will be 240k. I imagine it's a lot more for a private school. Agree with the rest.

I don't see why we can't say:

1 -- You're not going to be living as nice a life as you probably think. It'll be business class, not first class.

2 -- It's still a good financial decision.

 

[guest794]

Yo

Has it occurred to you yet that many of the people you are arguing with actually have the debt that you are so concerned about?

Does it make you think twice when those people, who are actually living the situation you are concerned about, tell you that it's not a problem?

Have you explored the numerous other methods that people use to pay for medical school, such as defined periods of service to underserved populations, or governmental loan repayment programs?

Or is it simply that you believe you are entitled to a free education without any responsibility to wider the society that you want to pay for your life of luxury?

You're right, med. students don't pay enough for their education, and are lucky Sallie Mae offers them such generous terms of income-based repayment loans while compounding interest rates make them appreciate their education value all the more. Most doctors have access to serve in underserved areas for 10 years or just go into the military to get it paid off. There is nothing wrong with student debt.

 

[ChrisMack390]

Has it occurred to you yet that many of the people you are arguing with actually have the debt that you are so concerned about?

Does it make you think twice when those people, who are actually living the situation you are concerned about, tell you that it's not a problem?

Have you explored the numerous other methods that people use to pay for medical school, such as defined periods of service to underserved populations, or governmental loan repayment programs?

Or is it simply that you believe you are entitled to a free education without any responsibility to wider the society that you want to pay for your life of luxury?

This is a great point. We have taxpayer funded medical education in the US too - you just have to actually do something for society to earn it.

 

[Tired]

You're right, med. students don't pay enough for their education, and are lucky Sallie Mae offers them such generous terms of income-based repayment loans while compounding interest rates make them appreciate their education value all the more. Most doctors have access to serve in undeserved areas for 10 years or just go into the military to get it paid off. There is nothing wrong with student debt.

So no actual answers to the questions I asked? Just sarcasm?

Have you looked into other ways to pay for school? Do you find it odd that you are worried about this despite not having gone through it, while those who are living it are unworried?

 

[Promethean]

Why are we engaging trolls today?

Agree with them. Encourage them to boycott. Net result: Win for common sense and everyone who doesn't have to be their future classmate.

 

[Lucca]

Which means that paradoxically the overall cost is higher, just hidden. Fortunately we haven't chosen to build that kind of society.

Hey OP, maybe these guys can help?

The overall cost is certainly not higher considering we spend more per student in education (and far more per patient in healthcare) then every other industrialized country on the planet. When even the neo-conservative European parties that want to ethnically cleanse their countries of all inferior races (yes, those still exist) agree with free education and healthcare then you might need to rethink what position your arguing from.

 

[Mad Jack]

It's not black and white. The cost of education might not be impossibly high yet but it is getting there, for both undergrad. and grad. school professional programs. If you fail to understand this enjoy helping pay for your kids higher education as well as your own until you die.

I'm not paying for the education of my children. I paid my own way through undergrad, and I'll pay my own way through medical school, and I expect the same of any child of mine.

 

[ChrisMack390]

Yo


You're right, med. students don't pay enough for their education, and are lucky Sallie Mae offers them such generous terms of income-based repayment loans while compounding interest rates make them appreciate their education value all the more. Most doctors have access to serve in underserved areas for 10 years or just go into the military to get it paid off. There is nothing wrong with student debt.

Wait why is this a problem? I personally am not a fan of the military option, but is it really so bad to ask doctors to serve their country, provide healthcare to the people that need it most, or even just stick around in the state they are trained in?

I ultimately want to end up on neurology or oncology, but you can be damn sure I will work in family or peds in a high needs area for 4 years in exchange for FREE SCHOOL. I am confused as to how anyone would not do that....

 

[Tired]

Why are we engaging trolls today?

Because I don't think this is a troll. I think this is a young undergrad student, who for the first time is being forced to confront having to take care of himself and make hard life choices. His youth is rebelling against the idea that everything isn't going to be handed to him.

When you meet someone like that, you need to give them the back of your hand (metaphorically) and tell them to grow up.

Grow up, OP. Welcome to the real world.

 

[guest794]

Why are we engaging trolls today?

Agree with them. Encourage them to boycott. Net result: Win for common sense and everyone who doesn't have to be their future classmate.

It's encouraging to see someone so complacent about the unreasonable cost of education today.

 

[lmn]

Have you heard of compounding interest rates? And ridiculous shout-out to occupy wall street. We don't need to have interest rates at 7% to get a quality education assuming this rate is fair to the loan servicers and would somehow shortchange the average taxpayer by lowering it.

I have, and I made multiple models to figure out how the next 20-30 years of my life would be with my compounding interest during school, residency, fellowships (both if I did one and not), and as various types of attendings. Of course my first house and what not will be delayed by going to med school compared to many of my friends, but that would have still been 10+ years delayed compared to them simply because of school and residency, even if I paid $0 for med school. But I know that I will easily be able to pay of my debt and not be dirt poor. Please show any models showing your opinion.

 

[Tired]

When even the neo-conservative European parties that want to ethnically cleanse their countries of all inferior races (yes, those still exist) agree with free education and healthcare then you might need to rethink what position your arguing from.

Wait, I need to agree with state-sponsored higher education because European Neo-Nazi parties agree with state-sponsored higher education?

I feel like it should be opposite.

 

[Lucca]

Wait, I need to agree with state-sponsored higher education because European Neo-Nazi parties agree with state-sponsored higher education?

I feel like it should be opposite.

The point is that even the crazy people who hate everyone think that those policies are fair and should be maintained. It is literally not even a topic up for discussion in European politics.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I have, and I made multiple models to figure out how the next 20-30 years of my life would be with my compounding interest during school, residency, fellowships (both if I did one and not), and as various types of attendings. Of course my first house and what not will be delayed by going to med school compared to many of my friends, but that would have still been 10+ years delayed compared to them simply because of school and residency, even if I paid $0 for med school. But I know that I will easily be able to pay of my debt and not be dirt poor. Please show any models showing your opinion.

Agreed.

As @Tired said, many of us are actively living life with these loans and both know and have planned for how to manage our lives with them. I have a financial plan that I'm very happy with in the long term.

I also manage to (gasp!!) manage a comfortable life on my current residency salary.

 

[guest794]

Wait, I need to agree with state-sponsored higher education because European Neo-Nazi parties agree with state-sponsored higher education?

I feel like it should be opposite.

From emedert.com "According to this U.S. News & World Report article, the average amount of debt medical school students graduated with in 1992 was $50,000, which equates to just over $84,000 in 2014 when adjusted for inflation. Today, the average med school student graduates with more than twice as much debt as the average student did just over 20 years ago. These numbers all lead to the burning question: Is it worth it? Is it worth almost a decade of rigorous curriculum and training so physically and mentally demanding that it leads to exhaustion and nearly insurmountable debt? ...we’ll see a steady supply of bright, promising individuals who once dreamed of becoming a doctor, decide to pursue a career in business or finance to avoid the financial restrictions of becoming a doctor in the first place.At this moment, the underlying facts are that medical students today are graduating with an exorbitant amount of debt, and solving that problem will indeed be a monumental struggle. It may be an uphill battle, but it’s undoubtedly a necessary one. What remains to be seen though, is just how bad it needs to get until we’re forced to change."

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

The point is that even the crazy people who hate everyone think that those policies are fair and should be maintained. It is literally not even a topic up for discussion in European politics.

There are a lot of cultural differences between European countries and the US that don't follow party lines and ultimately makes these attempted comparisons moo.

 

[lmn]

we’ll see a steady supply of bright, promising individuals who once dreamed of becoming a doctor, decide to pursue a career in business or finance to avoid the financial restrictions of becoming a doctor in the first place

You must not know many physicians, medical students, or premeds. 99%++ of these people are absolutely terrible candidates for business or finance. Just because they are "smart" in medicine/science, doesn't transfer the slightest to other industries. Stop thinking that just because it is difficult to become a physician, that any of these people would necessarily be successful at business, tech, engineering, etc.

 

[guest794]

You must not know many physicians, medical students, or premeds. 99%++ of these people are absolutely terrible candidates for business or finance. Just because they are "smart" in medicine/science, doesn't transfer the slightest to other industries. Stop thinking that just because it is difficult to become a physician, that any of these people would necessarily be successful at business, tech, engineering, etc.

Anyone who makes it to med. school could find an alternative if they were forced to. And don't get me started on business majors.

 

[Lucca]

There are a lot of cultural differences between European countries and the US that don't follow party lines and ultimately makes these attempted comparisons moo.

If by cultural differences you mean willing and able to provide for their entire citizenry out of respect for their dignity with a system that has been proven to work and everyone continues to endorse then yah I agree.

 

[guest794]

There are a lot of cultural differences between European countries and the US that don't follow party lines and ultimately makes these attempted comparisons moo.

How about slashing the bloated defense budget and investing in things that matter like education, healthcare and infrastructure?

 

[Mad Jack]

Wait why is this a problem? I personally am not a fan of the military option, but is it really so bad to ask doctors to serve their country, provide healthcare to the people that need it most, or even just stick around in the state they are trained in?

I ultimately want to end up on neurology or oncology, but you can be damn sure I will work in family or peds in a high needs area for 4 years in exchange for FREE SCHOOL. I am confused as to how anyone would not do that....

The military is way more than just four years of service for free school, despite what some recruiters might have you believe...

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

How about slashing the bloated defense budget and investing in things that matter like education, healthcare and infrastructure?

Do you get all of your talking points and education from watching John Oliver, or do you sprinkle in a healthy dose of John Stewart for variety?

 

[Tired]

As @Tired said, many of us are actively living life with these loans and both know and have planned for how to manage our lives with them. I have a financial plan that I'm very happy with in the long term.

I also manage to (gasp!!) manage a comfortable life on my current residency salary.

Exactly.

Or you could do what I did. I'm active duty military. My wife doesn't work. My two kids have everything they need. I own the home I live in, and I own two rental properties on top of that. My credit score is 800+. And I'm a PGY4 resident.

And unlike the OP, I don't have a dad who is a doctor. My entire education (to include living expenses) was self-financed with a little hard work and willingness to sacrifice.

But I digress, let's back to the important issue at hand: America is totally unfair and those lousy medical schools are ripping us off.

 

[Mad Jack]

How about slashing the bloated defense budget and investing in things that matter like education, healthcare and infrastructure?

Spoken like a true amateur that is completely uneducated in geopolitics and the complexities of government spending.

 

[guest794]

Do you get all of your talking points and education from watching John Oliver, or do you sprinkle in a healthy dose of John Stewart for variety?

Was that an argument or a pointless ad hominem attack that serves no purpose?

 

[Tired]

Was that an argument or a pointless ad hominem attack that serves no purpose?

You should look up the definition of words like ad hominem before you use them.

 

[ChrisMack390]

The military is way more than just four years of service for free school, despite what some recruiters might have you believe...

I am more interested in the Department of Health and Human Services. For 4 years in a rural area they pay your entire loan burden. And a 100,000/year or more salary.

 

[guest794]

Spoken like a true amateur that is completely uneducated in geopolitics and the complexities of government spending.

The complexities of government spending that are never wasted on things like increasing the stagnant National Institutes of Health research budget, increasing medicare compensation to hospitals/physicians, and never putting corporate interests above the common good.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Was that an argument or a pointless ad hominem attack that serves no purpose?

It was an appropriate response to the reductio ad absurdum that has already taken place.

 

[guest794]

You should look up the definition of words like ad hominem before you use them.

Ad hominem (Latin) means “against the man”. As the name suggests, it is a literary term that involves commenting on or against an opponent to undermine him instead of his arguments.

 

[Mad Jack]

I am more interested in the Department of Health and Human Services. For 4 years in a rural area they pay your entire loan burden. And a 100,000/year or more salary.

The scholarships are highly competitive and specialty limited, however.

 

[ChrisMack390]

Scholarships yes - they don't want to prospectively hand out 200K.

Loan reimbursement much less so. And they pay the interest/there is no interest, so who cares?

And yes, you can't go to plastic surgery in an underserved area. You can, however, serve some people who need it for a few years and then go do a fellowship in whatever the hell you want.

 

[lmn]

Anyone who makes it to med. school could find an alternative if they were forced to. And don't get me started on business majors.

Ya and you think any of these people could make it into business and be pulling 150k+ jobs? You are sounding like one of the naive premeds that think they could easily go into IB or the likes if they didn't want to do medicine.

 

[dog_swag]

All of this talk of debt...Jesse, it's time to cook!

 

[guest794]

Ya and you think any of these people could make it into business and be pulling 150k+ jobs? You are sounding like one of the naive premeds that think they could easily go into IB or the likes if they didn't want to do medicine.

Even if I could I wouldn't have the desire to. Pre-meds or any pre-health-related career don't do it for the money.

Ya and you think any of these people could make it into business and be pulling 150k+ jobs? You are sounding like one of the naive premeds that think they could easily go into IB or the likes if they didn't want to do medicine.

Didn't say that. Most pre-med majors don't choose business because they have no desire to major in business. They find it impossibly boring. I know I do. Doesn't mean we can't succeed in a variety of meaningful careers if push came to shove

 

[Tired]

I am more interested in the Department of Health and Human Services. For 4 years in a rural area they pay your entire loan burden. And a 100,000/year or more salary.

This is a solid option. Other options include the the National Health Service Corps and Indian Health Service, both of which offer loan repayment programs.

And there is also the US Public Health Service, which is a uniformed branch of the military, but doesn't involve nearly as much military silliness as the other branches. The big advantages of the UHPHS are that you get full military benefits, and there are only a few specialties (primarily surgical subspecialties) that are not accepted. You can be a USPHS General Surgeon, then pursue a fellowship after your service is done.

 

[guest794]

This is a solid option. Other options include the the National Health Service Corps and Indian Health Service, both of which offer loan repayment programs.

And there is also the US Public Health Service, which is a uniformed branch of the military, but doesn't involve nearly as much military silliness as the other branches. The big advantages of the UHPHS are that you get full military benefits, and there are only a few specialties (primarily surgical subspecialties) that are not accepted.

These options aren't feasible for the majority of people. It's not as easy as you make it sound.