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Gametime

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That's the kinds of GPA one gets after collecting a series of Ws and Fs.
Not easy on the eyes, I tell you.

Some background info:

After high school (3.5 GPA, 1360 SAT I), enrolled in the local community college, proceeded to bomb spectacularly. Thinking I could start over with a 'clean slate'(little did I know), I went to another community college an hour away, bombed spectacularly, again. Now, I could go on and on about the factors, circumstances, and allat good stuff, but it would be irrelevant. At the end of the day, all that matters is what you've done. I'll save all the 'hardships overcome' stories for my kids. Currently, thanks to my strong high school record, I got accepted into a university in another state, start this fall. I haven't reported any prior college attendance, which makes me a freshman 3rd time over. I'm not looking for shortcuts. And I'm willing to do 'my time'. I'm not, however, willing to let bureucratic red-tape wreck my application.

Motivation? Done & Done. Its gametime and I'm finna to play. Aptitude & Ability? I know I can hack it, it being undergrad and the application process. Research ? Looked into all my options, tentatively ruling out foreign medical schools and post-bac/SMP. Tentatively.

But I'm hitting a roadblock good SDNers.

AMCAS in its glorious wisdom has decreed that all grades from all college-level classes will be calculated towards the final GPA medical schools receive. Which means even if I go on a string of unbroken A's from here to post-bac and back, I'll still end up with something like a 1.99 GPA, thanks to those 4 character-building semesters. If, that is, I report it.

The question: How do I fix/amend/rectify/surgically amputate that beauty of a GPA so that I still have a chance, reasonable enough chance, to compete for a US medical school spot?

I'm 23, if it matters. Thanking SDNers and the non-trad section, your posts/resources were invaluable in conducting my research.
 

Gametime

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^^ Tentatively ruling it out. Nothing against it, per se. Friends of friends study there and I hear it's great. They come back and match pretty well. For many reasons tho, I'm aiming for a US medical school spot. Carribbean, as well as other FMGs, would be a secondary option.

I think the main barrier here is: Does AMCAS have a way of finding out what grades you got in community college ?

Here's my scenario: Currently at XYZ 4 year state school(pretty good ranking nationwide), ace/aim for 3.5+ GPA, 32+ MCAT...and apply. Don't report CC attendance.

Feasible ?
 
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oldpro

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That's the kinds of GPA one gets after collecting a series of Ws and Fs.
Not easy on the eyes, I tell you.

Some background info:

After high school (3.5 GPA, 1360 SAT I), enrolled in the local community college, proceeded to bomb spectacularly. Thinking I could start over with a 'clean slate'(little did I know), I went to another community college an hour away, bombed spectacularly, again. Now, I could go on and on about the factors, circumstances, and allat good stuff, but it would be irrelevant. At the end of the day, all that matters is what you've done. I'll save all the 'hardships overcome' stories for my kids. Currently, thanks to my strong high school record, I got accepted into a university in another state, start this fall. I haven't reported any prior college attendance, which makes me a freshman 3rd time over. I'm not looking for shortcuts. And I'm willing to do 'my time'. I'm not, however, willing to let bureucratic red-tape wreck my application.

Motivation? Done & Done. Its gametime and I'm finna to play. Aptitude & Ability? I know I can hack it, it being undergrad and the application process. Research ? Looked into all my options, tentatively ruling out foreign medical schools and post-bac/SMP. Tentatively.

But I'm hitting a roadblock good SDNers.

AMCAS in its glorious wisdom has decreed that all grades from all college-level classes will be calculated towards the final GPA medical schools receive. Which means even if I go on a string of unbroken A's from here to post-bac and back, I'll still end up with something like a 1.99 GPA, thanks to those 4 character-building semesters. If, that is, I report it.

The question: How do I fix/amend/rectify/surgically amputate that beauty of a GPA so that I still have a chance, reasonable enough chance, to compete for a US medical school spot?

I'm 23, if it matters. Thanking SDNers and the non-trad section, your posts/resources were invaluable in conducting my research.


WELL..................23..............only community college and failed out.........

WHY did you fail?
Ruling out the Caribbean is very very unwise with this mess it may be the only hope.
You have years ahead of you before you prove to Medical schools you are acceptable failing out of a CC then another is really a bad thing since they are not seen as challenging as Universities.

Look there is wanting to go medical school and the ability to go to medical school it is a long road no matter who to get accepted into medschool

There are 6 year programs in the Caribbean (AM I really posting this?) in your case it may be an alternative since they take High school students but it's hard.

You have to decide if you really want to be a Doctor because without the focus and good study habits you will never succeed.

Good Luck.


PS If you really want to be a Doctor Bad then do not give up.

www.oldpremeds.org is where I would go.
 

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You should seriously consider applying to DO schools because they are more forgiving. When your AACOMAS GPA is calculated any grade from a retake of a class will replace your original grade. So if you retook a good number of those classes your GPA could jump pretty quickly.
 

oldpro

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You should seriously consider applying to DO schools because they are more forgiving. When your AACOMAS GPA is calculated any grade from a retake of a class will replace your original grade. So if you retook a good number of those classes your GPA could jump pretty quickly.


Yes DO is forgiving but they are becoming very competitive I'm not so sure this case is so easily explained either way it is years ahead for this person and thats something to consider, when I look at this I think 5 to 6 years away to prove they can do the work and even then the GPA may be a problem.:eek:
 

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oldpro, thanks for the input. I won't be discussing the circumstances of my flunking community college....twice. The circumstances/issues I was facing are no longer there, and thus, irrelevant. I think I have the academic ability as well as the discipline and focus required for med school/application process. Let's assume disciplene/ability is not an issue. Carribean, again, is something I'm only ruling out for now. Tentatively. Very much open to it if all else fails.

EElO8,

DO is something I've thought of as well. Only problem is, I might possibly decide to practice overseas. I don't want the DO degree to become an potential obstacle.
 

MSKalltheway

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Maybe I'm an eternal optimist, but I do think that anything can be overcome, so long as you can prove to medical schools that you are motivated and passionate about going into a career in medicine.

To be honest, I think that if you take these next years that you are in school and do very well and do well on your MCATs, you'll make a statement to schools. Remember, although your overall GPA may not be pretty, I think if you did >95% on your MCAT, got a 4.0 (or something near it) with your remaining classes and had some strong extra-curriculars and/or research experience, you'll be better off than you think. Med school admissions is not as hard-nosed and number based as everyone expects. I've seen and talked to people with 3.3's and 27's get tons of interviews and acceptances, while 3.8's and 33's have not done as well in the app. process as the previous situation I described.

I'm not saying that Harvard is a lock or necessarily feasible. I think realistically you still have a shot at MD/DO schools too, but thats IF you do very well with what's ahead and score well on your MCAT, among other things. You also will have to make sure you explain to schools the circumstances behind your previous performance (you don't have to explain on this forum, and do save it for your kids, but med schools do need to know as well, especially if you had great personal hardships, because they can be forgiving of that...we are all human).

I have classmates who are in their mid-late 30's...I don't think our admissions committee cared all that much about their college grades from >15 years prior. Yes, doing well is important, but dedication, drive and compassion for people are at a premium. No matter how stellar a student you are, if anyone lacks those medicine is not for you, and committees will think the same. Keep ALL options open at this point, DO/MD/Carib and elsewhere, because you still have some years left to see how things play out, I presume. Also, if you are still concerned about your past performance, consider graduate work as well (maybe even tracks leading up to MS/MPH/MBA degrees). The most important thing is to concentrate on doing well with what you have right now.
 

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^^
I think the main barrier here is: Does AMCAS have a way of finding out what grades you got in community college ?

Here's my scenario: Currently at XYZ 4 year state school(pretty good ranking nationwide), ace/aim for 3.5+ GPA, 32+ MCAT...and apply. Don't report CC attendance.

Feasible ?

Don't lie! Omitting this info = lying on your application. Even if you make it into med school, this will always be a time bomb just waiting to go off.
 

oldpro

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Oh yes I agree I think if you are dedicated and work hard, then good grades and time are your friends, I think one just has to answer "Do I really want this knowing it's an UPHill Battle? and it will be some time till I'm there" If the answer is yes then I do think its possible but also to explore all possibilities is a good thing and logical, too many want to dismiss options like the Caribbean based on misconceptions and hearsay, not a first choice of course but its viable.

SO I bring it up in certain circumstances.:luck:
 

oldpro

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Don't lie! Omitting this info = lying on your application. Even if you make it into med school, this will always be a time bomb just waiting to go off.
OMG yes this is the worst thing you can do if found out they dismiss you from Medschool it violates Honor and Docs should never lie.............................
 

MSKalltheway

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Which means even if I go on a string of unbroken A's from here to post-bac and back, I'll still end up with something like a 1.99 GPA, thanks to those 4 character-building semesters. If, that is, I report it.

And btw, from what I remember about applying, its just better to report any and all grades that you have when you do apply. I took a course outside my undergrad institution for a summer and had to report it. It's just a wiser thing to do because if they catch you fabricating anything or not giving them all your info, they can pull your apps...you can even have acceptances taken away because of it.

I'm not saying you would fabricate anything, but it is in your best interest to tell them about everything when you do apply. I remember that from the pesky fine print they put in all the applications...
 

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Now, I could go on and on about the factors, circumstances, and allat good stuff, but it would be irrelevant. At the end of the day, all that matters is what you've done. I'll save all the 'hardships overcome' stories for my kids.

I respect (and appreciate!) your decision not to disclose the details of your past here on SDN. Do know, though, that you *will* almost inevitably be called upon by an authority figure (letter writer, admissions committee, etc.) to explain at some point, and a "let bygones be bygones" answer might not fly. (I'm sure you know this already. :) )

I don't know how AMCAS determines whether or not you're actually reporting your complete attendance history, but since you sign multiple documents along the way in which you swear to the full and complete accuracy of the information provided, I wouldn't advise trying to hide anything lest you DO get found out and then have to answer for dishonesty on top of all else.

:luck:
 
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In terms of prior college attendance, schools have ways of finding out whether you want them to or onot. May take them a while, but eventually they do. Why take such chances on what kind of consequences you might face if it is discovered that you essentially lied on your medical school application?

Everyone has, at one time or another, had bad trends during their college careers; it's so commonplace as to not raise an eyebrow even with such low GPA. What matters most is not how bad you did back then, but what you've done since to pull yourself back up. What's your GPA now, how long do you have to go on the prerequisites, and how much work are you willing to spend on damage-control? Figure out where your GPA is at, assume that the rest is rolled in, and figure out how many courses and grades you'd need to pull it back up and plan accordingly.
 

MSKalltheway

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If the answer is yes then I do think its possible but also to explore all possibilities is a good thing and logical, too many want to dismiss options like the Caribbean based on misconceptions and hearsay, not a first choice of course but its viable.

SO I bring it up in certain circumstances.:luck:

Good call! I know people now that I suggested applying to DO schools too, since they were having trouble in even getting interviews, and they told me no I'll just go to the Caribbean (I think simply because they were all about having the MD, which in the end really DOESN'T matter, I've seen plenty of DOs and IMG's as residents when I worked at Hopkins), without looking into the option really at all. I was a bit annoyed to say the least...

And don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to turn this into a degree or location debate because in the end, the MD/DO/Carib debate is trite and doesn't really matter...its about being a good physician and caring about your patients, because they keep you in business. So my point is, oldpro is right, keep all your options open at all times, in the end they will be your best friend.
 

oldpro

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Good call! I know people now that I suggested applying to DO schools too, since they were having trouble in even getting interviews, and they told me no I'll just go to the Caribbean (I think simply because they were all about having the MD, which in the end really DOESN'T matter, I've seen plenty of DOs and IMG's as residents when I worked at Hopkins), without looking into the option really at all. I was a bit annoyed to say the least...

And don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to turn this into a degree or location debate because in the end, the MD/DO/Carib debate is trite and doesn't really matter...its about being a good physician and caring about your patients, because they keep you in business. So my point is, oldpro is right, keep all your options open at all times, in the end they will be your best friend.


Yeah I do not think this is about MD-DO-Caribbean but about choices and that the OP has a long road but can succeed if they embrace a path.

It may lead to any of these..............
 

QofQuimica

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That's the kinds of GPA one gets after collecting a series of Ws and Fs.
Not easy on the eyes, I tell you.

Some background info:

After high school (3.5 GPA, 1360 SAT I), enrolled in the local community college, proceeded to bomb spectacularly. Thinking I could start over with a 'clean slate'(little did I know), I went to another community college an hour away, bombed spectacularly, again. Now, I could go on and on about the factors, circumstances, and allat good stuff, but it would be irrelevant. At the end of the day, all that matters is what you've done. I'll save all the 'hardships overcome' stories for my kids. Currently, thanks to my strong high school record, I got accepted into a university in another state, start this fall. I haven't reported any prior college attendance, which makes me a freshman 3rd time over. I'm not looking for shortcuts. And I'm willing to do 'my time'. I'm not, however, willing to let bureucratic red-tape wreck my application.

Motivation? Done & Done. Its gametime and I'm finna to play. Aptitude & Ability? I know I can hack it, it being undergrad and the application process. Research ? Looked into all my options, tentatively ruling out foreign medical schools and post-bac/SMP. Tentatively.

But I'm hitting a roadblock good SDNers.

AMCAS in its glorious wisdom has decreed that all grades from all college-level classes will be calculated towards the final GPA medical schools receive. Which means even if I go on a string of unbroken A's from here to post-bac and back, I'll still end up with something like a 1.99 GPA, thanks to those 4 character-building semesters. If, that is, I report it.
There is no "if" here. You must report these transcripts, no matter how badly it hurts your overall GPA. The AMCAS rules very explicitly require you to report every post secondary course you've ever taken. There is no exception for the courses being graded with Fs or Ws or taken in community colleges. Sorry, but you aren't absolved from your duty to report them by your rationalization that the AMCAS rules are just "bureaucratic red tape."
The question: How do I fix/amend/rectify/surgically amputate that beauty of a GPA so that I still have a chance, reasonable enough chance, to compete for a US medical school spot?

I'm 23, if it matters. Thanking SDNers and the non-trad section, your posts/resources were invaluable in conducting my research.
You start by contacting one of your state schools and arranging a meeting with the admissions director there. Discuss your situation with him or her and ask whether a fresh start will give you a fighting chance. Then you'll know where to go from there.

I think the main barrier here is: Does AMCAS have a way of finding out what grades you got in community college ?

Here's my scenario: Currently at XYZ 4 year state school(pretty good ranking nationwide), ace/aim for 3.5+ GPA, 32+ MCAT...and apply. Don't report CC attendance.

Feasible ?
Definitely NOT feasible to not report your CC grades, and yes, AMCAS or your med school could find out about them and revoke your acceptance or degree at any point in the future even if you make it through the app process. You also can't count in advance on earning a 32+ on the MCAT; you may be able to do it, but a 33 is about the 90th percentile for all test-takers. This isn't the SAT; the MCAT is a curved test, and the people you're taking it against are a lot better on average than the ones you took the SAT with.

One burning question I have for you (and that no doubt the admissions director will have too) is what made you suddenly decide you want to go to med school? You haven't even finished a semester of college yet. You may get a year or two into college and decide to do something else completely different. It's very common for this to happen, actually. I guess what I'm trying to say is from what you've said so far, I don't get the sense that you've thought this decision out very well. Now if you tell me that you flunked four semesters of college due to personal or family illness, then I can see some connection. But right now, I don't see one good reason to think that you are committed to this pathway. Talk is cheap; what have you DONE to show interest/aptitude? Do you understand what I'm getting at here?
 

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Now if you tell me that you flunked four semesters of college due to personal or family illness, then I can see some connection. But right now, I don't see one good reason to think that you are committed to this pathway. Talk is cheap; what have you DONE to show interest/aptitude? Do you understand what I'm getting at here?


Q what bothers me with these stories is while in Nursing school for instance, My DAD died, he was 44 and it was a shock, I had exams and told the school, they excuse me but one professor called me in and told me I had to take the exam 1 day after my Dads Funeral, of course I failed that exam and had to retake the whole semester of Nursing school over, it was the rules and the Dean said that I did not have to take the exam when I did I could of had another 1 to 2 weeks and the Professor denied that they called me, I tried to argue but no one really cared and said it was my fault and in real life it's tough. This is why I'm very critical of Academia at times when these things are looked at do they have such a cold heart? In my own experience they did. What I learned from this was to go to class every day you can, if anything happens stand your ground and never take a test if it is not right to do so, tests can be used to help you or hurt you.................................

So I'm in the Caribbean MS II.

Way it goes sometimes.....................
 

QofQuimica

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Q what bothers me with these stories is while in Nursing school for instance, My DAD died, he was 44 and it was a shock, I had exams and told the school, they excuse me but one professor called me in and told me I had to take the exam 1 day after my Dads Funeral, of course I failed that exam and had to retake the whole semester of Nursing school over, it was the rules and the Dean said that I did not have to take the exam when I did I could of had another 1 to 2 weeks and the Professor denied that they called me, I tried to argue but no one really cared and said it was my fault and in real life it's tough. This is why I'm very critical of Academia at times when these things are looked at do they have such a cold heart? In my own experience they did. What I learned from this was to go to class every day you can, if anything happens stand your ground and never take a test if it is not right to do so, tests can be used to help you or hurt you.................................

So I'm in the Caribbean MS II.

Way it goes sometimes.....................
I'm sorry about your dad and how your prof and school treated you, oldpro. :( I don't know how to answer your specific question any more than I can really explain why any human being wantonly chooses to be indifferent to another human being's suffering. I guess if we figure out the answer to that question, we'll go a long way toward finding world peace. But even though it made the app process harder, you still didn't omit to report your nursing grades, I didn't omit my P/F UG grades, and the OP can't omit his CC grades. He doesn't want to tell us what happened, which is his right, so we're just speculating that he or a family member had a serious illness. But maybe it's not so innocent. I mean, would you feel differently if the OP told us that he spent the last two years skipping class, getting high and partying, and he decided he wants to go to med school after he almost died from a heroin OD a month ago? We don't know anything close to the whole story, but you can see why the med schools DO need to get the whole story if they're going to be able to even try to fairly judge him against their other applicants.
 

oldpro

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I'm sorry about your dad and how your prof and school treated you, oldpro. :( I don't know how to answer your specific question any more than I can really explain why any human being wantonly chooses to be indifferent to another human being's suffering. I guess if we figure out the answer to that question, we'll go a long way toward finding world peace. But even though it made the app process harder, you still didn't omit to report your nursing grades, I didn't omit my P/F UG grades, and the OP can't omit his CC grades. He doesn't want to tell us what happened, which is his right, so we're just speculating that he or a family member had a serious illness. But maybe it's not so innocent. I mean, would you feel differently if the OP told us that he spent the last two years skipping class, getting high and partying, and he decided he wants to go to med school after he almost died from a heroin OD a month ago? We don't know anything close to the whole story, but you can see why the med schools DO need to get the whole story if they're going to be able to even try to fairly judge him against their other applicants.

Yes I agree with you I just felt like telling a part of my story, Going to the Caribbean is a long and complicated story, but this past event messed up my GPA, till then it was around 3.5, so Really it did not reflect my abilities. As I think grades are only one dimension a lot of times but really they are the best way to gage a person's ability to learn and study in one respect.

Having good study habits is a must for Medical school.
 
D

deleted113029

That's the kinds of GPA one gets after collecting a series of Ws and Fs.
Not easy on the eyes, I tell you.

Some background info:







AMCAS in its glorious wisdom has decreed that all grades from all college-level classes will be calculated towards the final GPA medical schools receive. Which means even if I go on a string of unbroken A's from here to post-bac and back, I'll still end up with something like a 1.99 GPA, thanks to those 4 character-building semesters. If, that is, I report it.

The question: How do I fix/amend/rectify/surgically amputate that beauty of a GPA so that I still have a chance, reasonable enough chance, to compete for a US medical school spot?

I'm 23, if it matters. Thanking SDNers and the non-trad section, your posts/resources were invaluable in conducting my research.

am i missing something here?! you will be ~26-27 y.o. when you apply to medschool. something is going to tip the adcom that you must have done something between the ages of 18 and 23. adcoms are not stupid so reporting your CC grades may/will be in your best interest.
 

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True. It's difficult to hide a "black hole" in your life, and lying during med school application/residency application or licensure application can be devestating, if somebody ever found out. (as in losing your degree and/or medical license).
However, as posted by others, AMCAS allows for grade substitution, if you retake a course. I assume this covers the premed req's, which of course would be helpful.
But to be honest, no matter how you look at it, I think most adcoms would really be concerned about four CC semesters with a cumulative 0.00 GPA.
 

MSKalltheway

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Q what bothers me with these stories is while in Nursing school for instance, My DAD died, he was 44 and it was a shock, I had exams and told the school, they excuse me but one professor called me in and told me I had to take the exam 1 day after my Dads Funeral, of course I failed that exam and had to retake the whole semester of Nursing school over, it was the rules and the Dean said that I did not have to take the exam when I did I could of had another 1 to 2 weeks and the Professor denied that they called me, I tried to argue but no one really cared and said it was my fault and in real life it's tough. This is why I'm very critical of Academia at times when these things are looked at do they have such a cold heart? In my own experience they did. What I learned from this was to go to class every day you can, if anything happens stand your ground and never take a test if it is not right to do so, tests can be used to help you or hurt you.................................

So I'm in the Caribbean MS II.

Way it goes sometimes.....................

I'm very sorry to hear all that happened to you :(

You would think that people working in health and medicine would understand circumstances like that better :mad: It's a shame...
 
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oldpro

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I'm very sorry to hear all that happened to you :(

You would think that people working in health and medicine would understand circumstances like that better :mad: It's a shame...
Oh it was 19 years ago, (I'm 43 now myself) I just thought about it when pondering the reasons some of us have problems, this one was more of a problem then it may have would have been if I was able to confide in someone who knew how to guide me, it was sad I think the Dean wanted to help me but since I took the test "I took the test" That is why I always tell everyone do not take a test without studying or ready fr the test ie: MCAT and USMLE, do not rush and be prepared for them. It haunts you if rush.......................most times.
 

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However, as posted by others, AMCAS allows for grade substitution, if you retake a course. I assume this covers the premed req's, which of course would be helpful...

Don't you mean that AACOMAS allows for grade substitution? AMCAS, unfortunately, averages every undergraduate class, retake, or not, into the mix.

Anyway, I concur with the what everyone is saying: don't lie and don't omit your past grades. Work with what you have, demonstrate your new commitment, and be realistic.
 

oldpro

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Don't you mean that AACOMAS allows for grade substitution? AMCAS, unfortunately, averages every undergraduate class, retake, or not, into the mix.

Anyway, I concur with the what everyone is saying: don't lie and don't omit your past grades. Work with what you have, demonstrate your new commitment, and be realistic.


Yes it's possible and can be done with commitment.(To OP) Really understand there are no Shortcuts, Not in getting the GPA up , not the Caribbean ( It's not a shortcut ) not DO, in every circumstance you will need to work hard.

You can do it if you are committed good luck
 

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Yes DO is forgiving but they are becoming very competitive I'm not so sure this case is so easily explained either way it is years ahead for this person and thats something to consider, when I look at this I think 5 to 6 years away to prove they can do the work and even then the GPA may be a problem.:eek:

I'm not at all saying that a DO school would be easy to get into. My husband and I will both be applying only DO this year and we are thankful the DOs schools seem to be more forgiving of bad grades, say from 10-20 years ago. I figured the OP would be in school for at least four years because of starting freshman year all over again. Also if the OP retook all the classes, then wouldn't that take them back to a 4.0 according to AACOMAS. I mean I know the other courses would still be listed but calculations wise it would really improve the GPA. I do agree that it will still take a lot of work for the OP to show that they are ready and able for the commitment of medical school. However wanting to possibly practice overseas is another question. I don't know what countries recognize DOs as being equal to MDs.
 

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That's the kinds of GPA one gets after collecting a series of Ws and Fs.
Not easy on the eyes, I tell you.

Some background info:

After high school (3.5 GPA, 1360 SAT I), enrolled in the local community college, proceeded to bomb spectacularly. Thinking I could start over with a 'clean slate'(little did I know), I went to another community college an hour away, bombed spectacularly, again. Now, I could go on and on about the factors, circumstances, and allat good stuff, but it would be irrelevant. At the end of the day, all that matters is what you've done. I'll save all the 'hardships overcome' stories for my kids. Currently, thanks to my strong high school record, I got accepted into a university in another state, start this fall. I haven't reported any prior college attendance, which makes me a freshman 3rd time over. I'm not looking for shortcuts. And I'm willing to do 'my time'. I'm not, however, willing to let bureucratic red-tape wreck my application.

Motivation? Done & Done. Its gametime and I'm finna to play. Aptitude & Ability? I know I can hack it, it being undergrad and the application process. Research ? Looked into all my options, tentatively ruling out foreign medical schools and post-bac/SMP. Tentatively.

But I'm hitting a roadblock good SDNers.

AMCAS in its glorious wisdom has decreed that all grades from all college-level classes will be calculated towards the final GPA medical schools receive. Which means even if I go on a string of unbroken A's from here to post-bac and back, I'll still end up with something like a 1.99 GPA, thanks to those 4 character-building semesters. If, that is, I report it.

The question: How do I fix/amend/rectify/surgically amputate that beauty of a GPA so that I still have a chance, reasonable enough chance, to compete for a US medical school spot?

I'm 23, if it matters. Thanking SDNers and the non-trad section, your posts/resources were invaluable in conducting my research.


How will they know if you never used those schools for transfer credit?
Pretend it enver happened. Those transcripts don't exist.
 

oldpro

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I'm not at all saying that a DO school would be easy to get into. My husband and I will both be applying only DO this year and we are thankful the DOs schools seem to be more forgiving of bad grades, say from 10-20 years ago. I figured the OP would be in school for at least four years because of starting freshman year all over again. Also if the OP retook all the classes, then wouldn't that take them back to a 4.0 according to AACOMAS. I mean I know the other courses would still be listed but calculations wise it would really improve the GPA. I do agree that it will still take a lot of work for the OP to show that they are ready and able for the commitment of medical school. However wanting to possibly practice overseas is another question. I don't know what countries recognize DOs as being equal to MDs.
I'm not sure retaking does that because isn't this seen as "Padding the GPA?"


Bottom line is if you fail everything you have to retake anyway. But is it a new gpa or will they be averaged somehow, anyway in this case Allopathy in the US may be out of reach but until the OP starts the path and accomplishing anything it's only speculation for now. ( I know what you meant by the way)

:luck:
 

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oh and lie. make up a splendid story abou what you did, took time off from school worked before going to school. :D

reporting that gpa will be the worst thing oyu could do
 

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How will they know if you never used those schools for transfer credit?
Pretend it enver happened. Those transcripts don't exist.

That's not good advice to the OP, in my opinion. You are tempting fate by lying and/or omitting relevant data. If you can be absolutely impeccable, you might get away with it, but that's just it: nobody is for very long. Even if you were impeccable with your lies, you'd suffer a cost in terms of your integrity. Believe me: secrets make you sick, eventually. It's a choice, but I would personally advise against omitting your grades. Learn to take full responsibility for your prior actions and choices. You can recover, but it won't be easy. Nevertheless, it's what you brought on yourself, so you will need to deal with it. There is something very precious, valuable and powerful about stepping up to the plate and taking complete responsibility for your life. That's where I think magic can happen and does. Anyway, everything has a price, in my opinion; in this universe, it's pretty much impossible to get something for nothing. It's simple thermodynamics. Given this, if you take a "simple out," my guess is that you'll be needing to pay up somewhere else later. Just, FWIW.

Also, it's not hard for schools to check. And they might if you give them reason. School records and whatnot are readily available.
 

oldpro

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How will they know if you never used those schools for transfer credit?
Pretend it enver happened. Those transcripts don't exist.

Are you serious? There is a database of what you took in College, they have access to this when you apply. and Lying will only catch up with you, look there are Licensed MD's that have lied about undergrad and then the licensed was revoked, yes that has happened do not believe lying is ok.
 

oldpro

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oh and lie. make up a splendid story abou what you did, took time off from school worked before going to school. :D

reporting that gpa will be the worst thing oyu could do

WOW you are joking right? OK another story, this was not even a lie, A grad from Spartan Medical school (FMG) had been practicing in Indiana for years but because of a news story about the school the Medical Board decided to deny the Medical License, yes true story so if they found out you lied to get into medical school they could then pull your license, do not think this is simple and will never happens, no one cares how good of a Doc you are if they can say they did something to save the public for political reasons, someone is always a scape goat.....................................................
 
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As a person who flunked out of undergrad then manage to get acepted MD/PhD later (I didn't matriculate) here's what worked for me:

1) I realistically gave myself 5 years to get my **** together.

2) I COMPLETELY put getting into med school OFF my mind until I had finished my first undergrad degree AFTER being readmitted to the school I once flunked out of. Then in part because my GPA was STILL low (2.1) I completed a second bachelor's degree at a new school.

3) Because I was still being told getting into med school was impossible, I had a choice at this point to either do a post bacc or Master's. I KNEW I wanted MD/PhD and even more impossible goal, so I decided on the Master's degree. I also wanted to be competitve for the job market as a solid back-up and a post-bacc wouldn't have cut it. Tha turned out to be smart because life dealt me additional setbacks so I ended up using that Master's for longer than I origionally anticipated.

4) I recorded a decent MCAT score, finished my Master's in December, and the following April, was accepted MD/PhD.

Like other posters have mentioned, I've also dealt with more death/disease than I felt any young person should have to deal with, but I didn't dwell on in my personal statements. As cold as that one prof sounds, bad things in life do happen and I think it's key NOT to worry about profs, but to do what you can to save your own a$$ when things get rough, like take a W for the course or petition your depratment to drop the course.

Best of luck! You won't have to go Caribbean if you're willing to be patient, smart and methodical in your plan to matriuclate into a US MD school.
 

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Hm. Well, I wasn't quite that bad, but I had a 1.something GPA after 4 semesters, and failed 4 courses that last semester. Ok, ALL four courses. Fast forward 16 years. I go back to school, start over, and do quite well. My old grades continue to haunt me... my AMCAS GPA was a 3.2something. My MCAT was 29. Being in my late 30s hurt me at some schools (according to them - I think it was a convenient excuse for no interview because they had no other reason). I'm currently an MSI at a DO school (and having a fabulous time).

You're right - DO schools are getting more competitive. MCAT averages are climbing quickly toward the 30 mark, and GPAs are also climbing. Several DO schools have MCAT averages around 27 and GPA averages around 3.5-3.6. But they seem more forgiving of poor past performance, especially if you do well afterward and are willing to say "I screwed up" or "I just wasn't ready".

Bottom line: it CAN be overcome. Get damn good grades from here on out. Do some interesting research and volunteering. Contact some admissions offices at nearby med schools to get a consult on your particular situation. You MUST get a decent MCAT. And you need a compelling application.

Good luck to you. Study hard.
 

Meatwad

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That's the kinds of GPA one gets after collecting a series of Ws and Fs.
Not easy on the eyes, I tell you.

Some background info:

After high school (3.5 GPA, 1360 SAT I), enrolled in the local community college, proceeded to bomb spectacularly. Thinking I could start over with a 'clean slate'(little did I know), I went to another community college an hour away, bombed spectacularly, again. Now, I could go on and on about the factors, circumstances, and allat good stuff, but it would be irrelevant. At the end of the day, all that matters is what you've done. I'll save all the 'hardships overcome' stories for my kids. Currently, thanks to my strong high school record, I got accepted into a university in another state, start this fall. I haven't reported any prior college attendance, which makes me a freshman 3rd time over. I'm not looking for shortcuts. And I'm willing to do 'my time'. I'm not, however, willing to let bureucratic red-tape wreck my application.

Motivation? Done & Done. Its gametime and I'm finna to play. Aptitude & Ability? I know I can hack it, it being undergrad and the application process. Research ? Looked into all my options, tentatively ruling out foreign medical schools and post-bac/SMP. Tentatively.

But I'm hitting a roadblock good SDNers.

AMCAS in its glorious wisdom has decreed that all grades from all college-level classes will be calculated towards the final GPA medical schools receive. Which means even if I go on a string of unbroken A's from here to post-bac and back, I'll still end up with something like a 1.99 GPA, thanks to those 4 character-building semesters. If, that is, I report it.

The question: How do I fix/amend/rectify/surgically amputate that beauty of a GPA so that I still have a chance, reasonable enough chance, to compete for a US medical school spot?

I'm 23, if it matters. Thanking SDNers and the non-trad section, your posts/resources were invaluable in conducting my research.

I have a similar, although not quite as bad, story. Basically I had 2 semester's of F's, which was due to a health problem. I'm currently in the process of getting the F's retroactively changed to W's, but if that doesn't pan out, I'll take the F's and accept them. Like you said, it's in my past and that person is not me. For the past three semesters, I've earned all A's save for one (B+). I will NEVER, however, have a decent GPA. I've also accepted this fact, and I see you have as well. And for this reason, I am almost banking on going to a Carribean school (by the time I graduate, even if I continue my trend, I'll only have like a 3.1 or so); a DO school is a crap shoot due to my GPA.

I don't know about you, but I want to be a doctor. Everyone has their own reasons, but they all stem in one way or another from the desire to heal or alleviate people's sufferring. Since I have only the purest intentions for wating to enter medicine, I'm willing to take any path that leads me there; even if that means going to the Caribbean. I would say this to you: fast forward a few years when you graduate school. Would you be crushed, unhappy, and unwilling to pursue your goal of being a doctor if you had to settle for a school in the Caribbean? Or would you be just as driven and motivated to reach your goal?

You've got to realize, there are so many qualified candidates for med school that DIDN'T eff up in their past. These admissions committees need a way to pick people. Who do you think you'd pick? I'm just a realist when it comes to that, I guess.
 

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I have similar semesters in my past - at least one semester of entirely F and W grades, and one more that's almost entirely the same.. Plus 2 years of mediocre grades before that. During the semester of entirely F/W grades I was finally stabilized on medication for bipolar disorder - fun, huh?

Do not lie or omit the records... Tell the truth, college transcripts are basically public record - like other people said, even if you get away with it, if someone finds out later, your medical license could potentially get pulled since you got into med school on false pretenses.

What I was told, not exactly word for word, but pretty close: Don't screw up again, obviously - make sure you're ready this time around. Obsessing over the GPA won't make it higher, getting As will, so it's more productive to spend the time studying and working than obsessing. Post-baccs might help if you're still totally FUBAR upon completion of undergrad. Letters of recommendation are extremely valuable so make friends with your science professors - going to them for extra help when you need it is a great way to do this, so long as you don't cross the line into "intolerable suck-up" who really doesn't need any help and just wants to kiss the professor's behind.

I wouldn't _completely_ rule out DO programs or the Carribean, even though you seem to have reasons for tentatively doing so... I'd rather end up in a US-based MD school, too.. But I'll go to any accredited medical school that will accept me, when the time comes, because I want to become a doctor and I'm aware that there are a lot of academically "better" candidates out there for medical education than me. It sucks, but that's the way it goes. x_X
 

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like other prev. posters said, I agree that you shouldn't lie about your past grades. I understand how desperately you would like to start from a scratch. But not everybody is lucky to have a spotless past. right? :)

I heard medical schools keep blacklist for applicants who have fabricated their records and gotten busted, which prevent them to apply to any medical school after all.. I think you're smart enough to figure out what to do. follow your dream. it can be done!
 

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I'll save all the 'hardships overcome' stories for my kids. Currently, thanks to my strong high school record, I got accepted into a university in another state, start this fall. I haven't reported any prior college attendance, which makes me a freshman 3rd time over. I'm not looking for shortcuts. And I'm willing to do 'my time'. I'm not, however, willing to let bureucratic red-tape wreck my application.



In the "Big Picture" nothing you have cited is an absolute 'death sentence' to your application. However, you MUST expect & PREPARE for addtional scrutiny of your application as you have several red flags that prompt this: only 23 & have bombed at a CC times 2, several W's & F's at a CC and so on. Now, you may not wish to elaborate on SDN - perfectly understandable - but you had best have address (in a succint, non-apologetic, taking-ownership sort of way) these issues in your PS and you will absolutely have to be able to articulate, in very cogent manner, your story to any interviewees you will encounter. We, here on SDN, do not really count in the admissions process, but the AdCom folks do & do so heavily.

What concerns me - very substantially - is what I have changed to red & emboldened above. In essence, to have not reported prior college-credit coursework as part of your application constitutes academic fraud & is grounds for immediate dismissal at every academic institution I have attended...and there have been several! So, even if you 'rock the house' gradewise at this new university, you will constantly be under the gun for if they ever discover your dishonesty, you will get the boot. Even worse, no matter how bright you are, if you get the boot for academic dishonesty/fraud, you can kiss any future collegiate admissions good-bye, potentially forever. In my estimation, it is not worth the risk because you are clearly bright, as is evidenced by your HS work; however, the path you have chosen does suggest some issues with maturity &/or honesty.

Furthermore, again due to the aforementioned fraud, if & when you get admitted to medical school, you will continue to be under the gun due to your dishonesty. You will still be subject to immediate dismissal throughout medical school, if they ever find out.
 

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So much about the OPs post worry me. You have lied and obviously have no problem doing it again. Being honest only when you know you would get caught = no integrity. Bad form. Also you are getting really, really far ahead of yourself. I'm sorry but a 3.5 in HS isn't that hard and neither is a 1360 SAT. Those don't really ensure you can or will handle the course load of full time college. Plenty of people had 4.0s in HS and ended up with average GPAs. So now you have already demonstrated dishonesty and arrogance. Wouldn't want you as my Dr anyway.

Edit: I am glad someone mentioned the database of transcripts. More and more colleges are joining the database. Thank God...apparently there are people that need to be force to do the right thing. None of this really matters though. There is a good chance you will be kicked out of your current University (for the fraud you committed to get in) before you even get a chance to apply to medical school.
 

oldpro

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SAD but they may be able to get in, in the Caribbean.............but then again God help them if they lie about things because the state boards will just yank the license, if they are sued and the lawyers on the opposing side find out they lied and failed out of two cc's then lied to get into medschool they will be toast besides on the news and then the State Medical Board will pull the License.

I see lying as a no win no matter what you end up constantly on the run for the lie.

To the OP: we are tying to help you from a life of problems and a world of hurt, please consider it as help not as putting you down you can do well and make it without lying. OLDMAN DAVE did and I have.
 

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"Aptitude & Ability? I know I can hack it, it being undergrad and the application process."

I'm sorry, but what makes you think you can "hack it" after you failed out of two CCs and lied your way back into college? Many successful med school applicants have started off with bad college experiences, but they were able to overcome them with honesty and maturity, two qualities that you seem to lack.

Maybe you should wait until you are already "hacking it" (ie, getting 4.0s in all your premed classes and rocking the MCAT) before you start worrying about applying to med school. For now, you should worry about getting an integrity check.
 

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Med schools don't want liars and people who can't own up to their mistakes. Because guess what? Applicants who are immature liars tend to become immature, lying, doctors. And that is good for absolutely no one.
 

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So much about the OPs post worry me. You have lied and obviously have no problem doing it again. Being honest only when you know you would get caught = no integrity. Bad form. Also you are getting really, really far ahead of yourself. I'm sorry but a 3.5 in HS isn't that hard and neither is a 1360 SAT. Those don't really ensure you can or will handle the course load of full time college. Plenty of people had 4.0s in HS and ended up with average GPAs. So now you have already demonstrated dishonesty and arrogance. Wouldn't want you as my Dr anyway.

Edit: I am glad someone mentioned the database of transcripts. More and more colleges are joining the database. Thank God...apparently there are people that need to be force to do the right thing. None of this really matters though. There is a good chance you will be kicked out of your current University (for the fraud you committed to get in) before you even get a chance to apply to medical school.

I definitely agree. :thumbup: And while the OP won't say why, failing out of community college *twice* isn't usually a good sign...it often indicates that failing out the first time wasn't a fluke.

Going into medicine also requires background checks, during which the community colleges can come up...and if the OP ever claimed he was a student during those years on his taxes, that's another place they can pop up.
 

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Off topic, but to foofish- your location always makes my laugh.
 

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Thank you all for your input and advice. I really appreciate it.
A few things I'd like to address:

-- The circumstances/issues I was facing during my CC years were a)grave, this wasn't a case of flunking out due to drugs, partying, goofing off on general principles, or plain incompetence and b) circumstances outside my control. I've got no problem discussing it here or with an ADCOM, but I don't want this thread to get sidetracked. I'm sure it will stand the scrutiny of an ADCOM.....if the ADCOM doesn't get hysterical laughter after seeing my incurable GPA. Which is my main concern.

-- If I do come across as overconfident or immature, I guess my writing style needs tweaking but that's not my intent. Believe me; I've lived life at 23. Brief synopsis: Been on my own since 18(zero financial support from anyone). Payed full tuition/books costs at both CCs, again on my own. Started my own business, moderately successful (paid the tuition, rent, and bills...some savings). Traveled overseas during which I witnessed scenes that solidified my sense of service and responsibility. Decided the best way to serve would be as a physician. And that is the relevant good parts/factors that's driving me. The not-so-good parts would require another thread. So, good SDNers, I'm not shooting from the hip. I do know what I'm doing, what it entails, and am fully capable of the rigors of medical school and beyond. As an anon once said: It's the struggle that teaches us.

-- Rhetorical Question (for those of you who have ever smoked a cigarette): If AMCAS includes a clause in the application process that severely curtails the chances of any smoker (chain, once-a-week, once-a-lifetime-and-I'm-never-doing it again) to compete for medical school, would you with all your academic honesty and honorable integrity check yes, I have indeed smoked a cig once in the 7th grade, your AMCAS majesty. And then proceed to collect all your rejection letters. It's not so black-and-white anymore, is it? And before somebody interjects with "ridiculous hypothetical". Here's what's more ridiculous: .....on second thought, scratch that...it'll sidetrack our discussion (hint: cadaver-stealing doc allowed to continue residency. Integrity galore. Go Wise-Men of Medicine. I can quote a multitude of example showcasing how abusive and fraudulent docs were granted leeway after a suitable show of penance. Hypocrisy much ?...not justifying my case, just widening the view)
At what point does political correctness run amok? rhetorical again. Think about it.

-- As I stated earlier, I'm not looking for a shortcut. I'm more than able and willing to do my time. Whether it's post-back, Caribbean or any other option. What I cannot accept, however, is a roadblock in the form of this archaic rule. Convicts get their criminal records expunged. Felons of the worst sort receive presidential pardons. But ill ol' premed can't rectify (not asking for a pardon, mind you....rectify..fix) 4 semesters of undue, unrelenting hell? And if I ignore said law, that suddenly makes me a fraud/no-integrity/dishonest individual? How'd that old Kit-Kat commercial go: "Gimme a break, giiiiime a break..gimmea break of some common sense!!)
 

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I don't think most people on here are saying you can't rectify the situation. We're just saying you can't rectify the situation by hiding it and/or lying about it.
 

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-- Rhetorical Question (for those of you who have ever smoked a cigarette): If AMCAS includes a clause in the application process that severely curtails the chances of any smoker (chain, once-a-week, once-a-lifetime-and-I'm-never-doing it again) to compete for medical school, would you with all your academic honesty and honorable integrity check yes, I have indeed smoked a cig once in the 7th grade, your AMCAS majesty. And then proceed to collect all your rejection letters. It's not so black-and-white anymore, is it? And before somebody interjects with "ridiculous hypothetical". Here's what's more ridiculous: .....on second thought, scratch that...it'll sidetrack our discussion (hint: cadaver-stealing doc allowed to continue residency. Integrity galore. Go Wise-Men of Medicine. I can quote a multitude of example showcasing how abusive and fraudulent docs were granted leeway after a suitable show of penance. Hypocrisy much ?...not justifying my case, just widening the view)[/COLOR]
At what point does political correctness run amok? rhetorical again. Think about it.

-- As I stated earlier, I'm not looking for a shortcut. I'm more than able and willing to do my time. Whether it's post-back, Caribbean or any other option. What I cannot accept, however, is a roadblock in the form of this archaic rule. Convicts get their criminal records expunged. Felons of the worst sort receive presidential pardons. But ill ol' premed can't rectify (not asking for a pardon, mind you....rectify..fix) 4 semesters of undue, unrelenting hell? And if I ignore said law, that suddenly makes me a fraud/no-integrity/dishonest individual? How'd that old Kit-Kat commercial go: "Gimme a break, giiiiime a break..gimmea break of some common sense!!)

Sorry kid, there are no breaks in life except the ones you create for yourself. :smuggrin:

I was at least willing to give you the benefit of the doubt before you decided you'd rather be a toolish rebel than a doctor. If that's the case, then good luck. I'm sure you'll make a fine rebel. You'll have a never-ending supply of things to push up against.

Trying to link smoking and prior academic performance is crazy. You have a skewed way of viewing your situation and what it takes to become a doctor. Your analogy is false; you can't relate the two. Prior academic performance can be directly linked to medical school performance. It is legitimate criteria in which you can be judged for your suitability for further academic work. I think the key word is (you guessed it) academic. Why shouldn't I look at your past as an indication for how you are now and how you will perform in the future? It's a good judge for your academic commitments. You can, of course, choose to make new academic commitments and demonstrate them soundly. I want to view your academic performance in context, and I'm sure that adcomms do as well; they'll find out one way or another. Come on. Wise up. Whether you actively hide your past or not, it'll show up. You can never escape your past; it's part of who you are. Use it wisely, or be stupid and try to hide it. That's all I'm going to say.

I wish you luck. Don't trip. :smuggrin:
 

sunnyjohn

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Two words -Upward trend.

You flunked out. You say you have a good reason. I believe you.

Still, don't lie. The system as it stand right now does not favor the underdog, whether or not his reason were legitimate or a result of youthful stupidity.

Us the system. Prep your butt of and destroy the MCAT. Write a personal statement worthy of a Pulitzer and moves the reader to beat his breast and say, "I MUST meet this remarkable young man/woman!"

Get LOR's that make you look like the next great gift to the medicine. Rack up EC's that would make ad coms think Mother Thersea/ Albert Schweitzer have come yet again to walk among us.

When you finally get in, graduate and finish residency, CHANGE THE SYSTEM so the next smart-but-honest-but-messed-up-with-good-reason premed stands a chance.
 

MSKalltheway

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The only thing I would further add to the discussion is that right now, if I were you, I would report your prior academic endeavors to your current institution for them to have during your records. You want to make sure all of your bases are covered. Like everyone else said, you might even get into a good school dispite your circumstances, but what will that matter if your current university finds out and takes back your degree while you are in medical school? Then bye med school and youre out of luck...

Maybe not everyone will cut you a break, but someone will. No matter how amazing or questionable credentials may be, even the most talented medical students need someone to cut them a break and grant them entrance. Those of us who do make it are blessed, no matter where we are and there is always someone else who can take our seat in the class.

The first time I took the MCAT (took it twice) I didnt do so hot...somehow I got an interview at a medical school anyway...the first question I was asked (on my first interview) was bluntly "what happened on your MCAT?" I did not expect this and was completely thrown. But I just owned up to it and said, "Maybe it wasn't my day, I dunno...I wish I could have done better, I studied very hard, but it just didn't work out." Two weeks later, the acceptance letter came. Maybe it won't always work out that way, but I think my interviewer appreciated my candor. Just put it all on the table and tell them to take it or leave it, you should be able to demand that your educators respect you for who you are. You'd be surprised how many of those who sit on the adcoms had a rough lot in life also.
 
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