BU med student killer thread?

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Here is an odd article I saw on the Boston Globe site:

Behind 'perfect life,' a darker side

Ex-lab partner details Markoff mood swings


By most accounts, Philip Markoff's life had all the hallmarks of a solid middle-class existence. He grew up in upstate New York, where his father was a dentist, his mother worked in a casino, and he played basketball with his brother in the driveway. High school acquaintances said he was a smart, if slightly nerdy, student who excelled in science, made the honor roll, and liked to bowl.
But a lab partner who worked closely with Markoff at Boston University School of Medicine in recent years said Markoff was troubled by profound mood swings. He came to class sometimes in seemingly intractable depressions, which worried Tiffany B. Montgomery to the point that she considered alerting school counselors that he might be suicidal.
Montgomery said she is "not even remotely surprised" that authorities have charged Markoff with the murder of Julissa Brisman, who advertised on the "erotic services" section on Craigslist. "He just wasn't right in the head, and I knew it, and probably other people did, too," said Montgomery, 26, who spent hours with him each day in the lab.
"My friends from the lab group have confirmed that 'you weren't the only one feeling that way,' " she said. "I got the impression he was really disturbed."
Montgomery, who dropped out of medical school last February because of financial problems, said Markoff's mood swings alarmed her.
"One day, he'd be warm and friendly and smiling," said Montgomery, who now works as a biotech consultant in Boston. "And the next day you'd see him and the clouds had rolled in. And you'd say to yourself, 'This is the 50 percent of the week when it's the upset, brooding Phil, and not the smiling happy Phil.' "
Still, in the outlines of Markoff's life, there was little to suggest the man described by police as a violent predator who looked for women on Craigslist, bound them with plastic ties, and robbed them at gunpoint. Markoff seemed to have the "perfect life," in the words of one friend: he was the small-town boy gone to the city for medical school, engaged to the girlfriend he had been dating since college, and planning a wedding on the Jersey shore in August. He had no criminal record and just one driving violation in Massachusetts, where he was cited for failing to stop in Roxbury in April 2008, authorities said.
Investigators have raised the possibility that Markoff had a gambling problem that may have motivated his alleged crimes. They based the theory, in part, on the fact, they say, that Markoff and his fiancee, Megan McAllister, were driving to Foxwoods Resort Casino in Connecticut when they were stopped on the highway in Walpole Monday.
Markoff's high school friends in Sherrill, N.Y., a hamlet east of Syracuse, said he liked to play "penny poker" and may have gambled occasionally at Turning Stone Resort and Casino in nearby Verona, where his mother worked in the gift shop. In his high school yearbook, Markoff boasted of his gambling prowess, saying: "I bequeath my poker playing skills to Andy Finley, so he won't lose his dad's house." In his senior year at the State University of New York at Albany, friends said, he played poker three or four times a week but not for money.
"There was nothing that really stood out about him; he was just, like, there," said Joe Coe, 23, who spent time with Markoff in Coe's dorm room at SUNY Albany. He described Markoff as an "average guy" with conservative politics. "Occasionally he was funny, occasionally he was loud, but there was no defining characteristic."
Markoff's grandfather, Jerome, a lawyer in Maryland, said his grandson is innocent.
"This is not my grandson," Jerome Markoff said. "I know my grandson. I hate to see a rush to judgment. I hate to see it.
"He's a wonderful boy, just absolutely wonderful, and couldn't be better," he added. "I'm proud of him and proud of his abilities as a medical student. He always wanted to be a doctor."
Matthew Paulini, who knew Markoff at Vernon-Verona-Sherrill High School, recalled "a pretty sociable and pretty smart guy" who liked to crack jokes and "shoot the breeze."
"The closest thing he would ever get to getting angry was everyday stuff, like we'd be on the bowling team and he'd go to pick up a spare and he'd be kind of angry if he missed, but it was never anything violent," Paulini said.
After graduating from high school in 2004, Markoff roomed with Ryan Meikle during freshman orientation week, and the two later took chemistry and biology classes together. Markoff "might have been a little bit of a perfectionist," in his studies, Meikle said.
"I thought he was a little geeky, but he did have a social life and he went out to bars," Meikle said. In 2005, Markoff's sophomore year, Markoff met McAllister, a senior, in an emergency room near campus where they volunteered.
Markoff graduated with a biology degree in 2007, and enrolled in medical school. He lived for a time on the first floor of an apartment building in Dorchester before moving to Quincy with McAllister in July, neighbors in Dorchester said.
In November 2007, before an important exam, Markoff told Montgomery, his lab partner at the time, that he had spent the weekend visiting his girlfriend in New Jersey and had been arguing with her. Montgomery was surprised to hear he had a girlfriend.
"Up until that point, he'd never even mentioned her," she said. "I met him in August, and we're here in November, and this is the first time he's mentioned this woman."
She said that despite the hours they spent together, she and Markoff never became close. Markoff would come to lab and put his head on the desk for 10 minutes. He "would talk when spoken to but wouldn't open up conversations," she said.
"Everybody's right when they say he was nice," she said. "He was nice. But he was definitely strange, and he was strange in a dark way."
Maria Cramer of the Globe staff contributed to this report. Michael Levenson can be reached at [email protected]

Very sad that someone seems to have a seen a problem.

Ok , why are all these people coming out of the woodwork now. Former lab parters, former college roomates etc.

I dont know about you guys but the descriptions these people are giving are not that unique or strange. I mean, who doesnt know a moody, nerdy type A med student who doesnt share details about their personal life with their tank mate in anatomy lab?
Seriously. Lets stop acting like anyone could have seen this coming based on the way he interacted with his peers.
So far i havent heard anything that does not describe some people i know.

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Ok , why are all these people coming out of the woodwork now. Former lab parters, former college roomates etc.

I dont know about you guys but the descriptions these people are giving are not that unique or strange. I mean, who doesnt know a moody, nerdy type A med student who doesnt share details about their personal life with their tank mate in anatomy lab?
Seriously. Lets stop acting like anyone could have seen this coming based on the way he interacted with his peers.
So far i havent heard anything that does not describe some people i know.

I agree. It's strange that he didn't mention a girlfriend for three months? Wow, that's groundbreaking stuff. These people are just looking for some personal publicity. The media is desperate for anything on this guy right now, and obviously people who were real close to him aren't saying anything except that they think he's innocent.
 
"Everybody's right when they say he was nice," she said. "He was nice. But he was definitely strange, and he was strange in a dark way."

Yep, that pretty much sums me up. Still, I'm not murdering people so I can go gamble. :rolleyes: Lame.
 
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Montgomery, who dropped out of medical school last February because of financial problems...

Stop the presses.

I have NEVER heard of anyone dropping out of med school for financial reasons...

Her credibility is shot.
 
Stop the presses.

I have NEVER heard of anyone dropping out of med school for financial reasons...

Her credibility is shot.

This could happen if she has to support her family or something like that. Tuition at BUSM is approximately $45,000 a year, plus the housing market in Boston is very expensive, maybe $1,200 a month for a little run down apartment, plus perhaps $4,000 a year for food, plus $3,000 for other expenses and when you add travel the budget that BUSM provides students is around $67,000 to $70,000 per year. If she had a husband who maybe lost a job, perhaps she needed to do the work she is doing as a biotech consultant, perhaps saving up enough money to return to medical school. Faculty used to joke that students were "stealing cars" to pay the tuition and expenses. Expenses are a big time complicating factor for BUSM students. Many delay fellowships so that they can start paying off loans. Even the craigslist killer seems to have had some financial issues, though maybe more than just problems getting more loans. I knew several students who had to figure out where the "free food" was being offered at such as such lectures at BU because their financial aid had run out, and were very upset and concerned about it, and they didn't seem like gamblers to me.
 
I didn't sift through all the responses, so sorry if mine is a repeat.

If he is indeed the killer and the robbery suspect, I am not going to hold BU responsible in any way. IT'S THIS GUY WHO DID THIS.

I don't see any of you going out and robbing/murdering people just because you had a heavy year and a mountain of debt (at least I hope not).

When someone commits a crime, the criminal is to blame, end of story. There are things about the situation that, in hindsight, could have been changed, but ultimately, the criminal is responsible for committing the crime. Good grief.
 
Med school doesn't turn anyone into a psychopath. Instead of blaming BU, poor childhood, gun control, craigslist, or any other BS, why don't we focus the blame precisely where it belongs for once?
 
When did you graduate? I agree with Eagle that the environment you describe bears no resemblance to the BU I attend.

Everyone on the pre-allo and allo threads who are trying to somehow blame BU -- either its admissions screening or its environment -- are just being silly.

This kid could have attended any school. Please.

Welllll - I don't blame BU per se. But taken literally, I also wouldn't say this guy could have attended ANY school. From NY, went to SUNY, he probably tried to get into one of the NY state schools for example.... :rolleyes: But I get your point overall.

How could any admissions committee know by a half hour interview with someone? I know for a fact that they do end up regretting a few of their choices! :laugh:
 
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I have heard of an overwhelming number of male med students as well as residents that have very similar attitudes towards women as this guy has been reported to have. To the extent of causing physical, sexual and emotional harm. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that it may be a character tendency.

You're joking right?
 
I haven't read the responses but massages advertised on craigslist are normally with the happy endings (hookers). I think this guy was just robbing these girls for cash thinking they aren't going to report it because what these girls are doing is illegal. He was probably doing it to support his gambling habits and hide the fact he had money problems 2/2 to that.
 
And how exactly do you know this? :mad:

I do that as my second job. But really if you want a massage you go to a spa like burke williams, but going to someones hotel room for one seems a little fishy too me.
 
I believe CNN is reporting that her ad was for an "erotic" massage.

There you go then. He was robbing these women because these "erotic" massage types would have more money on them to support his gambling habits. This one put up more of a fight I guess and paid for it with her life. I'm from the ghetto and robbing hookers who are less likely to report the crime is an old hustle. Back in the days gang members used to jack drug dealers because the dealers couldn't report they got robbed to the police, but now a days gang members are doing most of the drug dealing.
 
Ok , why are all these people coming out of the woodwork now. Former lab parters, former college roomates etc.

I dont know about you guys but the descriptions these people are giving are not that unique or strange. I mean, who doesnt know a moody, nerdy type A med student who doesnt share details about their personal life with their tank mate in anatomy lab?
Seriously. Lets stop acting like anyone could have seen this coming based on the way he interacted with his peers.
So far i havent heard anything that does not describe some people i know.


:thumbup:

I'm a moody nerdy type-A resident and I swear I'm not going to go on a bloody rampage.

It's a shame everyone is looking for thier 15 minutes of fame.
 
In a thread about a MEDICAL STUDENT SERIAL KILLER you are "excessively" concerned about the press' misusing the term "pre-med???"

and you wonder why people hate premeds. Self-absorbed much?

:rolleyes: News is sensational. No one focuses on the true weight of the occurance or we'd be depressed hearing about the 20 murders they feature on the news everyday. Anyways, when saying excessively, I mean more than I should, not a lot. And I'm not a premed...?

Back to the sensation...
 
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Joking about what?
I wasn't joking, but if I need to reword what I wrote, then I will.

I believe he's referring to your hearsay statement that male medical students and professionals can reasonably be generally categorized as misogynists followed by your inference that they are therefore likely to commit sexual assault.

I don't want to put words in his mouth though, that's just how I read it. Maybe someone with better VR skills would like to take a shot.
 
I have heard of an overwhelming number of male med students as well as residents that have very similar attitudes towards women as this guy has been reported to have. To the extent of causing physical, sexual and emotional harm. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that it may be a character tendency.

Joking about what?
I wasn't joking, but if I need to reword what I wrote, then I will.

I just thought statements that bold and unsubstantiated were probably just sarcasm. Guess I was wrong.
 
It's silly to blame BU for this. The pressures of med school does not make one into a compulsive gambler, liar, thief, and killer. The guy was screwed up in the head before he ever stepped foot on campus.
 
I am still trying to figure out why they keep bringing up the medical student part of the story.
 
I am still trying to figure out why they keep bringing up the medical student part of the story.

That's the only thing that makes it newsworthy. There are basically two kinds of news:

1) Things that the audience percieves as affecting them directly

2) Things that are wierd.

Since I doubt there are enough craigslist hookers subscribing to the Washington Post to make #1 a reason for running the story, I'd say this story is about #2. 'Dude kills hooker' isn't newsworthy (we live in a sick world), but 'medical student kills hooker' is.

It's like how it's not national news when some girl in jeans and a Tshirt stalks a guy. However when an astronaut chick wearing daipers stalks a guy it's very much newsworthy.
 
That's the only thing that makes it newsworthy. There are basically two kinds of news:

1) Things that the audience percieves as affecting them directly

2) Things that are wierd.

Since I doubt there are enough craigslist hookers subscribing to the Washington Post to make #1 a reason for running the story, I'd say this story is about #2. 'Dude kills hooker' isn't newsworthy (we live in a sick world), but 'medical student kills hooker' is.

It's like how it's not national news when some girl in jeans and a Tshirt stalks a guy. However when an astronaut chick wearing daipers stalks a guy it's very much newsworthy.

Med student is part of it, but not the whole story. If they guy was a black medical student, not much of a story.

The public loves good looking white people. When they are abducted (Natalie Holloway comes to mind) or when they kill (Scott Peterson). Nothing new to see here.
 
Med student is part of it, but not the whole story. If they guy was a black medical student, not much of a story.

The public loves good looking white people. When they are abducted (Natalie Holloway comes to mind) or when they kill (Scott Peterson). Nothing new to see here.

OJ was a black guy and that was basically the biggest news story of the 90s. I don't think the coverage is about race.
 
well OJ was a really famous guy..but I agree that it's not about race. It's probably more about the fact that he's a medical student
 
The new evidence in this case means this dude is guilty as sin. Found the girls underwear in his apartment and other personal items from the crime scene?

Have fun in prison you stupid deranged bastard.

I love how his stupid fiancee is going to the media saying "oh its all a conspiracy, my baby didnt do this" crap. How predictable. I wonder what her reaction is going to be when she finds out about the guns/ammo in his apt and sees the female underwear put on parade. Stupid bitch.

I hope his family and her family shell out millions in legal fees and go broke trying to defend their "innocent little baby" only to see him get sentenced to life without parole.
 
OJ was a black guy and that was basically the biggest news story of the 90s. I don't think the coverage is about race.

I think it's about when supposedly respectable people (med student, sports hero) do stupid shiznats. When a pimp kills a hooker it doesn't make national news, when a med student does it's a big deal. When joe blow gets a BJ from his secretary nobody cares, when the president does it's news.
 
Considering he supposedly killed 2 attractive white people, I'd say the coverage was certainly fueled in part by racial tensions.

Yeah that's actually a good point. The OJ trial is a very poor example of why news coverage is not racially fueled.

Anyway, I don't think this would be a non-story if the killer was a black man. It's a big deal because he's a medical student, not because he's a white medical student.
 
Considering he supposedly killed 2 attractive white people, I'd say the coverage was certainly fueled in part by racial tensions.

I don't know -- how many major celebrities (the dude was a hall of fame football player, Heisman winner, and had roles in over a dozen movies, including The Towering Inferno, and the Naked Gun series, lots of TV appearances, as well as numerous memorable TV commercials) commit double homicides these days? And then have their "getaway" police chase televised nationwide. This guy was going to be the star attraction on Court TV and the fledgling cable news networks even if he was lily white. Certainly his defense felt the need to spin it as a racial case (racist white cops out to frame him), but the TV cameras were there because of who he was -- a household name. I promise you if, say, Joe Namath killed two people his trial coverage would be at least as big.
 
It's silly to blame BU for this. The pressures of med school does not make one into a compulsive gambler, liar, thief, and killer. The guy was screwed up in the head before he ever stepped foot on campus.

I don't think anyone is saying BU turned him into any of these things. I think the suggestion is that perhaps their screening isn't as good as some of the other programs. I seem to recall that they require fewer essays (with the result that they end up getting a lot more applications). Maybe fewer essays means less insight into what kind of a person they are accepting?
 
I don't know -- how many major celebrities (the dude was a hall of fame football player, Heisman winner, and had roles in over a dozen movies, including The Towering Inferno, and the Naked Gun series, lots of TV appearances, as well as numerous memorable TV commercials) commit double homicides these days? And then have their "getaway" police chase televised nationwide. This guy was going to be the star attraction on Court TV and the fledgling cable news networks even if he was lily white. Certainly his defense felt the need to spin it as a racial case (racist white cops out to frame him), but the TV cameras were there because of who he was -- a household name. I promise you if, say, Joe Namath killed two people his trial coverage would be at least as big.

I agree the fact that he was a major celebrity, the grisly nature of the DOUBLE homicide, and the fact that all this was kickstarted with the nationally televised Bronco chase added to the circus that was the OJ Simpson story. But I still feel there was a racial element that contributed to the media frenzy. I remember reading a couple of months ago (probably around the time when the ***** was being sentenced to jail) that opinions on OJ Simpson continued to be divided primarily along racial lines.
 
I don't think anyone is saying BU turned him into any of these things. I think the suggestion is that perhaps their screening isn't as good as some of the other programs. I seem to recall that they require fewer essays (with the result that they end up getting a lot more applications). Maybe fewer essays means less insight into what kind of a person they are accepting?

I don't know that an additional essay or two would have done the trick. The people who knew him best (fiance, family) are in denial that he could even be capable of this. How would a medical school be able to catch his psychopathic personality by reading an extra 300 words when these people who dealt with him every day could not. The bottom line is that there is no good way to screen for possible killers, and there is no real need to. You generally don't screen for diseases with extremely low prevalence, especially when that screening test will have low specificity and sensitivity.

I don't really even see why it's such a big deal that he was a medical student. If he were a banker, a law student, or the guy who cleans my windows on rt. 128 the outcome would be the same. Why should we care what a murderer's profession was?
 
...that opinions on OJ Simpson continued to be divided primarily along racial lines.

Opinions on guilt or innocence is a totally different question. This could be true even if it were a tiny, barely televised story. I agree that there are folks out there who can't get past the race issues. But I disagree that it would have been any less of a major media circus had OJ been white. This was a HUGE story. Wealthy major celebrities -- household names EVERYBODY KNOWS -- never knife two people in the street. It never happens, white or black. And THAT'S what makes it big news. You'd see the same kind of coverage if a white celebrity of similar stature did this. It's news because it never happens. The dude wasn't a has been like Beretta or Phil Specter --where maybe you can understand how he went a bit mental -- his career was doing well, he was actively in movies.
 
meh... I don't think me writing about "How the UChicago mission statement makes me a good candidate" or telling Ohio State "in what ways I show altruism" is going to screen me out if I'm a sociopath. A lot of these guys have damn impressive paper resumes, and are quite persuasive.

really though, I want to know what this guy's SDN handle is. You know he's got one.

If you never ask the question, it's hard to know what the answer would reveal. All we know is that this is one school's screening he got through, and it's pretty minimal screening. Would he have written about hiring hookers on Craig's list and robbing them, in his secondary? Probably not. Could they have elicited something that might have rubbed them the wrong way -- to think that maybe this person isn't such a "good fit"? Impossible to know without making the ask. It is being suggested on this board that the number of alleged murderers at BU is greater than schools with more traditional secondary screening. I'm not suggesting BU did anything wrong, but perhaps they could have done more right in terms of their screening process.
 
If you never ask the question, it's hard to know what the answer would reveal. All we know is that this is one school's screening he got through, and it's pretty minimal screening. Would he have written about hiring hookers on Craig's list and robbing them, in his secondary? Probably not. Could they have elicited something that might have rubbed them the wrong way -- to think that maybe this person isn't such a "good fit"? Impossible to know without making the ask. It is being suggested on this board that the number of alleged murderers at BU is greater than schools with more traditional secondary screening. I'm not suggesting BU did anything wrong, but perhaps they could have done more right in terms of their screening process.

I agree. There is no way to figure out who these people are in a basic med school interverview.
Nothing short of a psychological test would reveal a potential psychopath of sociopath.
 
I agree. There is no way to figure out who these people are in a basic med school interverview.
Nothing short of a psychological test would reveal a potential psychopath of sociopath.

You would never learn something as specific such as that he is a potential psychopath. You might, however decide that he was a bit "off" if you asked enough questions. Because if what is alleged is true, he doesn't see the world the same as your typical med student. All we do know, however, is that BU is the school that requires the least in the way of secondary essays, and this guy got in there. Maybe he applied elsewhere and the secondaries tripped him up? We can never know. But BU could have found out firsthand if they screened differently. If they don't ask folks enough questions, they end up with less info upon which to make their determination. And dudes like this make the grade.
 
You would never learn something as specific such as that he is a potential psychopath. You might, however decide that he was a bit "off" if you asked enough questions. Because if what is alleged is true, he doesn't see the world the same as your typical med student. All we do know, however, is that BU is the school that requires the least in the way of secondary essays, and this guy got in there. Maybe he applied elsewhere and the secondaries tripped him up? We can never know. But BU could have found out firsthand if they screened differently. If they don't ask folks enough questions, they end up with less info upon which to make their determination. And dudes like this make the grade.

What additional essays/screening questions would you propose?
 
You would never learn something as specific such as that he is a potential psychopath. You might, however decide that he was a bit "off" if you asked enough questions. Because if what is alleged is true, he doesn't see the world the same as your typical med student. All we do know, however, is that BU is the school that requires the least in the way of secondary essays, and this guy got in there. Maybe he applied elsewhere and the secondaries tripped him up? We can never know. But BU could have found out firsthand if they screened differently. If they don't ask folks enough questions, they end up with less info upon which to make their determination. And dudes like this make the grade.

pre-meds bull**** their way through med school interviews and secondaries everyday. how many pre-meds really intend to "practice primary care in an unerserved community"? You would think they all did if you sat in on an interview.
I dont think a few extra questions would trip someone up. They already ask questions like "what would you do if you saw a classmate cheating?". He would have to be really stupid to give an answer that would raise suspicion

Besides, the the type of questions that would really need to ask would probably be illegal to ask in a med school interview.
 
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