MD Caribbean Graduate kills himself

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Quite the story.

These were not federal loans (which include life insurance benefit / are automatically discharged in death).

The student did not have life insurance.

The student's parents cosigned the loans and are therefore most likely still on the hook for the debt.


This is like a perfect storm of tragedy.
 
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My heart breaks for his poor parents. It's a blasphemy to have to bury a child.

Agree this has nothing to do with Carib schools.

eggnog316 said:
Hey guys,

I browse the premed forum on reddit and this post was linked on one of the threads: My brother killed himself, what happens to his student loans? • r/legaladvice

A Caribbean graduate was unable to find a residency, left with $300k in loans, and felt like his only option was to kill himself. This was one of the most heartbreaking things I've ever seen.

What will it take to get these god dam crooks in the Caribbean to get shut down?
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This is one of the most sad things I've heard. I couldn't imagine the feeling of hopelessness that student must have felt but surely one needs to be suffering from a mental illness to actually kill themselves.
 
Strider_91 said:
This is one of the most sad things I've heard. I couldn't imagine the feeling of hopelessness that student must have felt but surely one needs to be suffering from a mental illness to actually kill themselves.
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It's anecdotal, but all the people I know who have killed themselves were pretty mentally ill. As someone who has lost family and friends to suicide, I feel for the family.
 
Yes this is major problem for all medical students, but to say the Caribbean schools have no blame in precipitating this is inaccurate. With the extreme stress of any medical school, Caribbean schools make it worse on students by pouching those who are often more vulnerable and desperate, in an isolated developing country, for higher debt, and much bleaker outcomes. After the trials of trying to become a doctor only to come up short and have 300k in debt, who here can say suicide wouldn't cross their mind?
 
Goro said:
My heart breaks for his poor parents. It's a blasphemy to have to bury a child.

Agree this has nothing to do with Carib schools.
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i'm pretty surprised to hear you say this. you don't think for-profit institutions that prey on students by accepting pretty much anyone, giving (a large percentage of) them false hope of becoming doctors, and saddling them with crushing debt in the process bear some moral culpability when these students inevitably find themselves in terrible situations when the music stops?
 
Vain Brother said:
i'm pretty surprised to hear you say this. you don't think for-profit institutions that prey on students by accepting pretty much anyone, giving (a large percentage of) them false hope of becoming doctors, and saddling them with crushing debt in the process bear some moral culpability when these students inevitably find themselves in terrible situations when the music stops?
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But they don't give a large percentage of their students false hope of becoming doctors. The majority of their students do get residency. And you'll find a ton of alumni that'll tell you that those schools gave them a chance at their career when nobody else would. Could they stand to dial back their advertising? Yeah, from anecdotal stories I've heard of admissions staff assuring students that stuff like ortho is totally doable, for sure. But at the end of the day, I'd say most carib students are adults and know what they're getting into.
 
i don't believe the majority of their students get residencies -- perhaps the majority (and "majority" is nothing to be proud of, when USMD schools match >95%) of the students who actually make it through 4th year match, but this is not counting the many students who drop out after a year or two or three, with nothing to show for it but debt. i don't think we know the exact numbers because the schools (understandably, from their perspective) don't release these numbers

being an adult does not give other people free license to scam you. bernie madoff is in jail. predatory lenders go to jail. even if there is no legal culpability here, there is a moral obligation to do right by their students, and not just the ones who make it through.
 
Vain Brother said:
i'm pretty surprised to hear you say this. you don't think for-profit institutions that prey on students by accepting pretty much anyone, giving (a large percentage of) them false hope of becoming doctors, and saddling them with crushing debt in the process bear some moral culpability when these students inevitably find themselves in terrible situations when the music stops?
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The person killed themselves because they were depressed, first and foremost.

ScottTenorman54 said:
But they don't give a large percentage of their students false hope of becoming doctors. The majority of their students do get residency. And you'll find a ton of alumni that'll tell you that those schools gave them a chance at their career when nobody else would. Could they stand to dial back their advertising? Yeah, from anecdotal stories I've heard of admissions staff assuring students that stuff like ortho is totally doable, for sure. But at the end of the day, I'd say most carib students are adults and know what they're getting into.
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No, actually, they don't, with the current attrition rates, and the at best 50-50 chance even at the "best" Carib diploma mills, the majority of students end up never being doctors, and deeply in debt. Evem of those who match, many of these are one year preliminary positions, which are dead end jobs that force people back i into the match the following year. The diploma mill make their profits off of the desperate, the naive and the special snowflakes who think they, which barely broke 20 on the MCAT, will somehow score > 250 on Step I. And for every successful Carib grad you might know, I'll just simply direct you to the Carib forum,. where the majority of posts are "Failed of of SGU/Ross etc...can I transfer to another Carib school?"
 
Strider_91 said:
This is one of the most sad things I've heard. I couldn't imagine the feeling of hopelessness that student must have felt but surely one needs to be suffering from a mental illness to actually kill themselves.
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Sadly, I can imagine this. Seeing the still present lack of common decency accompanying a great deal of the medical school/internship/residency process, along with extreme financial concerns, this devastation has been happening all over the country. Extreme stress and sleep deprivation does not necessarily define someone as having a "mental illness", btw. Our medical/osteopathic schools (which continue to proliferate, while evading the question of where will all these new students find rotations) can still do a better job, imo.
 
eggnog316 said:
Hey guys,

I browse the premed forum on reddit and this post was linked on one of the threads: My brother killed himself, what happens to his student loans? • r/legaladvice

A Caribbean graduate was unable to find a residency, left with $300k in loans, and felt like his only option was to kill himself. This was one of the most heartbreaking things I've ever seen.

What will it take to get these god dam crooks in the Caribbean to get shut down?
Click to expand...

I am assuming this was an international student. It can be very frustrating as an international student but I would not kill myself. I came to this country years ago as an international student and it was frustrating when one has to wait by taking unnecessary classes to get into a program. My accent and the way I write used to be a problem too. Student loans will drive one crazy. These people who give private student loans do it to make huge profits...poor student. It must be very hard on the family.
 
Goro said:
The person killed themselves because they were depressed, first and foremost.
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Of course, but that's the case with the vast majority of suicides, so it's certainly reasonable to consider situational factors too (i.e. a predatory institution that sets up naive and desperate kids for failure and financial ruin). I don't think anyone's saying that the school is the only cause of this tragedy, or even the main cause, but just an important cause.
 
ScottTenorman54 said:
But they don't give a large percentage of their students false hope of becoming doctors. The majority of their students do get residency. And you'll find a ton of alumni that'll tell you that those schools gave them a chance at their career when nobody else would. Could they stand to dial back their advertising? Yeah, from anecdotal stories I've heard of admissions staff assuring students that stuff like ortho is totally doable, for sure. But at the end of the day, I'd say most carib students are adults and know what they're getting into.
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...Bro

They have absolutely NO CLUE what theyre getting into. I have acquaintances from undergrad going there who were in my science classes. This is the same issues that PsyD diploma mills, for profit law schools, private pharmacy schools, a heavy amount of dental schools, some private med and osteo, and some new schools in my field have problems with....even if their "ranking" is high

Schools can manipulate statistics and numbers and price hike completely irregardless of the outside market forces and payment trends in the US healthcare system.

They use the students' social security as a middle man to take the guaranteed federal loans off of them to pocket, while the debt accrues from artificial interest rates.

Unless the bolded attitude changes, these schemes will keep going and sad stories will continue.
 
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From other posts it's believed that the guy was a US citizen who went to AUS, didn't match, fiance broke it off with him due to his debt. He applied FM to around the California area due to having family there. He got a terrible hand and didn't know of any other way to face it. I don't know what I'd do in his shoes and I'm waiting for the posts here saying "I wouldn't have done that" or "he should have done this." People kill themselves for lesser things but not matching and having a broken off engagement? That is brutal.

Going to a Carribean school absolutely had something to do with it. Sure he might have have mental health issues previously but going to a place that is in general looked down on definitely didnt help his future prospects if he was looking for one geographical area.
 
chill with your personal responsibility politics BS. the entire reason why running scams is immoral (and often illegal) is that they prey on people who are vulnerable. google "social contract" and let that be your summer reading. that the people who get scammed entered the agreement willingly does not absolve the scammers of moral responsibility
 
Vain Brother said:
chill with your personal responsibility politics BS. the entire reason why running scams is immoral (and often illegal) is that they prey on people who are vulnerable. google "social contract" and let that be your summer reading. that the people who get scammed entered the agreement willingly does not absolve the scammers of moral responsibility
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Putting aside the childish condescension for a minute

AUC, SGU, and Ross are not scams. They're not predators. They're not illegal. If you honestly believe they're scams then you have no idea what a real scam looks like. My god, I can't believe I've somehow ended up defending carib schools when I'm not even on their side. I don't like them, but we don't need to act like they're the devil.
 
Not all these students are aware of the gamble. These applicants are told lies by the schools which are reinforced by friends/family who think it's a viable option. Many people are somewhat aware of Caribbean school route and assume it does lead to becoming a practicing doctor due to docs who went there 20-30 years ago. There is limited information available to the average applicant (outside of posters on sdn) that show specific Caribbean schools are a terrible option. I've heard of pre med counsellors even giving the thumbs up. Let's not forget there are countless schools outside of the Carib "big 4"
 
ScottTenorman54 said:
Putting aside the childish condescension for a minute

AUC, SGU, and Ross are not scams. They're not predators. They're not illegal. If you honestly believe they're scams then you have no idea what a real scam looks like. My god, I can't believe I've somehow ended up defending carib schools when I'm not even on their side. I don't like them, but we don't need to act like they're the devil.
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If they were located in the US, ACGME would have shut them down and sued them long ago.
 
Goro said:
If they were located in the US, ACGME would have shut them down and sued them long ago.
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That's a fair point. What I was trying to convey anyway(possibly unsuccessfully) is that going on the usual carib bash fest that this forum loves doing, starting with OP's "dam carib crooks" totally misses the mark. I don't think the people over at AUC should take any kind of BS moral blame for this, nor do I think they are a bunch of cartoonish predatory scammers just waiting to pickpocket some poor student. He was mentally ill, and he unfortunately wasn't able to get help in time.
 
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ScottTenorman54 said:
That's a fair point. What I was trying to convey anyway(possibly unsuccessfully) is that going on the usual carib bash fest that this forum loves doing, starting with OP's "dam carib crooks" totally misses the mark. I don't think the people over at AUC should take any kind of BS moral blame for this. He was mentally ill, and he unfortunately wasn't able to get help in time.
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What would you do if you didn't match from an IMG and your fiance left you?
 
Of all the threads where the Caribbean schools deserve to be smacked around, this isn't one. Change the scenario from "not matching" to "matching into PC with >300k in loans" and it becomes real for you, your friends, and/or your classmates. For my nontrad US friends with families in this same situation who can't simply "live like a resident for 4 more years", I wish I had the solution. Same for this kid. Terrible situations that remain ignored.
 
ScottTenorman54 said:
What's your point?
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Not OP but I believe the point is that you don't have to be mentally ill to have those events affect you. As someone else pointed out those are very serious events that would throw any non mentally ill individual. It's very easy to throw a blanket statement of someone being mentally ill so that other issues can automatically be absolved.
 
We could discuss semantics but scams are things with no viable likelihood of benefiting the person being scammed. Someone mentioned Madoff; not the same.

Caribbean schools are very risky, not unlike trying to start a risky buiseness with a loan of some sort. I'm sure many people embark on starting a business without really doing their homework and get screwed as a result. For some reason, we get very emotional and think it's different when it happens to a student, but it's really not. Premeds think becoming a doctor is the only way to happiness, so it's a lot more than just the financial aspect that leads one into despair.

Now, the stressful nature of medical training in general, both essential aspects and those that really are inexcusable, has been discussed to death on these boards.

Tragic story.
 
ScottTenorman54 said:
What's your point?
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Don't match psychiatry if you can't link external emotional and financial stressors to the development of mental distress w/o a previous hx of a mental illness

Sorry for being blunt.

lazymed said:
We could discuss semantics but scams are things with no viable likelihood of benefiting the person being scammed. Someone mentioned Madoff; not the same.

Caribbean schools are very risky, not unlike trying to start a risky buiseness with a loan of some sort. I'm sure many people embark on starting a business without really doing their homework and get screwed as a result. For some reason, we get very emotional and think it's different when it happens to a student, but it's really not. Premeds think becoming a doctor is the only way to happiness, so it's a lot more than just the financial aspect that leads one into despair.

Now, the stressful nature of medical training in general, both essential aspects and those that really are inexcusable, has been discussed to death on these boards.

Tragic story.
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You make good points, particularly the distinction between a pure scam and another that still offers the ability to make a living but youre missing a piece though.

The debt is nondischargeable. Business loans are as you have an asset. A degree provides a skillset but legalities don't allow it to be removed as an asset since it isn't concrete.

An MD degree can still be utilized for lab work and grant writing as someone above has mentioned which can still let someone survive, however, without a physician salary or immediately winning the lotto....that debt load is insurmountable.

If the undergrad checkmark allowed one to make a salary for a basic finance or desk job that could pay down the debt acquired as one tries to enter their market but fail, then fine, but this isn't the case with a heavy subset of professional schools.

I mean this sincerely and for educational purposes only.
 
Syrxis said:
Sorry for the skepticism, but anybody curious why this story of a young MD committing suicide in a national park has not gotten media attention? Not to mention the part of the story of a park ranger calling the family when it should be police handling the matter.

Maybe it's just the part of me that hopes the story is a lie. Nevertheless, the story is a sobering one about student debt.
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I agree, it all seems very odd. Nothing comes up from a quick Google search. Surely if there were a hanging suicide at a California state park (or national park) there would be some coverage of it. Supposedly happened 5 days ago...this was posted 3 days ago on reddit and he said the family was called 2 days earlier? I'm not sure I would be creating a reddit account and posting just 2 days after...but maybe that's just me. And where was the car found? And why did he have access to it's contents before the parents? It's all just very odd...but then again no one ever creates fake stories on reddit, right?
 
Toutie said:
I agree, it all seems very odd. Nothing comes up from a quick Google search. Surely if there were a hanging suicide at a California state park (or national park) there would be some coverage of it. Supposedly happened 5 days ago...this was posted 3 days ago on reddit and he said the family was called 2 days earlier? I'm not sure I would be creating a reddit account and posting just 2 days after...but maybe that's just me. And where was the car found? And why did he have access to it's contents before the parents? It's all just very odd...but then again no one ever creates fake stories on reddit, right?
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all very true but its a really messed up story to make up
 
jadedphysiotherapist said:
Don't match psychiatry if you can't link external emotional and financial stressors to the development of mental distress w/o a previous hx of a mental illness

Sorry for being blunt.
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Yeah I was wondering when the "you'll make a bad _____" would show up. And it came with the requisite haughtiness and all. Congrats, at least we made it past post 30. I'll take your word for it, o wise one.
 
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Read the comments by physicians/ subscribers to NEJM on their April article on medical school student suicides: "Kathryn"

The comments by physicians are eye opening as to how many of them battle depression, addiction, suicidal ideations and loneliness. This one was written by a Cardiologist Academician

FLORENCE ROTHENBERG, MD | Physician - CARDIOVASCULAR DISEASE | Disclosure: None
CINCINNATI OH
March 28, 2017
Thank you
Thank you, Dr. Hill, for this moving, honest, and courageous essay. I teach fellows and residents cardiology in an academic setting. I am deeply saddened that, in the 26 years since I've graduated medical school, we are still tragically unkind to each other. Kindness is treated as a weakness in medicine, which is part of the problem, of course. I think the way we treat each other is killing us. I try to teach by example. I say no when I need to, I make sure I get sleep, food, and to hydrate. I try to exercise regularly. I look things up with my team when we aren't sure of the evidence for a clinical decision. I try not to be mean. I try to remember to apologize and say thank you. I may not be as accomplished as some, but if we don't provide examples of self-care and kindness, this dis-ease will perpetuate. Thank you for your strength and courage. You will heal many people with your humanity, and that is really what medicine is about.
​


Kathryn

David Muller, M.D.

N Engl J Med 2017; 376:1101-1103March 23, 2017DOI: 10.1056/NEJMp1615141
 
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Strider_91 said:
This is one of the most sad things I've heard. I couldn't imagine the feeling of hopelessness that student must have felt but surely one needs to be suffering from a mental illness to actually kill themselves.
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Probably, but there have been numerous suicides of med students and residents in the past decade and a common theme seems to be that the stress of the process as a whole pushed them over the edge. I'm not trying to downplay the role of mental illness or brush that problem under the rug at all. However, I know plenty of people that had no discernable pathology when they entered med school or during the first few weeks/months who ended up either severely depressed or having some kind of mental breakdown. I've talked about it with more classmates than I think is reasonable and it's such prevalent issue that our school actually started doing a "wellness week" in the past couple years to try and remind students that their own health matters and that the school has resources available and encourages us to use them.

Bottom line is that it's not an issue we should just blame on mental illness and move on from. It's a brutal process that can break even the most stable individuals, and until that is actually recognized on a large scale there won't be a change.

ScottTenorman54 said:
And whose responsibility is this primarily? You're kidding yourself if you think it isn't mostly on the students.
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So if a student goes to a college where the advisors encourage applying to Carib schools or talk to Carib graduates who are docs and said it was a good experience for them, how are they supposed to know any better? Most pre-meds don't know there are resources like SDN out there. Very few know about the charting the outcomes data and even fewer know how to actually interpret it. When a student's resources at hand all say the Carib is a valid option and they have no one with a legitimate understanding of the process tell them otherwise (most practicing physicians I know don't know that going to med school in the Carib is a terrible choice), how are they supposed to know they're getting bad information? You're the one kidding yourself if you think that most pre-med students are provided with good, accurate information about the actual quality of different schools.
 
You guys are placing way to much of the burden on caribbean schools. The onus is on the person signing for the loans. Like others have said, this is just a risky business deal. Works for some, not for others. If someone going to the caribbean does not know that going in then they didn't do enough research.
 
YoungDoc25 said:
Of all the threads where the Caribbean schools deserve to be smacked around, this isn't one. Change the scenario from "not matching" to "matching into PC with >300k in loans" and it becomes real for you, your friends, and/or your classmates. For my nontrad US friends with families in this same situation who can't simply "live like a resident for 4 more years", I wish I had the solution. Same for this kid. Terrible situations that remain ignored.
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I don't understand the part of not being able to live like a resident for four more years. 50k per year residency salary is the equivalent to the median total household income in America.
 
Stagg737 said:
Probably, but there have been numerous suicides of med students and residents in the past decade and a common theme seems to be that the stress of the process as a whole pushed them over the edge. I'm not trying to downplay the role of mental illness or brush that problem under the rug at all. However, I know plenty of people that had no discernable pathology when they entered med school or during the first few weeks/months who ended up either severely depressed or having some kind of mental breakdown. I've talked about it with more classmates than I think is reasonable and it's such prevalent issue that our school actually started doing a "wellness week" in the past couple years to try and remind students that their own health matters and that the school has resources available and encourages us to use them.

Bottom line is that it's not an issue we should just blame on mental illness and move on from. It's a brutal process that can break even the most stable individuals, and until that is actually recognized on a large scale there won't be a change.



So if a student goes to a college where the advisors encourage applying to Carib schools or talk to Carib graduates who are docs and said it was a good experience for them, how are they supposed to know any better? Most pre-meds don't know there are resources like SDN out there. Very few know about the charting the outcomes data and even fewer know how to actually interpret it. When a student's resources at hand all say the Carib is a valid option and they have no one with a legitimate understanding of the process tell them otherwise (most practicing physicians I know don't know that going to med school in the Carib is a terrible choice), how are they supposed to know they're getting bad information? You're the one kidding yourself if you think that most pre-med students are provided with good, accurate information about the actual quality of different schools.
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You don't really know that they had no mental illness. Remember that many enter the profession feeling afraid to disclose their illness. They fear that it would have an affect on their ability to get licensed. So, they may have hid it the best that they could until it was no longer possible to do so. Hiding a mental illness is often done in other professions too until the person can no longer do so.
 
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Not matching and having a fiancé leave you after working really hard for 4-7 years can make people who may have lived long happy and healthy lives as a HS biology teacher or PA or carpenter or whatever somewhere do things like this. It's not always a long history of depression or "mental illness". People can react without completely considering better alternatives. Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem and this may have been prevented if someone who knew them interviened. People can make the wrong choice impulsively. This is very sad.
 
libertyyne said:
I don't understand the part of not being able to live like a resident for four more years. 50k per year residency salary is the equivalent to the median total household income in America.
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Median in 2015 was $56.5k, while the mean was like $73k. My wife and I take home a little above the mean. We pay collectively about $1000/month just in loans, and that's only for our undergrads. If we added another $500 or so per month for med school, we would be struggling (we have two kids and also other bills) living where we live.
 
libertyyne said:
I don't understand the part of not being able to live like a resident for four more years. 50k per year residency salary is the equivalent to the median total household income in America.
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Factor in being in your second career and having 3+ kids in their preteens/teenage years, and then add on a $3,000+ payment to your loans each month. It was hard for me to imagine until seeing a family friend go through it. The whole "median household" argument is complete BS to me. We're also having a monthly loan payment that's more than the average citizen makes in a month. We also get taxed the s*** out of on top of that. Not to mention our job requires much more stress and hours than "the average American". My friend is in his early 40s and doesn't have 4+ more years to throw away and not enjoy life with his kids and wife. They slid by in medical school on loans and continued it in residency. At some point, it's just not worth it. Some quit, some become so negative they're impossible to be around, and some commit suicide from the stress of it all and their dream being smothered by a dollar hanging over their head.

The COA for medical is a huge load of crap, and if you can't see that as a top factor for suicide amongst our friends/classmates, then I'm really not sure what else to say.
 
YoungDoc25 said:
Factor in being in your second career and having 3+ kids in their preteens/teenage years, and then add on a $3,000+ payment to your loans each month. It was hard for me to imagine until seeing a family friend go through it. The whole "median household" argument is complete BS to me. We're also having a monthly loan payment that's more than the average citizen makes in a month. We also get taxed the s*** out of on top of that. Not to mention our job requires much more stress and hours than "the average American". My friend is in his early 40s and doesn't have 4+ more years to throw away and not enjoy life with his kids and wife. They slid by in medical school on loans and continued it in residency. At some point, it's just not worth it. Some quit, some become so negative they're impossible to be around, and some commit suicide from the stress of it all and their dream being smothered by a dollar hanging over their head.

The COA for medical is a huge load of crap, and if you can't see that as a top factor for suicide amongst our friends/classmates, then I'm really not sure what else to say.
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I am not disagreeing with you regarding COA being out of control. The path is hard , but career changers should know what they are getting into.
The financially responsible thing and the thing done to make life easier is usually not the same thing.
Considering you could live on 75 k /year and pay the rest towards loans or even 100k and pay the rest towards loans. Let's not conflate the financial struggles of the majority of Americans with those of top percentile income earners, keep some perspective.
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Median in 2015 was $56.5k, while the mean was like $73k. My wife and I take home a little above the mean. We pay collectively about $1000/month just in loans, and that's only for our undergrads. If we added another $500 or so per month for med school, we would be struggling (we have two kids and also other bills) living where we live.
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1. Median is a better number because mean includes the mark zuckerburgs of the world.
2. If your loans are federal you should look into ibr, considering your payoff plan is different.
 
libertyyne said:
I am not disagreeing with you regarding COA being out of control. The path is hard , but career changers should know what they are getting into.
The financially responsible thing and the thing done to make life easier is usually not the same thing.
Considering you could live on 75 k /year and pay the rest towards loans or even 100k and pay the rest towards loans. Let's not conflate the financial struggles of the majority of Americans with those of top percentile income earners, keep some perspective.
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He was well aware and was hoping the PSLF would be around. Unfortunately, that doesn't look to be the case.

That sounds perfectly feasible until you're in their shoes. When you have kids or see someone go through it, you'll understand better maybe. Do you want your kids going through the public school system in its current state? Your POS minivan you got to squeeze by during your residency/med school for your family is now falling apart, what now? When do you start saving for your 3+ kids college fund? Does everyone get a cellphone? Having bunkbeds in your 3 bedroom house isn't cutting it anymore, but can you afford to buy a house? Can you make a down payment? You've got two kids also about to be able to drive who want cars. What do you do? Do you ever retire? Pay your loans or do what the "average American" has had time to put money aside for while you've been in school and making minimum wage for the last decade. It's not as simple as saying 'you make X amount of dollars, now you should be fine.' So yes, perspective is key. I won't have to go through this, thank God. But many do and it's absolutely ridiculous.
 
I completely agree though for someone who's ~30 and a young family that it shouldn't be as much of an issue. Just saying it's not always so cut and dry.
 
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