Career outlook for PhD/PsyD's

[singasongofjoy]

Would you say some specialties are more lucrative than others? I'm assuming neuro would be at the top of the list if so. I am particularly interested in specializing (or "niche-ing") in children/adolescents with ASD.

adolescents and adults with ASD is a good niche to be in- more folks getting interested, but still far fewer. The further you work your way up the lifespan the fewer folks you meet who focus on that, but a lot of our adults iwth ASD are approaching or have surpassed retirement age and tend to have aging related health concerns a bit earlier than the TD population. Just throwing that out there. Also CBT, DBT, etc adapted for folks on the spectrum is sought after in my area. As ABA noted, therapy isn't the most lucrative- one reason I do primarily evals (related to productivity/revenue targets, etc- get a chunk of hours at once in a day)

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[deleted760483]

See, this has to be counting part time psychologists or something. There's no way that 5% of full time licensed clinical psychologists make under 40k a year. It almost looks like it included pre and post doctoral interns.

 

[WisNeuro]

See, this has to be counting part time psychologists or something. There's no way that 5% of full time licensed clinical psychologists make under 40k a year. It almost looks like it included pre and post doctoral interns.

It's from the NSCG data. It's supposed to be full-time, licensed individuals. Wouldn't be surprising to see that figure. Some states allow masters to be licensed as "psychologists," so they could definitely be part of that. Also, PP people who are not great at business can definitely be in that boat. If anything, the 5% is probably low.

 

[deleted760483]

It's from the NSCG data. It's supposed to be full-time, licensed individuals. Wouldn't be surprising to see that figure. Some states allow masters to be licensed as "psychologists," so they could definitely be part of that. Also, PP people who are not great at business can definitely be in that boat. If anything, the 5% is probably low.

How bad would you have to be at business to make that little? I made about 38k as an unlicensed contractor for a private practice, seeing people who could only pay like $40 a session out of pocket.

 

[WisNeuro]

How bad would you have to be at business to make that little? I made about 38k as an unlicensed contractor for a private practice, seeing people who could only pay like $40 a session out of pocket.

Plenty of people are not good at reducing overhead, strategic locations, etc.

 

[Peacemaker36]

I would love to know the answer to this question. Are there really psychologists who hang a shingle and make themselves available to schedule clients for full-time hours, and yet make that little? Is this only a problem for people who choose to set up shop, say, in rural North Dakota?

 

[GradStudent2020]

It's from the NSCG data. It's supposed to be full-time, licensed individuals. Wouldn't be surprising to see that figure. Some states allow masters to be licensed as "psychologists," so they could definitely be part of that. Also, PP people who are not great at business can definitely be in that boat. If anything, the 5% is probably low.

I make over that part-time at the Master’s level, with an independent practice license. At a site that arguably does not offer competitive pay or benefits. I don’t know what you would be doing full-time in the field to make that little at the psychologist level.

 

[WisNeuro]

I make over that part-time at the Master’s level, with an independent practice license. At a site that arguably does not offer competitive pay or benefits. I don’t know what you would be doing full-time in the field to make that little at the psychologist level.

I am in a state that has some masters level people grandfathered in as licensed "psychologists" and many are hovering around that 40k mark. These people are definitely out there. As the survey indicates, it's a clear minority of the sample, but it's not hard to understand why that tail is there.

 

[ClinicalABA]

See, this has to be counting part time psychologists or something. There's no way that 5% of full time licensed clinical psychologists make under 40k a year. It almost looks like it included pre and post doctoral interns.

I was quoted a salary in that range (sub 40K) by 2 different clinics (CMHCs) about 5-6 years ago. Needless to say, I did not take the job, nor did i negotiate, as that was way too low a starting point. My impression at the time was that salary for generalists in outpatient MH clinics was in the 50k range, so I'm not too surprised by this data. If all you can offer is the same as someone with a masters level credential, than you can only command master's level salary.

 

[Peacemaker36]

I thought we were talking about private practice clinicians.

 

[WisNeuro]

I thought we were talking about private practice clinicians.

The salary survey was for all individuals, PP or institutional.

 

[LadyHalcyon]

Cmhc salaries in my area are around 50k. I'm working part time now as an independent contractor 3.5 days a week and make more than 40. I have no idea why anyone would even want to work at a CMHC. Productivity is constantly tracked and clinicians have WAY too many clients. I guess maybe because they provide health insurance and other benefits?

 

[WisNeuro]

Cmhc salaries in my area are around 50k. I'm working part time now as an independent contractor 3.5 days a week and make more than 40. I have no idea why anyone would even want to work at a CMHC. Productivity is constantly tracked and clinicians have WAY too many clients. I guess maybe because they provide health insurance and other benefits?

If you live in a saturated area and have a garbage diploma mill degree, I imagine you may take whatever you can get. These jobs do get filled.

 

[LadyHalcyon]

If you live in a saturated area and have a garbage diploma mill degree, I imagine you may take whatever you can get. These jobs do get filled.

I suppose so. The clinicans I know that work there aren't usually people I would classify as especially competent. That being said, I'm referencing about a N of 5.....

 

[LadyHalcyon]

When in doubt:

"CRNAs are some of the highest paid RNs in the field. Depending on the work setting and state where CRNAs are employed, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) noted that in 2016, CRNAs made between $105,400 to $242,000, with the average annual salary being approximately $157,000.
In comparison, the average annual salary for an RN in 2016 was $72,180, approximately half the earning potential of CRNAs."


I love what I do but reading things like this kinda stings.

 

[GradStudent2020]

When in doubt:

"CRNAs are some of the highest paid RNs in the field. Depending on the work setting and state where CRNAs are employed, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) noted that in 2016, CRNAs made between $105,400 to $242,000, with the average annual salary being approximately $157,000.
In comparison, the average annual salary for an RN in 2016 was $72,180, approximately half the earning potential of CRNAs."


I love what I do but reading things like this kinda stings.

How long is the CRNA training? 2-3 years post-Bachelors?

 

[LadyHalcyon]

How long is the CRNA training? 2-3 years post-Bachelors?

4 years BSN. Then one year of working in an acute unit. Then two to three years of CRNA school. About 6 to 7 years start to finish.


Edited to provide more accurate info:

"CRNAs are considered Advanced Practice Registered Nurses (APRNs). As such, one must first be an RN with licensure in at least one state and possess a Bachelor’s of Science in Nursing (BSN) degree (or another appropriate baccalaureate degree).
Some Nurse Anesthesia programs require a minimum of one year of acute care experience, preferably in an intensive care unit or emergency room.

CRNAs must successfully complete an accredited nurse anesthesia educational program, which can take 2-4 years, depending on the intensity of the program. There are approximately 113 accredited nurse anesthesia programs in the US, with approximately 2,200 active clinical training sites."

 

[ClinicalABA]

Cmhc salaries in my area are around 50k. I'm working part time now as an independent contractor 3.5 days a week and make more than 40. I have no idea why anyone would even want to work at a CMHC. Productivity is constantly tracked and clinicians have WAY too many clients. I guess maybe because they provide health insurance and other benefits?

I’ve reviewed applications from licensed psychologist with bare minimum training and experience, crappy job histories (e.g., new job every year or so), and nothing resembling a focused specialty. We’re not hiring them, and any reputable places I know aren’t hiring them. They have to work somewhere, so maybe they’re ending up in these low-pay jobs?

 

[LadyHalcyon]

That's unfortunate because that population really needs good clinicians. And the pay should reflect that.

I’ve reviewed applications from licensed psychologist with bare minimum training and experience, crappy job histories (e.g., ne job every year or so for), and nothing resembling a focused specialty. We’re not hiring them, and any reputable places I know aren’t hiring them. They have to work somewhere, so maybe they’re ending up in these low-pay jobs?

 

[Sanman]

4 years BSN. Then one year of working in an acute unit. Then two to three years of CRNA school. About 6 to 7 years start to finish.


Edited to provide more accurate info:

"CRNAs are considered Advanced Practice Registered Nurses (APRNs). As such, one must first be an RN with licensure in at least one state and possess a Bachelor’s of Science in Nursing (BSN) degree (or another appropriate baccalaureate degree).
Some Nurse Anesthesia programs require a minimum of one year of acute care experience, preferably in an intensive care unit or emergency room.

CRNAs must successfully complete an accredited nurse anesthesia educational program, which can take 2-4 years, depending on the intensity of the program. There are approximately 113 accredited nurse anesthesia programs in the US, with approximately 2,200 active clinical training sites."

This is a bit apples and oranges. Check out how much a psych NP makes if want a comparison to a more similar skill set. 2017 AANP survey indicates it was about 120k. One of the reasons I point newbies in that direction.

 

[Sanman]

I’ve reviewed applications from licensed psychologist with bare minimum training and experience, crappy job histories (e.g., ne job every year or so for), and nothing resembling a focused specialty. We’re not hiring them, and any reputable places I know aren’t hiring them. They have to work somewhere, so maybe they’re ending up in these low-pay jobs?

Those with bad degrees, new people in PP without referrals that are not full, and those that are restricted in geography and need to take a poorly paying position. We had a licensed clinician here making in the 40k range due to a bad practice area with an owner that had a large practice and local monopoly.

The other reason for low salaries in PP may be those juking the system. 40k salary in a sole proprietorship is more a tax dodge than an representative salary.

 

[deleted760483]

Sometimes these salary surveys make me feel like my salary is ridiculous. But I live in the Midwest and apparently we are the highest paying region for psychologists. Is it just because we are under saturated? I live in a city of 131,000. According to our state licensing board there are a total of 14 active licensed psychologists in this city and I happen to know that at least 2 of them are full time faculty so not practicing.

 

[psych.meout]

Sometimes these salary surveys make me feel like my salary is ridiculous. But I live in the Midwest and apparently we are the highest paying region for psychologists. Is it just because we are under saturated? I live in a city of 131,000. According to our state licensing board there are a total of 14 active licensed psychologists in this city and I happen to know that at least 2 of them are full time faculty so not practicing.

What is the population of mid-level providers like in your city?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I view salary as an issue only if:

1. You live in a very saturated market, whether it be w midlevels or psychologists.

2. You want to work at a college counseling center. Those salaries are ridiculous, even at 9mon/yr. They seem to work okay as a second income if your spouse makes $$.

3. You have crushing loans.

4. You are a generalist and compete agaist midlevels AND other psychologists.

Otherwise...it’s very doable and someone with even a decent amount of biz sense should do fine.

ps. Don’t be a generalist. Even if you want to do 100% therapy, at least define a niche population and know it backwards and forward.

 

[Sanman]

I view salary as an issue only if:

1. You live in a very saturated market, whether it be w midlevels or psychologists.

2. You want to work at a college counseling center. Those salaries are ridiculous, even at 9mon/yr. They seem to work okay as a second income if your spouse makes $$.

3. You have crushing loans.

4. You are a generalist and compete agaist midlevels AND other psychologists.

Otherwise...it’s very doable and someone with even a decent amount of biz sense should do fine.

ps. Don’t be a generalist. Even if you want to do 100% therapy, at least define a niche population and know it backwards and forward.

I would add to this to make sure you are competitive in your specialty area. One anecdotal thing that I have noticed is that in geriatrics we hire a lot of child psych people that can't find a position or afford to start a private practice.

 

[Sanman]

Sometimes these salary surveys make me feel like my salary is ridiculous. But I live in the Midwest and apparently we are the highest paying region for psychologists. Is it just because we are under saturated? I live in a city of 131,000. According to our state licensing board there are a total of 14 active licensed psychologists in this city and I happen to know that at least 2 of them are full time faculty so not practicing.

The key to becoming wealthy:
1. Do what others can't or won't
2. Charge accordingly

 

[MAClinician]

I would add to this to make sure you are competitive in your specialty area. One anecdotal thing that I have noticed is that in geriatrics we hire a lot of child psych people that can't find a position or afford to start a private practice.

Well that’s the two extremes of the lifespan. Bet the child folks could help the geriatric clients who are raising their grandchildren.

 

[Meteora]

That’s a good start.

I’m seeing Robyn live in concert this week, coincidentally!

That is dope! I'm jelly. Have fun and I hope you intend on dancing hard!

 

[ClinicalABA]

Well that’s the two extremes of the lifespan. Bet the child folks could help the geriatric clients who are raising their grandchildren.

You joke, but I focused on behavioral geriatrics in grad school- did my dissertation in a nursing facility; student chair of Behavioral Geriatric SIG of AABT, etc. Now I work almost exclusively with toddlers. Many similarities in the work and training, even if not obvious when you look at the populations.

 

[Sanman]

You joke, but I focus on behavioral geriatrics in grad school- did my dissertation in a nursing facility; student chair of Behavioral Geriatric SIG of AABT, etc. Now I work almost exclusively with toddlers. Many similarities in the work and training, even if not obvious when you look at the populations.

Did not know that about you ABA, but you are right. Behavioral interventions are behavioral interventions and it pays to be good at them.