California D.O. friendly? Deciding my LIFE!

[VooDooo327]

I was wandering if California, specifically Southern California (LA area), is a D.O. friendly location. I can see that as far as percentages go only about 3-5% of the total physicians are DO's in California (WIKI!). I wouldn't want to get a DO and have a more difficult time finding a job here than if I were to get an MD. I just find it odd that California has 2 DO schools but the % of DO's is still pretty low. Working in a few hospitals I have yet to run into a DO and haven't even heard of DO until this year.

My dilemma: Time is running out? I got into 3 DO schools (TOURO-NV, TOURO-CA, and NOVA) and only like NOVA (placed my deposit here just in case). I was waitlisted at Western (if I get in here my scale might tip significantly since it's in S. California). I am waitlisted at EVMS (first choice as of right now) and am hold at a few more US-Allo. schools. I also got into SGU. If I were not to get any other acceptances it would be NOVA or SGU. As far as distance from home, both schools are pretty much far as hell from S. California and both pretty expensive. Reading on this forum I see that a lot of people say DO >>> Carib MD.

But, I am pretty sure I can do well either way: I don't think I will fail out and I think I can study and do well on STEP 1 (I've done pretty well at UCLA and have a decent MCAT). However, I have 3 relatives who just came out of SGU and doing what they wanted where they wanted and suggest SGU. So, what I think would be a deciding factor for me is how the D.O. is seen in S. California. If I were to apply for the job as a DO against someone who is equally as qualified but an MD, who would get the job?

Increasingly paranoid and bored at work. THANKS!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Morsetlis]

DO >>> SGU. Yes, there are a LOT of good SGU graduates! I know two of them! However, are they specialized outside of primary care? The appeal of DO over Carib. MD, from a purely selfish point of view, is that DO's gets into many more specialty residency positions (and just overall) than Carib. MD's, even though SGU is the best of the best Carib. MD schools.

Finally, it's easier to finance DO education, and your training will be a lot better as well.

Discrimination against DO's come in the form of private group practices.

I don't know if California is DO-friendly, but the SDOMA.org is pretty friendly! I was at the monthly CME yesterday and all the DO's were willing to talk to me. Among them, I found a lot of family practice, internal medicine, and psychiatry. However, there was a general surgeon and ER doc too (and a few more that I didn't remember the nametags of). A surprising amount of them were military-affiliated.

Nobody can decide your life for you, but for myself, it's MD = DO >>> Carib. MD.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I was wandering if California, specifically Southern California (LA area), is a D.O. friendly location. I can see that as far as percentages go only about 3-5% of the total physicians are DO's in California (WIKI!). I wouldn't want to get a DO and have a more difficult time finding a job here than if I were to get an MD. I just find it odd that California has 2 DO schools but the % of DO's is still pretty low. Working in a few hospitals I have yet to run into a DO and haven't even heard of DO until this year.

My dilemma: Time is running out? I got into 3 DO schools (TOURO-NV, TOURO-CA, and NOVA) and only like NOVA (placed my deposit here just in case). I was waitlisted at Western (if I get in here my scale might tip significantly since it's in S. California). I am waitlisted at EVMS (first choice as of right now) and am hold at a few more US-Allo. schools. I also got into SGU. If I were not to get any other acceptances it would be NOVA or SGU. As far as distance from home, both schools are pretty much far as hell from S. California and both pretty expensive. Reading on this forum I see that a lot of people say DO >>> Carib MD.

But, I am pretty sure I can do well either way: I don't think I will fail out and I think I can study and do well on STEP 1 (I've done pretty well at UCLA and have a decent MCAT). However, I have 3 relatives who just came out of SGU and doing what they wanted where they wanted and suggest SGU. So, what I think would be a deciding factor for me is how the D.O. is seen in S. California. If I were to apply for the job as a DO against someone who is equally as qualified but an MD, who would get the job?

Increasingly paranoid and bored at work. THANKS!

1. Breathe, everything is fine
2. I've lived in So Cal for over 20 years ... let me give you a breakdown of what I've heard/experienced:

So Cal is DO friendly. I worked at a UC Emergency Department for 2 years, the head of the EM department, boss, big dawg, etc, was a DO from Midwestern. However, UC's really aren't too friendly for DOs (as of yet) for residency. I've also seen a DO PCP for 20 years in So Cal. He's literally the biggest PCP in like the three surrounding towns where I live. No joke, like 80% of my friends went to him, etc, he's amazing. He recently decided to quit the group he worked with and open a solo practice. Well in the interim, he went a little MIA ... he was so popular that people started to panic, flooded his office with calls (his old office had to put a message up specifically stating he's alright, just severing ties), AND there was a facebook group made (with hundreds of members) just to locate him and figure out what was going on. This was all within like a month ... because a few weeks later, he sent out a postcard to all his patients saying he's opening up a new shop.

I also know of DO plastic surgeons, cosmetic surgeons, cosmetic dermatologists in LA/Bev Hills, etc, and even know of (through the grapevine) some OMM gurus who are manipulators to the stars.

Despite what you may hear ... I think So Cal is very friendly for practice, not so friendly for residency. HOWEVER, it's not friendly to anyway for residency to be honest. Everyone wants to get into Cali, so the competition for their residency spots is huge and with that many applicants, etc, it's just not going to look great for anyone ... especially a minority (ie smaller numbers) group like DOs.

Now, I've heard some anti-DO things coming out of Nor-Cal (which cracks me up with how open minded they claim to be). However, the worst story I've heard first hand (that's right kids, my uncle's friend who is a surgeon in a large practice didn't tell me, this is first hand) was from a gas man I shadowed in So Cal. He told me one of his buddies worked in a gas group in the bay, and they had an opening, so he asked him to apply. The head of the group said he was a little wary because he was a DO (even though he trained ACGME at a UC) and asked if he could come up and work for a few days. Well, after a few days work, they were begging him to join, and offered him the position over some woman who did some super prestigious residency and cardiac focused fellowship in CA. So, I guess you can say that's "bad." However, be aware that you do not want to live in Nor Cal anyway.

2. Of the choices you have now ... I'd take NOVA over either of the Touros. I know they are closer to CA, but it's a crapload of money, and NOVA is going to give you more bang for your buck. Excellent school. However, if you get off the waitlist at Western, I'd probably pick that over NOVA just for location. If you get off the waitlist at EVMS ... well, then you've got a whole new issue, MD vs DO. Personally, in an ideal world where you had the option of all 4, I'd probably go:

EVMS > Western (debatable because of location though ... I'd probably let cost be a big factor here) > NOVA >>>> Touro NV >>>>>>>>> Touro MI

Oh, don't go to SGU. Period, end of discussion there. You relatives went at a different time ... the whole residency game has changed, it would be a huge mistake to go Caribbean over an established DO school like Nova, or when you're getting bites from US MD.

Well, I think that analysis is pretty fair. Calm down though ... I know attending UCLA makes you paranoid (trust me 😉), but you've got options and you'll be fine.

 

[gocatgo]

EVMS > Western (debatable because of location though ... I'd probably let cost be a big factor here) > NOVA >>>> Touro NV >>>>>>>>> Touro MI

Oh, don't go to SGU. Period, end of discussion there. You relatives went at a different time ... the whole residency game has changed, it would be a huge mistake to go Caribbean over an established DO school like Nova, or when you're getting bites from US MD.

OP, I agree with what Jaggerplate posted, especially the above-mentioned. Maybe 5-10 years ago, SGU would've been a very good option if for whatever reason you chose not to apply to DO---and I am not bashing SGU or DO schools, so please do not flame me---but now, with the unchecked increase in D.O. schools (i.e. William Carey will be admitting their first class, there will be another VCOM branch in S.C., another school opening in Indiana, etc, etc you get the picture) in addition to more M.D. schools and no increase in residency slots at this time, it is not a good idea to go to SGU now. You'll be competing with U.S. M.D./D.O. grads for those residency slots.
I grew up in CA so I understand your concerns too😉

 

[JaggerPlate]

OP, I agree with what Jaggerplate posted, especially the above-mentioned. Maybe 5-10 years ago, SGU would've been a very good option if for whatever reason you chose not to apply to DO---and I am not bashing SGU or DO schools, so please do not flame me---but now, with the unchecked increase in D.O. schools (i.e. William Carey will be admitting their first class, there will be another VCOM branch in S.C., another school opening in Indiana, etc, etc you get the picture) in addition to more M.D. schools and no increase in residency slots at this time, it is not a good idea to go to SGU now. You'll be competing with U.S. M.D./D.O. grads for those residency slots.
I grew up in CA so I understand your concerns too😉

Yeah, DO expansion + slow residency slot expansion is an issue as well.

 

[rawman]

If you like Orange County, there are plenty of DOs there as well. I know from personal experience shadowing/volunteering at a couple of hospitals in the Newport Beach and Irvine areas. I'm sure you'll have no problem finding a job.

 

[Western14]

Now, I've heard some anti-DO things coming out of Nor-Cal (which cracks me up with how open minded they claim to be). However, the worst story I've heard first hand (that's right kids, my uncle's friend who is a surgeon in a large practice didn't tell me, this is first hand) was from a gas man I shadowed in So Cal. He told me one of his buddies worked in a gas group in the bay, and they had an opening, so he asked him to apply. The head of the group said he was a little wary because he was a DO (even though he trained ACGME at a UC) and asked if he could come up and work for a few days. Well, after a few days work, they were begging him to join, and offered him the position over some woman who did some super prestigious residency and cardiac focused fellowship in CA. So, I guess you can say that's "bad." However, be aware that you do not want to live in Nor Cal anyway.

Could you (or anyone else) elaborate on this a little more? I have heard other references to Nor-Cal having a slight DO bias, and I was just wondering exactly what was meant by the comment. From what I have seen in Sac and the rural areas NOrth of SF/Santa Rosa, there are lots of DOs, and the general consensus seems to be that they are great docs (patients rave about them, and several DOs were featured in an article on Sacramento's Top Docs). I'm thinking the comments were about the Bay Area, but I would appreciate any additional info.

Also, regarding competetiveness of CA residencies, does this refer to specialties at the UCs, or to anything in CA? I'm probably a little ignorant about how residency works, but would it be likely for a student from Western to match FM or IM at a UC? What about residencies away from the main campuses, like the UCSF program in Fresno? Also, doesn't Western have lots of residency spots? Basically, is staying in CA for residency a realistic goal after graduating from Western, assuming that the student does reasonably well (and isn't trying for one of the super elite programs)? Thanks for your help.

 

[Western14]

OP, if you're really interested in Western, you might want to think about sending an update/letter of interest. From what I have heard, they have been waitlisting lots of people this year (I guess they overaccepted last year so some spots for this class were already filled). I interviewed in November, got waitlisted, but I was accepted immediately after sending a LOI. Who knows if there's a correlation here, but if you really want to be in SoCal, it can't hurt, right?

 

[HoboCommander]

Anyone know if DO's are active among the LA sports teams?

 

[VooDooo327]

OP, if you're really interested in Western, you might want to think about sending an update/letter of interest. From what I have heard, they have been waitlisting lots of people this year (I guess they overaccepted last year so some spots for this class were already filled). I interviewed in November, got waitlisted, but I was accepted immediately after sending a LOI. Who knows if there's a correlation here, but if you really want to be in SoCal, it can't hurt, right?

Yeah. I just sent them an additional LOR from my lab PI and will write a LOI to them towards the end of February. They asked me the dreaded "did you get into anywhere else?" question at my interview which I would like to think is why I got waitlisted

 

[RG73]

Despite what you may hear ... I think So Cal is very friendly for practice, not so friendly for residency. HOWEVER, it's not friendly to anyway for residency to be honest. Everyone wants to get into Cali, so the competition for their residency spots is huge and with that many applicants, etc, it's just not going to look great for anyone ... especially a minority (ie smaller numbers) group like DOs.

Looking at the 2009 match list for Western, it looks like at least 29 people got AOA residencies in California and at least 66 got ACGME residencies in California (including a bunch of UC, USC, and one Stanford). I'm not sure on the exact numbers because I don't know all of the hospitals on the list, but even at a minimum, that is about half the graduating class. Now I have no idea about the quality of the programs or if people actually wound up where they wanted, but it does seem like you have a pretty reasonable chance of landing a California residency if you go to Western (I have no idea about Touro-CA).

 

[JeetKuneDo]

USC has a few EM residents that are DO, if I remember correctly. One was from Western and one from Kirksville I believe.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Now, I've heard some anti-DO things coming out of Nor-Cal (which cracks me up with how open minded they claim to be). However, the worst story I've heard first hand (that's right kids, my uncle's friend who is a surgeon in a large practice didn't tell me, this is first hand) was from a gas man I shadowed in So Cal. He told me one of his buddies worked in a gas group in the bay, and they had an opening, so he asked him to apply. The head of the group said he was a little wary because he was a DO (even though he trained ACGME at a UC) and asked if he could come up and work for a few days. Well, after a few days work, they were begging him to join, and offered him the position over some woman who did some super prestigious residency and cardiac focused fellowship in CA. So, I guess you can say that's "bad." However, be aware that you do not want to live in Nor Cal anyway.

That is one of the best things I've heard you say ever, and I agree. Nothing beats the southern california weather and women. Go SC Trojans. Fight on.

 

[JaggerPlate]

That is one of the best things I've heard you say ever, and I agree. Nothing beats the southern california weather and women. Go UCLA Bruins.

I agree with the first part, and fixed the second part ...

 

[JaggerPlate]

USC has a few EM residents that are DO, if I remember correctly. One was from Western and one from Kirksville I believe.

Yeah, I know there is at least one DO EM resident at USC right now.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Looking at the 2009 match list for Western, it looks like at least 29 people got AOA residencies in California and at least 66 got ACGME residencies in California (including a bunch of UC, USC, and one Stanford). I'm not sure on the exact numbers because I don't know all of the hospitals on the list, but even at a minimum, that is about half the graduating class. Now I have no idea about the quality of the programs or if people actually wound up where they wanted, but it does seem like you have a pretty reasonable chance of landing a California residency if you go to Western (I have no idea about Touro-CA).

Yeah, Western matches pretty well in CA. Just looked through the 09 list, saw some UC affiliates, not a ton though, some USC, some Loma Linda, pretty impressive all around.

 

[Segovia]

I'm in San Diego and my PCP is a DO. He is at Kaiser and is great. I'm starting at an MD school in the fall at a UC, but I gotta put it out there that my DO is very perceptive and seems to really be on the ball. I am having some gnarly back issues and we have only explored NSAIDs thus far, but I am thinking about hitting him up for some OMM on my next visit 😀

I thought Cali had a large DO population?

 

[IndianVercetti]

i'm not the biggest fan of the guy.. but Dr. Will Kirby on 90210 is a DO

 

[Ibn Rushd]

Looking at the 2009 match list for Western ...

Want to tell me where I can view this list? 😀

 

[HoboCommander]

California has a notorious history of DO struggles. At one point the hospitals even forced DO's to call themselves MD's. DO's were banned outright in the state. Even some DO schools like UC Irvine got converted into MD schools when the MD's kicked out all the DO's.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

California has a notorious history of DO struggles. At one point the hospitals even forced DO's to call themselves MD's. DO's were banned outright in the state. Even some DO schools like UC Irvine got converted into MD schools when the MD's kicked out all the DO's.

Since the OP is just now getting ready to enter med school, I'm guessing he was asking how it is for DOs in present day and not 1965.

 

[RG73]

Want to tell me where I can view this list? 😀

http://www.westernu.edu/bin/osteopathy/opti-west/2009AOAMatch.pdf

 

[tkim]

California has a notorious history of DO struggles. At one point the hospitals even forced DO's to call themselves MD's. DO's were banned outright in the state. Even some DO schools like UC Irvine got converted into MD schools when the MD's kicked out all the DO's.

That was a really bad paraphrasing of the DO history in CA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteop..._California_v._California_Medical_Association

By the 1950's, osteopathic physicians were numerous in California compared to their MD-counterparts, since of the medical school at University of California Irvine was an osteopathic medical school. Nevertheless, osteopathic physicians began to feel victimized by the national image of osteopathic medicine, particularly from those MDs who viewed colleges of osteopathic medicine as teaching "cultist healing."[1]

Leaders of the California Medical Association (CMA) and the California Osteopathic Association (COA) met secretly behind closed doors in the late 1950s to discuss a potential merger between the two medical groups. By May 1961, a contract between CMA and COA was ready to be voted on by their respective House of Delegates. As part of the merger, which was approved in 1962, all graduates from the College of Osteopathic Physicians and Surgeons (COP&S) as well as DOs who held a valid license in the state would be awarded a doctor of medicine degree. Further, those DOs who accepted the MD degree could no longer identify themselves as osteopathic physicians. [1]

As part of the merger agreement, COP&S was renamed as the California College of Medicine and accredited as a MD degree granting institution. Additionally, an initiative, proposition 22, was placed on the state ballot during the November 1962 elections that would limit the osteopathic state licensing board from administering new licensing. It could still renew licenses of DOs until the number of practicing DOs diminished to less than 40, at which time it would be dissolved and the remaining DOs transferred to the jurisdiction of the state medical licensing board. [1]

Meanwhile, the California College of Medicine was adopted by the University of California Regents in 1964 and placed on their Irvine campus in 1968. Ex-DO faculty that received the MD degree in 1962 taught alongside congenital MD faculty for several decades henceforth. In 2007 the college's name was again changed to the University of California at Irvine School of Medicine.

The California Medical Association (CMA) issued MD degrees to all DOs in the state of California for a nominal fee. "By attending a short seminar and paying $65, a doctor of osteopathy (DO) could obtain an MD degree; 86 percent of the DOs in the state (out of a total of about 2000) chose to do so."[2] It also placed a ban on issuing physician licenses to DOs moving to California from other states. However, the decision proved to be controversial.

In 1974, after protest and lobbying by influential and prominent DOs, the California Supreme Court ruled in Osteopathic Physicians and Surgeons of California v. California Medical Association, that licensing of DOs in that state must be resumed.

 

[marke]

if u want to stay in SoCal and got into western, then at least for me, it's a no brainer, western for sure.
Western is well respected in SoCal and they have a strong alumni presence in SoCal. When I try to find a place to shadow a DO in SoCal, majority, I am saying >70% that I found are western grad.
One of the hospital that I rotated through in SoCal ranked top 10 in their family care residency and guess what, they have Western grads in their residency.
In regards to SGU, i personally too know couple outstanding physicians who graduated there... but i can forsee that it might be a problem when u r trying to get into a residency in california plus, the traveling is just horrible! i heard someone who goes to ross that it takes him well over 12 hours sometime to travel to the school from SoCal due to the flight layover etc.
anyways, u got into 3 schools! and either one is great! at the end, it's really all about u! u can go to a great school and ends up not matching a residency, or u can go to a so so school and ends up with a great residency, don't let the school define u, it should be the other way around, it's u who define the school!!!!

 

[VooDooo327]

I just recently sent a LOR from my lab last week and it should get there by this week's end. I was wondering if LOI's should be sent via email or snail mail. I sent out a few letters of interest via snail mail last year but don't know if any of the schools got them or not. Is it moral/ethical to send L of Intent to both western AND EVMS?

 

[ILikeFood]

Now, I've heard some anti-DO things coming out of Nor-Cal (which cracks me up with how open minded they claim to be). However, the worst story I've heard first hand (that's right kids, my uncle's friend who is a surgeon in a large practice didn't tell me, this is first hand) was from a gas man I shadowed in So Cal. He told me one of his buddies worked in a gas group in the bay, and they had an opening, so he asked him to apply. The head of the group said he was a little wary because he was a DO (even though he trained ACGME at a UC) and asked if he could come up and work for a few days. Well, after a few days work, they were begging him to join, and offered him the position over some woman who did some super prestigious residency and cardiac focused fellowship in CA. So, I guess you can say that's "bad." However, be aware that you do not want to live in Nor Cal anyway.

We definitely shadowed the same person. You still keep in contact with him? I shoot him some emails from time to time.

 

[JaggerPlate]

We definitely shadowed the same person. You still keep in contact with him? I shoot him some emails from time to time.

Haven't spoken to him in a while, but I should. I've bumped into a few other people that have shadowed him ... he really does a lot for pre-DO students, and that is cool. Great guy.

 

[VooDooo327]

Bump.

AND...

Is it moral/ethical to send L of Intent to both western AND EVMS? And should I sent it via snail mail of email? I sent some things via snail mail before and didn't get any reply from either school.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Bump.

AND...

Is it moral/ethical to send L of Intent to both western AND EVMS? And should I sent it via snail mail of email? I sent some things via snail mail before and didn't get any reply from either school.

I say you do what you gotta do.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I say you do what you gotta do.

I say you send two letters of 'interest' not two letters of 'intent.' Intent says I 100% guarantee if you offer me a seat I will take it ... sending two, kinda shady. Interest says, I love your program, it's my top choice/one of my top choices, I'm still very interested, etc.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

I say you send two letters of 'interest' not two letters of 'intent.' Intent says I 100% guarantee if you offer me a seat I will take it ... sending two, kinda shady. Interest says, I love your program, it's my top choice/one of my top choices, I'm still very interested, etc.

Say he does send two LOI's, would they be able to find out? Hypothetically speaking, that is. Not that I'd try something like that, but if I really really had to...

 

[JaggerPlate]

Say he does send two LOI's, would they be able to find out? Hypothetically speaking, that is. Not that I'd try something like that, but if I really really had to...

Two letters of intent? No, almost certainly not ... just the ethics of the thing.

 

[Cheshyre]

Two letters of intent? No, almost certainly not ... just the ethics of the thing.

Agreed. There's a great Letter of Intent post floating around somewhere on SDN (perhaps the Re-App forum? Don't remember) where the poster wrote two LOIs. I'm not sure how they were worded, if they were LO interest or intent. They got off the waitlist into both schools and chose one.

To me, if they were letters of intent... eh. It's something I would feel terrible about. Sending a letter of intent and not going to the school in question means you've broken a promise. To me, it undermines your credibility as well as that of the people who've written strong LORs for you. If you get your LOI co-signed (apparently people do this) by a higher-up to give the letter more weight, you've really begun to damage the reputations of others.

I almost sent a LOIntent but scrapped it at the last moment because I even though I was 99% sure that I would commit to the school, I couldn't clear that last 1% hurdle. If I sent two LOIs, perhaps the two schools would never know. Despite that, my reputation matters to me. I care less about what other people think about me and more about holding myself to a standard that I can be proud of, without reservations. In any case, I'm glad I didn't send the LOI. Unexpected things have happened and opportunities I didn't think were open have appeared. I'm still extremely interested in the school I almost sent the LOI to but I have to check up on these other things before I can make my decision in confidence.

 

[VooDooo327]

Yeah I don't think I will be send any LO Intent out anytime soon. However, I am going to send another letter of interest. Should I email them or snail mail it over via priority USPS. Also, I don't have much to update them with so do I just tell them those schools are still my top choices? Thanks for the help!

 

[VooDooo327]

.