Boycott TPR

[sophiejane]

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So I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I was just perusing around looking up something unrelated and I found this on the Princeton Review website:

"Osteopathic doctors have a much harder time obtaining residency spots than allopaths, so consider this when deciding whether or not to apply to osteopathic schools. The NRMP also points out that the lower rate for osteopaths is partly due to the fact that they can be appointed outside of the Match. If you want a high-profile residency or career, you should think carefully before applying to an osteopathic medical school, because there is still some prejudice about the prestige of the D.O. degree. On the other hand, if you want to practice primary care (as most D.O.s do), a D.O. degree could be a good choice."

That's a riot. It is so full of misinformation I hardly know where to begin.

My favorite part is "if you want a high-profile residency or career..." Um, what the heck is a "high-profile" career in medicine? Are we talking about rockstars here, or doctors?

I just wanted to assure you pre-med folks that if you feel DO is the right way to go for you, you are not going to have a "much harder time obtaining residency spots." This is completely false and actually the opposite is true because you have all the AOA spots as well as most of the ACGME spots open to you.

Hopefully someone with more time on their hands than me can lobby the PTR to stop spreading lies about the DO degree.

But then again, it makes sense. Of course they discourage applying to DO schools. They want the money from all the desperate pre-meds who think that TPR is their ticket to a 45, and without a 45, their careers in medicine will be dismal, they will be poor, "low profile" and utter failures.

Well, we know better. 🙂

 

[Adapt]

I kind of agree with what TPR says. It is a bit harder to specialize as a DO. You can't argue that.

Plus, their review course allowed me to do decently on the MCAT.

 

[jonb12997]

Very well said. Good Job. 🙂

 

[sophiejane]

I meant TPR as in The Princetone Review, not PTR!

I am thinking about the PTR (patient treatment room) because I have an OMM practical in it soon...!

 

[sophiejane]

Originally posted by Slickness
I kind of agree with what TPR says. It is a bit harder to specialize as a DO. You can't argue that.

Um, yes I can. I just have a neuro test to study for so I'm not going to. Anyway, we've been down that road. I will grant you the "bit" part of that statement, but if and only if you are planning to go allo for your residency and you want a more competitive specialty like rads or derm. There are plenty of spots in AOA programs in almost every specialty, plus loads in ACGME programs that go unfilled every year.

You are not in medical school yet, Slickness. With all due respect, you don't really know what you are talking about.

Let's chat about this more when you matriculate. In the meantime, let's keep the broad sweeping statements that you love to make as though they were facts to a minimum.

🙂

 

[sophiejane]

I realize there are not enough AOA spots for all the DO grads and that is why many of us have to do allo residencues. I meant that there are AOA spots for specialties and a lot of people overlook this because they think you have to go allo in order to specialize.

Over and out.

 

[Adapt]

Originally posted by sophiejane
You are not in medical school yet, Slickness. With all due respect, you don't really know what you are talking about.

Let's chat about this more when you matriculate. In the meantime, let's keep the broad sweeping statements that you love to make as though they were facts to a minimum.

You're funny. Lots of people would agree with me that it is a bit harder to specialize and get into a tough residency as a DO vs an MD. My FP who is a DO told me this and if I wanted to even do general surgery I should go to Temple instead of a DO school.

I'm not ignorant to the issue as you make me out to be. I have done my research on the whole DO vs MD and many people have told me including DOs themselves that if I wanted to specialize I should go MD.

Please be informed yourself before you act condescendingly toward me. After all, if it's printed in TPR and in other books like by that Iserson guy who are probably more informed than you, then perhaps there may be some truth to it.

 

[Adapt]

Originally posted by sophiejane
In the meantime, let's keep the broad sweeping statements that you love to make as though they were facts to a minimum.

Oh and as for those broad sweeping statements. How about this one you made in another thread.

Originally posted by sophiejane
1. if you are interested in doing rads, plastics, etc. and want an easier ride into an allopathic residency, GO MD

Stop contradicting yourself! Don't you just love that search feature.😉

 

[Alexander99]

I agree with Slickness. I've done my research too and because I plan to specialize, I did not consider applying to DO schools. The fact is that DO is just fine if you want to be a general practitioner but not so great if you want to get into a competitive residency.

I think the statement about a high-profile career is the fact that everyone knows what an MD is but most of the general public has no idea what a DO is. I know that until I started the application process, I thought a DO was like a nurse practitioner. I know tons of MD applicants that still have no idea what a DO is. In this regard, I agree with what the Princeton Review has to say.

 

[sophiejane]

I knew I shouldn't get into this...but now I have to say one thing and then I really am turning the computer OFF and studying!

My whole beef with people spouting off on SDN is that often their information comes from one or two people they talked to, or a book that was written several years ago (I haven't read the Iserson so I won't comment on it)...

The deal is, no one can say definitively one way or another about the whole residency thing. It is individual and subjective. Your FP probably did a residency a number of years ago and he/she is going from their own subjective personal experience.

I had an MD who is a director of an allopathic residency program in a major urban area tell me to go DO rather than to another in-state MD school (which is well-known and reputable) because he said I will get a better education at the DO school. That was enough for me.

So I am now at a school that consistently matches 90% of its grads to allo residency programs in almost all specialites (among them Mayo, Hopkins, Emory etc.) Big deal. I went where I felt I should be.

SO that's MY personal subjective experience.

Who's to say that the residency program you want won't turn up their nose at Temple, as well? (not to knock Temple, I am just making a point).

I am telling you that right now, today, I have been told by MDs and DOs alike that it will not be an issue for me to get into a good residency program if I meet their expectations (which are the same for MD and DO students except at a very very small minority of programs).

You do what your heart tells you to do, Slickness. It really sounds to me like you are leaning toward Temple and surgery. Go for it then, and don't look back. If you have any reservations whatsoever, I urge you to just do the MD, because you probably won't be happy as a DO.

Best of luck.

 

[sophiejane]

Originally posted by Slickness
Oh and as for those broad sweeping statements. How about this one you made in another thread.


Stop contradicting yourself! Don't you just love that search feature.😉

I know you know where the search button is, sweetie.

And the last time you quoted me on that comment, I explained to you that you had taken it out of context and in that statement I was replying to people who had their minds made up that they wanted a "easy ride" into an allo residency. (I think I also suggested you'd be great in law school).

Then I stated that I didn't want anyone who had had an easy ride into anything as my doc. That's kinda scary.

okay. Going away now. Really. 🙂

Ciao.

 

[Adapt]

Originally posted by sophiejane
You do what your heart tells you to do, Slickness. It really sounds to me like you are leaning toward Temple and surgery. Go for it then, and don't look back. If you have any reservations whatsoever, I urge you to just do the MD, because you probably won't be happy as a DO.

Best of luck.

You're funnier than I thought. I want to be an FP and for various reasons with the main one being location, I will probably choose the DO school, COMP over Temple. I have no reservations making this decision.

However, just because I will probably be a future DO, doesn't mean I'm oblivious to the opportunities as a DO. As I said before, most people would agree with me that it is harder to specialize as a DO. Does that statement make me anti-DO? No. It's just my opinion.

I like the DO philosophy and do think OMM would be an advantage. However, I also believe that DOs would make the best primary care physicians and as such should stick to that.

So please, do not assume things about me just because I may not agree with you on that aspect of the whole DO vs. MD argument.

 

[DOtobe]

I boycotted TPR a long time ago. Their message board was an absolute joke. Thank God for SDN which is a little bit more civilized!

(most of the time at least) 😱

 

[Alexander99]

Originally posted by sophiejane
I knew I shouldn't get into this...but now I have to say one thing and then I really am turning the computer OFF and studying!

My whole beef with people spouting off on SDN is that often their information comes from one or two people they talked to, or a book that was written several years ago (I haven't read the Iserson so I won't comment on it)...

I had an MD who is a director of an allopathic residency program in a major urban area tell me to go DO rather than to another in-state MD school (which is well-known and reputable) because he said I will get a better education at the DO school. That was enough for me.

I have to say, it makes no sense for you to have beef with people that make statements based on what they've heard from one or two people they talked to yet you hastily chose to go to a DO school over an MD school simply because one MD told you to do so. I guess making statements based on what you hear is a no-no but making lifelong decisions is okay. 😎

 

[sophiejane]

It was not a "hasty" decision at all. My MD friend simply confirmed it. "Enough" was just the confirmation, not the entire decision. I'm blonde but I'm not THAT blonde. 🙂

I grew up being treated by DOs and had close family friends who were DOs and knew when I started thinking about medical school that I'd probably end up going that route. I only considered MD as a back-up plan.

Why so confrontational?

You decided not to apply to DO schools. I have no problem with that. I congratulate you on your MD acceptance (I assume you have been accepted?) Why are you so concerned with whether or not others choose a different path? It won't affect you at all.

 

[gonnabeaDO]

Originally posted by Slickness
:

I like the DO philosophy and do think OMM would be an advantage. However, I also believe that DOs would make the best primary care physicians and as such should stick to that

how is it that you feel that D.O.'s make the best primary care physicians, but they wouldn't make the best specialists? everyone knows that D.O.'s receive equal training in school, plus the additional focus in OMM, etc., so why should they limit themselves and "stick to that"? to me, it is like saying "women tend to be the most loving and compassionate to their children, so they should stay at home, and not pursue their dreams". if you are better already at the basic level of medical care, as you put it, how is it that one would digress in their abilities in a specialized field?

 

[Adapt]

Originally posted by gonnabeaDO
how is it that you feel that D.O.'s make the best primary care physicians, but they wouldn't make the best specialists? everyone knows that D.O.'s receive equal training in school, plus the additional focus in OMM, etc., so why should they limit themselves and "stick to that"? to me, it is like saying "women tend to be the most loving and compassionate to their children, so they should stay at home, and not pursue their dreams". if you are better already at the basic level of medical care, as you put it, how is it that one would digress in their abilities in a specialized field?

I have already stated my position many times before. To sum up, DO schools emphasize primary care. Thus, they would make good primary care physicians. I never said they don't make good specialists. Of course there are good DO specialists.

 

[DireWolf]

I, for the most part, agree with TPR and Slickness. And I'm a med student, so I guess that gives me credibility. 🙄

 

[sistahnik]

you know what? I am so tired of people talking all this bull about d.o vs. m.d. the 2 fields are equally trained to be physicians and the d.o. has some extra training for the manipulation. how can a md student be more trained than a do student when they are taking the same training, and when I say same training i do realize that individual schools have their own schedule of curriculum, but each student is taking anatomy, genetics and what ever other classes are required. if anything, ALL MEDICAL STUDENTS whether md/do should be lobbying to stop all this indifference towards one another b/c if you all dont stop it then it will continue to be a public issue. I believe that its a challenge for every student to get the residency they want regardless to which school they attended; if that wasn't true then the md students would just be handed their spots without even having to apply or "compete" as some would put it. the value of the field is already there so to try and look down on what someone else is trying to accomplish isn't going to make what you are doing more valuable! so just remember that eeveryone is in it for the same reason (at least they should be) and that is to make sure the patients are given a chance at a wholesome life.

 

[gonnabeaDO]

you damn right sista.

 

[DrMom]

Originally posted by sophiejane
I meant TPR as in The Princetone Review, not PTR!

I fixed it for you. 🙂

 

[DOtobe]

Originally posted by sistahnik
you know what? I am so tired of people talking all this bull about d.o vs. m.d. the 2 fields are equally trained to be physicians and the d.o. has some extra training for the manipulation. how can a md student be more trained than a do student when they are taking the same training, and when I say same training i do realize that individual schools have their own schedule of curriculum, but each student is taking anatomy, genetics and what ever other classes are required. if anything, ALL MEDICAL STUDENTS whether md/do should be lobbying to stop all this indifference towards one another b/c if you all dont stop it then it will continue to be a public issue. I believe that its a challenge for every student to get the residency they want regardless to which school they attended; if that wasn't true then the md students would just be handed their spots without even having to apply or "compete" as some would put it. the value of the field is already there so to try and look down on what someone else is trying to accomplish isn't going to make what you are doing more valuable! so just remember that eeveryone is in it for the same reason (at least they should be) and that is to make sure the patients are given a chance at a wholesome life.

I agree completely!!

Unfortunately, there are a lot of blockheads out there who want this MD vs DO thing to continue. Luckily it ends for the most part once you are out of the pre-med realm and into the real world and on the wards.

 

[Elysium]

Originally posted by sophiejane
Um, yes I can. I just have a neuro test to study for so I'm not going to. Anyway, we've been down that road. I will grant you the "bit" part of that statement, but if and only if you are planning to go allo for your residency and you want a more competitive specialty like rads or derm. There are plenty of spots in AOA programs in almost every specialty, plus loads in ACGME programs that go unfilled every year.

You are not in medical school yet, Slickness. With all due respect, you don't really know what you are talking about.

Let's chat about this more when you matriculate. In the meantime, let's keep the broad sweeping statements that you love to make as though they were facts to a minimum.

🙂

Hmm.

 

[Adapt]

Originally posted by Elysium
Hmm.

🙄

 

[Elysium]

 

[DOtobe]

Originally posted by Elysium

That smiley cracks me up every time I see it.

 

[sophiejane]

Originally posted by sistahnik
you know what? I am so tired of people talking all this bull about d.o vs. m.d. the 2 fields are equally trained to be physicians and the d.o. has some extra training for the manipulation. how can a md student be more trained than a do student when they are taking the same training, and when I say same training i do realize that individual schools have their own schedule of curriculum, but each student is taking anatomy, genetics and what ever other classes are required. if anything, ALL MEDICAL STUDENTS whether md/do should be lobbying to stop all this indifference towards one another b/c if you all dont stop it then it will continue to be a public issue. I believe that its a challenge for every student to get the residency they want regardless to which school they attended; if that wasn't true then the md students would just be handed their spots without even having to apply or "compete" as some would put it. the value of the field is already there so to try and look down on what someone else is trying to accomplish isn't going to make what you are doing more valuable! so just remember that eeveryone is in it for the same reason (at least they should be) and that is to make sure the patients are given a chance at a wholesome life.

You speak the truth--well said--and thanks for the reality check. My intention was not to start another tedious MD/DO thread, but more to point out that TPR was misinformed and spreading information that was biased and innaccurate about DO education and opportunities.

I was hoping to undo a bit of the damage they might have done with people who were trying to decide which path was right for them.

I see now that most people have made up their minds and are not interested in dialogue, but rather in defending their own ideas. That's okay. I think it is actually a good thing that so many outspoken individuals are going into medicine. I hope they are all good communicators with their patients as well.

Let's let this thread die and go back to learning to be Drs....

 

[that dr. jack]

let it be said again: if you want to do a specialty bad enough, you'll do it.

and slickness: i understand your point about D.O.s in primary care. however, what's wrong with wanting to do a specialty and incorporating your Osteopathic principles into that practice? i am sincerely interested in why you think D.O.s should only do primary care. i have seen more than one reference to the fact that D.Os are in every specialty there is, and have seen all the board and associations for different Osteopathic specialites.

Osteopathy is so much more than just OMM, and preventative medicine can be (and should be, IMHO) an important part of any specialty. even though i think i would like to do a surgical specialty, i would hope that my training as an Osteopath could help me be a better physician, no matter what specialty i practice. i'll know this better when i start med school, but it seems to be completely plausible.

 

[that dr. jack]

and...do pre-dental students ever argue about DDS vs. DMD like this? is there a difference?

 

[DOtobe]

Originally posted by that dr. jack
and...do pre-dental students ever argue about DDS vs. DMD like this? is there a difference?

I highly doubt that they do.

 

[Adapt]

Originally posted by that dr. jack
and slickness: i understand your point about D.O.s in primary care. however, what's wrong with wanting to do a specialty and incorporating your Osteopathic principles into that practice?

All I can say is, I have asked for advice from many people particularly DOs, and have asked whether I should choose DO or MD since I was accepted to both. Almost everyone told me that if I wanted to specialize I should go MD.

Granted I am from CA and so the view of DOs is different down here than say in Texas. That's just what I've been told.

 

[sophiejane]

...that I agree with Slickness on something?!

I think it is true to some degree--the whole regional thing. I grew up in a city that has a DO school and a DO hospital, and then I moved to a state that is also very DO-friendly.

That probably has a lot to do with my different perspective.

 

[Adapt]

Originally posted by sophiejane
...that I agree with Slickness on something?!

Nice.

 

[that dr. jack]

slickness, i've heard the same thing from many people, but have observed it both ways myself. people will always try to put their opinions on you and tell you what you "should" do.

like i tell people when they get all bent out of shape that i have opted out of having a 401k, buying a house, or having children because it's the "smart" thing to do: "it's my life to eff up however i like".

 

[Adapt]

Originally posted by that dr. jack
slickness, i've heard the same thing from many people, but have observed it both ways myself. people will always try to put their opinions on you and tell you what you "should" do.

like i tell people when they get all bent out of shape that i have opted out of having a 401k, buying a house, or having children because it's the "smart" thing to do: "it's my life to eff up however i like".

I know what you mean. I don't really listen to other people also. So are you heading toward Western next year?

 

[that dr. jack]

Originally posted by Slickness
I know what you mean. I don't really listen to other people also. So are you heading toward Western next year?

my interview is tomorrow. if i get into both TUCOM and COMP, i have a choice, which i didn't expect. (actually, i expected to get no interviews, no acceptances, nothing but massive doses of ativan and "suicide watch". i have been plesantly surprised.)

COMP is a serious choice for me right now. my whole family is down here, and they are all kinda pushing me to stay. my dad says he'd make me dinner and do my laundry if i needed it, my husband smiles at the thought of renting a house in fullerton and being with me during the first year, and my 89 year-old grandma says she can't bear the thought of me far away.

the rotating students at pacific are all super friendly, smart and top-notch (as the docs there tell me). the docs i know that went there are very successful in both primary care and specialties. i just talked to an anesthesiologist today who said i'd love it. he rotated ER and trauma at County, which is my dream rotation, plus got a great residency at UCI.

part of me wants an adventure- to move somewhere new. since i started college in san francisco and finished in long beach, both TUCOM and COMP are kinda a draw. i also know it would suck to be without my husband or any family for my first year, so i have to decide if it's time to be adventerous or do what is best for me and my loved ones. i've always been the "responsibile one" and sacrificed my own desires for what was good for my family, so i feel torn.

 

[Adapt]

That's cool. It would be a big plus if you did go to COMP since all your family is here. Personally, I don't see what's so good about TUCOM, but I hope you choose what's best for you.

 

[sistahnik]

you're welcome sophiejane, and I understand what your intentions were. 🙂

 

[Megalofyia]

I came into this thread on the defensive because *I* thought it was about boycotting Texas Public Radio because of something they said on the air. I am a big supporter of Texas Public Radio and NPR.

I am glad to see it is not about bashing my favriote radio station.

 

[Amy B]

Originally posted by that dr. jack
and...do pre-dental students ever argue about DDS vs. DMD like this? is there a difference?

Wait a minute I thought since we are going to be DOs that WE ARE pre-dental students.
Isn't that what DO stands for?

Someone in the general public asked me if I was going to be a dentist because she over heard me say I was going to be a DO.😛 🙄

 

[mackaikai]

GOOO SLICKNESS 😀

Originally posted by Slickness
You're funny. Lots of people would agree with me that it is a bit harder to specialize and get into a tough residency as a DO vs an MD. My FP who is a DO told me this and if I wanted to even do general surgery I should go to Temple instead of a DO school.

I'm not ignorant to the issue as you make me out to be. I have done my research on the whole DO vs MD and many people have told me including DOs themselves that if I wanted to specialize I should go MD.

Please be informed yourself before you act condescendingly toward me. After all, if it's printed in TPR and in other books like by that Iserson guy who are probably more informed than you, then perhaps there may be some truth to it.

 

[Adapt]

Originally posted by mackaikai
GOOO SLICKNESS 😀

 

[WillowRose]

and slickness: i understand your point about D.O.s in primary care. however, what's wrong with wanting to do a specialty and incorporating your Osteopathic principles into that practice? i am sincerely interested in why you think D.O.s should only do primary care.

I'm curious about this too. While I realize there is more to being a DO than knowing OMM, it seems to me that it would be a very useful thing to know in several specialties.

My poor hubby has rheumatoid arthritis and is apparently developing gouty arthritis on top of it. I'd love to be able to make him feel better just by manipulating him with my hands. 😉 He often encourages me to become a rheumatologist because if the patient leaves feeling no worse than when he came in, he considers it a successful visit! LOL

Just because DO schools emphasize primary care does not mean they will turn out doctors who are well-suited for primary care. Similarly, if an MD school emphasizes a particular specialty, it doesn't mean their graduates should "stick to" what was emphasized in school.

I've had MD's tell me that it doesn't matter where you go. I've had *one* DO tell me to go to an MD school if I planned on going into some surgical sub-specialty because I would probably get a better residency. Honestly, when the question is posed, the only somewhat definitive answer I get is that as an older applicant, DO schools might look at me more favorably than MD schools. It remains to be seen whether that is true.

As I keep telling my husband, most patients don't know the difference and either don't care or don't notice. They hear "Dr. John Doe" and that is all they care about. Or someone will say "Dr. Jane Smith is a pediatrician in Townsville" and that's enough. If you look in the yellow pages, the MD's and DO's are all listed together. That's probably more research than most patients do. It's who you are as a person and as a doctor. If you've got the ability, you're halfway home.

Will~