Bummed out

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spacetygrss

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Hi guys!

I just got my surgery rotation grade. I only got a pass. I have NO idea how this happened. I blew the mini-board/shelf exam out of the water. I did well on the essay exam. My evaluations from the course director and the Chief resident from the first half of the rotation (we switch services/rotation sites half way through the rotation) were steller (honors/high pass). However, the chief resident and the chairman of the department for my second rotation site apparantly hated me! The CR said that I was unenthusiastic, didn't prepare for cases and tried to hide from the OR (none of which is true...I LOVED surgery and worked my butt off!)! To top it all off, an attending that I didn't even work with did an evaluation and said that she could tell from my "demeanor" that I wasn't interested in surgery. WTH!?!😡 Needless to say, I am MAD.

What I really don't get is how in 10 areas that I was evaluated I recieved HP or H in 7 of them. While recieving just pass in the other three. Yet, it somehow averaged to a pass. Doesn't make since.

Anyhow, does this mean that if I am interested in surgery that I should just forget it? I mean, General surgery is getting more competitive and I don't how good a "pass" is going to be. What if I am interested in Anesthesia?

Advice please! :scared:
 
You've hit exactly what I hate, hate, hate about 3rd year. Grading based on subjective opinion rather than objective fact. I've heard other horror stories similar to yours.

During my peds rotation my assigned intern was repeating her first year because she transfered in from another program. She had a major pissed-off attitude that rubbed off on everybody, including the medical students who she evaluated. All of her evaluations were in the pass/high-pass at best and she honored nobody. We lucked out because the course director scaled intern responses as less important than attendings.

I'm sorry you got the royal screw from your gig. I've heard all you have to do is honor a few sub-i's next year and you're set if you want to match surgery.
 
that one grade will hurt your application, but by itself it definitely won't keep you out of general surgery. Even if you don't honor your sub-i's, a good audition rotation can get the job done.
 
You know, I was in a somewhat similar situation last year, and I talked to my attending. Luckily, she was understanding enough to change my grade. I would talk to the chairman and the attending if I were you--you have nothing to lose, they can't fail you now. Plus, it sounds like they weren't even sure who you were---they may have mistaken you for somebody else!
 
Originally posted by Flipchick
You know, I was in a somewhat similar situation last year, and I talked to my attending. Luckily, she was understanding enough to change my grade. I would talk to the chairman and the attending if I were you--you have nothing to lose, they can't fail you now. Plus, it sounds like they weren't even sure who you were---they may have mistaken you for somebody else!
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You know, I think that I might just have to take that advice b/c I don't know how people could seriously say the things that they said (it's not like I could become a slacker overnight between changing rotation sites!).

Thanks for the encouragement everyone!
 
Frankly,

I think it's a good idea to approach the attendings/residents who gave you evaluations and find out more specifics on how they graded you. Everyone has a different perception of reality, and it would be definitely worthwhile for you to approach them to find out what they thought. However, I wouldn't go in demanding or requesting a grade change.

After this, go see the clerkship director or site director and get his/her opinion of the matter.

At my school we have individual clerkship directors for each hospital site. But we also have an overseeingn course director. If your school has a similar situation, go right to the top, but remember to work your way up the chain.
 
Originally posted by bobbyseal
Frankly,

I think it's a good idea to approach the attendings/residents who gave you evaluations and find out more specifics on how they graded you. Everyone has a different perception of reality, and it would be definitely worthwhile for you to approach them to find out what they thought. However, I wouldn't go in demanding or requesting a grade change.

After this, go see the clerkship director or site director and get his/her opinion of the matter.

At my school we have individual clerkship directors for each hospital site. But we also have an overseeingn course director. If your school has a similar situation, go right to the top, but remember to work your way up the chain.
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I would like to talk to the attendings/residents that gave the evaluations. The problem is that this different rotation site is not even in the same city! It's in a suburb that takes almost an hour to get to!

I talked to my advisor and apparantly this isn't the first time that students have complained about these particular attendings/residents. He told me to make an appointment with the course director and talk to him about it b/c this shouldn't keep happening.

Incidently, I talked to one of the other students who rotated at this site with me and the SAME people gave him the same horrible evals!!!!!

Something's seriously up with that! 😡
 
I had a similar experience in OB rather than surgery. I feel your pain. Try everything you can to get this worked out, but most likely the grade will stand🙁 Hopefully you will be able to help other student in the future by ensuring that the course director and school know what is going on. Good luck and let us know what happens.
 
spacetygrss,

I sent you a PM.
 
Holy crap. I just got my surgery eval today and pretty much same thing happened to me. I got a glowing eval, saying that I had a wide fund of knowledge, I was enthusiastic and caring, and commenting me on my "phenomenal" presentation. My preceptor said I was well-liked by him and the housestaff, and wrote "high pass" at the bottom of the eval. However, my school only gives out honors/pass/fail, so my official grade is pass.

I also am interested in surgery, and I'm so bummed right now.

I am planning to go talk to my preceptor, who wrote the eval, and just ask him what I could have done differently. It might have been the shelf (although that was supposedly only 10% of the grade) - I haven't checked to see what I got on it yet. I had surgery first, and we took the shelf after just 5 weeks, so I definitely didn't feel prepared for it.
AArrgghh. I worked my ass off first and second year to get honors in almost all my classes and studied hard to crush the boards, but I feel like I'm dropping the ball here in third year-the most important factor in getting interviews at good programs.

Well, it's nice to be able to do a little anonymous whining here.+pissed+
 
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Hi,

That's why I sort of laugh when I hear people say that third year grades are the most important for residency selection.

In my first rotation, every one of us not only received the same grade, but the preceptor wrote the exact same comments in the narrative section.

In my next rotation, I was evaluated by someone who I never even met.

Then, when I asked for a letter of recommendation, they told me to write my own.

Interesting.
 
Third year was quite possibly the worst year of my life. I've never worked so hard to feel like such a loser. The worst feeling in the world is working your ass off to have that mark of mediocrity, the high pass, stamped on your eval while the chair beams from ear to ear to tell you what a great guy you are and what a golden future you have. One guy even gave me an honors/high pass because he couldnt' make up his mind! And you all can guess what I got in the end! 🙄 And while some people DO work very hard and have great bedside manneers, I was disgusted when the ass kissers royale and back stabbers got honors for their shameless behavior. On graduation day, I'm gonna rip their beating hearts out of their chest and shove it in their face so they can appreciate just how black it is before they die. Anyways, let's face it, third year is straight up horse-****, I went in bright eyed and bushy tailed, and came out bitter and frustrated. Despite all the negativity above though, my advice is to keep doing your best... If you do that, you can never say that I should have tried harder, and I'm sure that success will come, whether its honors in another rotation, or completing the hell that is 3rd year.
 
wow, what a bitter, bitter man...😀 Actually, I will help you rip out their spleens with a rusty spoon! More beer for fourth year!
 
Well, I just returned with my meeting with the course director. He was very positive with me. He can't change my grade because it's already turned in to the Assist. Dean (I'd actually have to get the Dean to change it and he already told all of us that he NEVER changes grades). However, he is hooking me up w/ research and writing me a kick-a** letter of recommendation. So that's at least good. 🙂

He was just really encouraging. He is aware of how I (and my classmates) were screwed by the resident/attending and has already started taking steps to correct the situation so that future students don't have to deal with the same problem (not to mention that my advisor had already talked to the course director about the situation---he said that this has happened before). I just wish that it happened ever happened in the first place. 🙁

I'll just keep my fingers crossed and pray that he wasn't just talking for the heck of it.
 
my obgyn rotation grades were bad (B-)...and i felt depressed .ppl told me to and talk to my attending (who has not worked with me at all). i just did not have the guts to do it .
on top of every thing he told us that we wold have an oral exam one on one and the day before the exam...he changed it to a written exam
i worked my butt off and since i speak spanish stayed overtime to translate and help...and that is what i get
thank s to all of your posts ...i am going to talk to him shortly

:clap: thanks
 
If you look at the medical school transcripts of all current surgical residents, I am willing to bet that a fair number of these individuals did not honor their surgical clerkship during the third year of medical school. I say that because I personally know of a number of students (over the years) who passed/high passed their third year surgery clerkship and then went on to match into some wonderful surgery residency programs. Many of these individuals strengthened their application by securing outstanding grades/evaluations during other surgical rotations/subinternship. Remember also that your clerkship grade is just one part of your application.

With all clinical clerkships, strive to do the best that you can do.
Realize, however, that despite your best efforts, you may not be rewarded with the grade you feel you deserve. I know it's not fair but the system, as you can see from many of these posts, is far from perfect.

To avoid any surprises in terms of grading at the end of the rotation, it is important to seek feedback about your performance. Too often, students are hesitant to do this and they simply assume, because they haven't been told otherwise, that they are doing well. Many of these students are disappointed when they read their evaluation and learn that their evaluators didn't think they were doing as good of a job as they thought they were.

At a minimum, there should be a mid-rotation meeting between student and every evaluator. That means, you should sit down with the attending and resident (separately) and talk specifics about your performance. Don't settle for vague statements. You know what you will be evaluated on at the end of the month - ask your evaluators to specifically comment on your fund of knowledge, problem-solving, etc. If you do receive periodic feedback, you are less likely to be surprised at the end of the rotation when you learn of your grade.

If you are puzzled by a grade you receive during the third year, you should not be afraid to meet with the evaluator. During this meeting, do not be argumentative but try to understand why the evaluator gave you the grade he or she did. If it still seems unjust to you, you can certainly approach the course director. Grades can and are changed after these types of discussions. Even if the grade is not changed, through this process, you may learn more about your performance and use that knowledge to your benefit in future rotations.

Samir Desai, MD
 
Often times the grade is based on how much ass you kiss and how you get along with the residents. How much scut you do, how little you annoy the residents and how much fake enthusiasm you can show. It frequently has nothing to do with your fund of knowledge or problem solving.

I hated those out of touch academic attendings who would grill poor medical students at morning rounds and then write how they dont show interest or are not motivated in their evals. They would say how important it is to obtain feedback, but then would not even learn the rotators names- but offered detailed criticism of their performance. Those bitter bags in medicine and surgery know they fuc*ed up and take it out on poor students.

The whole third year is a big game with a small element of skill. Remember that. Its like playing blackjack. No amount of feedback will save you. Just work hard, keep your head up and try to avoid conflict. Kiss ass- some students are good at doing this in a subtle way. A good steady performance will not exclude you from most fields.


My most important advice is to schedule electives in subspecialties- derm, radiology, path, anesthesia, etc early in you fourth year. Most docs in these fields are happy. If you can at all tolerate this work, then do not resign yourself to a life of medicine.
 
Unfortunately, 3rd year is beginning to suck for me too ...
 
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WOW! thank you so much for posting this thread, I thought I was the only one on here not racking up Honors after Honors and impressing everyone in sight.. I got a High Pass in Psychiatry, but only a Pass in Pediatrics, which a lot of people Honor🙁 However, the Pass was very much expected as my evaluation was based entirely on the opinions of two residents who were catty and bitchy every step of the way. One of them was a Family Medicine intern rotating through the service who is known for being high-strung (why on earth she evaluated me in a specialty in which she is not even training I don't know!), and not ONE attending had any input in my evaluation (nor did anyone I worked with on outpatient Peds, which "does not count" in the grade). I got along with other interns as well, but they were not consulted. I wrote a letter to the Dean of Students politely asking for a re-evaluation of the grade, and the situation is "currently under review by the course director." I'm not even going into Pediatrics at this point, but I know that IM (and possibly OB/GYN) programs look at the Peds grade, so I think it's worth fighting for.
On a better note, I had a GREAT time on Surgery, in fact, such a good time that I don't really care if I get a Pass and not higher. Any current Tufts students or those considering TUSM, you just have to do your rotation at NEMC/Faulkner (BWH affiliate with awesome residents), can't go wrong with either hospital in spite of the rumors...
Good luck to everyone, I guess we shouldn't worry too much.
 
Third year rotations are wearing on me as well. I was on call last night for my OB/Gyn rotation, and I felt like could not do anything right. I had to assist with 4 c-sections because they insist on having a student in every section if possible, so I didn't get a single vag delivery all night. I can't stand sections, because during the entire procedure, am largely ignored when I'm not being criticized on my suction and retraction technique. I came home this morning feeling like I'm in intensive operating room tech school instead of medical school. No teaching all night AT ALL. And when I tried to ask questions about one case, I was told that I really should have done an H and P on the patient who came in for a scheduled, repeat c-section (which no one every told me was expected of me, and I wasn't even aware this patient was coming in until 1/2 hour prior to the case.)

I feel like so much of this year consists of no one telling students what is expected of them, but everyone getting pissed off for not reading their minds.
 
well, I went to talk to the Dean about my situation re: Peds today and it did NOT go well. Turns out she didn't even bother to read my letter to hear my well-written side of the situation, and said "well, a few of the residents wanted to give you an even lower grade b/c there were concerns about your interpersonal skills. Plus, it is VERY unusual to not get along with more than one resident at once (wonder when she did a Medline search to prove that little 'fact of life')." She also failed to notice that I received high marks in Psychiatry for "genuine concern for patients and good communication with the team"(gee, sounds like horrible interpersonal skills to me 🙄 ), and that I got along great with the vast majority of residents and students on Surgery (and believe me, my judgement isn't so terrible that I'd misinterpret that). And after trying to knock me down by telling me what a weird social misfit I was who made people (i.e. 1 bitchy FM resident who yelled at me in front of patients and children, oh so professional) uncomfortable, she then told me that I should have better self-esteem and not care what people thought! Ah, such a thoughtful evaluation for someone who wasn't there when the suicidal, homeless patient in the ER told me I was the only person in the hospital who treated him like an actual person, and who wasn't there when an anxious patient who just woke up from a breast biopsy reached out for my hand while waiting for the doctor to come back in and tell her she very likely had a benign fibroadenoma. Sounds like a socially inept misfit to me! I told the Dean politely that I did not agree with the Peds' residents assesments and that I felt my interpersonal skills had been more than up to par in situations where I didn't have to deal with that awful resident waiting to pounce. granted, there are always areas where I can improve (in fact, anyone who doesn't think that about themselves is in big trouble).. she was not thrilled at my assessment, but at this point I just don't care; I am not going to let uninformed opinions ruin my life anymore. time to get on with it and just do my best on other rotations. feel free to bash if you will..
 
Relax. Dont take it personally. If you have made it this far, then you interpersonal skills are fine, as you have pointed out. This type of situation happens to most students.

3rd year sucks ass. No doubt about it. Bitter residents/attendings dumping on medical students. Just stay comsistent- dont stand out in any way. You will be fine.
 
sorry to hear about that experience irlandesa. i hate these things about 3rd year, which in more ways than not seems like a personality contest. What I have learned is that its best to know your role (which in some cases means stand and smile and not ruffle anyone's feathers or question anyone), but at the same time seem enthusiastic (read fake!) even about topics you already know pretty well as the people evaluating you always assume you know nothing at first. NEVER COMPLAIN about anything in public!
 
Originally posted by scootad.
sorry to hear about that experience irlandesa. i hate these things about 3rd year, which in more ways than not seems like a personality contest. What I have learned is that its best to know your role (which in some cases means stand and smile and not ruffle anyone's feathers or question anyone), but at the same time seem enthusiastic (read fake!) even about topics you already know pretty well as the people evaluating you always assume you know nothing at first. NEVER COMPLAIN about anything in public!
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yeah, I didn't have too much trouble doing those things you mentioned; if anything I was a little too nice and quiet. I would add kissing @$$ as much as possible and pretending to be interested in every resident's specialty even if you are not. Had I pretended to be strongly interested in Family Medicine as opposed to Internal Medicine (the fact that I acknowledged that FM is a great specialty (sincerely) wasn't quite enough), I probably would not have had so many problems with that fake-o resident. I think I also fell down in failing to constantly keep a smile on my face around this one student who was insufferable and insisted on reminding us that his dad was a doctor and alum of our school at least 50x/day (the residents loved him). Oh, well, I did better on Surgery, and am with a great group of students on OB/GYN, so things should continue to improve. thanks for the kind words, everyone, and Happy Holidays.
 
Originally posted by oldandtired
Often times the grade is based on how much ass you kiss and how you get along with the residents. How much scut you do, how little you annoy the residents and how much fake enthusiasm you can show. It frequently has nothing to do with your fund of knowledge or problem solving.
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Very well put. I couldn't agree more. I got screwed on my OB grade because I apparently pissed off ONE resident- who promptly told all the other residents how awful I was. All I did was ask a question about a procedure in front of a patient- ok, so I shouldn't have asked in front of the patient, but I was a newbie and didn't know better. For whatever bizarre reason, the resident got REALLY pissed, told me my line of questioning was disparaging and undermined the work she was trying to do! WTF?? So I apologized profusely, obviously to no avail. Since then, other students have told me that the residents apparently tell all future crops of students NOT to ask annoying questions in front of patients because they really slammed a student for that previously. Lesson learned the hard way...
I'll be so glad when 3rd year is over. We're halfway there!
 
Originally posted by kd
Very well put. I couldn't agree more. I got screwed on my OB grade because I apparently pissed off ONE resident- who promptly told all the other residents how awful I was. All I did was ask a question about a procedure in front of a patient- ok, so I shouldn't have asked in front of the patient, but I was a newbie and didn't know better. For whatever bizarre reason, the resident got REALLY pissed, told me my line of questioning was disparaging and undermined the work she was trying to do! WTF?? So I apologized profusely, obviously to no avail. Since then, other students have told me that the residents apparently tell all future crops of students NOT to ask annoying questions in front of patients because they really slammed a student for that previously. Lesson learned the hard way...
I'll be so glad when 3rd year is over. We're halfway there!
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ugh, sounds like an awful experience, sorry to hear about that kd. however, doesn't surprise me given my experience in Peds. What really gets me is the outright dishonesty of the residents; my senior resident in Peds gave me a big phony smile during her private evaluation with me and told me that I had really improved and that "you guys all did a great job." Sorry, residents, but it is your job to teach and give honest feedback so that we can learn and improve when we need to. I am not paying nearly 40K/yr in tuition to be fibbed to, or at the other extreme, yelled at in front of patients for minor mistakes. True, I could do much better about asking for feedback, and intend to in the future, but no one should have to beg residents to do their job.
 
Wow, irlandesa, that reminds me of what happened to me in medicine clerkship. We had been meeting with our "preceptor" 3 times a week presenting cases for 4 weeks (for a total of 12 meetings). We also met with this other woman (who was not our preceptor but an attending) 3 times total, not to present cases, but to actually learn ambulatory medicine. Anyway, during my exit interview with this woman, she was reading back the feedback from the "preceptor" which was all positive. like "the preceptor thought you were extremely personable, professional. Superior knowledge base. Your presentations were terrific, writeups outstanding, etc."

And then 3 months later I get my grade on sheet of paper which included comments. So the comment from that hospital were not those of my "preceptor" but of that woman we had met a grand total of 3 times during the rotation. And she said "he was extremely shy. Knew the answers to questions when prompted but was overshadowed by the other more outspoken students."

WTF?!!!
 
Originally posted by kcrd
And when I tried to ask questions about one case, I was told that I really should have done an H and P on the patient who came in for a scheduled, repeat c-section (which no one every told me was expected of me, and I wasn't even aware this patient was coming in until 1/2 hour prior to the case.)

I feel like so much of this year consists of no one telling students what is expected of them, but everyone getting pissed off for not reading their minds.
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oh my god. This totally happened to me half way through my surgery rotation. It was horrible.
 
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"I feel like so much of this year consists of no one telling students what is expected of them, but everyone getting pissed off for not reading their minds. "


Wait til' you are a resident:laugh:
 
I had an interesting thing said to me today in a debreifing session for my IM rotation:

I mentioned that I wished I'd been able to get to know a senior doctor well enough throughout the IM rotation to feel comfortable asking for a LOR that would be genuine. All the docs on my ward were so busy, I never felt like I connected with anyone very well.

The response?

"Doctors can tell everything they need to know about a student after working with them for less than a day. Doctors either recongnize you as someone like them (= good rec) or not like them (=bad rec, and "not good match for the specialty")"

Maybe that's the reality of things - I'm not a busy important doc so I wouldn't know. But what a disturbing "reality". Why try? Before I even introduce my name, the doc already knows everything they think about me. I STILL haven't decided what I think of some classmates I've been with for 3 years now.

Seems like, during 3rd year at least, those who really excell and those who stay in the middle of the pack are chosen entirely at random. All you can do is try hard and pray for rain.
 
Dang! Seems like third year is going to suck. I just have noticed a commonality on many of the posts you guys are writing. It seems that many of the bad recommendations and encounters have been with female residents. Is this a coincidence or does this seem to be the norm? Are female residents more rude and demanding than the male residents? If so, I am going to avoid ruffling their feathers at whatever cost. 😀
 
DON'T EVEN START THE GENDER THING!!

There's good and bad residents of both sexes. Don't ruffle anyone's feathers, as a rule, and things will be ok.
 
Glad to know I am not the only one who is disgusted with third year. I wish to God someone would just warn you who has been through this BS that it's basically just another hoop to jump through till you get that damn MD and can do whatever the hell you want. If I hear one more person sugarcoat about how third year is designed to "explore the possibilities and open your eyes to the excitement of clinical practice" I just might puke. Third year is about knowing what jerks to avoid, trying like hell to find out what these residents and attendings are REALLY expecting of you but not telling you, and riding that fine line between being memorable enough for evaluators to recognize your name but not memorable enough for them to recall anything you may have screwed up. It's got to be the most excellent training for politics that I can imagine. Being a third year clerk is akin to walking around with a sign on your forehead that reads, "Go ahead, abuse me, treat me unfairly to make yourselves feel more powerful, afterall, you know I have no recourse. I exist for you to dump on me, because I am just a lowly medical student." I can't wait until this BS is over. One can only fake happiness for so long. And pretending to blissfully not notice when you're being crapped on is geting old too. The plus I keep reminding myself of is that after this crap is over, I will be able to handle anything. Hope I haven't offended anyone with my analysis of third year. We'll just all have to keep plugging away- eventually it WILL end. Good luck to everyone else....
 
Wow...it really amazes me to see how people's experiences differ. I really feel bad that some people have had such horrible experiences with their rotations. I am feeling very fortunate with all I have done. I have never been yelled at, scutted out, or made to feel like a whipping post....

Either way....3rd year will be over in 4 months, and then we are in the home stretch...

Happy and Healthy New Year to All!!!
 
Hi there,

You can't do much about your Surgery grade at this point. You passed and it's history. You can seek some feedback from your attendings and chief resident but your grade isn't likely to change.

What you can do is take stock of your performance and re-tool anything that needs re-tooling. While I do not doubt for a minute that you are a great student, there is room for improvement always. Learn from any mistakes that you might have made and work on any weaknesses. There is lots of third year still ahead of you.

If you are truly interested in Surgery, you can do some audition rotations at the programs and be impressive. You can get good grades in other rotations and chalk this one up to experience. All residency program directors know that third year grades are very subjective. This is the nature of the process and nothing more. A passing grade in Surgery is not going to kick you out of getting a good residency. You still have plenty of opportunities to show professional excellence, professional growth and desire.

Be sure to get some good letters of recommendation from Surgery faculty who know you well and know your true capabilities. Make sure that you have good solid technical skills too.

This one's a wrap so move on and keep doing well!

njbmd🙂
 
Originally posted by Yosh

Either way....3rd year will be over in 4 months, and then we are in the home stretch...
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This thought absolutely terrifies me!!! :scared: I know deep down that I know some things, but I feel like I don't know anything 😱

But I am with Yosh, so far my third year has been great. I've had a few attendings who make smart-alecky comments to me, but I don't let it bother me. I haven't been pimped too much, and when I have it has been for the sake of learning, not to make me look like an idiot (although I feel that way on my own a lot!). I've only had a few scut-work experiences (like running around the hospital like a chicken with its head cut off looking for X-rays).

Third year beats first and second years by a landslide...
 
I think that each of your experiences are unfortunate, but not universal. It depends on the institution. Personally, I did my best, and felt that all of my final grades were fair enough. Yes, I felt I deserved better on some, but you can't let that get you down or make you stop being yourself. I tried to learn from each experience.

In truth, though, I LOVED third year. I FINALLY got to feel like I was starting my doctor training. The first two years of academia were more of a burden (college overtime). I learned far more of the nitty gritty of medicine in the third year than I did in the first two...and my hard work during that year has continued to pay off (Step II, 4th year, Interviews). I am sure I will always remember so many of my patients, attendings and residents (good and bad) from that year.

BTW, I did manage some honors and never kissed an a$$. Also, I am going into ENT and that happened to be one of those I did not honor...still got plenty of interviews and I feel I won't go far down my rank list. Overall performance in all three years, boards, LORs and research are more imporatant than a single rotation.

OtoNerd B)
 
Good God!! Where do you people go to school? I admit that third year was tough, but I also think that it was one of the periods of greatest personal growth for me. I look back at where I was on my first day of rotations and then look at myself today and am amazed at the changes.

I guess I need to count myself even more lucky to go to school where I do. There are social deviants out there in all walks of life, but my only rotation it which it was the culture was OB/GYN (and those b@stards can go shove it).
 
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Actually, third year has been awesome overall at TUSM.. I loved Psych, outpt. Peds, and Surgery; it was just a bit of bad luck that I got such bad residents and that obnoxious student and his friends on inpatient peds. I disagree that it has to do with the institution; it seems that pretty much everyone encounters a nasty resident or has a less than great rotation out there at some time or another, and it doesn't matter whether you are an MD or DO student, or where you go. Perfect example: one of the BWH residents I worked with on Surgery told me that the OB/GYN residents at MGH (argued to be one of the world's best hospitals) were very cranky and only let him assist on 1 vaginal delivery while he was a student at Harvard. Interestingly enough, OB/GYN is going very well so far; but I am on the GYN service first and we had only 1 admit all week and a laproscopic tubal ligation today. Weird, b/c OB/GYN at NEMC is supposed to be the worst rotation..

oh yeah, remember my bad "interpersonal skills" with the residents? I took another look at my evaluation a few days ago and the clerkship director specifically gave me a "High Pass" in that area and an "Honors" for "mature conduct." hah, go figure. well, I'm not pursuing it any further..

and resident gender has proven to be pretty much irrelevant so far; the female residents on Psych were all very nice, and the best chief resident I've worked with so far is female (Surgery at Faulkner Hospital).
 
I have had two instances where I had sub par residents working with me -- in the medicine rotation.

The first one sucked so bad that me and the other student complained to the chiefs. They dealt with her and made sure that she would have no role in our evaluations.

The second guy was just a twit and ***** and scutted me out and I didn't feel like I could complain because what would my complaint be? "I can't stand the guy." "I don't like him." So I never said anything. Turns out at the end of the rotation they gave us extensive "exit interviews" and I told them (program director and chief resident) about my issues and they completely agreed with me and told me I should have said something sooner and they would have done something about it.

Interestingly, attendings and course directors are always telling us we should never take abuse or be made to feel like crap by anyone. They tell us to immediately come to them or complain to a superior on the food chain. I am not used to this approach because I have absorbed the mentalitity that it is ok to take crap because we are lowly 3rd years. And in the first 2 years of school our administrators were heartless bastards that had no compassion for students at all. So we students have been trained not to speak up for ourselves, not to complain, not to care if our feelings are hurt.

Well this is crap. We have to stand up for ourselves. We are not there to take abuse. However, it is often socially awkward or even dangerous to speak up. But if we utilize the heirarchy and the chiefs to our advantage it can be done.
 
I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but some of you need a reality check! You seem to think residents enjoy torturing students and have NO IDEA how hard you have it! They seem to be oblivious to your plight! Has it escaped you that all these residents and attendings have also been students?!?!?! If you are truly being mistreated you should speak out. But before you do, take a long, hard look at your own behavior. As a third year resident, I've superised MANY students and feel I have a pretty good grasp of the situation. Here's my take regarding your various complaints.

1. Enthusiasm for the specialty you have no interest in. I don't CARE that you don't want to go into my specialty, YOU ARE A MEDICAL STUDENT and as such need to aquire a certain level of knowledge. All physicians should have a rudimentary knowledge of other core specialties. If it wasn't considered important it wouldn't be a core rotation.

2. Kissing ass. NO ONE LIKES A BROWN NOSER. If you think we can't immediately ID these people you are sorely mistaken. Just because we don't acknowledge and deal with them publicly doesn't mean we don't address the problem privately. However, having said that, I'll also add that students who are pleaseant and helpful are always appreciated. Who wants an dingus around?!?!?!?!

3. Grading. These days eveyone seems to think they deserve honors!?!?!?!?! Honors in clinical rotations are not like honors in the basic sciences. Like it or not, the clinical years are an introduction to the REAL WORLD! It is not enough to know the material. Just like in the real world, it is about "taking care of business" and being a team player. I grade in the following way:

Honors-student is above average in the following categories: knowledge base, work ethic, interpersonal skills, enthusiasm.

High Pass-students knowledge base is average or even slightly below average but has above average work ethic, interpersonal skills and enthusiasm.

Pass/Low Pass-everyone else. I don't care how much you know, if you're difficult to deal with, unprofessional, uncaring or lazy you won't get better than pass.

Fail-I've never actually failed a student, but I've come close a couple of times.

4. Scut. If you are being scutted, it is usually due to one of two reasons. A. The resident is too busy to get you more involved in direct patient care. This should NOT last the entire rotation but there are days I'm just too busy to give you your own patients and need your help looking up labs, getting films, calling in consults, etc. If this happens, I will ALWAYS make it up to you. B. There is something wrong with you and the resident is not comfortable giving you your own patients. Or, you're a jerkoff and don't deserve your own patients. I personally love torturing lazy/rude students. On the other hand, I really enjoy rewarding hardworking students with interesting patients, good teaching, no scut and friday afternoons off!

Personally, my third year was a wonderful experience. I had great residents and attendings. Of course, part of that had to do with the fact that I was an older student and had come to med school from another profession. I already knew what the real world was like and understood how to play the game.

Let the flames begin!+pity+
 
Originally posted by PainDr
I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but some of you need a reality check! You seem to think residents enjoy torturing students and have NO IDEA how hard you have it! They seem to be oblivious to your plight! Has it escaped you that all these residents and attendings have also been students?!?!?! If you are truly being mistreated you should speak out. But before you do, take a long, hard look at your own behavior. As a third year resident, I've superised MANY students and feel I have a pretty good grasp of the situation. Here's my take regarding your various complaints.

1. Enthusiasm for the specialty you have no interest in. I don't CARE that you don't want to go into my specialty, YOU ARE A MEDICAL STUDENT and as such need to aquire a certain level of knowledge. All physicians should have a rudimentary knowledge of other core specialties. If it wasn't considered important it wouldn't be a core rotation.

2. Kissing ass. NO ONE LIKES A BROWN NOSER. If you think we can't immediately ID these people you are sorely mistaken. Just because we don't acknowledge and deal with them publicly doesn't mean we don't address the problem privately. However, having said that, I'll also add that students who are pleaseant and helpful are always appreciated. Who wants an dingus around?!?!?!?!

3. Grading. These days eveyone seems to think they deserve honors!?!?!?!?! Honors in clinical rotations are not like honors in the basic sciences. Like it or not, the clinical years are an introduction to the REAL WORLD! It is not enough to know the material. Just like in the real world, it is about "taking care of business" and being a team player. I grade in the following way:

Honors-student is above average in the following categories: knowledge base, work ethic, interpersonal skills, enthusiasm.

High Pass-students knowledge base is average or even slightly below average but has above average work ethic, interpersonal skills and enthusiasm.

Pass/Low Pass-everyone else. I don't care how much you know, if you're difficult to deal with, unprofessional, uncaring or lazy you won't get better than pass.

Fail-I've never actually failed a student, but I've come close a couple of times.

4. Scut. If you are being scutted, it is usually due to one of two reasons. A. The resident is too busy to get you more involved in direct patient care. This should NOT last the entire rotation but there are days I'm just too busy to give you your own patients and need your help looking up labs, getting films, calling in consults, etc. If this happens, I will ALWAYS make it up to you. B. There is something wrong with you and the resident is not comfortable giving you your own patients. Or, you're a jerkoff and don't deserve your own patients. I personally love torturing lazy/rude students. On the other hand, I really enjoy rewarding hardworking students with interesting patients, good teaching, no scut and friday afternoons off!

Personally, my third year was a wonderful experience. I had great residents and attendings. Of course, part of that had to do with the fact that I was an older student and had come to med school from another profession. I already knew what the real world was like and understood how to play the game.

Let the flames begin!+pity+
Click to expand...

look, I don't care if a resident scuts me or scolds me, all I ask is to be told in a relatively polite, constructive, and adult manner (not screaming or cursing) if I am doing something seriously wrong so that I can have a chance to correct the problem. The residents in Peds were grossly neglient in doing this (I can think of ways to improve, but can't think of exactly how or to what degree I failed). I think one serious mistake some residents make is assuming that someone is just an undeserving jackass b/c of one mistake or error or moment of nervousness. Give US a break, who doesn't say or do something stupid at one time or another (yes, even non-traditional students with real world exposure!)? Granted, there are students like the one I mentioned who can't seem to stop himself from insincere brown nosing, interrupting other people and bragging about Dad's MD every 10 seconds, but most of us aren't so bad as you did note to some degree.

oh yeah, maybe you should meet the FM resident I told you about before you make the judgement that I didn't understand my place in the hierarchy or make an effort to learn from her.. I will be happy to arrange that if you wish to supervise her for a day😛. I actually agree with you that the attendings and residents are usually good judges of character, knowledge, and clinical judgement of students, BUT the fact is that residents can and do make gross errors in judgement, and this is one of the points of the thread.

OK, no more participation in this discusssion for me, enjoy..
 
Any resident who judges your entire performance based on one faux pau is an ass who should be reported!
 
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