Can a 0.00 GPA( over 4 semesters) be overcome ?

[Gametime]

Hmmm, don't know what to say about it except what he did was wrong. No one has said anything else. He was given mercy for what he did. I would say that mercy is never "deserved" but is rather given as a gift and thus we can't say because he recieved mercy therefore you should.... but as brought up previously, your not requesting mercy, your trying to avoid punishment

To which I would reply quite succintly: Any man or woman that cuts of the hand of a dead human being and gives it as a gift to a stripper, not only deserves a long prison term for desecrating a human being(as the laws of the land dictate) but should not be afforded the chance to practice EVER again. The same goes for docs that abuse their patients taking advantage of their authority.

But the wheels of hypocrisy turn faster than anything and they're back exercising their full priviledges in no time. Again, not equating my case to them. Just pointing out the crazy discrepencies in the system that will turn around and severely curtail the chances of otherwise able applicants by forcing them to report grades that resulted from circumstances outside their control(life-threatening disease that requires frequent hospitalisation is still considered a circumstance outside of one's control, right ? I know somebody's gonna say no ? Stoolie ?)

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[melissainsd]

I find it interesting that you don't want to discuss the ethical consequences of lying. I guess you are the reason why we have laws. Personally I wouldn't drink and drive because I would never put another person a risk, but I guess some people need the threat of fines or prison (and still others probably feel it is an unfair law and therefore disregard it). I would like to address a question you posed earlier. You wanted to know who it would hurt if you lied? Me.

I distinctly remember sitting in calc class a month after my mom died, silently crying. It was hard but I sucked it up and got an "A". Another time I actually died while being tested at the hospital (asystole, chest compressions, the whole thing). When I came to I waited an hour until I was discharged and then proceeded to return to school for an exam (another "A"). I think this shows adcoms my commitment and ability to overcome obstacles. You lying about how you handled hardship undermines the success of others. You cannot erase a chapter in your life story just because you don't like how it turned out. Use this time now as a chance to show them you have grown and can now handle whatever comes your way.

I don't care if some twisted individual mounts a cadaver outside his home in an effort to scare pigeons. You need to take responsibility for your actions and realize the crimes of others do not somehow diminish your own.

 

[Gametime]

Whether you think its fair or not is beside the point. Most medical schools do a background check after acceptance and before matriculation.

Depending on the school and the depth of the background check they will likely find that you had attended a community college (your social security number and name are associated with your attendance there), also if you submitted a FAFSA and got any government finanical aid they will DEFINITELY find out you went there..

Thanks angel, that was very informative. Follow-up Q: Hypothetically, What if when they do their background check and find my CC years, I suddenly 'remember' and provide them with the transcripts together with an documented explanation why I got such bad grades. Will they still pull the acceptance on principle ? Does 'I forgot' fly ?

 

[spicedmanna]

Thanks angel, that was very informative. Follow-up Q: Hypothetically, What if when they do their background check and find my CC years, I suddenly 'remember' and provide them with the transcripts together with an documented explanation why I got such bad grades. Will they still pull the acceptance on principle ? Does 'I forgot' fly ?

I doubt it. It would be clear to them that you omitted your grades willfully given that you did this twice, once at your university and again at the level of the AMCAS. Also, how does one forget years of their life? Perhaps an organic or psychological defect in your baseline mental status? That is indeed quite serious and you would be in need of medical attention.

 

[Nasrudin]

If you at all wnat to make an integrable impact on the things your talking about then you must deal with yourself first. The crusade you seek should be the inward one.

 

[lilnoelle]

Thanks angel, that was very informative. Follow-up Q: Hypothetically, What if when they do their background check and find my CC years, I suddenly 'remember' and provide them with the transcripts together with an documented explanation why I got such bad grades. Will they still pull the acceptance on principle ? Does 'I forgot' fly ?

I don't think anyone would believe you forgot about two years of community college especially if you had such a convenient reason to forget them (all fails and withdrawals).
No one can tell you what they will do, but I would bet it wouldn't get to that point because your community college grades will probably show up when AMCAS reviews your application.

 

[Gametime]

^^ Now we're talking, I'm a fresh rookie so bear with me. So AMCAS reviews transcripts thoroughly before medical schools ? Does that mean they do background checks too ?

Nasruden, You spoke the truth, and even though I'm doing a lot of typing and talking here, I'm determined(more than words can convey) about that inward crusade. It's the struggle that teaches us. And I relish the journey.

 

[spicedmanna]

^^ Now we're talking, I'm a fresh rookie so bear with me. So AMCAS reviews transcripts thoroughly before medical schools ? Does that mean they do background checks too ?

Absolutely. Your entire application is subject to verification. They have the right to alter your application to reflect what is accurate, and to inform schools of any discrepancies, omissions, and errors that they find.

 

[lilnoelle]

Absolutely. Your entire application is subject to verification. They have the right to alter your application to reflect what is accurate, and to inform schools of any discrepancies, omissions, and errors that they find.

And they do find them. I forgot to include a transcript for a course that I took in highschool for AP credit. My application was put on hold until I provided the transcript. I thought you would have gotten this message already because other individuals (including myself) alluded to the fact that your scores would probably show up during your application year, either via AMCAS or via the medschools themselves.
The slightly questionable thing is that you didn't report your grades colleges that you've attended. We don't know for sure (thought people have made these claims) that there is a database that keeps all of your grades according to your SSN. If there is not, and the background check doesn't include information about previous schools attended (I don't know if it does or not) then there is a chance that they wouldn't find out about your grades.

 

[oldpro]

GAMETIME Some issues that disturb me:

I don't think it is criminal or unethical to want a fresh start academically.

Ok everyone should get a second chance and we told you, you could but not by lying and cheating the system. By hard work and proving you can do the work

The difficulty arises when you lie about something in order to circumvent admissions committees from discovering your initial college failures. That lie becomes the basis of the percieved moral transgression. Which, of course, takes us to those age-old ethics problems: Would you lie to save a life ? If you had the chance to amend(falsify, whatever) the organ donation list so that your ailing, dying mother would be first in line for the donor's liver rather than #234, would you do it ?

It's not preconcieved moral transgression, you did it now you need to own up to the past and show you have changed based on what you have told us I'm not sure you have, based on this post I disagree that you will ever get into medschool until you decide to stop this way of thinking and work on school. Work on redeeming yourself to prove you have good study habits and good character, if you read the Licensing laws in each state, it states a Physician of good moral and ethical character or something just like that, thats how they get the liars the boards find out and yank the licenses.

If you had the chance to amend(falsify, whatever) the organ donation list so that your ailing, dying mother would be first in line for the donor's liver rather than #234, would you do it ? Some people would have you believe that: Nope, Sorry Mom, rules are rules. I would suffer from a condition called 'lack of integrity' if I went ahead and saved your life. G' Luck in Heaven.

Well You do know this happens everyday? Transplants go to those on the lists in order and compatability and some people die no matter who they are they stick by the rules and if you tried to cheat the system cause you could there you would be prosecuted..........you commited possible manslaughter because someone else died who needed the organ. Don't believe me? Lawyers do not live int he touchy feel-ly world and prosecutors love to get who they can to up the count of people convicted...it could happen in this scenario. Really I see this as a bad analogy we are talking about professional lying not transplants.

Like I said earlier with all due respect: Give me a break of some common sense. The level of high-horse-itis in some( only 1 or 2) posts is stupefying. Now,

Nothing to do with common sense.
I posted several times you cannot lie and have to report, I had to go to a Caribbean school due to some problems with grades also, I did not lie and so I will not tell you do anything I would not thats real integrity, not looking down on you, not even once.

And therein lies my point: I cannot accept a fudamentally unjust unfair law/rule.

It's the laws and rules you do not have to agree with them and life is not fair sorry.

By my omitting my CC grades, I'm not hurting anybody.

Yes you are you are cheating, you are cheating all of us who have worked to get accepted and to be Doctors and you are cheating yourself, you may not be qualified to study medicine once you have committed a crime, its a crime to omit information. Studying medicine is a privilege not a right, there lies your real answer, you have no right to study medicine. Thats how schools can turn down qualified applicants and not get sued, because there is no right to go to medical school.

So I guess my only crime is not following/or violating flawed "rules and regulations". I can live with that, with my integrity being stronger than ever. AMCAS or any medical board won't teach me the meaning of intgerity and charachter. I live those values everyday.

Well Your crime is cheating if you do this and if or when caught you will suffer severe penalties things like this the State and schools make examples of,
Then others will not cheat, believe me if you will do this whats to stop you from cheating ont tests and so forth? When is it ok to finally obey the rules?

I think your values are skewed in my opinion.

 

[thewendster]

^^ Now we're talking, I'm a fresh rookie so bear with me. So AMCAS reviews transcripts thoroughly before medical schools ? Does that mean they do background checks too ?

Nasruden, You spoke the truth, and even though I'm doing a lot of typing and talking here, I'm determined(more than words can convey) about that inward crusade. It's the struggle that teaches us. And I relish the journey.

Gametime, I mentioned in an earlier post to you that one community college class I took 7 years ago was discovered by all but one of the admissions committies.. and I was asked to submit a transcript for the class before they would review my application. I think the best place for you to confirm AMCAS and general medical school policies on transcript reviews would be to contact a few (annonymously, if you like) and see what they say.

I'd also like to comment on the general nature of some of these posts from both sides.. What does exchanging insults have to do with learning more about the non-traditional premedical process? It just bogs down the useful information usually found in these posts. I vote that we let this topic be unless we have something factual or informative to add.

 

[oldpro]

Gametime, I mentioned in an earlier post to you that one community college class I took 7 years ago was discovered by all but one of the admissions committies.. and I was asked to submit a transcript for the class before they would review my application. I think the best place for you to confirm AMCAS and general medical school policies on transcript reviews would be to contact a few (annonymously, if you like) and see what they say.

I'd also like to comment on the general nature of some of these posts from both sides.. What does exchanging insults have to do with learning more about the non-traditional premedical process? It just bogs down the useful information usually found in these posts. I vote that we let this topic be unless we have something factual or informative to add.

Well I have posted several times that lying is cheating the system and a crime and has consenquenses to them, I did not insult the OP but I'm trying to help them and others who think lying is ok, it is not, if caught you loose everything, how's that for help? Look I'M 43 and have been an RN for 18 years, I had to turn others in as a manger for Lying, yes they lost their licensed to practice Nursing, this is not so easy to ignor, they lied on the Patient record, faked some things, small and no one was hurt, but the bottom line is, and this was by the Nursing board, the character of these person was now in question and the state cannot tolerate this in Licensed professionals. Is this something you want to fool with?

Thats basically what they told me. SO what do you think this is not a big deal?

 

[notdeadyet]

A piece of advice: Be as brave as you want on the Internet, but I hope you do know that when you call a person a liar and a cheat to his face in the real world(even when deserved), you most likely will visit a maxillofacial surgeon(if the offending party is a male, that is). Not something I would advise.

If I start a thread about my owning a home, I don't get offended if people call me a homeowner.

You opened this thread to explicitly ask the opportunity and consequences of lying and cheating to get accepted to medical school. Folks calling it lying and cheating should not come as a suprise.

And in my experience, folks get their a$$ kicked when they accuse someone of lying and a cheating who isn't.

Kinda funny that after close to 100 posts, nobodys touching the cadaver-debasing resident example with a 10 foot pole. I wonder why

If you were planning on debasing a cadaver, I'm sure you'd get a lot of thoughts on that. But you're planning on lying/cheating on your med app. That's what folks are focusing on.

 

[notdeadyet]

I vote that we let this topic be unless we have something factual or informative to add.

When folks who are in high school start posting "what are my chances?" and whatnot, SDNers usually tell the kid to stay in college, study hard, get good grades and check back in a few years.

Gametime- Same advice. Right now you're asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. If you enter college and go 3 for 3 and flunk out, or get to college and pull a 2.0, med school won't happen and lying/cheating on your app is a moot point.

So stay in college, study hard, get good grades and check back with us in a few years. I'm willing to bet that after a few years in college taking classes in ethics, philosophy, and sociology, and a few years of extra living under your belt, you may have a new outlook on being good to your word.

Best of luck to you...

 

[oldpro]

When folks who are in high school start posting "what are my chances?" and whatnot, SDNers usually tell the kid to stay in college, study hard, get good grades and check back in a few years.

Gametime- Same advice. Right now you're asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. If you enter college and go 3 for 3 and flunk out, or get to college and pull a 2.0, med school won't happen and lying/cheating on your app is a moot point.

So stay in college, study hard, get good grades and check back with us in a few years. I'm willing to bet that after a few years in college taking classes in ethics, philosophy, and sociology, and a few years of extra living under your belt, you may have a new outlook on being good to your word.

Best of luck to you...

Good Point! We need to be good examples (I hope)

 

[Gametime]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not offended by what Stoolie said. Just giving him advice on general principles. Call somebody a liar and a cheat, you will get ur butt handed to you on a silver platter, unless you do it venting ur frustrations away on the internet. If you consider omitting info from an application that's fundamentally flawed as lying and cheating, well, that's you. I can racket up the morality play and utilising psychobabble paint Gandhi as a trouble-makin' agitator. Same way that you and others are playing with words, so can I(one man's freedom fighter......) You're obviously comfortable with the status quo and following rules(biased or not, flawed or not, unjust or not). Well, I don't do status quo. You do you, I do me. Just don't insult people when it serves no purpose but to be insulting.

While it has little to do with our discussion, look up the concept of civil disobediance/resistance.

Thanks tho for the advice. I promise you that come 3 years(thats the plan), if I'm still breathing and well, I will honestly tell you all of my progress(or regression)

 

[notdeadyet]

If you consider omitting info from an application that's fundamentally flawed as lying and cheating, well, that's you.

No, it's not me. It just is. I can omit income from my taxes since I don't support the current administration, but if I do, I recognize that it's cheating on my taxes. I'm honest at least with myself.

You can justify lying/cheating however you want, but at least recognize it for what it is. Anything else is just denial.

I can racket up the morality play and utilising psychobabble paint Gandhi as a trouble-makin' agitator.

When determining whether breaking the rules is an acceptable option, ask what the motive is.

In your case, you're lying/cheating to get something for yourself that you want. Gandhi broke the rules to get independence and human rights for his people. You might equate these, but they're actually kinda different.

You're obviously comfortable with the status quo and following rules (biased or not, flawed or not, unjust or not). Well, I don't do status quo.

Not when it doesn't serve you, no. Then you look to lie or cheat. Not good.

And btw, you may view the rules as biased/flawed/unjust, but most of us don't. See, if medical schools have all the information about you, they can determine whether or not they want you. If there are extenuating circumstances surrounding your app, you have the chance to explain them. You might be suprised how much medical schools look at the whole applicant. There are a lot of success stories about people who overcame some pretty amazing challenges and became doctors.

But med schools aren't flexible or understanding when it comes to honesty or integrity. They take a pretty firm stance on this.

 

[notdeadyet]

Do check back in a few years. It'll be interesting to see what college taught you.

 

[spicedmanna]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not offended by what Stoolie said. Just giving him advice on general principles. Call somebody a liar and a cheat, you will get ur butt handed to you on a silver platter, unless you do it venting ur frustrations away on the internet. If you consider omitting info from an application that's fundamentally flawed as lying and cheating, well, that's you. I can racket up the morality play and utilising psychobabble paint Gandhi as a trouble-makin' agitator. Same way that you and others are playing with words, so can I(one man's freedom fighter......) You're obviously comfortable with the status quo and following rules(biased or not, flawed or not, unjust or not). Well, I don't do status quo. You do you, I do me. Just don't insult people when it serves no purpose but to be insulting.

While it has little to do with our discussion, look up the concept of civil disobediance/resistance.

I don't have a fundamental problem with you doing as you please. I cannot control your actions, nor can I convince you of anything. It's up to you to make the necessary judgments and choices.

I do suggest, however, that you heed the advice of some of the people who have posted here. Many of the comments were given in earnest by people who I recognize as being people with great personal integrity and accomplishment. I know this because I've followed their posts for a long time. However, again, it is up to you to do as you please. Just know that there are consequences to your actions and choices. You cannot get by free of charge.

My original comment in a prior post about choosing to be a rebel or a doctor stands to point right now. If you choose to place your energy into bucking the system right now, then don't expect to become a doctor. It makes infinitely more sense and is more efficient to become a doctor first and then buck the system. Your understanding of the system is limited compared to those who have experienced it all the way through, and your current understanding is clouded by your misguided sense of entitlement at that. I recommend putting in the hard work necessary to becoming a doctor in a honorable way and then using yourself as an example of what true integrity can accomplish. Then, you have a leg to stand on in which to alter the system. You seem to forget that people judge not only where you are now, but the journey in which you took to accomplish it. I have trouble taking you seriously when you are consistantly considering actions that appear out of integrity to me. If your foundation is corrupt, then everything built upon that foundation takes on that same character. I have found this to be true in my dealings with many people.

Do not compare yourself with Gandhi. His philosophy is deeply grounded on truth, or Satyagraha. Please read up. Before he "rebelled" he was already a lawyer and spent many days suffering in labor along with his fellow man. He cleansed himself thoroughly. His moral character was unimpeachable enough that the English could not stand along with him, but were frequently embarrased. You, on the other hand, are choosing to avoid responsibility, instead of facing and accepting your integrity transgressions and then making them right. You do not have a leg to stand on until you face your issues and demonstrate your strength of character. I have no doubt that you have greatness in you. The question is whether you will rise to your potential, or choose to denegrate and violate yourself with actions that are beneath you.

I beseech you to not let pettiness stand in your way. Elevate yourself to the highest level you can be, then take on the world from the place of strength and sound character. Thank you.

 

[notdeadyet]

^^^ Rock solid post, spicedmanna. You nailed and summarized the whole damn thing. Well done. I'm impressed.

 

[oldpro]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not offended by what Stoolie said. Just giving him advice on general principles. Call somebody a liar and a cheat, you will get ur butt handed to you on a silver platter, unless you do it venting ur frustrations away on the internet. If you consider omitting info from an application that's fundamentally flawed as lying and cheating, well, that's you. I can racket up the morality play and utilising psychobabble paint Gandhi as a trouble-makin' agitator. Same way that you and others are playing with words, so can I(one man's freedom fighter......) You're obviously comfortable with the status quo and following rules(biased or not, flawed or not, unjust or not). Well, I don't do status quo. You do you, I do me. Just don't insult people when it serves no purpose but to be insulting.

While it has little to do with our discussion, look up the concept of civil disobediance/resistance.

Thanks tho for the advice. I promise you that come 3 years(thats the plan), if I'm still breathing and well, I will honestly tell you all of my progress(or regression)

No one is telling you to give in to anything, you asked for opinions and we gave them, sometimes you do not get what you want.

But we are trying to help you, we cannot make you accept the help but we can hope that in some way you think about this, this is not about control, in fact there is no such thing as true freedom either, the only freedom we have from rules and society is the freedom of our mind. In that light you can think and do as you please but as the philosophers who you mentioned would say you must be true to your self and fight the urge to give in to your id, the id wants and doesn't care how it gets it, don't give into that and walk a higher path, your path but a higher path. The path least taken, the path that is not the norm, hard work is ahead and if you are truthful to your self and others then you may just find yourself where you want to be.

This is not crap this is how I live my life, I do not lie, I do not cheat, I live truth as much as I can and my soul thrives in it.

SO this is my take, my opinion. I hope you find worth in choosing the enlightened path, the one of truth and honesty. Becoming a Doctor to me is spiritual in a way. I would hate to mess it up with lies.....................

 

[Gametime]

^^ No, Thank you, spicemanna, Thank you. You don't know how much your words resonated inside me. A part of me detests the 'system' and is willing to disregard all the rules it lays down, but I'm realising that by doing so, by bucking the system, I'll also be compromising on some strongly-held ironclad values. One thing I'd also like to add as cliched as it may sound: I'm not walking this path for personal benefit. My trip abroad re-ignited in me what service means and how a few good men and women can change the lives of thousands of people. That's the picture I have in mind when I'm contemplating what to do about those pesky career-ending-before-it-even-started grades.

Much thanks. I hope I can reach an honourable solution to my problem.

Thank you too, oldpro. You remind me of Mr.Miyagi from Karate Kid

 

[RockShox]

Touché to all of the good posts above and now I take the kid gloves off…

Do you honestly think that somehow you deserve to receive the same opportunities and benefits as someone who did not lie on their application? Did you really expect to start a post that asks about the ability of AMCAS to discover your deceit and people would not be sickened and just plain pissed off about it? Telling the truth is "bureaucratic red-tape"?

You really do not at this moment deserve to be included in a group of people who have entered the House of Medicine through a legitimate door. You have already lied to your current academic institution thus "stealing" a space for some other more deserving soul who now has to wait a year because the spot was taken by fraud.

I don't give a dang what your life story is, no trauma in anyone’s past can justify stealing opportunity from someone else. This is not Lord of the Flies. I know this type of person; the one that says "well it is not right to do in general but... my personal survival trumps all else as the ultimate good." I think I speak for many in saying that I would never want to work with someone like that in medicine ever; Someone who, when the **** hits the fan, thinks of themselves first, no matter the consequences to other people.

This behavior will not stop when you get in medical school, you will continue to cheat, or circumvent by subterfuge, until finally it kills someone, and even then you will do what you can to distract and distance your name from it perhaps not even admitting your deceit when someone else's ass is unjustly on the line for what you did (or failed to do).

Sorry bud, if you cannot even fill out the AMCAS application without lying medicine most certainly does not need you. And I cannot tolerate someone that tries to steal a spot in med school from another applicant who presented themselves with integrity.

Go with what others above have told you and start choosing another path…beginning with the college you now attend.

Oh and BTW...by-in-large the people in medicine are intellegent and trained to seperate truth from bull...trying to couch your plans in some sort of "I saw the image of the Jesus in my soup" and now I must get in and rid the world of the evil dominion of AMCAS rules stinks so bad I can smell it through my keyboard. The AMCAS rules are there for a reason and those of us in medicine know why that is.

 

[Gametime]

^ You know, right about now is the perfect time to borrow Vice President Cheny's memorable instruction to Senator Patrick Leahy But let's try and stay on track now shall we. I could answer the false assertions you make point-by-point, but there's no point to it. So, um, thanks for using your 2nd post since Nov 2006 to vent on how I would kill patients to save my own a$$(nicely done). As in Stoolie's case, Gametime detects much bitterness.

Easy now.

 

[spicedmanna]

^^ No, Thank you, spicemanna, Thank you. You don't know how much your words resonated inside me. A part of me detests the 'system' and is willing to disregard all the rules it lays down, but I'm realising that by doing so, by bucking the system, I'll also be compromising on some strongly-held ironclad values. One thing I'd also like to add as cliched as it may sound: I'm not walking this path for personal benefit. My trip abroad re-ignited in me what service means and how a few good men and women can change the lives of thousands of people. That's the picture I have in mind when I'm contemplating what to do about those pesky career-ending-before-it-even-started grades.

Much thanks. I hope I can reach an honourable solution to my problem.

Thank you too, oldpro. You remind me of Mr.Miyagi from Karate Kid

You're welcome. Glad to be of service. Make us and yourself proud, and let us know how things go.

 

[tkim]

This thread has become really a probing of how far one can lie on the AMCAS application to increase the chances of admission and what, if any, verification processes exist and how to circumvent them.

Bottom line - you take your own chances by omitting attendance info and your medical degree can be revoked at any time if they find out you lied. Take your chances and accept the consequences whatever they may be.

I'm closing this thread, and further threads in this spirit will be closed immediately.