Build Baby, Build - New RVU Campus

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full_rocker

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Been hearing rumors of this but suppose this is more or less an official announcement.

Curious to see how RVU plans to make this happen when Burrell audibled to Idaho after push back from various groups in MT.


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looks like paradise. Isn't RVU owned by some Caribean school? maybe they are bringing caribean school to the US under the DO brand.
 

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What was the pushback about Burrell?

This would be great for MT, and would basically ensure that all competitive Montana pre-meds get a med school seat.
 
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What was the pushback about Burrell?

This would be great for MT, and would basically ensure that all competitive Montana pre-meds get a med school seat.




I agree MT needs more physicians. I believe the bottleneck is at the residency level and not the number of open medical school seats level. Therefore, just opening more schools wont "solve" the problem. MT currently has 29 PGY-1 residency spots across 3 FM and 1 IM program (Graduate Medical Education Council - Montana Office of Rural Health and Area Health Education Center | Montana State University).

Medical students in the WWAMI program (up to 30 MT residents/year) as well as those from PNWU already rotate at hospitals across the state which, given the limited number of residences, creates a challening environment for medial students to experience quality third (and fourth) year rotations.

Also, looks like Touro is also looking at starting a school in Great Falls (an even smaller community without the support of two large hospitals systems [SCL Saint Vincents and Billings Clinic]).

 
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Yeah...I just heard about this today. ...Crazy that RVU wants to have as many campuses as VCOM. Money buys anything I guess. I know the PD at the Billings Clinic and historically he has not recruited many DO's to his IM residency program. Oh well, maybe he will change his mind over time.


 
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miss the woot woot woot dude. what happened to him?
You are replying to him....


So The business model of these new DO schools seems to be to start a school with 80-100 students and in 5 years 2x it. If that is the plan here where will these students even rotate?
 
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Noorda's curriculum is one of the most bizarre I've seen...didn't even bother applying there

Will it be a successful model?

The Noorda College of Osteopathic Medicine’s (Noorda-COM) curriculum diverges significantly from traditional medical education. Noorda-COM’s blended curricular model pioneers the integration of technology and directed personal guidance, putting students at the center of the medical education experience.

No scheduled classes and no large classroom lectures

The heart of our curriculum is faculty pre-recorded, short video segments (3 to 7 minutes) covering defined learning objectives. Students engage with core content in small groups (4-12 people) in on-campus learning pods collaboratively accomplishing required content. Groups are able to schedule their own learning times, leading to a great degree of flexibility for the student.

Learning Pod

learning-pod.png


At the end of each video segment, to assess and reinforce learning, a medical boards-style question is asked on the material presented with supplemental, prescribed supporting documentation as additional references. The next video segment plays once the group correctly answers the question. Faculty are available via “on-call” chat should the group have questions. This format allows for integrated, interprofessional team teaching from a variety of experts, and even patients, on a single topic.

Students are provided with their individualized discipline specific and cumulative performance metrics. This constant flow of data in real time identifies areas for student improvement maximizing the opportunity to succeed. At the end of every other week, faculty lead live, learning objective specific reviews are delivered based on data collected from that cycle. These sessions are a forum for faculty to provide an interactive and tailored "additional" support for topics that students found challenging during the preceding period. <Advanced content is selectively available to students who desire a deeper dive on areas of personal interest.
 
February 10, 2021
Rating Action: Moody's assigns first-time Ba2 rating to Noorda College of Osteopathic Medicine, LLC's Taxable Educational Facilities Revenue Bonds Series 2021A and Series 2021B issued through the Public Finance Authority; outlook stableGlobal Credit Research - 10 Feb 2021 Approximately $127 million of debt securities affectedNew York, February 10, 2021 -- Moody's Investors Service, ("Moody's") has assigned a first-time Ba2 rating to Noorda College of Osteopathic Medicine, LLC's (Noorda COM) $48 million Taxable Educational Facilities Revenue Bonds (Noorda College of Osteopathic Medicine Project) Series 2021A and $78.6 million Taxable Educational Facilities Revenue Bonds (Noorda College of Osteopathic Medicine Project) Series 2021B issued by the Public Finance Authority.
Noorda College of Osteopathic Medicine, LLC ("Noorda COM") is the obligor for the bonds and was formed in March 2017 in the City of Provo, Utah with a mission to provide a critically needed solution to acute physician shortages in Utah and the contiguous Rocky Mountain States' region, including Montana, Wyoming, South Dakota, and North Dakota.
RATINGS RATIONALE The Ba2 rating reflects Noorda COM's strong revenue generating potential and cashflow predictability owing to the limited number of MD (Doctor of Medicine) and DO (Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine) school spots in the US despite a materially outsized demand. This view has been already substantiated by the high number of applications received to date that currently exceed 13x the size of the fall 2021 inaugural class. This strong demand is forecast to continue, and the competitive tuition rates assumed support a relatively high degree of cashflow predictability with strong resiliency as annual debt service coverage ratios should exceed 3.0x in most reasonable sensitivities.
The rating is further constrained by Noorda COM's limited scale ($50 million in operating revenues in 2027 in the base case)and revenue concentration that is almost entirely tuition dependent. We believe full accreditation is likely to be obtained by year-end 2025 as planned given no DO school that has reached pre-accreditation stage has ever failed to achieve full accreditation status to date.

A Ba2/BB rating is below investment-grade or sometimes referred to as high-yield or junk. Thus, the yield on the bond is generally higher than on an investment-grade security to compensate for the greater risk of payment default that the bond investor is taking on.

Good to know that DO schools are now being financed using junk bonds. Noorda projects operating revenue of 50 million in 2027. If the class size remains at 150 students per year then they would have to raise tuition to more than 80K per year to generate 50 million in tuition in 2027. This indicates to me that they definitely already plan to increase their class size by 2027 because I doubt they are going raise tuition to >80K within 6 years.
That Noorda school is trash and literally zero people in, or from, the state of Utah want them there.
 
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Noorda's curriculum is one of the most bizarre I've seen...didn't even bother applying there

Will it be a successful model?
I can't see how this will work. It appears that the Faculty will merely phone in thier input and do no teaching. It's all on the students.

And now another McTouro? And another McRVU too. As if Montana is dripping with capable pre-meds like CA, TX or NY???

I love teaching med students, but part of me is glad I'm retiring before the DO world self-destructs.
 
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Are we seriously opening two osteopathic schools in a state with four residency programs? God I’m glad I’m graduating.
 
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aren't new residency programs opening to soak up the new influx of students?
 
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When even the lay public can pick up on a bad idea. An old friend of mine is a retired cop who lives in Billings, MT. I sent him the link in the OP and this is what he had to say:

Yeah, read about it. I'll believe it when I see it. I always worry that it's some fly-by-night outfit that will overcharge for poor education. Reviews are not glowing.
I'd be wary of these guys.
 
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I can't see how this will work. It appears that the Faculty will merely phone in thier input and do no teaching. It's all on the students.

And now another McTouro? And another McRVU too. As if Montana is dripping with capable pre-meds like CA, TX or NY???

I love teaching med students, but part of me is glad I'm retiring before the DO world self-destructs.
When are you retiring?
 
When even the lay public can pick up on a bad idea. An old friend of mine is a retired cop who lives in Billings, MT. I sent him the link in the OP and this is what he had to say:

Yeah, read about it. I'll believe it when I see it. I always worry that it's some fly-by-night outfit that will overcharge for poor education. Reviews are not glowing.
I'd be wary of these guys.
Yep...I guess RVU could have taken two different paths. Either work on enhancing their academic reputation or multiply like a rabbit and become one of those fly-by-night outfits. I really can't understand why most of these DO schools choose the multiply like a rabbit path. $'s talk I guess.
 
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Thousands of unmatched medial students already.
These schools are setting up people for failure by being in crushing debt and not having any other way of paying them back.

Tbf, 99% of those are IMGs, usually US-IMGs from shady schools.
 
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I can't see how this will work. It appears that the Faculty will merely phone in thier input and do no teaching. It's all on the students.
(1) Isn't this how most medical students are learning the medical school content these days anyways? The "shadow curriculum" of B&B and UFAPS is what most on sdn swear by and barely even attend lecture in some cases. They would LOVE how Noorda has set this up in comparison.

(2) They aren't phoning it in in the sense you mean. They create the content and then each group has professors that are on call to be contacted with questions. Additionally, every two weeks there are 2 days of lectures that target where the students were showing weakest performance and where the students have asked for clarification/more help. You can attend, stream, replay, or not attend at all. This is far from phoning it in and seems in theory more targeted, more flexible, and more student-centric.

As long as the content is comprehensive and the support is there, it seems like it will be an enjoyable curriculum, but no one has gone through it yet, so no one knows! Hence the hesitation and fear, which I totally 100% get because I will likely be attending this school, as it is my only acceptance at this point. I will be able to tell you first hand how it really pans out if you want.
 
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(1) Isn't this how most medical students are learning the medical school content these days anyways? The "shadow curriculum" of B&B and UFAPS is what most on sdn swear by and barely even attend lecture in some cases. They would LOVE how Noorda has set this up in comparison.

(2) They aren't phoning it in in the sense you mean. They create the content and then each group has professors that are on call to be contacted with questions. Additionally, every two weeks there are 2 days of lectures that target where the students were showing weakest performance and where the students have asked for clarification/more help. You can attend, stream, replay, or not attend at all. This is far from phoning it in and seems in theory more targeted, more flexible, and more student-centric.

As long as the content is comprehensive and the support is there, it seems like it will be an enjoyable curriculum, but no one has gone through it yet, so no one knows! Hence the hesitation and fear, which I totally 100% get because I will likely be attending this school, as it is my only acceptance at this point. I will be able to tell you first hand how it really pans out if you want.
Ngl, sounds pretty cool.
 
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As Class of 2025, would I have to worry about the match at that point? My goal has always been outpatient medicine/primary care...
 
As Class of 2025, would I have to worry about the match at that point? My goal has always been outpatient medicine/primary care...
Yes and no. Yes bc more competition overall. No because that’s not a competitive field. It doesn’t change anything though. Either way, you grind like your life depends on it.
 
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(1) Isn't this how most medical students are learning the medical school content these days anyways? The "shadow curriculum" of B&B and UFAPS is what most on sdn swear by and barely even attend lecture in some cases. They would LOVE how Noorda has set this up in comparison.

(2) They aren't phoning it in in the sense you mean. They create the content and then each group has professors that are on call to be contacted with questions. Additionally, every two weeks there are 2 days of lectures that target where the students were showing weakest performance and where the students have asked for clarification/more help. You can attend, stream, replay, or not attend at all. This is far from phoning it in and seems in theory more targeted, more flexible, and more student-centric.

As long as the content is comprehensive and the support is there, it seems like it will be an enjoyable curriculum, but no one has gone through it yet, so no one knows! Hence the hesitation and fear, which I totally 100% get because I will likely be attending this school, as it is my only acceptance at this point. I will be able to tell you first hand how it really pans out if you want.
This is a curriculum design for the most independent of learners. It would be great for Harvard and Yale, but being a brand new school, Noorda doesn't have the luxury of attracting this type a student. I can see this blowing up in thier faces, big time. I'm not picking on you, but the typical Noorda student will, in fact need lots of hand holding and learning how to learn.

"professors that are on call to be contacted with questions"...so they're not even in the same room with the students? Are they even on campus? I'd be in there pimping students and having a wrap up to make sure they've got a handle on the content.

I see nice fat profits for Noorda though. Sorry to be cynical, but it sounds like they're far more investor-centric.
 
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(1) Isn't this how most medical students are learning the medical school content these days anyways? The "shadow curriculum" of B&B and UFAPS is what most on sdn swear by and barely even attend lecture in some cases. They would LOVE how Noorda has set this up in comparison.

(2) They aren't phoning it in in the sense you mean. They create the content and then each group has professors that are on call to be contacted with questions. Additionally, every two weeks there are 2 days of lectures that target where the students were showing weakest performance and where the students have asked for clarification/more help. You can attend, stream, replay, or not attend at all. This is far from phoning it in and seems in theory more targeted, more flexible, and more student-centric.

As long as the content is comprehensive and the support is there, it seems like it will be an enjoyable curriculum, but no one has gone through it yet, so no one knows! Hence the hesitation and fear, which I totally 100% get because I will likely be attending this school, as it is my only acceptance at this point. I will be able to tell you first hand how it really pans out if you want.
To be quite blunt, I would not go to this school.
 
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This is a curriculum design for the most independent of learners. It would be great for Harvard and Yale, but being a brand new school, Noorda doesn't have the luxury of attracting this type a student. I can see this blowing up in thier faces, big time. I'm not picking on you, but the typical Noorda student will, in fact need lots of hand holding and learning how to learn.

"professors that are on call to be contacted with questions"...so they're not even in the same room with the students? Are they even on campus? I'd be in there pimping students and having a wrap up to make sure they've got a handle on the content.

I see nice fat profits for Noorda though. Sorry to be cynical, but it sounds like they're far more investor-centric.
No offense taken @Goro; I value your experience and opinion.

At this point it is my only option. I get what I get and I won't be upset! There is always room for improvement, but I believe I will be closer to the end of the independent student spectrum. I only gained those skills in the past two years during which time I had returned to school after having a previous degree then tech career and had mediocre grades to boot, hence my trouble getting into med school in the first place. :) I did well on my MCAT, though.

I will let you know how things go.
 
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I can't see how this will work. It appears that the Faculty will merely phone in thier input and do no teaching. It's all on the students.

And now another McTouro? And another McRVU too. As if Montana is dripping with capable pre-meds like CA, TX or NY???

I love teaching med students, but part of me is glad I'm retiring before the DO world self-destructs

It’s not that dissimilar from the way our neuro block was run at my school. All lectures prerecorded. Some small group clinical reasoning sessions and small group path lab. It is the most popular block and students tend to do the best in it despite the difficulty of the material, including hardcore lecture goers (many of whom stop going to lecture after the neuro block because they realize they don’t have to).
 
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It’s not that dissimilar from the way our neuro block was run at my school. All lectures prerecorded. Some small group clinical reasoning sessions and small group path lab. It is the most popular block and students tend to do the best in it despite the difficulty of the material, including hardcore lecture goers (many of whom stop going to lecture after the neuro block because they realize they don’t have to).
Interesting I didn't know other schools did it like this, I think it is a good idea in the long run. what I worry about is a new DO school with weaker students trying too much, if it was an established school with stronger students I would be less apprehensive.
 
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They need to pay back the investors that bought the junk bonds.
the school-specific thread a few weeks ago posted an interview from a staff member that said they were going to try to raise money for full tuition for the first class. I thought it was funny it was even considered that investors would entertain the idea of using the fundraising money for something beneficial and not paying them back first.
 
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the school-specific thread a few weeks ago posted an interview from a staff member that said they were going to try to raise money for full tuition for the first class. I thought it was funny it was even considered that investors would entertain the idea of using the fundraising money for something beneficial and not paying them back first.
Not going to hold my breath on that one!
 
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Interesting I didn't know other schools did it like this, I think it is a good idea in the long run. what I worry about is a new DO school with weaker students trying too much, if it was an established school with stronger students I would be less apprehensive.

Yeah our school has been around since 1976 and has strong faculty and students.
 
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So glad I believed their crap and am now forever tainted by their brand. :cryi:
 
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*edit: found a second article to add
 
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*edit: found a second article to add

"Billings Clinic has had concerns about many aspects of the Medforth project. These concerns, combined with three events that occurred recently, have caused Billings Clinic to cease discussions with Medforth. On two separate occasions an executive representative of the medical school cast aspersions on a proposed medical school in Great Falls, Montana, on the basis of that medical school’s Jewish affiliation. Those statements intimated that a school with a stated Jewish heritage may not belong in Montana and would not be able to assimilate in the state. In a third instance, a different executive representative of the medical school referred to a female Billings Clinic leader as a “token.” These comments are inconsistent with Billings Clinic’s core values, including a dedication to diversity, inclusion, equity and belonging."
wow that is juicy..
 
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More push-back related to the new RVU Billings, Montana campus. What are the odds they build it anyway? (It's all about $.)

 
More push-back related to the new RVU Billings, Montana campus. What are the odds they build it anyway? (It's all about $.)

I’m cheering for the push back to win.
 
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More push-back related to the new RVU Billings, Montana campus. What are the odds they build it anyway? (It's all about $.)

LMAO apparently they still are building it even though "50 Montana doctors wrote an open letter to RVU saying the timing wasn't right..."

 
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LMAO apparently they still are building it even though "50 Montana doctors wrote an open letter to RVU saying the timing wasn't right..."


i guess they didn’t get the memo

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Both the COCA and Medforth (the holding company which owns both Rocky Vista and St George's University) are complicit here. The COCA should be focused upon increasing the quality and reputation of the DO degree. Instead, they seem insistent upon supporting rapid DO school expansion just driven by private investors who only care about increasing shareholder wealth, organizational revenue and free cash flow.

The PD I know at the Billing Clinic has been appalled by his recent dealings with Rocky Vista executives. And the administrators/executives I know at CU Med in Denver have not been impressed by Rocky Vista's expansion to three campuses either.
 
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There was a very brief time that I had a lot of hope for the AOA and COCA. They agreed to the MOU for residencies, they instituted a requirement for minimum placement for schools, they updated the clinical requirements to mirror MD schools, and they even blocked (ended up just being a delay) multiple schools from expanding and adding branch/satellite campuses.

That was very short lived, because they removed the minimum placement requirement, they practically expedited approval for multiple schools and have continued to do so, and they have let schools define how they wish to "meet" the clinical rotation requirements with virtually no oversight or regulation.

I have long lost what little faith I had in them as an organization to do what is best for the DO degree, DO students, or DO physicians.
 
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There was a very brief time that I had a lot of hope for the AOA and COCA. They agreed to the MOU for residencies, they instituted a requirement for minimum placement for schools, they updated the clinical requirements to mirror MD schools, and they even blocked (ended up just being a delay) multiple schools from expanding and adding branch/satellite campuses.

That was very short lived, because they removed the minimum placement requirement, they practically expedited approval for multiple schools and have continued to do so, and they have let schools define how they wish to "meet" the clinical rotation requirements with virtually no oversight or regulation.

I have long lost what little faith I had in them as an organization to do what is best for the DO degree, DO students, or DO physicians.
I remember when the change for clinical requirements came out and I was stoked. Sadly, there’s literally zero enforcement of it. I actually brought this up to our dean of clinical whateverness (I don’t remember their titles) and asked if it affects accreditation of the school if several of our sites offer no resident exposure. He said it wasn’t a requirement.

We just got reaccredited. COCAs a joke.
 
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I remember when the change for clinical requirements came out and I was stoked. Sadly, there’s literally zero enforcement of it. I actually brought this up to our dean of clinical whateverness (I don’t remember their titles) and asked if it affects accreditation of the school if several of our sites offer no resident exposure. He said it wasn’t a requirement.

We just got reaccredited. COCAs a joke.
We need a new Flexner Report
 
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I think every state should have at least one med school so this is good

I thought there was a Billing's Medical School in MT, but your post led me to look into it. There's not...(it's just a really good FM residency program)...but I found this March 2021 article: Billings Clinic Pulls Out of Talks to Build Medical School Cites Comments By Private Equity Firm Execs


RVU executives made a statement. According to the article "(That) statement cites incidents in which an executive representative of the medical school "cast aspersions on a proposed medical school in Great Falls, Mont., on the basis of that medical school's Jewish affiliation. Those statements intimated that a school with a stated Jewish heritage may not belong in Montana and would not be able to assimilate in the state."

Billings: "These comments are inconsistent with Billings Clinic's core values, including a dedication to diversity, inclusion, equity and belonging,"

:whoa:
 
There was a very brief time that I had a lot of hope for the AOA and COCA. They agreed to the MOU for residencies, they instituted a requirement for minimum placement for schools, they updated the clinical requirements to mirror MD schools, and they even blocked (ended up just being a delay) multiple schools from expanding and adding branch/satellite campuses.

That was very short lived, because they removed the minimum placement requirement, they practically expedited approval for multiple schools and have continued to do so, and they have let schools define how they wish to "meet" the clinical rotation requirements with virtually no oversight or regulation.

I have long lost what little faith I had in them as an organization to do what is best for the DO degree, DO students, or DO physicians.
AOA: "More DOs good!"
 
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