canadians

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Why UoT? Well a few reasons really. 3 of my best friends up and moved to Toronto on me for one. I've been out there a few times to visit them and I really love the city, so many different cultures all in one place. I think I'd like to do my residency in Toronto and live there actually.

But the main reason is I've heard it is the best school in Canada... am I wrong? I heard it was harder to get into than Harvard tho so I dunno what my chances are... course I heard this from the same ninny that told me UoT gave preference to Ontario students which turned out to be false. If anyone knows the stats of anyone who has interviewed at UoT I'd love to hear it.

--Dave
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by brandonite:
•Hey, we have a good summer! 😀 And it really isn't that cold once you get used to it... :wink: •••••Yeah, prairies !

Do you live in Regina?
 
Hey, Legi - I'm from Brandon, Manitoba. Hence, the name. Regina is about 6 hours away.

As for UofT... I have heard a lot of bad stories about the student body. I applied all over the US, and just got back from an interview at Duke, and I didn't bother applying to Toronto. It may generally be thought of as the top school in Canada (although McGill and UBC might have something to say about that!), but suffering through four years there isn't my idea of fun. It definitely isn't harder to get into than Harvard. It might rank somewhere with the top 10 US schools, but it's hard to tell. Also, they make their decisions based almost entirely on GPA. I think the average last year was 3.87, and that's on the OMSAS scale, which means that an A- is 3.7, an A is 3.9, and only an A+ is a 4.0. So, if you want to have a shot at Toronto, you need to have all A's and A+'s, with very few A-'s, and almost nothing less than an A-.

Don't get too worked up about Toronto! I think Queens is just about as good a school in Ontario, and I don't think Toronto is appreciably better than any other school in Canada. The class size is 200, which means you don't get to know the people you study with, cliques develop, and the atmosphere fosters an incredible amount of competitiveness. I would take Manitoba any day over Toronto.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Dave:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by warpath:
•Canadian here.
About chance of getting into a school in the States? I think the chances are good for Canadians (maybe even better than Canada). But you I think you'll be limited to private schools. I've got 3 interveiws and one acceptance so far (Wash U). The only 'problem' I had at Wash U was that I had to explain the 3 yr, BSc to them.

BC girl, why did I apply to American schools? I applied to 5 American schools and 6 Canadian Schools (5 in ontario). So far, I have 3 interveiws (1 acceptance) and 1 rejection in the States, and 4 rejections (all pre-interveiw) and no interveiw invites yet from Canadian schools. I think it's a good thing I applied to both. 😀 •••••Oh man you're scaring me... I don't want to go to school in the US... What province are you from? I hear it is much harder for us to get into med schools outside our own province. I actually plan on applying to all med schools in Canada, but I hadnt planned on applying in the states at all... but now you're scaring me into reconsidering it.

Someone told me if you arent from Ontario it is harder to get into University of Toronto than it is to get into harvard, any truth to this? UoT is my first choice, but i imagine it is first choice of most Canadians applying. Does anyone know of any out of provice people that got into UT? Do you know what their stats were? What are your stats btw warpath? They must be good for you to be doing so well with the US schools.

--Dave•••••I'm from Ontario. Actually, most Ontario schools (except Ottawa) don't discriminate against out of province applicants.
As for my stats:

I'm in 3rd year.
AMCAS GPA: 3.84
OMSAS GPA: 3.81
MCAT: 9(VR) 12(PS) 14(BS) M(WS)

I think what messed me up the most about the Canadian schools is my Writing Sample score. For Mac, it was their new rule that you should have at least 20 (half-semester) courses above level 1 by August of your matriculation year. I barely made Ottawa's GPA requirement, but got nailed on my Autobiographical sketch. I say, Apply to both American and Canadian Schools. Also, I think you have a better chance at an American school than as an Out-of-province applicant in Canada.
 
It is hard to say. A friend of mine got into Toronto MD/PhD and did not get into any top 10 US med she applied to.

Brandonite, how did you like Duke?
 
Well, it's possible if someone would have a very high GPA, but poor MCATs, that getting into Toronto would be much easier than getting into a top 10 US school.

I really liked Duke. I'm trying not to get ahead of myself - regarding what I would do if I do happen to get in. I still haven't gotten my mind around the thought of leaving Canada. It's not something I want to do. And the amount of money I would need to borrow is insane.

Oh well. I'll just wait until I get an acceptance before I start to really think seriously about that decision...
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Dave:
•But the main reason is I've heard it is the best school in Canada... am I wrong? I heard it was harder to get into than Harvard tho so I dunno what my chances are... course I heard this from the same ninny that told me UoT gave preference to Ontario students which turned out to be false. If anyone knows the stats of anyone who has interviewed at UoT I'd love to hear it.

--Dave•••••First off, it's without a doubt harder (and quite a bit, I would say) to get into Harvard. As for stats for U of T, you should at least have a GPA in the 3.8's on the OMSAS scale if you're an undergrad applicant. The MCAT requirements aren't strict at all (just 8's on each section plus N in writing).

I don't know how you define "best". In terms of money for research I guess it would be tops in Canada, but I've also heard my fair share of stories about some of the students there. However, as the class is so big (which could also be bad), there are definitely some nice people there as well, plus the chances increase that you'll find a group of people who share the same interests, study habits etc. as you do. I know it's absolutely my first choice at this point, but a large part of that is because I'm from the Toronto area. Best of luck.
 
Hey warpath, I sent you a private message...

BTW, I received a McMaster rejection today. Not disqualified due to courses or anything, they just didn't like my answers to those damned 15 questions they make you do. Ah well.
 
Thanks for the info all, very helpful. You've heard bad things about the student body at UofT? What've you heard? c'mon, share the gossip :0

--Dave
 
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•••quote:•••Originally posted by Dave:
•Thanks for the info all, very helpful. You've heard bad things about the student body at UofT? What've you heard? c'mon, share the gossip :0

--Dave•••••Just the typical competitive, cliquish stuff. But keep in mind, such "gunners" exist at many top med schools, though admittedly U of T might be worse (I can't say for sure as I haven't attended U of T meds, nor any other med school!). Don't expect everyone at McGill, UBC, Queen's, Western etc. to be a bunch of Mother Teresas either. In fact, I know of similar "stories" regarding schools like Queen's and Western as well.

I still think that regardless of this, the class size is such that you will find a group of people who you get along very well with. Toronto's an awesome, diverse city (as you said before), the school is very good, and the teaching hospitals are amazing too. Don't turn it down simply because of a few rumors you heard. Rather, if you get an interview there, try to get in touch with as many med students as possible and find out their opinions. Some will sugar coat things and others might criticize a bit too harshly, but I'm sure there are a few that will be able to give you enough of an idea of how things "really" are. Have you applied anywhere yet?
 
For all Canadians.... if you were accepted to both a US and a Canadian school and money is not an issue.... which one would you go to and why ?..

Thanks.. Eh !
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by kornphan:
•For all Canadians.... if you were accepted to both a US and a Canadian school and money is not an issue.... which one would you go to and why ?..

Thanks.. Eh !•••••Of course US school.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by kornphan:
•For all Canadians.... if you were accepted to both a US and a Canadian school and money is not an issue.... which one would you go to and why ?..

Thanks.. Eh !•••••Depends. For Wash U, I'll turn down any Canadian School (that is if money wasn't an issue).
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by kornphan:
•For all Canadians.... if you were accepted to both a US and a Canadian school and money is not an issue.... which one would you go to and why ?..

Thanks.. Eh !•••••Depends on which schools we are talking about. Even if I could afford it (and I can't!), if I'm going to be shelling out twice as much money to go to the States vs. staying here, it would only be for something like Duke, Harvard, WashU, etc.
 
I have my UBC interviews this week. Good luck BCgirl, I'm in Vancouver now, and I know you said on an earlier post that you'd be heading out here soon. On a side note, have you guys heard of this "joke"

C-Eh!-N-Eh!-D-Eh!

i thought it was cute 😛
 
Hi everyone!
I just wanted to mention that I've heard that if you attend an American med school, you can still participate in the first round Canadian match system for residencies up here, as long as you're a Canadian citizen. I think it's only people who are American citizens who must wait until the second round. Anyone heard anything about this?

Good luck on your interviews at UBC! I'm originally from Vancouver, and the med school's got a great reputation there! Plus, the entire school of UBC is such a great place to hang out at--I'm sure you'd enjoy it if you choose to end up there! 🙂
 
If money were no object, I'd take Duke or Stanford above any school in Canada. Unfortunately, money is very much an object. 🙁

I've just heard stories about cliques developing within the med school at Toronto, whole groups of people who don't get along with each other, etc... I think the class size is too large to install any sense of comraderie - too much like undergrad premed, if you ask me.
 
I would take any top 50 US schools over any Canadian schools. (except for McGill).
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by solie:
•Hi everyone!
I just wanted to mention that I've heard that if you attend an American med school, you can still participate in the first round Canadian match system for residencies up here, as long as you're a Canadian citizen. I think it's only people who are American citizens who must wait until the second round. Anyone heard anything about this?

•••••Yes, I actually emailed CaRMS and they said that as long as it's a LCME accredited school, you can enter the first round. They didn't really say anything about Canadian or US citizens. All they said was that some provinces require Canadian Citizenship or Immigrant status to apply for government-sponsored programs.
 
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On a side note, I just got into Jefferson. Go Canadians!
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by warpath:
•On a side note, I just got into Jefferson. Go Canadians!•••••Congratulations !!
 
Are you sure? it was under my impression that no one who graduates from a non-canadian school can get a canadian residency.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by moo:
•Are you sure? it was under my impression that no one who graduates from a non-canadian school can get a canadian residency.•••••who would really want to work in Canada after getting MD from the US?

I have never known any doctors in Canada who got their MDs in the US.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Legi:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by moo:
•Are you sure? it was under my impression that no one who graduates from a non-canadian school can get a canadian residency.•••••who would really want to work in Canada after getting MD from the US?

I have never known any doctors in Canada who got their MDs in the US.•••••No, I probably wouldn't come back... but I do know of a psychiatrist that I worked with who graduated from Wake Forest.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Legi:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by moo:
•Are you sure? it was under my impression that no one who graduates from a non-canadian school can get a canadian residency.•••••who would really want to work in Canada after getting MD from the US?

I have never known any doctors in Canada who got their MDs in the US.•••••I would come back. My family is in Canada, and my gf will probably end up at a med school in Canada. And I do like it up here, as crazy as that sounds... I'd just go down to the US for the experience of going to an amazing school like Duke or Stanford, for the research opportunities, and the chance to do something different with my life!

Thanks, to that person who emailed CaRMS. Believe it or not, that was a serious impediment to my going to the US for school.

Now, I just have to find $200,000... :wink: Oh, and get an acceptance. :wink:
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Legi:
•I would take any top 50 US schools over any Canadian schools. (except for McGill).•••••A word to the wise. Just because a school is prestigous and has lots of research money, it doesn't guarantee the quality of its graduates. While U of Sask has very little research funding and isn't a very "prestigous" school, its students are some of the most competent and well-trained students that I have seen. I'd have to say that many Canadian physicians do not trust the training in the US. The licensing exams are easier, the training is more varied in terms of quality and the specialty board exams are much easier. One examiner for the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada told me that there is almost a 100% fail rate for US pediatric residents who take their fellowship exam in Canada. If I was to choose a school (or a residency) I wouldn't look at the amount of research done or the rankings by US News. I would look at the quality and ability of the graduates.
 
I've heard that from a number of people - the Canadian boards are supposedly much harder than the USMLE's.

I have every confidence I could learn to be a great doctor at Manitoba. I just dont think it offers as many opportunities as a top US school...

And, I don't want to live in Winnipeg. :wink:
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Ponyboy:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by Legi:
•I would take any top 50 US schools over any Canadian schools. (except for McGill).•••••A word to the wise. Just because a school is prestigous and has lots of research money, it doesn't guarantee the quality of its graduates. While U of Sask has very little research funding and isn't a very "prestigous" school, its students are some of the most competent and well-trained students that I have seen. I'd have to say that many Canadian physicians do not trust the training in the US. The licensing exams are easier, the training is more varied in terms of quality and the specialty board exams are much easier. One examiner for the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada told me that there is almost a 100% fail rate for US pediatric residents who take their fellowship exam in Canada. If I was to choose a school (or a residency) I wouldn't look at the amount of research done or the rankings by US News. I would look at the quality and ability of the graduates.•••••I know it is just me who doesn't want to go to any Canadian med school. To me, research is very important.
Also, I am from Victoria, BC where there is no med school near by (please don't mention UBC since I hate it so much. No offence to anyone)so I would be living away from my family anyways...

I kinda like UT in many ways (research, hospitals, etc.) but I don't think I can live in Toronto for 4 years. (also, I don't think I can get into UT 😀
 
Perhaps the clinical training at Canadian schools may be better BUT gaining admission into a Canadian school is probably tougher than getting into a top 10 US school. (of course, this depends on where you live...) Thus, for people who have no choice, but want to be a physician, going to the US seems to be the only viable option (unless you want to go to the caribbean).
 
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Hey, anybody see the West Wing? Donna's from Manitoba! 😀

Anyway, I think that getting into a top 10 school is tougher than getting into a Canadian school. It's just that most of us here aren't really ideally suited for UofT - that is, we don't have ridiculously high GPA's. But based on the numbers, I think it's statistically harder...
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by moo:
•Perhaps the clinical training at Canadian schools may be better BUT gaining admission into a Canadian school is probably tougher than getting into a top 10 US school. (of course, this depends on where you live...) Thus, for people who have no choice, but want to be a physician, going to the US seems to be the only viable option (unless you want to go to the caribbean).•••••I think overall, getting into most top 10 American schools is harder than getting into a given Canadian school unless you're applying as an out of province applicant, in which case it would be the other way around (for example, only 5 spots for non-Quebec Canadians at McGill? Ouch! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> ).

At schools here (except for Mac, with its ridiculous admissions policies), it's pretty predictable. If you meet Queen's or Western's GPA and MCAT cutoffs, you're guaranteed an interview. If you have a 3.9+ OMSAS GPA, you're in very good shape for (although not guaranteed) U of T and Ottawa. And this is Ontario, which is already the hardest province in which to gain admission into medical school. It'll be even easier elsewhere if you're applying as an in-province applicant. Whereas at a place like Harvard, they probably get like 5000 applications, tons of which have 3.9+ GPAs and 35 MCATs... so even with high stats you can't realistically bank on an interview.
 
I dunno, VC15. I interviewed at Duke, Northwestern, and Columbia, and have an acceptance at MCW (granted not top 10) (plus interviewed at four other US schools) but I was rejected from my home school, UBC without interview...
 
Wow, that's an impressive set of schools. I hope you hear some good news from Duke this week or next (same with you, brandonite). 🙂 I don't know too much about UBC since I've never applied there, but their acceptance stats for BC residents looked quite good (20% or so). Maybe they didn't consider whatever Duke, Columbia, etc. liked about you? Plus, they've been admitting like 65-70% females since the new dean got appointed...

Hey, that was my 100th post! And it "only" took me a year and half! :clap:
 
moo??? are you serious???
UBC interviews are fairly easy to get compared to US schools IMHO. You're really doing well to get those top school interviews.
 
I think it's more that Canadian schools and US schools are looking for different things... For example, you're more than competitive at any US school with a 3.7 GPA, provided you have decent MCATs. Also, I think research and extracirrics are more important in US schools. It seems like all most Canadian schools care about is your GPA...

I only applied to four US schools, and so far I've got one rejection, one interview, and I'm still waiting to hear from two about interviews. But I'm still not sure what I would do even if I got into Duke. Staying at Manitoba, close to home, paying almost nothing in tuition, is a pretty attractive option. And, I've got some close friends applying to Manitoba as well... But, Duke is Duke. 🙂
 
I think it also depends on the geographical location of the school... I mean, western canadian schools tend to be more liberal (esp. UBC), so they look for the community service type person and less on grades, while eastern schools are more into the grades/MCAT scores. I was very bitter when I got my rejection letter, especially since I was basically told that I sucked (they "ranked" me in the 8th percentile for my non-academic score). I took this to heart, because I had done a lot of ECs... and I know that US schools value ECs too, just not as much as UBC I guess. 😕 Admittedly, I never took part in the olympics... (sarcasm) I will never know the reason they rejected me but I am very glad I applied to US schools... I know of someone who applied to UBC three years in a row and got rejected each time... she now works at a bank. I didn't want to be that person, so I applied to US schools and it has worked out for me...
 
I forgot to mention that my GPA is not 4.0, nor anywhere near that... I consider myself an avg applicant... that's why I didn't apply to Ontario schools, I'd get my ass whooped.
 
I don't mean to start a US vs Canada discussion here, but why would all the US graduates who write the Canadian pediatric exam FAIL? Maybe it's because Canadian graduates have overall higher academic skills than US graduates. I mean, compare the Canadian mean entering GPA's to the mean GPA's of US med schools (excluding those few awesome schools like JH and Columbia). Like the mean GPA of 3.84 that U of T students have <img border="0" alt="[Wowie]" title="" src="graemlins/wowie.gif" /> (AND an A+ is only worth 4!). So maybe Candian graduates are better at test taking etc. simply because they've already been selected for that skill. This DOES NOT mean that they make better physicians, just that their mean academic abilities are higher.

And another point. Maybe the reason that Canadian schools emphasize academics a lot more than EC's here is that the vast majority of Canadian students work during their summers because they have to finance their own education (which also explains why our summer vacations are tailored to be 4 months long). In the US, and I'm not absolutely positive about this, it is the parents that pay for university in most cases. please correct me if I'm wrong here 😀
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by bad_hombre:
•I don't mean to start a US vs Canada discussion here, but why would all the US graduates who write the Canadian pediatric exam FAIL? Maybe it's because Canadian graduates have overall higher academic skills than US graduates. I mean, compare the Canadian mean entering GPA's to the mean GPA's of US med schools (excluding those few awesome schools like JH and Columbia). Like the mean GPA of 3.84 that U of T students have <img border="0" alt="[Wowie]" title="" src="graemlins/wowie.gif" /> (AND an A+ is only worth 4!). So maybe Candian graduates are better at test taking etc. simply because they've already been selected for that skill. This DOES NOT mean that they make better physicians, just that their mean academic abilities are higher.•••••I don't think they "all" fail. If the failure rate is greater, I would think it's just because of differences in what's taught. In the same way, I'd assume that American students are more prepared for the USMLE than we are, because their curriculums are more geared towards that. As for average academic abilities being different between the two countries, I don't buy that either. It's possible that the variation could be much larger (since they're 10 times as big as us), but that's about it.

•••quote:••••
And another point. Maybe the reason that Canadian schools emphasize academics a lot more than EC's here is that the vast majority of Canadian students work during their summers because they have to finance their own education (which also explains why our summer vacations are tailored to be 4 months long). In the US, and I'm not absolutely positive about this, it is the parents that pay for university in most cases. please correct me if I'm wrong here 😀 •••••No offence, but that's a HORRIBLE assumption to make. Where are you getting this from? On average, Americans may be well more off, but again, there's probably more variation. Combine that with some of the super-high tuitions charged by some of the private schools, which cost like 5X as much as anything here, and you're looking at lots of loans... Sorry to any Americans offended by that guy's post. Ugh. 🙄
 
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whoa buddy, take it easy there. so i've made some assumptions, and they may not necessarily be right. damn, i'm sure you are twenty times smarter than me. sorry. did i really disgust you that much? did you go off and puke somewhere from your disgust? peace 😀 love <img border="0" alt="[Lovey]" title="" src="graemlins/lovey.gif" /> and happiness <img border="0" alt="[Lovey]" title="" src="graemlins/lovey.gif" /> dude, this is a learning process for all of us

looking back, i did make a pretty bad assumption there about canadians being smarter, and i really apologize for that. i was just trying to explain the 100% failure rate mentioned above, and that was the first thing that came to my mind. sorry. okay? your explanation does make sense. good for you. it doesn't mean it's the only reason though. how many people here in canada get into meds or dents with 3.3-3.4 gpa's???

honestly, in state tuition in the states is comparable to tuition here in canada (albeit slightly higher). we DON'T have any need based financial aid here other than loans, which have to be paid back anyway. i went to an american high school, and all of my friends were getting their way payed by their parents. those that got into private schools like harvard and brown got substantial need-based scholarships. now, the majority of my friends here in canada are paying for their own post-secondary education, with parents helping out only somewhat with their living expenses. my american friends have a lot more time on their hands to do ec's because their school year is longer (hence somewhat lighter workload in some cases). my canadian friends are pretty busy during the whole year, either working or studying without much time for ec's. this MAY be a reason. i don't think i said it was THE reason for the different selection methods, although i'm sorry if i did. 😎
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by VC15:
[QB]As for average academic abilities being different between the two countries, I don't buy that either. It's possible that the variation could be much larger (since they're 10 times as big as us), but that's about it. QB]••••no. variation may be larger because they have more med schools per applicant, not because populations or number of med schools are larger. i'm sure if you take the average GPA of med students from ontario it'll be higher than the average GPA of med students from the states. wait, i'm not sure. but i'm almost sure
 
I think bad hombre is right about the average GPA for Ontario schools. In general, Canadian schools are more traditional, from curriculum to admissions policies. They tend to value grades more than do American schools. They tend to care less about humanities courses and may care less about ECs.
Also, to correct an eariler post, at toronto, an A+ is, I believe, a 4.3. But they do scale down all A's to 3.9s if you come from a school that doesn't have A+'s.
In terms of test taking, Canadian medical schools emphasize this a lot more during med school, and the Canadian liscencing exam is more difficult than the USMLEs( two friends of mine took both exams last year and thats what they said). Also, since Canadian med schools select more for high GPAs and MCAT in admissions, those people will naturally do better on future standardized tests.
 
I have heard from a pile of people who've taken both the Royal College and the USMLE's, and the Royal College is very much more difficult. I think that might be the big thing - preparing for a far more difficult test will inevitably make you do better on the easier one. Combine that with the fact that it is much harder to get into a Canadian med school than a US med school (I heard that the ratio of med students to people in Canada is second last in the world, only to Algeria), so only the very best will manage to get in, so that definitely throws the average up.

This is coming from a guy with a decent GPA but really strong MCATs, but I think that Canadian schools should rely more on the MCAT. I realize that GPA is a measure of performance over time, but it is very possible to do an easy program for undergrad, always take the easy courses, and come out with a great GPA. It just isn't a standard measure... That's one way that I think Canadian schools are really backwards.

That and there needs to be more schools letting in more applicant. There's no wonder there's a physician shortage when we aren't training many doctors, and the ones we are training can get twice as much money in the US for less work.

I just get really frustrated with the system up here all the time. I've watched family members come close to death in our hospitals because there wasn't any doctors around to look after them, or because they needed an expensive test that the hospital wouldn't pay for, or some stupid reason like that. That's why going to the US is so attractive. I realize you have to put up with HMO's, and the tuition is 10x as much as Manitoba, but there are days when those seem like minor concerns...
 
An A+ is a 4.0 here at U of Toronto undergrad. But so is an A. The 4.3 system was scrapped a few years ago. U of T's med school uses the OMSAS scale for admissions purposes. The OMSAS scale is similar, but an A+ is a 4.0 and an A is a 3.9.
 
The theory about Canadian med students being better test takers is a valid one. However, there are other reasons. In Canada, an Royal College program is considered a specialist program while in the US, many programs (Internal, Peds,) are considered primary care specialties. In other words, a general pediatrician in Canada is a specialist in pediatric diseases of all sorts and complexities. In the US, a general pediatrician is a primary care physician for children. As such, it is demanded that Canadian consultant pediatricians know more than a primary care pediatrician in the US.

Outside of the demands of fellowship exams, I think that as a whole, Canadian programs are of higher academic quality than US programs. The emphasis is more on learning, as opposed to service when compared to the US programs. This emphasis leads to a broader knowledge base and abilities.

Finally, I think that the larger responsibility that students recieve during medical school allows them to have greater responsibility when they become residents. Canadian students generally have more independence and responsibility than US students. Thus, when they are residents, they are ready for more complex problems as compared to their US counterparts.
 
]I don't mean to offend you in anyway, but your post doesn't seem to have any bases.
First of all, how can you conclude that Canadian students are ready for more complex problems compared to US residents unless you have been residents in both countries?

Furthermore, I don't understand how you have come to the conclusion that Canadian programs are of higher academic quality than US programs. Even if it is true, I don't understand how having higher academic quality directly correlates with producing better physicians. Are we talking about smarter doctors or better doctors as a whole?
I personally do not like how Canadian schools put emphasis solely on academics.

Additionally, that all US doctors fail Canadian fellowship exams seems nonsense to me.
What percentage of US doctors actually take those exams? In my opinion, most US citizens who decide to take Canadian exams are the ones who are less qualifed to obtain competitive fellowships in the US.

Also, I cannot believe that US people actually fail Canadian board exams. Please provide a link or any kind of evidence.
 
Legi -

It's impossible to generalize, but I do tend to think that on average, Canadian programs are superior to US programs. I have a friend whose father did his MD in the US. He did some postgraduate med training in Canada. Both of his daughters are premeds, and he is strongly encouraging them to stay in Canada, because he believes there is a better quality of education up here. I've heard that from other students. There are less med students to go around, and the ones that are around are given more responsibility, both during clerkship and residency. I do know that Canadian med students are highly prized come residency time... I know someone who did his MD at the University of Manitoba and went on to do his residency at Mass General (Harvard).

Top 20 schools, and certainly top 10 schools, in the US might be a different story. And they certainly do help when it comes to research and academic research, because of their amazing reputations. I don't think you could get a match in a super-competitive specialty coming from Canada just because of that problem...

But given a choice between any school in the US outside the top 20 and any school in Canada, I would pick the school in Canada. Easily.

Strange how I've become the defender of medical education in Canada... :wink:
 
Canadian students are given more indepedence and responsibility earlier than their US counterparts. I've seen differences between my training and that of several of my friends in the US. Additionally, I've seen students in other Canadian schools who are given more responsibility and independence than at my school. You can almost always tell which residents came from a school where they were given a lot of responsibility. When they start residency, they are already comfortable with managing simple problems and are ready to move onto harder, more complex issues. If you've already managed extreme DKA by yourself as a student, you will be comfortable doing so as a resident and will be able to worry about more challenging issues.

As for academic quality, if you look at the residency requirements for a Canadian residency and compare it with that of a US residency, you will find that the Canadian one is much more stringent, with a larger emphasis on learning. This is due to the fact that the Royal College has much stricter requirements for residency than the RRC in the US. If you take two equally matched physicians whose only difference lies in knowledge base, the more knowledgeable one will be a better doctor. If you know more about diseases and patients, you are more aware of common pitfalls in decision making and you can more appropriately manage patients.

Finally, the information about doctors failing their Royal College Fellowship exams (not to be confused with sub-specialty fellowship exams) came from a Royal College Examiner who had been doing this for many years. Who takes the Royal College exams? Anyone who wants to practice medicine in Canada (outside of Family Medicine). If you find it hard to believe that US doctors fail the exams, believe it. Incredulous as it sounds, the US doesn't have the most stringent licensure or certification standards in the world. The Canadian licensure exams (LMCC's) are harder than the USMLE's. The Canadian Fellowship exams are more difficult than the US Boards. However, the Canadian exams pale in comparison to the Australian and British College exams.
 
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