PsyD and PhD in an academic career

[hum1]

There are differences in terms of philosophy of training, focus on clinical and research, and professional and public perceptions between PsyD's and PhD but I am wondering what are the real implications if one decides to pursue an academic career.

From my experience a PhD has more reputation than a PsyD in academic settings, but also I do not see a lot of PsyD's as tenure professors as these positions are usually taken by PhDs, so PysD's usually gravitate towards working as adjuncts.

I am wondering what are other people's thoughts, perceptions, and experiences regarding the possibility of a PsyD working in academia.

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[AcronymAllergy]

It's certainly possible to work in academia with a Psy.D., but outside of Psy.D.-granting institutions, I would be surprised if there's not still some amount of bias against the degree in many places, fair or not. The opportunities/resources available to participate in the type of research needed to set yourself up for an academic career may also be more limited in (the average) Psy.D. program relative to (the average) Ph.D. program.

 

[R. Matey]

Agree with above. Even in balanced Ph.D. programs, which are mostly equivalent to the better Psy.D. programs out there in terms of training and resources, it can be difficult to gain the necessary skills and record needed to be competitive for academic jobs. My perception of many Psy.D. programs is that they are more clinical coursework heavy so finding the time to write, submit, revise, resubmit etc could also present a challenge.

 

[cara susanna]

We had a spousal hire come up in our dept meeting (back when I was a student rep). I remember they were turned down specifically because they had a PsyD and "that's not a research degree."

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It can definitely be an uphill battle in the beginning, so presenting at conferences and publishing during training are both important steps to being competitive. Receiving solid mentorship is key, as is taking upper level stats courses. Having coding experience would also be helpful.

Ed.D. / School Psych students have a harder time securing APA-acres internships, but that gets into more significant differences in training programs. Most internship sites don’t seem to care btw PhD & PsyD, but there can still be a bias from some faculty and students in the cohort. I had to prove myself at every level, including interviews for faculty positions. I ran into some bias from physician colleagues, until I proved myself and my abilities. Their bias was more 2nd/3rd hand, so it was easier to overcome after working with them for a bit.

When I reviewed apps for internship & fellowship I didn’t care about the degree, as long as it was from an APA-acred program. I tossed any app that didn’t have presentations and at least 1 publication bc that is doing the bare minimum in a program. I also tossed any mill programs (regardless of degree).

The vast majority of hospitals now will have at least a couple of PsyDs, but some geographical areas might have less (e.g. Midwest). I can’t speak to private practice, counseling centers, etc. If you can build a competitive CV, then your degree becomes mostly a moot point by the time you finish fellowship.

 

[calimich]

...but also I do not see a lot of PsyD's as tenure professors as these positions are usually taken by PhDs, so PysD's usually gravitate towards working as adjuncts.

this is the case where I'm at. All my tenure track colleagues have phds

 

[PsyDr]

I think the strength of PhD programs is that it’s designed to be an apprenticeship. You start doing research under the wing of someone who has an established history of publication and grants. Then your name gets associated with that person, so the editors and grant places see your name and think “they’re okay”. Then you get increasingly more independent. That is not as present in most psyd programs.

It would seem more typical for a psyd to have a clinical appointment in some academic settings.

Then again, I had some weird appointments in academia. But I wouldn’t try to reproduce those.

 

[smalltownpsych]

My PsyD program definitely did not prepare me for academia. Too much emphasis on the clinical. Most of my cohort did minimal research although there were one or two exceptions who were more involved in projects and coukd foreseeable head in that direction. It is tough to balance clinical and research as you get further along. I would love to be involved in research in a number of areas that are directly tied to my clinical interests, but then I would have to move away from those clinical interests. I am hopeful that some day I could support some research opportunities at the organization I am creating, but we’ll see if that pipe dream ever manifests.

I continue to be amazed at how quickly the clinical work takes over all else. I realized at a college basketball game the other day that I used to know so much about this as I recognized a couple of coaches and remembered what schools and NBA teams they played for years ago back in the days before I entered doctoral training. Now, my capacity for this type of info is used up by the histories of my patients and their families. Makes me kind of boring at parties since I know little about much pop culture, but the info I do have is what pays the bills so…

 

[Sanman]

I think the strength of PhD programs is that it’s designed to be an apprenticeship. You start doing research under the wing of someone who has an established history of publication and grants. Then your name gets associated with that person, so the editors and grant places see your name and think “they’re okay”. Then you get increasingly more independent. That is not as present in most psyd programs.

It would seem more typical for a psyd to have a clinical appointment in some academic settings.

Then again, I had some weird appointments in academia. But I wouldn’t try to reproduce those.

I think this is it. I know a few PsyDs that have academic appts, so it can be done. The issue is more of mentorship than anything else. The good programs teach you know to do research as well as most balanced PhD programs. What they do not teach you is those soft skills like grant writing, getting your research consistently into publication, etc. It can be done in a PsyD program with the correct mentorship. However, that would require someone that self selected into a PsyD program, wants an academic career, and the mentorship being available. More likely, I can see a PsyD ending up at a more research VA hospital or AMC rather than the traditional university setting. Though, there are a more than a few that are now PsyD program faculty themselves.

 

[The Cinnabon]

It's certainly possible to work in academia with a Psy.D., but outside of Psy.D.-granting institutions, I would be surprised if there's not still some amount of bias against the degree in many places, fair or not. The opportunities/resources available to participate in the type of research needed to set yourself up for an academic career may also be more limited in (the average) Psy.D. program relative to (the average) Ph.D. program.

I'm curious, but does this also include the few balanced PsyD programs that do have a research focus? I can't remember which program exactly but I know I have one on my school list that's funded and research heavy. I'm also interested in a research/academic career.

 

[hum1]

Thank you for the thought provoking comments. It is interesting as some people are emphasizing not only the difference in training and academic curriculum, but also an apprenticeship component in PhD's which has more to do with a relationship or published work with an adviser, teacher, researcher, mentor, etc as an important distinction between the PsyD's and PhD's programs.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I'm curious, but does this also include the few balanced PsyD programs that do have a research focus? I can't remember which program exactly but I know I have one on my school list that's funded and research heavy. I'm also interested in a research/academic career.

I honestly don't know. I'd say the safest bet, if you're seriously considering a research/academic career, is to go the Ph.D. route if possible.

If the Psy.D. programs you're mentioning follow more of a "traditional" mentorship model where you'll work under a specific advisor/in a specific lab, then it may be a somewhat safer bet.

Mind you, this isn't to say that you can't get a strong research background in a Psy.D. program. It just may take more legwork on your part, and unfortunately, there may be bias against the degree, at least early in your career. I imagine once you've landed a few large grants, no one's going to care what initials come after your name.

 

[R. Matey]

Mind you, this isn't to say that you can't get a strong research background in a Psy.D. program. It just may take more legwork on your part, and unfortunately, there may be bias against the degree, at least early in your career. I imagine once you've landed a few large grants, no one's going to care what initials come after your name.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I've ever seen a Psy.D. on the TT at an R1 institution. I imagine you might be able to do something like this in an AMC were money is ultimately what matters, but it might be up-hill battle to get in the door via a postdoc. You could probably also teach in some SLACs, but those might also be competitive.

 

[Sanman]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I've ever seen a Psy.D. on the TT at an R1 institution. I imagine you might be able to do something like this in an AMC were money is ultimately what matters, but it might be up-hill battle to get in the door via a postdoc. You could probably also teach in some SLACs, but those might also be competitive.

Off the top of my head:

Steven Paul Woods

Not that I would suggest you go to a PsyD program if your goal is R1 faculty. Really I would suggest a clinical science focused program over even a balanced PhD.

 

[R. Matey]

Not that I would suggest you go to a PsyD program if your goal is R1 faculty. Really I would suggest a clinical science focused program over even a balanced PhD.

Only worth mentioning that clinical science isn't really a thing for us lowlifes that come from schools of ed. The nicer scientist-practitioner programs that produce R1 faculty are just a bit longer than your traditional five year balanced program.

 

[Sanman]

Only worth mentioning that clinical science isn't really a thing for us lowlifes that come from schools of ed. The nicer scientist-practitioner programs that produce R1 faculty are just a bit longer than your traditional five year balanced program.

Well, maybe it can be forgiven. At least you aren't a PsyD!

 

[R. Matey]

Well, maybe it can be forgiven. At least you aren't a PsyD!

Lol! So when PCSAS comes for our jobs, I'll be sure to set aside an extra torch and pitchfork.

 

[Sanman]

Lol! So when PCSAS comes for our jobs, I'll be sure to set aside an extra torch and pitchfork.

Sure, I love torches and pitchforks. They don't check credentials prior to handing those out right? Better to be in the mob than running from it!

 

[WisNeuro]

Sure, I love torches and pitchforks. They don't check credentials prior to handing those out right? Better to be in the mob than running from it!

Just make sure it's not Tiki brand, white nationalists co-opted those.

 

[Sanman]

Just make sure it's not Tiki brand, white nationalists co-opted those.

Man they ruin everything...high and tight haircuts, Tiki torches...

 

[NewNeuroDemic]

In my experience, a PsyD applying for a tenure-track position is at a significant disadvantage relative to a PhD regardless of job details but even more so if research is the primary responsibility.

 

[Justanothergrad]

In my experience, a PsyD applying for a tenure-track position is at a significant disadvantage relative to a PhD regardless of job details but even more so if research is the primary responsibility.

Yup. You are fighting an uphill battle. Not only will it take more to get competitive (current search chair and former search committee member myself, so I've seen it first hand) at the publication level, but then if you come in there is gonna be more to prove/higher bar to show you can do what you need given that non-research focus. You gain nothing out of it, and it costs more to get less.

 

[hum1]

What about PsyD programs? Aren't there a higher number of PsyD's in tenure positions in PsyD programs?

 

[Justanothergrad]

What about PsyD programs? Aren't there a higher number of PsyD's in tenure positions in PsyD programs?

Here's the analogy

You serve burgers. You only want to sell your burgers in stadiums for a specific sport and are not open to other sports. Your burger joint will not have the opportunity to expand or become established even, given this choice you are making. If you goal is to sell burgers and establish a broad chain of stores, why not make sure you can do so? The burger is tenure in this example.

 

[WisNeuro]

Here's the analogy

You serve burgers. You only want to sell your burgers in stadiums for a specific sport and are not open to other sports. Your burger joint will not have the opportunity to expand or become established even, given this choice you are making. If you goal is to sell burgers and establish a broad chain of stores, why not make sure you can do so? The burger is tenure in this example.

Am I to understand that tenure is not like Burger King? I can't have it "my way?"

 

[Justanothergrad]

Am I to understand that tenure is not like Burger King? I can't have it "my way?"

It's more like taco bell, really.

 

[R. Matey]

You serve burgers. You only want to sell your burgers in stadiums for a specific sport and are not open to other sports. Your burger joint will not have the opportunity to expand or become established even, given this choice you are making. If you goal is to sell burgers and establish a broad chain of stores, why not make sure you can do so? The burger is tenure in this example.

So if I take the natural log of four burgers and divide it by the square root of seven milkshakes, I get tenure?

 

[Sanman]

If burgers are tenure, what are fries?

 

[WisNeuro]

If burgers are tenure, what are fries?

If they're cold, soggy, oversalted/etc, adjunct teaching positions.