Calling All 40+ Med Students

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mafunk

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Are you a medical student or aspiring medical student who applied to med school after the age of 40? If so, can you please share your experience with me. I'm applyint to D.O. school btw.

How old were you when you applied? Enrolled?
How many schools did you apply to and how many accepted you?
What were your stats - MCAT? Science GPA? Experience?
What do you find most challenging as a non-trad student?
What do you find is your biggest challenge as a non-trad student?
Have you secured a residency? What it difficult to do so given your age? Are the hours tougher on you than your younger counterparts?
Anything else you wish to share?

About me:
42 years old. Will be 44 when I apply. B.A. Philosophy Summa Cum Laude. Science pacing to be about 3.5. Have not taken MCAT. No medical experience. Extensive non profit experience. Also am a yoga instructor and yoga teacher trainer. Kids are raised. Husbands makes good money so finances will not be an issue.

I want to get in medicine to serve the underprivileged and help people. Yes, I want to make a living, but I am more interested in serving than I am in money/prestige.

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Best of luck to you. I have a similar background. I have a B.A. in Philosophy, magna cum laude. I have experience as a Clinician at a behavioral health urgent care center. I'm 41 and will, hopefully, be applying next year.

I'm still not sure to whether to pursue the D.O./M.D. route or go P.A. I'll be 50 by the time I finish residency and mid-fifities by the time I pay off the loans if I live as frugaly as I do now. Ten years of reaping the rewards of ten years hard work just doesn't make sense to me. I'm not pursuing it purely for finanicial reasons, but at my age it is certainly a consideration. The P.A. route doesn't have the same allure, but seems more prudent.
 
Husbands makes good money so finances will not be an issue.

I am guessing that's a typo or do you practice polygamy? ;)

I am a little outside your age range. I was 38 when I applied in my first app cycle. I am now 39 and I will be celebrating my 40th BDay just a few weeks into my first semester of med school this fall. :)

My stats as well as both my app cycles are on MDApps. I could get no love from MD programs but was accepted by the first DO program I applied to.

I had lots of research experience and clinical contact from being a caregiver for my mother and working in psych. I think my biggest challenge (so far!) was the MCAT. It had been 6+ years since I had taken the science classes when I sat for the MCAT. I had to relearn everything on my own.

Best of luck, mafunk. :luck:
 
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I'll be 40 this April and I start at Tulane School of Medicine in August. Long crazy road and I'm doing this at exactly the right time in my life. Literally couldn't be happier or more excited.

Best of luck to you and all the other 40+ers!
 
......
My stats as well as both my app cycles are on MDApps. I could get no love from MD programs but was accepted by the first DO program I applied to.


Hi FuturePitt. Big congrats on the acceptance! Can you help me find the MDApps thread?
 
Right under my flying saucer avatar just click on this:

MDApps: Profile 20614

and it will take you to my MDapps page. :)

Oh, I didn't even notice that before. :p Thanks, FuturePitt.

It appears to not be part of the SDN forum, which leads me to my question...is there a thread where accepted applicants post their stats (like we have over in the pre-vet forum)?

Everything seems so secretive over here in the allo forum. People don't even want to reveal which school they attend. Makes no sense to me. We are all so open about everything over in pre-vet, so we can help each other.
 
Oh, I didn't even notice that before. :p Thanks, FuturePitt.

It appears to not be part of the SDN forum, which leads me to my question...is there a thread where accepted applicants post their stats (like we have over in the pre-vet forum)?

Everything seems so secretive over here in the allo forum. People don't even want to reveal which school they attend. Makes no sense to me. We are all so open about everything over in pre-vet, so we can help each other.

Go to the top line page of MdApps.com and it will get you everything that you want.
 
Thanks for sharing guys. I just found this forum and am incredible thankful for it.

I wish you all well and hope to see you around this cyber place as things progress for all of us.
 
Hi,
I am 44yo. I applied this year.
MCAT 39 (BS-15, PS-14, VR-10)
English is not my first language.
GPA 3.7
Pre-med classes(2007-2010) 4.0
First Education: MS in Physics
Working in Financial IT
Med Experience 4 years ambulance(EMS) volunteer
etc

I send my application to 12 medical schools, 4 rejected me from the start. The rest are still under review. However, the interview season is almost over, I have not been invited. As I'll get all my rejection letters I will publish the detail report about my attempt here.
Believe it or not, my application stats is very strong, not many people can beat it. Try if you can, otherwise do not waste your time. It seems medical schools are strongly age discriminating. They just do not talk about that.

Good luck.



Are you a medical student or aspiring medical student who applied to med school after the age of 40? If so, can you please share your experience with me. I'm applyint to D.O. school btw.

How old were you when you applied? Enrolled?
How many schools did you apply to and how many accepted you?
What were your stats - MCAT? Science GPA? Experience?
What do you find most challenging as a non-trad student?
What do you find is your biggest challenge as a non-trad student?
Have you secured a residency? What it difficult to do so given your age? Are the hours tougher on you than your younger counterparts?
Anything else you wish to share?

About me:
42 years old. Will be 44 when I apply. B.A. Philosophy Summa Cum Laude. Science pacing to be about 3.5. Have not taken MCAT. No medical experience. Extensive non profit experience. Also am a yoga instructor and yoga teacher trainer. Kids are raised. Husbands makes good money so finances will not be an issue.

I want to get in medicine to serve the underprivileged and help people. Yes, I want to make a living, but I am more interested in serving than I am in money/prestige.
 
It seems medical schools are strongly age discriminating. They just do not talk about that.
See the previous 1000 discussions about this. You can blame age discrimination all you want, but that's a smokescreen. There are plenty of 21 year olds with insanely high stats and perfect ECs who don't get accepted either. Age discrimination my fanny. Rejectable candidates come in all ages.

Things you can do:
1. Hire a consultant who will root out any red flags in your app.
2. Talk to the people who wrote your LORs and get them to tell you whether they mentioned any concerns in their letters.
3. Get multiple mature professionals to review your essays and do videotaped mock interviews. Take their feedback seriously.
4. Apply to WAY more than 12 schools, on the day the app opens.

Best of luck to you.
 
See the previous 1000 discussions about this.
I don't buy it. Sorry. And the main reason is that I am partially agree that age discrimination in medicine make some sense. People of older age has to be an exception in medicine for the sake of their patients. To bad I wasn't that exceptional or admission boards were too arrogant for it.
Good luck to you too.
 
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I don't buy it. Sorry. And the main reason is that I am partially agree that age discrimination in medicine make some sense. People of older age has to be an exception in medicine for the sake of their patients. To bad I wasn't that exceptional or admission boards were too arrogant for it.
Good luck to you too.
I am sorry to push on this, but the only reason you list for your rejection is your age. What else could it be? If you are not willing to consider other reasons for not getting in, then the arrogance is not on the part of the adcom.
 
I am sorry to push on this, but the only reason you list for your rejection is your age. What else could it be? If you are not willing to consider other reasons for not getting in, then the arrogance is not on the part of the adcom.

Don't be sorry, push it :). But be realistic. There is no ideal candidate. Everybody have some dirt, and that usually used as a polite justification for the decision to avoid any legal complications. To ignore reality and real reasons, you are suggesting to others waste their time and efforts. It is not a good advise. Also, there is a whole industry making money on that "How to get into med school." Don't make others to be trapped in that scheme.
To be simple, In emergency, I personally prefer young and healthy partner, because stretchers are freaking heavy. Is that reason simple enough?
 
Don't be sorry, push it :). But be realistic. There is no ideal candidate. Everybody have some dirt, and that usually used as a polite justification for the decision to avoid any legal complications. To ignore reality and real reasons, you are suggesting to others waste their time and efforts. It is not a good advise.
I'm 44 too. I'm not wasting my time. There are a bunch of over-40 medical students who frequent SDN. I have met over-40 medical students outside SDN. Therefore age discrimination is surmountable. Or I wouldn't be going for this.
Also, there is a whole industry making money on that "How to get into med school." Don't make others to be trapped in that scheme.
The no-charge SDN "how to get into med school" plan isn't a scheme looking to trap you. Again, lots of over-40 med students here looking to help out. Are you saying that you feel the SDN community duped you into thinking you could get in over 40?
To be simple, In emergency, I personally prefer young and healthy partner, because stretchers are freaking heavy. Is that reason simple enough?
One thing that the over-40 med students I know have in common is youthfulness. Lots of athletes. Not a lot of obese smokers suffering from depression. If I go into the lecture hall on Monday at EVMS and yell "hey somebody help me with this" the over-40 med students would get off their asses first. I think that this youthfulness comes across in interviews and makes a great impression.

And for sure, if I were not physically and mentally robust, and not fairly ridiculously energetic, and not rather like a frisbee dog when things need to get done, and if my mom was retired at 76 instead of working full time, I would not be trying to be a doctor.

What I'm concerned about here, and why I'm dragging this out, is resentment and regret. I don't want to be 48 and bitter, angry that I tried to get into med school when those bastards were never going to let me in. If, like me, you've had a large cohort of peers and mentors encourage you to pursue medical school, and if, like me, you really badly want to be a doctor, then figure out what you need to do to get in, and do it. Right?
 
It seems medical schools are strongly age discriminating.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. It took me two rounds of applications, but I got into my first choice school (Tulane) and will be starting this Fall. I'll be 40 in April. Some schools may be more "pro" non-trad than others, but I think the generalization that they are "strongly age discriminating" is false.

I wish you luck and success.
 
Not 40 yet - applied to DO schools late and am 35. Graduated from Marquette School of Dentistry in 2002 - never really enjoyed dentistry like I should. If all goes well I should be finished by early 40's. Kind of scary making this decision, but we shall see. I also took the MCAT after being out of undergrad for 15 years - so that was a challenge. Scores coming soon.
 
I don't buy it. Sorry. And the main reason is that I am partially agree that age discrimination in medicine make some sense. People of older age has to be an exception in medicine for the sake of their patients. To bad I wasn't that exceptional or admission boards were too arrogant for it.
Good luck to you too.

Nonsense. I'm 48 and I got plenty of invites. Age discrimination exists (of course, every kind of discrimination exists in some measure) but it is an insufficient reason for this many silent rejections. Something is or somethings are wrong with your application. Discover them and change them.

Alternately, you could just moan and complain and never get in.
 
One thing that the over-40 med students I know have in common is youthfulness. Lots of athletes. Not a lot of obese smokers suffering from depression. If I go into the lecture hall on Monday at EVMS and yell "hey somebody help me with this" the over-40 med students would get off their asses first. I think that this youthfulness comes across in interviews and makes a great impression.

I completely agree with this. We have a few 'older' folks in my class, and in the class behind me. They are in their early to mid 40s, with teenage to early 20s kids of their own. These 'older' med students are definitely very active and lively compared to others of their age. They have no problem getting together in study groups with their 20-something classmates or interacting with them. So being fairly high-energy for your age group would be important. Medical school and residency can be very draining at times, so you'll definitely need a lot of energy to get through this.

Another issue that often isn't mentioned is that it helps for 'older' students to be mentally 'young' as well. What I mean by this, is that you shouldn't be so far removed from issues affecting younger people. Even if you want to go into geriatrics someday, you will still be in awkward situations in your school clinical experiences or residency where you will have to ask a 15 year old female patient about her sexual practices, alcohol, drugs, etc. If, as a middle aged person, you feel morally repulsed by having to deal with such situations, that would be a problem.

Several months back, I had an unfortunate situation like this with one of my own classmates, who happened to be in the 'over-40' year old group as well. We had to do prostate/penile exams that day for the first time, and I admit that I was pretty nervous (as a younger woman with very limited personal 'experience' with men due to my cultural values). I knew that the prostate could be an erogenous zone for men, and I was terrified that if I poked and pushed around the wrong way that I might unintentionally have an arousing effect on my male patient. That really scared me. So right before we started our clinical exams I confided my fears in front of my 'over-40' classmate. She looked at me like I was some kind of sick pervert for asking the question, and gave me a look of disgust. I was deeply hurt by that, as my question was not meant to be perverse at all, as I felt I should be able to trust my classmates enough to ask them sensitive educational questions without them getting offended or repulsed. Fortunately I found a male classmate (who is a wonderful, brilliant, and easy-to-talk-to person) who was able to calm my anxieties and assure me not to stress over the clinical experience, as it would be perfectly fine (and it was).

In summary, I really think some of the 'over-40' crowd can be excellent physicians, as you have a wealth of life experience behind you, and you often have better work ethic that many of the younger folk (who might still be into the drinking-partying scene). However, before you decide to take on medical school, make sure you have the physical energy to take on the formidable task ahead, and make sure you have the personal comfort and openness to interact with younger-aged people than yourself.
 
Several months back, I had an unfortunate situation like this with one of my own classmates, who happened to be in the 'over-40' year old group as well. We had to do prostate/penile exams that day for the first time, and I admit that I was pretty nervous (as a younger woman with very limited personal 'experience' with men due to my cultural values). I knew that the prostate could be an erogenous zone for men, and I was terrified that if I poked and pushed around the wrong way that I might unintentionally have an arousing effect on my male patient.).

Ok, this is one of the funniest things that I have ever read. Any man who gets aroused during a prostate exam has earned his arousal and should be left to his own interior musings. A female doctor could certainly not be blamed for causing the issue.

As for the other 99.999999% percent of men. They won't think of a prostate exam as a sexual experience.
 
So right before we started our clinical exams I confided my fears in front of my 'over-40' classmate. She looked at me like I was some kind of sick pervert for asking the question, and gave me a look of disgust. I was deeply hurt by that, as my question was not meant to be perverse at all, as I felt I should be able to trust my classmates enough to ask them sensitive educational questions without them getting offended or repulsed.
I don't think that's about age - it's garden variety repression. There's an all-ages category that never gets over being brainwashed as children that all things sexual are shameful. Men tend to get over it because they think about sex every 7 seconds (actual fact).

Also this woman obviously didn't watch ER, so she's a weirdo. Maria Bello's character raised some timber on a testicular exam, around 1998.
 
I don't think that's about age - it's garden variety repression. There's an all-ages category that never gets over being brainwashed as children that all things sexual are shameful. Men tend to get over it because they think about sex every 7 seconds (actual fact).

THIS ISN'T TRU.... whoops, it took more than 6 seconds to type that.
 
THIS ISN'T TRU.... whoops, it took more than 6 seconds to type that.

Heh. You have a good sense of humor about so-called 'awkward' topics. I think you'll blend in with your younger classmates just fine. :D Best wishes to you. :)
 
This topic comes up frequently in both online forums and at conferences that I attend and present at. I did some number crunching previously posted on OldPreMeds.org (Link to Realities of Ageism)

Calculating from the 2010 AAMC data there were approximately 180 people age 38 or older who MATRICULATED to allopathic medical schools. This represents the age group in 99th percentile of applicants or oldest 1% I reached this conclusion by extrapolating back from the actual 2010 AAMC numbers:

42,742 total applicants
31,834 first time applicants
19,641 acceptees
18,665 matriculants

186 = 1% of total matriculants. This would roughly suggest about 427 applicants over 38 years of age. However, the percentile tables indicate the average age of 99th percentile of applicants split into two distinct groups. The average age of applicants in 99th percentile who applied but who did not matriculate was 40 while the average age for those who did matriculate was 33 for women and 35 for men. Noting that average age for both groups was 38, suggests that there were some significantly older individuals providing outlying data points, particularly for women.

While your question relates to 40 year old, statistically using the 95th percentile, giving us 5% of the total population typically presents a more stable view. While this is for the 30 year old and above group it does allow us to compare this the Osteopathic medical school applicant/matriculant pool (here I am using 2009 data). In latter approximately 6% of applicants were 31 years old and above and 5% of matriculants were 31 years old and above. My point with all this dry data is that for both groups about 5% of the applicants were over 30 and about 5% of the matriculants were over 30. This gross data analysis does not indicate a strong bias against age.

My perception is that much smaller applicant pool of older students, the likely higher percentage of this older applicant pool having poorer academic overall records (usually from their original undergraduate work), and the difficulty in re-preparation for older students with family and employment obligations makes this a higher reach for older students.

Um, thanks for the data?
 
sorry if my dry data was not typical for this forum. It seems that if I provide some finding without going thru the logic and the data, students start to scream and flame. Less so for the nontrads.

My point with all this dry data is that for about 5% of the applicants were over 30 and about 5% of the matriculants were over 30. This gross data analysis does not indicate a strong bias against age.

The data is very typical for this forum and very appropriate. Someone was just smarting off to someone way smarter than them.
 
sorry if my dry data was not typical for this forum. It seems that if I provide some finding without going thru the logic and the data, students start to scream and flame. Less so for the nontrads.

My point with all this dry data is that for about 5% of the applicants were over 30 and about 5% of the matriculants were over 30. This gross data analysis does not indicate a strong bias against age.

I totally took your meaning. It was late when I posted and I forgot to use a smilie or something to indicate the tone of my post. (I was a software engineer at Cisco Systems for about a decade and "dry data" used to be my life.) I appreciate the time it took you to reply and parse all that. Apologies if I sounded dense or snarky.
 
The data is very typical for this forum and very appropriate. Someone was just smarting off to someone way smarter than them.

That was fairly mean-spirited. Given your other posts I've read I'm surprised.
 
This gross data analysis does not indicate a strong bias against age.

And PS - thanks for supporting my point. Kentavr is simply wrong in my experience and opinion.
 
I'm 44 too. I'm not wasting my time.
You wrote a nice and inspirational post for people of our age. I am pretty much want to be on your side, but unfortunately I cannot.

The question of age discrimination has a medical aspect. And I would assume that is how it is engraved in the brains of Adcoms:

1.
One thing that the over-40 med students I know have in common is youthfulness. Lots of athletes. <...> I think that this youthfulness comes across in interviews and makes a great impression.
What is matter is not look and feel, but survival curve. How many students dropped dead during med school years, internships, residenture and more importantly the average years of service after residentship correlated with the age of admission. Analytical tools to create this curve are common for clinical trials and I bet every med school has this. I don't have raw data and if I will figured out what I can use for proxy, I will publish it. However, I have a feeling that it will not support your statements.

2. You may ignore aging process of the human body, but unfortunately it is what it is. There are a tons of literature written, how it affects the body, and it starts not from youthfulness look. Simple self observations will show haw it affects you personally. In my case, I see the deterioration at sensory/perception system, memory(CNS) and expect dexterity will be next: I need a small lens for precise work in electronics now, I see the degradation of sensitivity for some sound frequencies, my perfect memory now requires some mnemonic devices as flashcards. All that makes me less suitable for some particular jobs. I understand this, Admissions boards too. Should they ignore that?

What I'm concerned about here, and why I'm dragging this out, is resentment and regret.
About four years ago I was reading exactly the same forum and exactly the same question was under discussion. Most of the posters were saying exactly the same things as today. And even the ratio of pro and contra was approximately the same. I concluded then, that there is no age problem in admission process. Now, four years later I earned the right to say that I was wrong. I can see how new people can take your side and follow this assumption. More then that this type of the discussion will not change anybody's mind and stop them from applying. However, my position is much less dreamily and shows whom we are dealing with.

I don't want to be 48 and bitter, angry that I tried to get into med school when those bastards were never going to let me in. If, like me, you've had a large cohort of peers and mentors encourage you to pursue medical school, and if, like me, you really badly want to be a doctor, then figure out what you need to do to get in, and do it. Right?
Wrong. Nice, but misleading. If you assume for a couple of minutes that the statement of age discrimination has some plausibility then you will conclude that it will not stopped with admission. It will pressure you during internship
, residenture and the rest. I don't want to be " a doctor", I want to be a particular doctor in a particular area with a particular contributions to a medicine. In order to get there I have to have a cooperation of the system, which I am clearly do not have. Not that I cannot swim against the steam, I will simply will run out of time fighting it. So, you forget to mention the worst case scenario: Being 52 in medicine, but being as far from your original objective as of now. The real question is, would you start a battle which you will not only lose, but also will not be allowed to participate in? In some cases the answer is yes, but in most cases it is no.

Good luck,
 
Don't be sorry, push it :). But be realistic. There is no ideal candidate. Everybody have some dirt, and that usually used as a polite justification for the decision to avoid any legal complications. To ignore reality and real reasons, you are suggesting to others waste their time and efforts. It is not a good advise. Also, there is a whole industry making money on that "How to get into med school." Don't make others to be trapped in that scheme.
To be simple, In emergency, I personally prefer young and healthy partner, because stretchers are freaking heavy. Is that reason simple enough?

I think there's a lot of important information that we're not getting here regarding your application. How early did you apply, and what schools did you apply to? Did you apply only to the most selective schools like Hopkins, Harvard, Stanford, or UNC as a non-resident, etc.? Thinking that you are entitled to a successful application cycle because of your stats is arrogant, and it leads me to believe that your application is tainted with a sense of arrogance as well.

There are plenty of "older" applicants that have been successful on this board with lesser stats than what you possess. You could be realistic, as you say, and introspectively examine what else might be going on here, or you could continue to feel sorry for yourself.

Regardless, it is likely true that some admissions representatives are not in favor of bringing in older students, but I don't believe that those sentiments represent the majority, and this has certainly not been the case in my experience.
 
This topic comes up frequently in both online forums and at conferences that I attend and present at. I did some number crunching previously posted on OldPreMeds.org (Link to Realities of Ageism)

Calculating from the 2010 AAMC data there were approximately 180 people age 38 or older who MATRICULATED to allopathic medical schools. This represents the age group in 99th percentile of applicants or oldest 1% I reached this conclusion by extrapolating back from the actual 2010 AAMC numbers:

42,742 total applicants
31,834 first time applicants
19,641 acceptees
18,665 matriculants

186 = 1% of total matriculants. This would roughly suggest about 427 applicants over 38 years of age. However, the percentile tables indicate the average age of 99th percentile of applicants split into two distinct groups. The average age of applicants in 99th percentile who applied but who did not matriculate was 40 while the average age for those who did matriculate was 33 for women and 35 for men. Noting that average age for both groups was 38, suggests that there were some significantly older individuals providing outlying data points, particularly for women.

While your question relates to 40 year old, statistically using the 95th percentile, giving us 5% of the total population typically presents a more stable view. While this is for the 30 year old and above group it does allow us to compare this the Osteopathic medical school applicant/matriculant pool (here I am using 2009 data). In latter approximately 6% of applicants were 31 years old and above and 5% of matriculants were 31 years old and above. My point with all this dry data is that for both groups about 5% of the applicants were over 30 and about 5% of the matriculants were over 30. This gross data analysis does not indicate a strong bias against age.

My perception is that much smaller applicant pool of older students, the likely higher percentage of this older applicant pool having poorer academic overall records (usually from their original undergraduate work), and the difficulty in re-preparation for older students with family and employment obligations makes this a higher reach for older students.

Nicely done. However the average and percentiles are extracted from the total population of med schools. My problem is that I did not choose schools randomly. I choose them in particular claster having the research in the area of my interest. I would assume that the policy of age discrimination is also clustered and will not be observed when you are doing the total average. I will be much obliged if you can show the same analytics but splitted between individual schools or groups. Thanks.
 
That was fairly mean-spirited. Given your other posts I've read I'm surprised.

Sorry, I'd read that quote and was looking for an opportunity to use it. A teacher made a student write "I will not smart-off to a way smarter teacher" 100 times. I was going for cute rather than mean. I guess we both learned to not post while sleepy.
 
Nicely done. However the averaging and percentiles you are extraction are done from the whole population of med school. My problem is that I did not choose schools randomly. I choose them in particular claster having the research in the area of my interest. I would assume that the policy of age discrimination is also clustered and will not be observed when you are doing the total average. I will be much obliged if you can show the same analytics but splitted between individual schools or groups. Thanks.


I get what you did. You thought that your stats qualified you for the top tier of schools and only applied there. I hate to break it to you, but lots and lots of people with high stats apply to Hopkins and Harvard, but few of them get interviews. GPA and MCAT alone do not an application make. In order to get interviews at selective schools you also have to set-apart things, like peer-reviewed publications, or stand-out volunteer activities, and incredible letters of reference are de rigeur. You might have had none of these, in which case you didn't experience any age-discrimination at all.
 
I get what you did. You thought that your stats qualified you for the top tier of schools and only applied there. I hate to break it to you, but lots and lots of people with high stats apply to Hopkins and Harvard, but few of them get interviews. GPA and MCAT alone do not an application make. In order to get interviews at selective schools you also have to set-apart things, like peer-reviewed publications, or stand-out volunteer activities, and incredible letters of reference are de rigeur. You might have had none of these, in which case you didn't experience any age-discrimination at all.

If I have all of that, will you agree with my point? or you just talking? And BTW, your reconstruction of my application strategy is not correct.
 
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Sorry, I'd read that quote and was looking for an opportunity to use it. A teacher made a student write "I will not smart-off to a way smarter teacher" 100 times. I was going for cute rather than mean. I guess we both learned to not post while sleepy.

Fair enough. Thanks for saying so. Have a great weekend!
 
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the policy of age discrimination
How do you know they're discriminating against your age and not something else? Maybe they're anti-immigrant. Or maybe they're anti-old-immigrant. Anti-old-male-immigrant. Did you list a religion? Anti-old-male-religious-immigrant. All illegal, but why pick just one?

Or maybe their opinion of you is similar to their opinion of 21 year olds with a very focused interest on a very particular aspect of medical practice. The stereotype would be that young Billy wants to be a neurosurgeon and has done extensive pre-med-school research into what that job entails...and has made sure to jump through the hoops...and then young Billy doesn't do so well in med school because med school requires a bunch of stuff that doesn't have anything to do with neurosurg. Or maybe young Billy doesn't get strong enough scores to match neurosurg and doesn't practice medicine at all. Maybe that's the stereotype adcoms have in mind, vs. ageism.
 
Kent, I have to agree with the others that there is more to the story that you're not telling us here. I've spent four years as a student adcom, and while we don't get very many age 40+ applicants, we'd definitely be interested in one with your stats! The fact that you were able to pull off that kind of MCAT (including a 10 VR), even though it's immediately obvious you're not a native speaker just by reading your posts, makes your accomplishment even more impressive.

So, assuming your ECs are also great, my guesses are one of the following: 1) your PS didn't explain "why medicine" convincingly enough; 2) your LORs aren't as good as you thought they were; 3) you applied to the wrong selection of schools, especially if you were complete late; or 4) you were applying MD/PhD. (You mentioned wanting to attend a school with research in your area.) MD/PhD is a whole 'nother animal with a much longer overall training time. So if you did try to go that route, I agree with you that your age could have been a major issue.

However, people in their 40s do regularly get into medical school, graduate, get through residency, and practice. It's true that their specialty choices may be somewhat limited because of training length in some fields--you won't find too many people in their 50s training to be a neurosurgeon or an interventional cardiologist. Most of the oldest medical students tend to go into more primary-care oriented fields like IM, peds, EM, or maybe psych for that reason.

I've also never heard of any adcom thinking about how likely you are to "drop dead" during medical school or residency. Considering that the average life expectancy in this country is currently around 78, no one would predict that 44-year-olds are likely to die in large numbers during the subsequent decade while they're training! I can tell you that this thought has never entered into my mind, and it's never come up during a discussion of an older applicant during a meeting, either.

Is there any age discrimination at all in med school admissions? Probably some. Adcoms are human, and we all have our own biases. But your credentials are so superior that you, my friend, should be the kind of success story that lights up adcoms' eyes and inspires every other applicant over 40 who hears about you. If you're planning to apply again, I suggest that you contact some of the schools that rejected you and ask for feedback about what they felt was weak about your app.

Best of luck to you. :)
 
I think there's a lot of important information that we're not getting here regarding your application. How early did you apply, and what schools did you apply to?
Kent, I have to agree with the others that there is more to the story that you're not telling us here.
You are right. I am not given you all the facts and details in order to make a solid conclusion. I mentioned in my first post that I will not make public any specific details till I'll get all rejection letters. Let's call it benefit of the doubt.
The puzzle is not yet complete.

Thinking that you are entitled to a successful application cycle because of your stats is arrogant, and it leads me to believe that your application is tainted with a sense of arrogance as well.
You are right again. I am arrogant, However I don't see it that bad and in any way as a disqualification factor. I practice compassion with people who need it, but in this forum we all adults and I hope most of us are mentally stable to withstand some heat.

You could be realistic, as you say, and introspectively examine what else might be going on here, or you could continue to feel sorry for yourself.
Here you are wrong. I am not feel sorry for myself as some of my opponents assumed. May be I made differently, but no sorry, no depressions and no moan at all. Please, do not project your introspections. I feel angry, not sorry. I will not pretend that it is not a huge loss for me. It crashed my carefully lined up plans, nullified significant time and money investments and closed up the opportunities to do something good. But 15 years of finance trained me to cut my losses short. I will write off medicine as a loss by the end of this admission cycle. I will not have an opportunity to apply for the second time. However, due to my extreme arrogance, I also think that this loss is not only mine. The medicine lost something too. But as in Hitchhiker's Guide said "So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish".
 
.....I will write off medicine as a loss by the end of this admission cycle.

With your stats I find it hard to believe you'd write things off after one cycle (or have you applied more than once?). Almost every single person I know that's in med school took 2 attempts (or more) to get in. My stats weren't very good and it took me two rounds. In the end though the timing is much better now than had I gotten in on my first attempt.

Regardless, best of luck with the remainder of the season.
 

Wow, You simultaneously confirmed my impression (which produced all this discussions) and solved a puzzle. I will still withhold some details but #4 plays some role in this game. By my calculations, even with very high competition there I should beat the odds, except if there is a killer factor: such as age or language.

Regarding drop dead people :) Do not take it literally, I was talking about the average years of service after residency (it should be known to adcoms and be a consideration)...

Best of luck
 
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Fully a quarter of all allopathic applications are people on their second a attempt or more. I do have stats on their success rate

I definitely believe that.
 
Belief? I got the numbers from 2010

42,742 total applicants

31,834 first time applicants
10,908 reapplicants (which 25.5% of the total)

19,641 acceptees
18,665 matriculants

Very interesting. Thanks.
 
You are right. I am not given you all the facts and details in order to make a solid conclusion. I mentioned in my first post that I will not make public any specific details till I'll get all rejection letters. Let's call it benefit of the doubt.
The puzzle is not yet complete.


You are right again. I am arrogant, However I don't see it that bad and in any way as a disqualification factor. I practice compassion with people who need it, but in this forum we all adults and I hope most of us are mentally stable to withstand some heat.


Here you are wrong. I am not feel sorry for myself as some of my opponents assumed. May be I made differently, but no sorry, no depressions and no moan at all. Please, do not project your introspections. I feel angry, not sorry. I will not pretend that it is not a huge loss for me. It crashed my carefully lined up plans, nullified significant time and money investments and closed up the opportunities to do something good. But 15 years of finance trained me to cut my losses short. I will write off medicine as a loss by the end of this admission cycle. I will not have an opportunity to apply for the second time. However, due to my extreme arrogance, I also think that this loss is not only mine. The medicine lost something too. But as in Hitchhiker's Guide said "So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish".

I'll just assume that you did apply to only the most selective schools, and that in itself is laughable - even with your stats. Your carefully lined up plans were not carefully lined up at all. And even if you don't see it as a disqualifier - I'm willing to bet that anyone who looked at your application certainly did. You should be angry at yourself - not the admissions committees. :laugh:
 
Wow, You simultaneously confirmed my impression (which produced all this discussions) and solved a puzzle. I will still withhold some details but #4 plays some role in this game. By my calculations, even with very high competition there I should beat the odds, except if there is a killer factor: such as age or language.

Regarding drop dead people :) Do not take it literally, I was talking about the average years of service after residency (it should be known to adcoms and be a consideration)...

Best of luck

Since you applied MD/PhD, your stats aren't that amazing. If you're personal statement hints at your arrogance, then I understand the rejections.
 
I'll just assume that you did apply to only the most selective schools, and that in itself is laughable :laugh:

It is good that you can understand the assumptions you are making during your conclusions. Since it makes easy to tell what is wrong. Your first assumption is wrong. The spectrum of schools I applied was in range from highest rank to lowest rank. Almost equally distributed. Who is arrogant now?
 
It is good that you can understand the assumptions you are making during your conclusions. Since it makes easy to tell what is wrong. Your first assumption is wrong. The spectrum of schools I applied was in range from highest rank to lowest rank. Almost equally distributed. Who is arrogant now?

Sorry if this has already been covered, but did you target and/or apply to schools that seem to have a good track record for accepting non-trads? I know my school seems to really love non-traditional students and several others on my application list seem to as well.
 
Since you applied MD/PhD, your stats aren't that amazing. If you're personal statement hints at your arrogance, then I understand the rejections.
It isn't about his/her stats; those stats are still comfortably above average even for MD/PhD applicants. However, you have to understand that the purpose of MD/PhD programs is to develop independent PIs. That's why they exist. And MD/PhD programs are a very long haul. Sure, you're going to school for eight years (on average) if you do an MD/PhD, and sure, that's already twice as long as a straight-MD/DO medical student. But the additional time doesn't stop there.

MD/PhDs typically do residency in path (four years), IM (three years) or peds (three years). Psych and neuro (both four years) are other fairly common choices. However, most MD/PhDs do not stop with just a residency. Either they will do a fellowship + post doc after a regular residency, or they will do a so-called "fast track" research residency + fellowship. In spite of the name, a fast track residency actually takes longer than a regular residency because it includes additional protected time for research. In IM subspecialties (where fast-tracking is most common), the fast track residency is 6-7 years long: two years of general IM + 1-2 years of fellowship + 3 years of protected research time. An MD/PhD who does not fast track will likely require an additional year on top of that, since they'd still need to complete the entire IM residency.

OK, so now, after 15+ years of training, our MD/PhD is ready to be an independent PI, right? Wrong. It generally takes several years after completion of training for new faculty to work their way up to that level where they can obtain an independent R01 grant and run their own lab. The average age for a new PI to receive their first R01 is early 40s, and it has been increasing over time.

Thus, from start to finish (first year of medical school to receiving one's first R01) is a time span of around two decades. This is three times longer than the time it will take to develop an independently practicing clinician like you're going to be, coming out of a straight-MD/DO program. So now it is probably a little clearer why an MD/PhD program would not want to enroll a student in their mid-40s, regardless of how good their stats are. Put simply, it's not a good use of our tax dollars to train someone who will likely never be able to independently run a lab.

whouse said:
Sorry if this has already been covered, but did you target and/or apply to schools that seem to have a good track record for accepting non-trads? I know my school seems to really love non-traditional students and several others on my application list seem to as well.
This is a common misconception, that some schools like nontrads and others don't. While it's true that some schools do probably go more out of their way to recruit nontrads, all medical schools have at least some nontrads, and all medical schools will take nontrads who fit with their mission, and who have the qualifications. The biggest reason why nontrads tend to be less successful when applying to the high-power academic schools with young classes is because on average, our stats are lower. Even those of us who do get into these schools are less likely to attend them because of the social environment. In other words, like all minorities, we self-select to schools where we see a bunch of other folks just like us. That was definitely the case for me.

Nontrads should follow the same application strategies as trads do. First, you make your app as strong as you possibly can. Do well in your postbac. Study for the MCAT and try to do as well as you can. Get clinical experience. Get the right LORs. Write a good, grammatically correct PS that explains why you want to change careers. Choose schools wisely and apply early. There is no secret on how to maximize your odds of getting into medical school; anyone who has been reading SDN for a while knows all of these things I've just mentioned already.
 
....This is a common misconception....

Wish I had a nickel for all the misconceptions regarding med school applications. I'm just glad to never have to go through it again.
 
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