Brainspotting?

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Is brainspotting a good treatment?


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I looked at the Leichsenring2014 for PTSD and the claim of equivalence between PE and Psychodynamic psychotherapy. It's actually pretty bunk. Did you look at it? They cite ONE study from 1989 that looked at PTSD comparing desensitization (similar to, but not PE) and psychodynamic, and describe the history of disagreement regarding implications of the findings.
I wasn't specifically discussing Psychodynamic therapy but that many "bonified" therapies work similarly well for PTSD.

Here is a related thread from... February... really? I thought this was from like a year ago. Damn you 2020, when will you end.

This is the review that I based my statement on

I was surprised TM worked so well (I erroneously, somewhere, said mindfulness last night).

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EDIT: The other big review that I'm aware of regarding the comparative efficacy of psychodynamic for PTSD is Shedler's 2010, which cites Leichsenring 2004, which cites....the same ONE study from 1989. It's turtles all the f*cking way down.
Yeah, that Shedler review had a lot of problems. Interesting points but the empirical literature was clumped together in a poor manner.
 
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I think it's a fundamental misunderstanding of Wampold to conclude that he is arguing specific ingredients do not matter.
Well, he fooled me. I only read Wampold once (during internship didactics led by a big psychoanalysis guy). My impression about Wampold is that he doesn't think that therapies have specific components. For example:

With some qualifications. I would put the differences between various types of psychotherapy at very close to zero percent.

I could be misunderstanding him. Maybe he means it is possible but not currently available?
 
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I wasn't specifically discussing Psychodynamic therapy but that many "bonified" therapies work similarly well for PTSD.
Thanks for clarifying. I believe @FreudianSlippers was referring to psychodynamic.


Wow! This is a really interesting study. However, just because TM was non-inferior to PE in one trial I think it would be a mistake to assume that specific ingredients don't matter in psychotherapy for PTSD. You are clearly aware of the flaws of this argument, I just want to highlight it :)


Well, he fooled me. I only read Wampold once (during internship didactics led by a big psychoanalysis guy). My impression about Wampold is that he doesn't think that therapies have specific components. For example:


I could be misunderstanding him. Maybe he means it is possible but not currently available?

Well that's interesting. I'm not sure why he would include "Specific Ingredients" as one of three pathways through which psychotherapy works, and then go around saying "specific ingredients don't matter."

Going back to Wampold now with a more skeptical eye, and looking at the actual evidence he cites I'm finding his claims far, far less compelling. For example, here's another review (2010) from the same journal (Clinical Psychology Review) that published the review he cites (and was an author of) as primary evidence supporting his claims of equivalence between psychotherapies for PTSD (2008):

We argue that (1) the selection procedure of the available evidence used in Benish et al.'s (2008) meta-analysis introduces bias; and (2) the analysis and conclusions fail to take into account the need to demonstrate that treatments for PTSD are more effective than natural recovery. Furthermore, significant increases in effect sizes of trauma-focused cognitive behavior therapies over the past two decades contradict the conclusion that content of treatment does not matter.

We then make suggestions to help advance understanding of the optimal treatment for PTSD. These include (a) further research into the active mechanisms of therapeutic change, including treatment elements commonly considered to be non-specific, (b) transparency in reporting exclusions in meta-analyses, and (c) defining bona fide treatments on empirical and theoretical grounds rather than by judgments of the investigators' intent.
 
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Shedler is no kind of scholar. He is singlemindedly focused on insisting that psychodynamic psychotherapy is equivalent to any EST in any situation, and he doesn't care how badly he has to torque the available data to do it.
 
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Shedler also has that mainstream article (Psychology Today, I think?) that bashes CBT approaches for PTSD and has spread a lot of misinformation. I see lay people linking it all of the time.
 
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While browsing job postings this afternoon I came across this advert. Below are the requirements and qualities needed. We really need to figure out a way to get info about EBP out to the public. I'll just leave this here...
  • Trained in a specific trauma healing modality, such as EMDR, Internal Family Systems (IFS) Therapy, Somatic Experiencing (SE), Sensorimotor, Brainspotting, etc.)
Qualities Required from Applicants:
  • Loving
  • Compassionate
 
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While browsing job postings this afternoon I came across this advert. Below are the requirements and qualities needed. We really need to figure out a way to get info about EBP out to the public. I'll just leave this here...
  • Trained in a specific trauma healing modality, such as EMDR, Internal Family Systems (IFS) Therapy, Somatic Experiencing (SE), Sensorimotor, Brainspotting, etc.)
Qualities Required from Applicants:
  • Loving
  • Compassionate

Sign me up!!!
 
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Ugh. It's amazing the amount of junk science that not only exists out there but THRIVES. Sadly, many of those sham treatments tend to target the most vulnerable and compromised.
 
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It's really common in trauma especially. There's a lot of floofiness and promotion of the idea that patients are fragile, even it it's well-intended.
 
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While browsing job postings this afternoon I came across this advert. Below are the requirements and qualities needed. We really need to figure out a way to get info about EBP out to the public. I'll just leave this here...
  • Trained in a specific trauma healing modality, such as EMDR, Internal Family Systems (IFS) Therapy, Somatic Experiencing (SE), Sensorimotor, Brainspotting, etc.)
Qualities Required from Applicants:
  • Loving
  • Compassionate
Found this place. They have a fancy website with high quality head shots. What else could you want from your therapists.
 
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I have now seen Emdr work in some of my patients. I have not seen neurofeedback work yet. Nowadays, after COVID, it is hard to get a therapist with an opening for any type of therapy. I have not been able to get anyone in for pe. Of the VA does it, they aren't doing it for non VA patients as far as I know.
 
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I'm curious; if the eye movement component in EMDR acts as a distractor during the trauma narrative, shouldn't that make the exposure less effective?
 
I have now seen Emdr work in some of my patients. I have not seen neurofeedback work yet. Nowadays, after COVID, it is hard to get a therapist with an opening for any type of therapy. I have not been able to get anyone in for pe. Of the VA does it, they aren't doing it for non VA patients as far as I know.
My patients report EMDR as working for them too. Research supports that it does because of the exposure. Talking about your trauma in a calm and structured way helps. It really isn't that complicated. That being said, I don't deliver pseudoscience to my patients so not going to do EMDR and don't need to. I work with the patients that already had a course of EMDR and "I think it helped, but I still have problems" or "it didn't help at all".
I'm curious; if the eye movement component in EMDR acts as a distractor during the trauma narrative, shouldn't that make the exposure less effective?
Helping a patient to regulate their emotional arousal is often an essential part of treatment and especially so for trauma where part of the issue is hyperarousal. I use humor or intellectualization or a brief quiet moment or mindfulness or a walk with my patients when they start getting too activated. There is an optimal level of CNS arousal for neuronal development and our patients are either underactivated or over activated or vacillating between the two. Without promoting new pathways in the brain, no change will happen and trauma state is neurodegenerative as opposed to whatever the opposite terms should be. My trauma patients come in with an all Roads Lead to Rome brain, except that instead of Rome it's the amygdala. Oversimplified, but I'm pretty sure that is more accurate than the kind of pseudoscience crap I hear from EMDR folks.
 
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I also have seen brainspotting help more recently.
I don't under doing Emdr and brainspotting online tho. And there's a lot of that.
 
I also have seen brainspotting help more recently.
I don't under doing Emdr and brainspotting online tho. And there's a lot of that.
As a psychiatrist at a VA I trained at said, “Placebo is the most effective treatment there is. It always has an effect and for every single condition and often the effect is bigger than the marginal improvement of the comparison treatment”. I don’t fight with people who are buying the snake oil and if asked will point out the part of the treatment that works and why they don’t need the rest.

For example, I have had many patients get brainscans from Amen and I don’t tell them that it was a lot of useless information and that really what matters is helping them to change the patterns of thought and behavior. Last patient from Amen had recommendation for CBT because they had anxiety. Spot on with the diagnosis and recommendation, but I could have told the patient the same thing for only 200 bucks. Even the concept of CBT is being made out to be some special thing by folks like that. The patient was really glad that I knew all about CBT and seemed more focused on the term than anything else.

I haven’t really looked at any research on this, but based on this recent patient and some in the past, I wonder how much this ties into some kind of passive avoidance pattern. In other words, they are anxious about making the right or wrong decisions and taking agency of that and so they defer to authority. I tend to always foster agency and accountability so haven’t really had much success with patients who are committed to that. I guess I am not enough of a caretaker type or guru type to meet that need for long. Now that I think about it that explains why patient was frustrated with me yesterday when I kept stating that they had a difficult decision to make.
 
I haven’t really looked at any research on this, but based on this recent patient and some in the past, I wonder how much this ties into some kind of passive avoidance pattern. In other words, they are anxious about making the right or wrong decisions and taking agency of that and so they defer to authority. I tend to always foster agency and accountability so haven’t really had much success with patients who are committed to that. I guess I am not enough of a caretaker type or guru type to meet that need for long. Now that I think about it that explains why patient was frustrated with me yesterday when I kept stating that they had a difficult decision to make.

Some people aren't all that subtle about their desire for re-parenting.
 
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Some people aren't all that subtle about their desire for re-parenting.
yup.
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I'm curious; if the eye movement component in EMDR acts as a distractor during the trauma narrative, shouldn't that make the exposure less effective?

So... I would guess that, because the real mechanism of exposure is inhibitory learning, the more important piece is the patient doing things like labelling their emotions and continuing to stay with the narrative despite the discomfort.

I recently attended a seminar with a PTSD expert who said that EMDR is poorly researched when it comes to comparing to other evidence-based PTSD therapies (as we know) and it looks like the effects may drop off faster, which could be a dosage issue--basically, EMDR may not have enough of the actual component that makes it effect, aka exposure.
 
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So... I would guess that, because the real mechanism of exposure is inhibitory learning, the more important piece is the patient doing things like labelling their emotions and continuing to stay with the narrative despite the discomfort.

I recently attended a seminar with a PTSD expert who said that EMDR is poorly researched when it comes to comparing to other evidence-based PTSD therapies (as we know) and it looks like the effects may drop off faster, which could be a dosage issue--basically, EMDR may not have enough of the actual component that makes it effect, aka exposure.

I wonder if, from an inhibitory learning perspective, the learning here mighy be "I can stay with the narrative when I'm attatched to this ridiculous machine and focusing on my eye movements." I guess it just seems to me like the EMDR-specific stuff would be, to some extent, getting in the way.
 
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I wonder if, from an inhibitory learning perspective, the learning here mighy be "I can stay with the narrative when I'm attatched to this ridiculous machine and focusing on my eye movements." I guess it just seems to me like the EMDR-specific stuff would be, to some extent, getting in the way.

Yeah, which is why I'm guessing EMDR is less effective than PE (or would be, if they'd ever actually compare them. Which apparently Shapiro refuses to do).
 
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Yeah, which is why I'm guessing EMDR is less effective than PE (or would be, if they'd ever actually compare them. Which apparently Shapiro refuses to do).
At least in the cases I've seen I don't think the Emdr was placebo as they had been thru a lot of talk therapy in the past to minimal avail.

I tell people amen is trash when they bring me the scans. I ask them why amen didn't actually solve their problems if they are so good. I have seen completely inappropriate recs by them, just tons of their supplements.
 
At least in the cases I've seen I don't think the Emdr was placebo as they had been thru a lot of talk therapy in the past to minimal avail.

I tell people amen is trash when they bring me the scans. I ask them why amen didn't actually solve their problems if they are so good. I have seen completely inappropriate recs by them, just tons of their supplements.

The EM of the EMDR is the placebo, it also has an active exposure component which is driving any treatment change.

I also can't find a place to do PE for the public

Get a hold of your state psych association and see if you can put a call out on their listserv. Better luck that way.
 
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Yeah, which is why I'm guessing EMDR is less effective than PE (or would be, if they'd ever actually compare them. Which apparently Shapiro refuses to do).

At the same time the best treatment for any condition is the one the patient will actually adhere to, and while not at all ideal I can see an argument where all the flimflam is beneficial just as a means of persuading people to actually try any kind of systematic re-visiting of memories they spend a lot of time running away from.
 
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At the same time the best treatment for any condition is the one the patient will actually adhere to, and while not at all ideal I can see an argument where all the flimflam is beneficial just as a means of persuading people to actually try any kind of systematic re-visiting of memories they spend a lot of time running away from.

The problem is EMDR may be less effective than PE or CPT. We don't know. Sure, it's better than nothing, but that doesn't mean it isn't a subpar treatment. Especially if people progress through EMDR and it doesn't work, which leads them to conclude that their PTSD can't be treated.

Edit: I should add there have also been concerns raised ethically about how EMDR charges clinicians so much money to be trained in when it may just "exposure but we don't call it that."
 
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This is not evidence-based and is basically a pseudoscience money grab. CPT and PE are both effective, efficient evidence-based treatments for PTSD.

Indeed. Having worked exclusively in a VA SUD/PCT clinic for a year, I can attest that the primary EBPs we used were CPT, PE, and EMDR. Alternatively, I also use STAIR Narrative Therapy.

I don't know why but EMDR is the only treatment I have ever had multiple patients walk into my department asking for directly and by name.

I've also had some vets that went through a course of EMDR swear by it, yet, they come to me even more distressed because EMDR "unearthed" challenging emotions EMDR didn't address with them, so then I run them through a course of CPT typically. I am not personally a fan of EMDR and do not regard it as really helpful; I think much of the cognitive reframing aspect tends to be the moderating variable in this therapy, and thus, can be better applied and executed under another therapy such as CPT.

Sure but the dropout rates for PE in particular are horrendous. Success rates are good *for people who can tolerate the treatment,* which consitute a selected group. Besides the 30-40% who thought they could tolerate it but dropped out, I've never seen a meaningful estimate of how many people refuse to engage with it in the first place because they know it would be intolerable. (But based on my clinical experiences trying to convince people they need to do exposure based therapies for their PTSD, it's a lot.)


The rationale for EMDR is total junk science, agreed, but if the mechanism is truly related only to exposure, how come EMDR is better tolerated while being equally effective? Can anyone explain this?

Yeah, I've had vets who swore PE was the devil, and were very apprehensive in doing PE when I described the approach to them. Also, depending on the nature of their trauma(s), previous treatment experiences for PTSD, I may not even recommend PE as a first-line treatment, but rather, may begin with CPT to address underlying cognitions, re-evaluate and may recommend a course of PE, especially when there are significant criterion E symptoms still prevalent. Having folks start out in PE and then drop out can be very counter-productive and potentially harmful because they end up believing they've failed at therapy, and then become dissuaded from re-engaging in the future (I came across this sentiment several times).

I'll second that. In the VA, we had much more success in getting someone to try CPT. I'm trained in both, and at least in non-VA samples, PE generally led to quicker and longer lasting resolution of PTSD symptoms than other methods I've tried over the years.

Indeed - I really like CPT and also am "VA-trained" in it; I think it can be incredibly useful for folks who are new to PTSD treatment. I like to do a good orientation session and lay out the therapies I offer, and describe them in-depth so they have a clear understanding of how each therapy will be used to target the symptoms that have impacted their quality of life. Also, PE can be very beneficial and have robust and long-term effects, based on the right "inclusion criteria" IMO.
 
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Indeed. Having worked exclusively in a VA SUD/PCT clinic for a year, I can attest that the primary EBPs we used were CPT, PE, and EMDR. Alternatively, I also use STAIR Narrative Therapy.



I've also had some vets that went through a course of EMDR swear by it, yet, they come to me even more distressed because EMDR "unearthed" challenging emotions EMDR didn't address with them, so then I run them through a course of CPT typically. I am not personally a fan of EMDR and do not regard it as really helpful; I think much of the cognitive reframing aspect tends to be the moderating variable in this therapy, and thus, can be better applied and executed under another therapy such as CPT.



Yeah, I've had vets who swore PE was the devil, and were very apprehensive in doing PE when I described the approach to them. Also, depending on the nature of their trauma(s), previous treatment experiences for PTSD, I may not even recommend PE as a first-line treatment, but rather, may begin with CPT to address underlying cognitions, re-evaluate and may recommend a course of PE, especially when there are significant criterion E symptoms still prevalent. Having folks start out in PE and then drop out can be very counter-productive and potentially harmful because they end up believing they've failed at therapy, and then become dissuaded from re-engaging in the future (I came across this sentiment several times).



Indeed - I really like CPT and also am "VA-trained" in it; I think it can be incredibly useful for folks who are new to PTSD treatment. I like to do a good orientation session and lay out the therapies I offer, and describe them in-depth so they have a clear understanding of how each therapy will be used to target the symptoms that have impacted their quality of life. Also, PE can be very beneficial and have robust and long-term effects, based on the right "inclusion criteria" IMO.
I'm not as experienced providing PTSD treatment as many here, but went through my share of it training in VA and afterward, and definitely agree that the orientation and education components before starting can be very helpful. I know psychoed is in the first sessions of CPT and PE already, but I've also worked/trained at VAs that provided a PTSD psychoeducation group of 3-4 sessions that was typically required prior to starting individual therapy. Went through things like the typical symptoms of PTSD, broad overview of its history and development, and introductions to the different forms of treatment.
 
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Indeed. Having worked exclusively in a VA SUD/PCT clinic for a year, I can attest that the primary EBPs we used were CPT, PE, and EMDR. Alternatively, I also use STAIR Narrative Therapy.



I've also had some vets that went through a course of EMDR swear by it, yet, they come to me even more distressed because EMDR "unearthed" challenging emotions EMDR didn't address with them, so then I run them through a course of CPT typically. I am not personally a fan of EMDR and do not regard it as really helpful; I think much of the cognitive reframing aspect tends to be the moderating variable in this therapy, and thus, can be better applied and executed under another therapy such as CPT.



Yeah, I've had vets who swore PE was the devil, and were very apprehensive in doing PE when I described the approach to them. Also, depending on the nature of their trauma(s), previous treatment experiences for PTSD, I may not even recommend PE as a first-line treatment, but rather, may begin with CPT to address underlying cognitions, re-evaluate and may recommend a course of PE, especially when there are significant criterion E symptoms still prevalent. Having folks start out in PE and then drop out can be very counter-productive and potentially harmful because they end up believing they've failed at therapy, and then become dissuaded from re-engaging in the future (I came across this sentiment several times).



Indeed - I really like CPT and also am "VA-trained" in it; I think it can be incredibly useful for folks who are new to PTSD treatment. I like to do a good orientation session and lay out the therapies I offer, and describe them in-depth so they have a clear understanding of how each therapy will be used to target the symptoms that have impacted their quality of life. Also, PE can be very beneficial and have robust and long-term effects, based on the right "inclusion criteria" IMO.

I've also had patients who found that EMDR unearthed a lot of unhelpful or distressing thoughts but didn't really provide the tools for them. They usually end up doing CPT.

I'm not as experienced providing PTSD treatment as many here, but went through my share of it training in VA and afterward, and definitely agree that the orientation and education components before starting can be very helpful. I know psychoed is in the first sessions of CPT and PE already, but I've also worked/trained at VAs that provided a PTSD psychoeducation group of 3-4 sessions that was typically required prior to starting individual therapy. Went through things like the typical symptoms of PTSD, broad overview of its history and development, and introductions to the different forms of treatment.

I agree in theory - at the same time, PTSD psychoeducation just for the sake of it can just delay effective treatments. One study found that veterans who engaged in psychoeducation had lower rates of EBP engagement and, if they did engage in an EBP, did not benefit as much.
 
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I've also had patients who found that EMDR unearthed a lot of unhelpful or distressing thoughts but didn't really provide the tools for them. They usually end up doing CPT.



I agree in theory - at the same time, PTSD psychoeducation just for the sake of it can just delay effective treatments. One study found that veterans who engaged in psychoeducation had lower rates of EBP engagement and, if they did engage in an EBP, did not benefit as much.

I wonder how analogous this is to the early CISD stuff, which found it detrimental. Also curious as to how this may look outside of a Veteran sample.
 
I find it interesting that in PTSD we never discuss other professions that have a higher rate of unintentional fatalities: road construction workers (94/100k), loggers (135/100k), commercial fishers (86/100k) in PTSD, compared to military people (77/100k).
 
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I've also had patients who found that EMDR unearthed a lot of unhelpful or distressing thoughts but didn't really provide the tools for them. They usually end up doing CPT.



I agree in theory - at the same time, PTSD psychoeducation just for the sake of it can just delay effective treatments. One study found that veterans who engaged in psychoeducation had lower rates of EBP engagement and, if they did engage in an EBP, did not benefit as much.
Have run into the patients with EMDR who delved into trauma in EMDR and didn’t process through it and don’t get better. Prior experiences shape our emotions, thoughts, and behaviors which all integrate with each other and if we have significant events that cause this process to lead to maladaptive patterns then there is quite a bit of reprocessing of cognitive and behavioral patterns that needs to be done. Avoidance of the distressing feelings is what drives the development of these patterns. Whether the false hope of a quick fix and “I’m all better now” in EMDR which I have seen or the dynamic of education leading to intellectualization which is more of a maybe, I would surmise that those either replicate existing or add new patterns to avoidance mechanisms.
 
I find it interesting that in PTSD we never discuss other professions that have a higher rate of unintentional fatalities: road construction workers (94/100k), loggers (135/100k), commercial fishers (86/100k) in PTSD, compared to military people (77/100k).

You could argue the same with sexual assault--the PTSD world talks a lot about it but mainstream people associate PTSD with combat.
 
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I've also had patients who found that EMDR unearthed a lot of unhelpful or distressing thoughts but didn't really provide the tools for them. They usually end up doing CPT.



I agree in theory - at the same time, PTSD psychoeducation just for the sake of it can just delay effective treatments. One study found that veterans who engaged in psychoeducation had lower rates of EBP engagement and, if they did engage in an EBP, did not benefit as much.
I can't find cpt and pe in the private practice community.
 
I find it interesting that in PTSD we never discuss other professions that have a higher rate of unintentional fatalities: road construction workers (94/100k), loggers (135/100k), commercial fishers (86/100k) in PTSD, compared to military people (77/100k).

Indeed - I actually go over some basic data of PTSD with my vets and tend to emphasize there tends to be more of a prevalence in the community vs. military due to situations like MVA, sexual assault, injuries sustained on the job.
 
PM me - I can ask around if you can tell me what state if you want. A lot of VA psychologists have private practices on the side.

Indeed - I have my own LLC I started right before I started at the VA I am currently at. I routinely use my trauma-focus therapies I use in the VA in my private practice.
 
As referenced in another thread, ask your state psych association about a message on the their listserv, you'll find plenty of providers who can do PE/CPT. I get the "I can't find a PE/CPT" provider line here too, and then I can rattle off a handful of names to the person. It's easy not to be ablwe to find something when you're not looking.
 
It's a good start, but for people who want a provider who is trained in this, this site is only a small fraction of providers. I checked it for my area and know many more that are not listed. I'd still suggest checking in with your state psych association.

Oh, for sure. This is only people that have submitted their information to the website.

Another thing is, if you have enough interested clinicians, you can try to arrange a CPT training through an organization. I also know that Dr. Chard does community trainings through PESI.
 
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Oh, for sure. This is only people that have submitted their information to the website.

Another thing is, if you have enough interested clinicians, you can try to arrange a CPT training through an organization. I also know that Dr. Chard does community trainings through PESI.

Yeah, I get the PESI flyers now and then. Also for people looking, if you have a VA hospital or clinic nearby, it's not uncommon for some of the psychologists to have part-tie private practices on the side. Another avenue for people who have been properly trained in the techniques.
 
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Yeah, I get the PESI flyers now and then. Also for people looking, if you have a VA hospital or clinic nearby, it's not uncommon for some of the psychologists to have part-tie private practices on the side. Another avenue for people who have been properly trained in the techniques.

Exactly - this is what I do, and often offer CPT within my private practice on the side.
 
Exactly - this is what I do, and often offer CPT within my private practice on the side.
I wish VA would outright encourage all psychotherapy providers to do this and would provide support in doing so (e.g., getting more providers who desire it on an alternative work schedule like 4x10's). The standard of care for PTSD treatment in the community outside of VA and former-VA providers, at least in my (albeit geographically-restricted) experience leaves a lot to be desired.

If VA really wants to improve its reputation more broadly, it should let its greatest resource (i.e., its providers) treat folks outside VA.
 
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I wish VA would outright encourage all psychotherapy providers to do this and would provide support in doing so (e.g., getting more providers who desire it on an alternative work schedule like 4x10's). The standard of care for PTSD treatment in the community outside of VA and former-VA providers, at least in my (albeit geographically-restricted) experience leaves a lot to be desired.

If VA really wants to improve its reputation more broadly, it should let its greatest resource (i.e., its providers) treat folks outside VA.

I agree :)
 
I wish VA would outright encourage all psychotherapy providers to do this and would provide support in doing so (e.g., getting more providers who desire it on an alternative work schedule like 4x10's). The standard of care for PTSD treatment in the community outside of VA and former-VA providers, at least in my (albeit geographically-restricted) experience leaves a lot to be desired.

If VA really wants to improve its reputation more broadly, it should let its greatest resource (i.e., its providers) treat folks outside VA.
Are non-standard tours hard to come by? At our VA we (at least for now) seem to have the option without much pushback.
 
Are non-standard tours hard to come by? At our VA we (at least for now) seem to have the option without much pushback.

With my friends still at the VA here in town, they relaxed a bit with the pandemic, but seem to be pressuring people to go back to traditional tours of duty and denying new requests for nonstandard schedules. YMMV with different VAs
 
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