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Okay this story is too crazy not to have its own thread:
anyone have additional info from his class?
anyone have additional info from his class?
BU med student killer thread?
- Thread starter LADoc00
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Haha, this makes me feel better for not getting accepted to BU- they were too busy thinking that this guy would be a good physician.
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Already a few threads going about this.
But I would just love to be a fly on the wall next time his study group/small group gets together.
But I would just love to be a fly on the wall next time his study group/small group gets together.
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This feels a little bit too much like gossip mongering for comfort. Is that really what we should be using SDN for?
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This feels a little bit too much like gossip mongering for comfort. Is that really what we should be using SDN for?
Agreed. I don't think personal info/insights should be aired -- but what's in the newspapers is probably fair game to discuss. Bear in mind though that this dude is innocent until proven guilty, and even then he might have an affirmative legal defense.
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CNN says that Philip Markoff was a "pre-med student at Boston University with no criminal record." Are we sure this person is a med student; CNN makes it sound like he's not. I would hope that CNN could get their facts straight about something like this.
NY Times says he's a 2nd year medical student at BU. I trust the NY Times more than CNN any day. Anyway, I'm sure we'll be hearing about this until we are sick of it.
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Interesting that if he had any other academic pursuits he would be simply called a "college student" but since he is "pre-med" it is noteworthy in the article.
Because, you know, those pre-meds are such rare types. And they're all going to be doctors.
Because, you know, those pre-meds are such rare types. And they're all going to be doctors.
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I think CNN thinks med means pre-MD, or medical student. CNN reporting sucks.
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http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2009/04/16/hotel_suspect_gallery/
First picture. White coat ceremony. He's most definitely a med student....
First picture. White coat ceremony. He's most definitely a med student....
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I can't believe that another medical student at BU medical school has killed somebody, years ago there was another medical student at BU that sadly took a person's life. I am a BU alum, and thinks that this reflects poorly on the school deservedly or not.
As a medical student at BU I was concerned that such a killing could happen again. I even discussed with faculty my concerns about the training environment at BU, which while considered very "tough" at BU by the faculty there, seems to treat students inappropriately in many respects. As a student, I saw a lot of harassment and vitriol directed towards medical students, even in the pre-clinical years basic sciences faculty will occassionally verbally abuse students and the clinical experiences in the basic science years could be much better.
I had hoped with the new mentoring program and maybe a more humane treatment of medical students would be setup at BU, but with the level of abuse on some rotations and by some faculty members I wonder how much it has changed. Who knows how much the school had an effect on this student, perhaps he was hard wired to be a sociopath, . . . but he spent nearly two years at the school and apparently went on a very sad rampage.
I am shocked that my prediction was correct in that I felt that within the first decade of 2000 there would be another murder or similar event at the school as there is a lot of medical student hazing that goes on under the radar at the school. I wish I could apologize to the victim's family as I feel I may have been able to prevent this. When I heard it was a medical student in Boston, I knew it was BU in my heart even though there are four schools there . . . Such a depressing event, this is very difficult to hear about this if you went to school there, and doubly so in my case.
As a medical student at BU I was concerned that such a killing could happen again. I even discussed with faculty my concerns about the training environment at BU, which while considered very "tough" at BU by the faculty there, seems to treat students inappropriately in many respects. As a student, I saw a lot of harassment and vitriol directed towards medical students, even in the pre-clinical years basic sciences faculty will occassionally verbally abuse students and the clinical experiences in the basic science years could be much better.
I had hoped with the new mentoring program and maybe a more humane treatment of medical students would be setup at BU, but with the level of abuse on some rotations and by some faculty members I wonder how much it has changed. Who knows how much the school had an effect on this student, perhaps he was hard wired to be a sociopath, . . . but he spent nearly two years at the school and apparently went on a very sad rampage.
I am shocked that my prediction was correct in that I felt that within the first decade of 2000 there would be another murder or similar event at the school as there is a lot of medical student hazing that goes on under the radar at the school. I wish I could apologize to the victim's family as I feel I may have been able to prevent this. When I heard it was a medical student in Boston, I knew it was BU in my heart even though there are four schools there . . . Such a depressing event, this is very difficult to hear about this if you went to school there, and doubly so in my case.
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I can't believe that another medical student at BU medical school has killed somebody, years ago there was another medical student at BU that sadly took a person's life. I am a BU alum, and thinks that this reflects poorly on the school deservedly or not.
As a medical student at BU I was concerned that such a killing could happen again. I even discussed with faculty my concerns about the training environment at BU, which while considered very "tough" at BU by the faculty there, seems to treat students inappropriately in many respects. As a student, I saw a lot of harassment and vitriol directed towards medical students, even in the pre-clinical years basic sciences faculty will occassionally verbally abuse students and the clinical experiences in the basic science years could be much better.
I had hoped with the new mentoring program and maybe a more humane treatment of medical students would be setup at BU, but with the level of abuse on some rotations and by some faculty members I wonder how much it has changed. Who knows how much the school had an effect on this student, perhaps he was hard wired to be a sociopath, . . . but he spent nearly two years at the school and apparently went on a very sad rampage.
I am shocked that my prediction was correct in that I felt that within the first decade of 2000 there would be another murder or similar event at the school as there is a lot of medical student hazing that goes on under the radar at the school. I wish I could apologize to the victim's family as I feel I may have been able to prevent this. When I heard it was a medical student in Boston, I knew it was BU in my heart even though there are four schools there . . . Such a depressing event, this is very difficult to hear about this if you went to school there, and doubly so in my case.
I dont think this crazy event has so much to do with the learning environment at BU. Its probably more to do with the screening process meant to prevent unstable people from getting in to start with.
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That's a very good point but most people with psychiatric histories don't commit crimes, and it seems he didn't have a criminal record before attending BU. The tuition is very high and some people view that as a negative so maybe the bottom of the barrel are the ones getting in? The pressure cooker attitude of the place sure scared the heck out of me that it would happen again most places aren't as bad as BU in terms of treatment of medical students from my limited observations. It is scary when you are positive that this would happen again and then it did. I can see a student being driven crazy by the faculty there are many that are out and out mean to the students. They are the same ones when I was there. Who knows why it happened just super sad it happened again. I really pray that they adopt a nicer attitude towards students there. This is so sad
I wanted to bluntly tell faculty that the atmosphere is so bad that we will have another situation like the first BU student who killed someone. In the end I felt the words were too strong I really wish I had done this though. I feel like crying, this is going to be a tough week.
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As a first year student at BU, I really see no hint of the faculty attitude towards student that you speak of. All throughout the year, the faculty has been extremely supportive of us, really listening to all of our comments and feedback and doing their absolute best to help us in every way possible. I'm not sure what your experience was like back a while ago, and if what you speak of is true, I can tell you that my first has not been anything like that. Knowing many of the second years, I have not heard of this attitude in their year as well. So, honestly I cannot be sure, I sincerely doubt that the reason for his unbelievable and unforgivable actions are the learning environment that we have at BU.
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I dont know to what extent the environment at BU med school contributed to this incident. I certainly feel that my perception of the environment at BU is correct.
At any rate the fact that two BU med students have become murderers is shocking to me. The odds of this happening twice to the same medical school in such a short time span is very small. And because at least two people have died, and more students than myself have serious concerns about hazing at BU, it would be appropriate for BU and/or for the LCME to investigate the school and its treatment of medical students. Medical students spend most of their time worrying about medical school and studying medicine and especially during the first two years the vast majority of the time is spent doing BU activities. This isn't about blaming BU, but perhaps taking a closer look to see if this can be prevented.
How many red flags do you need?? I know my concerns were ignored. It would be 100% irresponsible for the faculty to ignore this problem now. I could be "wrong" but why chance it? What if something surprising was learned like maybe there is lead in the water pipes or something? Blissful ignorance is not the way to go. I would be shocked if school officials don't do SOMETHING after this second debacle and student complaints.
Some situations can lead to serious psychological damage like serving in the war in iraq which may lead to long term psychiatric morbidity such as PTSD. Who knows what is happening at BU, but certainly I felt there was a high probability that another murder by a student or some similar event would occur, and it did which is scary. I felt this because I feel that the atmosphere was very toxic.
At any rate the fact that two BU med students have become murderers is shocking to me. The odds of this happening twice to the same medical school in such a short time span is very small. And because at least two people have died, and more students than myself have serious concerns about hazing at BU, it would be appropriate for BU and/or for the LCME to investigate the school and its treatment of medical students. Medical students spend most of their time worrying about medical school and studying medicine and especially during the first two years the vast majority of the time is spent doing BU activities. This isn't about blaming BU, but perhaps taking a closer look to see if this can be prevented.
How many red flags do you need?? I know my concerns were ignored. It would be 100% irresponsible for the faculty to ignore this problem now. I could be "wrong" but why chance it? What if something surprising was learned like maybe there is lead in the water pipes or something? Blissful ignorance is not the way to go. I would be shocked if school officials don't do SOMETHING after this second debacle and student complaints.
Some situations can lead to serious psychological damage like serving in the war in iraq which may lead to long term psychiatric morbidity such as PTSD. Who knows what is happening at BU, but certainly I felt there was a high probability that another murder by a student or some similar event would occur, and it did which is scary. I felt this because I feel that the atmosphere was very toxic.
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Sensitive towards whom? You guys at BU? or the poor families who have to deal with the deaths of loved ones. This isn't a time to defend your institution. I feel for those victims and their families, may they find strength in prayer.
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You're entitled to your own opinion, but I feel that my perception of BU environment is correct. With how much change our class has accomplished this year by going to the faculty, it's hard to believe that your "concerns" were just ignored.
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I just hope somebody at the school takes a closer look at the treatment of medical students. Seems like they will have to after this, at least that is how most institutions would respond to a pattern like this. Thats great you made changes. This is soo un-real.
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And I'm sure its difficult for classmates who considered the accused a friend. Note: the accused. Not the guilty.
This thread will probably be closed but I consider a discussion of a "medical student killer" a bit presumptive.
Not to take away from the tragedy of the deaths of the young women. Regardless of who is at fault it is a tragedy.
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Personally I feel more for the suspect's victims than for his friends.
With all due respect if you were very personally involved with this individual, I think that the prospect of there being a murderer enrolled in any medical school class--whether it is our own school or not--is of some relevance to all of us here.
We make some assumptions that our classmates have somehow been vetted to be good human beings, who (minor character flaws aside) are committed to benefiting people in some way. We have to have faith that they will be trustworthy with human life. I may look at the med students I work with and think "eh, X or Y is not going to be the best physician," but it is always in spite of their best intentions. I would never have looked at X and Y and thought they were so different from me. This could have been a med student at any school, and that could feel disruptive, sad, confusing, etc. to many of us.
While it may seem like people are seeking idle gossip by asking about this student, I think there is a little piece of us that also wants that "confusion" to be alleviated by hearing someone say--"oh, well, he never seemed like the rest of us," so we can be comforted about trusting our classmates as we always have/have expected to.
I can't believe that another medical student at BU medical school has killed somebody, years ago there was another medical student at BU that sadly took a person's life. I am a BU alum, and thinks that this reflects poorly on the school deservedly or not.
As a medical student at BU I was concerned that such a killing could happen again. I even discussed with faculty my concerns about the training environment at BU, which while considered very "tough" at BU by the faculty there, seems to treat students inappropriately in many respects. As a student, I saw a lot of harassment and vitriol directed towards medical students, even in the pre-clinical years basic sciences faculty will occassionally verbally abuse students and the clinical experiences in the basic science years could be much better.
I had hoped with the new mentoring program and maybe a more humane treatment of medical students would be setup at BU, but with the level of abuse on some rotations and by some faculty members I wonder how much it has changed. Who knows how much the school had an effect on this student, perhaps he was hard wired to be a sociopath, . . . but he spent nearly two years at the school and apparently went on a very sad rampage.
I am shocked that my prediction was correct in that I felt that within the first decade of 2000 there would be another murder or similar event at the school as there is a lot of medical student hazing that goes on under the radar at the school. I wish I could apologize to the victim's family as I feel I may have been able to prevent this. When I heard it was a medical student in Boston, I knew it was BU in my heart even though there are four schools there . . . Such a depressing event, this is very difficult to hear about this if you went to school there, and doubly so in my case.
Do you realize that the previous murder was committed after the murderer was sentenced to pay out more than $100,000 to the victim because he was deemed responsible for a car accident? And that the murderer had previously been in the Israeli military?
It was a very targeted crime by someone who had previously lived in an environment more stressful than med school. I don't think you can blame BU for creating a pattern. Once more details come to light about the most recent crime spree, I believe it will turn out (if anything to do with the med school) that BU's failure is in screening their applicants, not in their educational process.
Are you trying to suggest the woman might be at fault in her own murder? Give me a break.
I agree with other posters above, things like this reflect that the medical admissions selection isn't remotely close to perfect. If a murderer can get through, anything else can get through. This news has an impact on all medical students. For starters, makes me assume and take things for granted a little bit less.
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Nobody knows enough facts to know if (1) this med student is guilty of a crime, or (2) whether self defense is going to be a potential defense raised in this case, if it in fact goes to trial. So any thoughts about fault are pure conjecture at this point. But I would point out that hookers trying to rob clients at gunpoint is far more common than the reverse.
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How many med students commit murder? Of course it is not a coincident if the only 2 ever studied at the same institution. For BU to blame it on coincidences is weak. I think the BU faculty selects a subgroup of people similar to those who posts in the ScP forum here on SDN. People who like violence, guns, death penalty and eye-for-an-eye ethics and anyone who disagree is a loser who deserves to die in a fire.
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They should have a show called, "When med students go bad"
Here's another infamous case
Here's another infamous case
Feds: Pennsylvania Medical Student Sought 'Society' of Sex Slaves
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I think ZagDoc was saying innocent until proven guilty and all that, not that it's the victims' fault but that he might not be the killer.
Wasn't there something a few years ago about a med student sending someone a hand or something off his cadaver as a prank?
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This bothers me excessively. Little things like this make me respect the news less and less each day.
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I think it was exactly that; coincidence and nothing more. There is a lot of conjecture on here and zero credible data. We are talking about 2 data points here. 2! Let's not let our personal prejudices override logical reasoning.
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Another BU med student from way back:
http://www.dailyfreepress.com/news/medical-student-charged-in-murder-1.945703
http://www.dailyfreepress.com/news/medical-student-charged-in-murder-1.945703
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I believe the student stole a hand from anatomy lab and gave it to a stripper as a gift. It was found several years later in a raid on the stripper's house. They then determined who gave it to her, and this guy who was already at least in residency was pretty much screwed.
As for the story above, I've got to say I'm pretty fascinated. But we all know medical schools aren't so hot at screening for character, so would it be that surprising to find out one of your classmates was a murderer? I'm being a little fascicious here, but still.
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In a thread about a MEDICAL STUDENT SERIAL KILLER you are "excessively" concerned about the press' misusing the term "pre-med???"
and you wonder why people hate premeds. Self-absorbed much?
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I'm still having trouble seeing how this guy is a 2nd year medical student at the age of 22. Even if they had a BS/MD pathway, he still wouldn't be old enough.
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Yeah, maybe he is a "serial self defender." Uh, usually someone who kills in self defense calls the police to report the crime. Three plus times.
Please. I understand that he is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, but let's not be silly.
I think it happens. Different states have different ages at which kids enter kindergarten. Also, if he finished college or skipped a grade, he may have easily entered med school at age 20. It definitely happens.
I guess I agree with the other poster that we need to see the big picture here-- 1 woman was brutally murdered and another woman was kidnapped and robbed and would probably be dead if her husband hadn't interrupted the crime. The empathy should go to the victims and their families first and foremost.
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When did you graduate? I agree with Eagle that the environment you describe bears no resemblance to the BU I attend.
Everyone on the pre-allo and allo threads who are trying to somehow blame BU -- either its admissions screening or its environment -- are just being silly.
This kid could have attended any school. Please.
Assuming he hasn't yet had a birthday this year and will soon be 23, then he would only be one year ahead of the traditional chronological timeline. Maybe he skipped a grade in elementary school or finished college in three years. Doesn't seem too unusual.
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So, let me get this straight. You are a doctor and you think a medical school environment can turn someone into a serial killer?
Wow, THAT actually does concern me about the quality of education at BU, if you actually graduated from there.
Please stop, you are embarrassing yourself.
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First, two is not a "pattern."
Second, where are the data points about deaths at other schools? Kinda relevant.
[I can't believe I am even engaging with people who are arguing that a particular med school creates serial killers. Ridiculous.]
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Even though this was a tragic event, allegedly undertaken by a med student at BU, the OP seems more concerned in suggesting that the individual in question may have snapped due to alleged verbal abuse of med students by faculty, "pressure cooker" learning environment, high tuition, and poor clinical experience during pre-clinical years? It sounds like the OP is more interested in trying to convince people not to attend BU (perhaps to improve their own chances?). If you want to try to slander a school, this is a very tasteless way to do so.
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We have a 17 year old that started the MD program at MCG. Ros. Franklin has a 14 year old that is in the MD/PHD program.
It's nothing new.
Yeah, actually now that I think about it we have a family friend who graduated high school a year early and then did the 6 year BS/MD program at Penn State so he started MS-I at age 18 (fall birthday). And he wasn't exactly national news or anything.
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Not uncommon at all. We had a 19 year old and at least three 20 year olds when I was a first year med student. Not everybody follows a traditional path. A said earlier- skip a grade in k-12 or graduate from college in 3 years. The 19 year old started college at 15 and finished 3 degrees (math, physics and chemistry) in 4 years.
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I hope you see the jump in logic you took here.
No idea where you got that impression. I was just pointing out that we live in the United States of America. You know, where burden of proof falls on the prosecution. Where you are innocent until proven guilty.
I don't want anyone to get the impression I'm trying to defend a killer. As friends of someone who was arrested for a crime he didn't commit and later acquitted of all charges, I just am saying don't be so quick to jump to assumptions.
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BU let me know that I was rejected less than two weeks after receiving my secondary application. I find it hard to believe that they even had a chance to LOOK at my application in that time when most schools took at least that long just to log my secondary application in their records. Pure speculation, but I would guess that BU is a school that sorts applicants by the numbers.
