MD Caribbean Graduate kills himself

[Toutie]

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Again. This is a HANGING in a PUBLIC PARK. There is no way at least one news station doesn't find out about that, as the police have to make that part of their records. Someone found the body and made a 911 call, even if it was a park ranger.

I can totally see why it might not be news if he did it in his house or something. The fact that it is a dramatic suicide in a public park makes the odds it doesn't get reported infinitesimal.

But...but...but...I saw it on reddit, so it must be true! I saw it linked on SDN, so it must be true! People are discussing it, so it must be true! People have forgotten how to use common sense anymore. It doesn't take a lot of it to look at all the facts here and come up with about 98% probability that it is a hoax. smh...

I saw it on Facebook, so it must be true! I saw it on FOX news, so it must be true. I read it on Brietbart, so it must be true! My cousin told me, so it must be true! Is it any wonder why we're where we are today? 🙄

 

[libertyyne]

I don't think anyone has argued that a single person couldn't pay off $160k in loans while making $250k. Quite the opposite. A family of 4 or 5 with over $300k in loans while making $200k-250k fresh out of residency in PC. It's not something you just punch into a calculator and get an answer. As @Mad Jack said, it's also highly dependent on where you live as well. COL and taxes vary pretty significantly.

The reason I picked single for the calculation is because that is the worst case senario in terms of taxes. Everything that was listed in the previous comment as an expense excluding car insurance is probably an above the line deduction for taxes. You can choose to take a job in a low cost of living area, and I dont know where you live but many families raise 3 kids with less than 6K net per month income. Almost every family i knew growing up did and continues to do so. A large portion of the country does not make that after taxes and this is in full loan payback mode. Even in payback mode physican families are not starving.
here is the payoff with 350 in loans.

 

[mwsapphire]

Is it just me, or does the Reddit story not mention any mental illness?
I really feel like this is because of being stuck with no way out, huge debt, and no ability to practice.
I do think one suicide can slip through the cracks, I don't think it's fair to chalk this up as being fake just b/c we only see it on Reddit? I mean, what would be the motivations of somebody who makes this kind of story up? I know it's crazy that it wasnt covered , but how do justify this being made up?

 

[Blessthefall]

Is it just me, or does the Reddit story not mention any mental illness?
I really feel like this is because of being stuck with no way out, huge debt, and no ability to practice.
I do think one suicide can slip through the cracks, I don't think it's fair to chalk this up as being fake just b/c we only see it on Reddit? I mean, what would be the motivations of somebody who makes this kind of story up? I know it's crazy that it wasnt covered , but how do justify this being made up?

...have you ever seen the show Catfish? People do crazy, horrible things simply because they're bored.

 

[YoungDoc25]

The reason I picked single for the calculation is because that is the worst case senario in terms of taxes. Everything that was listed in the previous comment as an expense excluding car insurance is probably an above the line deduction for taxes. You can choose to take a job in a low cost of living area, and I dont know where you live but many families raise 3 kids with less than 6K net per month income. Almost every family i knew growing up did and continues to do so. A large portion of the country does not make that after taxes and this is in full loan payback mode. Even in payback mode physican families are not starving.
here is the payoff with 350 in loans.
View attachment 218756

It isn't the worst case overall though is my point. You may pay a little more in taxes, but the cost of raising a family is more (in both money and stress). I live in one of the lowest COL cities in the US and my parents together make less than half of the income we're talking about. I know what it takes to live. The example was higher than where I live, sure. But not ridiculous by any means. I'm afraid you're underestimating the cost of a family/living. I'm not insinuating that any doctor is starving, but I am definitely saying that it's not all roses for PC docs who have families with ridiculous debt. You're out of your mind if you're going through the beat down of medical school and residency just to make what the average joe makes sitting behind a cubicle. That's the point of what I'm saying though. You get to finally be a doctor and then realize you would have been better off doing something else for your family. You wasted 10 years of your life just to give away half of your paycheck every month for 5+ years. That's not the dream. That's not what you busted your butt for. The delayed gratification gets delayed again. And without the right support system, suicide becomes an option for some. It happens yearly, so I'm not sure what you're trying to argue.

 

[libertyyne]

It isn't the worst case overall though is my point. You may pay a little more in taxes, but the cost of raising a family is more (in both money and stress). I live in one of the lowest COL cities in the US and my parents together make less than half of the income we're talking about. I know what it takes to live. The example was higher than where I live, sure. But not ridiculous by any means. I'm afraid you're underestimating the cost of a family/living. I'm not insinuating that any doctor is starving, but I am definitely saying that it's not all roses for PC docs who have families with ridiculous debt. You're out of your mind if you're going through the beat down of medical school and residency just to make what the average joe makes sitting behind a cubicle. That's the point of what I'm saying though. You get to finally be a doctor and then realize you would have been better off doing something else for your family. You wasted 10 years of your life just to give away half of your paycheck every month for 5+ years. That's not the dream. That's not what you busted your butt for. The delayed gratification gets delayed again. And without the right support system, suicide becomes an option for some. It happens yearly, so I'm not sure what you're trying to argue.

Thats the deal tho, its not like you couldn't google paycheck calculator and debt payments before embarking on this long journey. Plus after those five years you go on to make 5 times what the average joe makes. If it was sooo hopeless and futile we wouldn't have people lining up to go to medical school. I have yet to see any real information provided by you in terms of physicians with families commit suicide more often a year outside of residency. Or that money is the key motivating factor in that suicide. If making money was the soul motivation for going into this field, that was a mistake. Or it wasnt, not a lot of fields you can get into where you are guaranteed 200K+ stable income even with the debt and time that you have to put into it.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

But...but...but...I saw it on reddit, so it must be true! I saw it linked on SDN, so it must be true! People are discussing it, so it must be true! People have forgotten how to use common sense anymore. It doesn't take a lot of it to look at all the facts here and come up with about 98% probability that it is a hoax. smh...

I saw it on Facebook, so it must be true! I saw it on FOX news, so it must be true. I read it on Brietbart, so it must be true! My cousin told me, so it must be true! Is it any wonder why we're where we are today? 🙄

Yeah. I mean this kind of **** happens, and it's terrible. But I just think it's unlikely this happened with no coverage other than a Reddit thread.

 

[YoungDoc25]

Thats the deal tho, its not like you couldn't google paycheck calculator and debt payments before embarking on this long journey. Plus after those five years you go on to make 5 times what the average joe makes. If it was sooo hopeless and futile we wouldn't have people lining up to go to medical school. I have yet to see any real information provided by you in terms of physicians with families commit suicide more often a year outside of residency. Or that money is the key motivating factor in that suicide. If making money was the soul motivation for going into this field, that was a mistake. Or it wasnt, not a lot of fields you can get into where you are guaranteed 200K+ stable income even with the debt and time that you have to put into it.

You're clueless, so I'm not going to argue. Never said it had to be a year after residency. If you want an example, here's two after a 2 second google search. You're welcome to look at the other thousands of articles talking about medical student/physician suicide rates and what they propose is the issue.
https://afsp.org/our-work/education/physician-medical-student-depression-suicide-prevention/
http://www.mdedge.com/currentpsychi...ssion/depression-and-suicide-among-physicians

 

[libertyyne]

You're clueless, so I'm not going to argue. Never said it had to be a year after residency. If you want an example, here's two after a 2 second google search. You're welcome to look at the other thousands of articles talking about medical student/physician suicide rates and what they propose is the issue.
https://afsp.org/our-work/education/physician-medical-student-depression-suicide-prevention/
http://www.mdedge.com/currentpsychi...ssion/depression-and-suicide-among-physicians

Thanks for calling me clueless, thats very helpful. And thanks for changing the assertion from " cant raise a family on median wage" to "Physicans deserve not to have to raise a family on median wage" .

Since your assertion that financial stress causes this is not backed up by the literature review linked from AFSP either. Also the studies are global, so american debt is not a stressor that pushes physicians over the edge because physican counterparts around the world do not have that and still have elevated rates of suicide compared to general population. Lastly, it seems like physician suicides have outpaced the general population rates for decades dating back before the increases in debt effectively showing that your assertion doesnt hold water. In fact the second article you link says :

"A review of 14 studies found that the relative risk of suicide in physicians compared with the general population is between 1.1 and 3.4 for men and 2.5 to 5.7 for women.1 A retrospective study of English and Welsh doctors showed elevated suicide rates in female but not male physicians compared with the general population.10 There are no recent studies of suicide rates among U.S. physicians. A 1984-1995 study showed that white male physicians have a higher risk for suicide than other white male professionals.11 A survey of 4,500 women physicians found that female doctors are less likely to attempt suicide than the general female population6; however, their attempts more often are lethal, perhaps because they have greater knowledge of toxicology and access to lethal drugs.12"

So not only did female physicans attempt suicide less then their counterparts, their rates are higher because they were just more successful at it. You know, having knowledge on how the body works and how drugs works probably helps in the lethality of any suicide attempt.

 

[YoungDoc25]

Thanks for calling me clueless, thats very helpful. And thanks for changing the assertion from " cant raise a family on median wage" to "Physicans deserve not to have to raise a family on median wage" .

Since your assertion that financial stress causes this is not backed up by the literature review linked from AFSP either. Also the studies are global, so american debt is not a stressor that pushes physicians over the edge because physican counterparts around the world do not have that and still have elevated rates of suicide compared to general population. Lastly, it seems like physician suicides have outpaced the general population rates for decades dating back before the increases in debt effectively showing that your assertion doesnt hold water. In fact the second article you link says :

"A review of 14 studies found that the relative risk of suicide in physicians compared with the general population is between 1.1 and 3.4 for men and 2.5 to 5.7 for women.1 A retrospective study of English and Welsh doctors showed elevated suicide rates in female but not male physicians compared with the general population.10 There are no recent studies of suicide rates among U.S. physicians. A 1984-1995 study showed that white male physicians have a higher risk for suicide than other white male professionals.11 A survey of 4,500 women physicians found that female doctors are less likely to attempt suicide than the general female population6; however, their attempts more often are lethal, perhaps because they have greater knowledge of toxicology and access to lethal drugs.12"

So not only did female physicans attempt suicide less then their counterparts, their rates are higher because they were just more successful at it. You know, having knowledge on how the body works and how drugs works probably helps in the lethality of any suicide attempt.

*sry 4 posting the first 2 articles I saw bc I don't care 2 argue w/ the keyboard warrior*

My original (and current) argument was that the financial stress due to increased COA is without a doubt a factor in the mental health of non trad medical students, residents, and attendings. That hasn't ever changed. Maybe you're just looking to argue?
"Drivers of burnout include workload, work inefficiency, lack of autonomy and meaning in work, and work-home conflict." I'm sorry it doesn't spell it out for you, but those definitely include the burden of money/debt. There are multiple factors involved in suicide, but money is not excluded from that list. I'll gladly post the HuffPost/CNN/etc articles that have physician's attributing debt to the suicide/depression levels amongst the current medical community if it makes you happier 🙂 I'm sure those won't suffice though.

Since you'd like to argue though, show me a study that clearly says the debt of medical school isn't a factor in suicide/depression. That's the only way I'll know I'm wrong plz.

If (when) you can't find one, let me know if this study is up to par 🙄 The relationship between personal unsecured debt and mental and physical health: a systematic review and meta-analysis. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[sullen-burger]

Gosh, lots of rudenesss, anxiety, and stress going on here.

I hope the nature of arguments on SDN isn't contributing to an environment of predispositions and risk factors that could partly lead to the consequences being discussed herein.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

You homeowners insurance is insane if that is the case.

My grandma has a 100k house that cost $1500 for homeowners. His house doesn't have to over a million to need that much.

Also I have a former highschool friend who committed suicide in the woods off the interstate. He was working in hospital as nurse at the time and had a wife and a kid. He has no news articles out there about him. Although I found an one line obituary. The point being if we don't know the guys name, and the news didn't know the story of why he died (especially since he went to out of country school) why would they report it? Unfortunately I am inclined to believe the story is true. There are too many details, just too much stuff out there.

 

[libertyyne]

*sry 4 posting the first 2 articles I saw bc I don't care 2 argue w/ the keyboard warrior*

My original (and current) argument was that the financial stress due to increased COA is without a doubt a factor in the mental health of non trad medical students, residents, and attendings. That hasn't ever changed. Maybe you're just looking to argue?
"Drivers of burnout include workload, work inefficiency, lack of autonomy and meaning in work, and work-home conflict." I'm sorry it doesn't spell it out for you, but those definitely include the burden of money/debt. There are multiple factors involved in suicide, but money is not excluded from that list. I'll gladly post the HuffPost/CNN/etc articles that have physician's attributing debt to the suicide/depression levels amongst the current medical community if it makes you happier 🙂 I'm sure those won't suffice though.

Since you'd like to argue though, show me a study that clearly says the debt of medical school isn't a factor in suicide/depression. That's the only way I'll know I'm wrong plz.

If (when) you can't find one, let me know if this study is up to par 🙄 The relationship between personal unsecured debt and mental and physical health: a systematic review and meta-analysis. - PubMed - NCBI

1.The part of you switching your argument around is evident to anyone who will read the thread.
2. Lol. Maybe you should read the articles you do post. Just because the article's title says that the article doesnt support your conclusion.
"The majority of studies found that more severe debt is related to worse health; however causality is hard to establish."

Most lung cancer patients drink a lot of coffee, does that mean coffee causes lung cancer? Plus when you get sick you loose your job and you dont have money to pay bills not to mention the insane cost of obtaining medical care .

3. The onus is on you, you made the claim, you support your claim.
4. I am still waiting for an answer as to why the European physicians who dont have the same debt burdens commit suicide at a higher rate, or that physicans in the 1900-1990's who didnt have the same debt burden committed suicide at higher rates. Or if there is a linear relationship between increasing debt.
5. I am not saying that the debt increases are unsustainable, I agree with you on that point, But lets not pretend the sky is falling and it is has a linear correlation with suicides in physicians.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

My grandma has a 100k house that cost $1500 for homeowners. His house doesn't have to over a million to need that much.

Also I have a former highschool friend who committed suicide in the woods off the interstate. He was working in hospital as nurse at the time and had a wife and a kid. He has no news articles out there about him. Although I found an one line obituary. The point being if we don't know the guys name, and the news didn't know the story of why he died (especially since he went to out of country school) why would they report it? Unfortunately I am inclined to believe the story is true. There are too many details, just too much stuff out there.

Fair enough, but I did a quick Google search and was able to find dozens of stories of people hanging themselves in public parks (none of them fit the timeline). The news likes to latch onto things like public suicides and **** because they're disgusting leeches on society (the news, not people who die by suicide). I just find it unlikely that there would be tons of stories of people doing exactly this but for some reason not a single story about his brother.

 

[YoungDoc25]

1.The part of you switching your argument around is evident to anyone who will read the thread.
2. Lol. Maybe you should read the articles you do post. Just because the article's title says that the article doesnt support your conclusion.
"The majority of studies found that more severe debt is related to worse health; however causality is hard to establish."

Most lung cancer patients drink a lot of coffee, does that mean coffee causes lung cancer? Plus when you get sick you loose your job and you dont have money to pay bills not to mention the insane cost of obtaining medical care .

3. The onus is on you, you made the claim, you support your claim.
4. I am still waiting for an answer as to why the European physicians who dont have the same debt burdens commit suicide at a higher rate, or that physicans in the 1900-1990's who didnt have the same debt burden committed suicide at higher rates. Or if there is a linear relationship between increasing debt.
5. I am not saying that the debt increases are unsustainable, I agree with you on that point, But lets not pretend the sky is falling and it is has a linear correlation with suicides in physicians.

It's so easy to cherry pick an article to benefit an argument. The very next sentence is as follows:
"A meta-analysis of pooled odds ratios showed a significant relationship between debt and mental disorder (OR=3.24), depression (OR=2.77), suicide completion (OR=7.9), suicide completion or attempt (OR=5.76), problem drinking (OR=2.68), drug dependence (OR=8.57), neurotic disorder (OR=3.21) and psychotic disorders (OR=4.03). There was no significant relationship with smoking (OR=1.35, p>.05)."
Point made. My argument is valid. Period. Go blow up another post or PM me because this is pretty annoying.

 

[libertyyne]

It's so easy to cherry pick an article to benefit an argument. The very next sentence is as follows:
"A meta-analysis of pooled odds ratios showed a significant relationship between debt and mental disorder (OR=3.24), depression (OR=2.77), suicide completion (OR=7.9), suicide completion or attempt (OR=5.76), problem drinking (OR=2.68), drug dependence (OR=8.57), neurotic disorder (OR=3.21) and psychotic disorders (OR=4.03). There was no significant relationship with smoking (OR=1.35, p>.05)."
Point made. My argument is valid. Period. Go blow up another post or PM me because this is pretty annoying.

Lol. Nothing you have qouted makes your argument valid.the authors don't know if mental illness leads to debt or vice versa. I am sure physicians in France are commiting suicide at higher rates compared to the general population because of their uncontrollable student loans. the fact that women physicians attempt suicide less than their gen population peers is totally due to the debt that they have.

 

[YoungDoc25]

Lol. Nothing you have qouted makes your argument valid.the authors don't know if mental illness leads to debt or vice versa. I am sure physicians in France are commiting suicide at higher rates compared to the general population because of their uncontrollable student loans. the fact that women physicians attempt suicide less than their gen population peers is totally due to the debt that they have.

Lol yeah, sure 🙄

 

[libertyyne]

Lol yeah, sure 🙄View attachment 218771

Perhaps you should hit the ignore button if you are having difficulty defending your claims.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Perhaps you should hit the ignore button if you are having difficulty defending your claims.

So are you saying that because doctors in France are not committing suicide due to uncontrollable debt, doctors in America necessarily are not committing suicide due to uncontrollable debt? That seems like a pretty flimsy argument given that the link between outrageous debt and depression is pretty clear. Is it the only factor driving American doctors to commit suicide? Doubtful, but you guys seem to be trying to force this to be a binary issue when it is most certainly not.

 

[libertyyne]

So are you saying that because doctors in France are not committing suicide due to uncontrollable debt, doctors in America necessarily are not committing suicide due to uncontrollable debt? That seems like a pretty flimsy argument given that the link between outrageous debt and depression is pretty clear. Is it the only factor driving American doctors to commit suicide? Doubtful, but you guys seem to be trying to force this to be a binary issue when it is most certainly not.

1. The causality between mental health issues and debt is not established. People with mental health disorders probably have difficulty keeping a job down or being productive leading to going into more debt.
2. If there was such a direct causal relationship between debt and suicide we would see higher rates of suicide at higher levels of debt in a dose response form. I flippantly said France because if there was such strong causality there would be a massive difference between suicide rates of physicians in America and Europe when adjusting for general population rates.
3. Lastly, there would be an increase in suicide rates amongst physicians that would correlate with an increase in amount of debt taken on. This would be easy to show with large rate increases over time which is not the case.
4. The study regarding female physicians indicated that they attempted suicide less than the gen pop, just successfully completed it more often. So does that mean there is an inverse in the relationship between debt and suicide attempts?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

1. The causality between mental health issues and debt is not established. People with mental health disorders probably have difficulty keeping a job down or being productive leading to going into more debt.

Debt and depression

There is a positive correlation between indebtedness and psychological well-being, though responses are individual.

Debt and Depression: Causal Links and Social Norm Effects

"In the medical literature small-scale studies based on individuals exhibiting poor mental health find problem debt to be a common correlate with depression, anxiety and even self-harm (Hatcher, 1994; Maciejewski et al., 2000; Reading and Reynolds, 2001)."

Debt, social disadvantage and maternal depression

"Worry about debt was the strongest independent socioeconomic predictor of the depression score at both initial and follow-up occasions."

Income related inequalities in mental health in Great Britain: analysing the causes of health inequality over time

"It is found that subjective financial status is a major determinant of ill-health and makes a major contribution to income related inequalities in health."


I could keep going but I really don't care that much. There are literally dozens of these studies that show a link between financial difficulties and depression (to include self harm).

2. If there was such a direct causal relationship between debt and suicide we would see higher rates of suicide at higher levels of debt in a dose response form. I flippantly said France because if there was such strong causality there would be a massive difference between suicide rates of physicians in America and Europe when adjusting for general population rates.

I didn't say anything like that. I said that debt is correlated with depression, and depression is definitely causative of suicide. Sooooooo it's likely that debt plays a role in suicide, but it is more nuanced than simply debt is a primary cause of suicide or it is not a cause of suicide.

3. Lastly, there would be an increase in suicide rates amongst physicians that would correlate with an increase in amount of debt taken on. This would be easy to show with large rate increases over time which is not the case.

Would there be? If debt is a cause of depression, but is individualized, why would you expect a linear increase?

4. The study regarding female physicians indicated that they attempted suicide less than the gen pop, just successfully completed it more often. So does that mean there is an inverse in the relationship between debt and suicide attempts?

Is this a serious question?

 

[libertyyne]

Debt and depression

There is a positive correlation between indebtedness and psychological well-being, though responses are individual.

Debt and Depression: Causal Links and Social Norm Effects

"In the medical literature small-scale studies based on individuals exhibiting poor mental health find problem debt to be a common correlate with depression, anxiety and even self-harm (Hatcher, 1994; Maciejewski et al., 2000; Reading and Reynolds, 2001)."

A paragraph down
"What is more difficult to establish is causality between problem debt and psychological health. The positive relationship between the two might be explained by unobserved factors not captured in cross-section analysis, or alternatively a two-way causality.1 Also, an individual’s perception of the severity of their debt problems may be affected by their psychological health state. An individual with poor psychological health might be more, or less, inclined to subjectively report they are struggling with debts compared to an individual with good psychological health in the same financial situation. "

Debt, social disadvantage and maternal depression

"Worry about debt was the strongest independent socioeconomic predictor of the depression score at both initial and follow-up occasions."

Income related inequalities in mental health in Great Britain: analysing the causes of health inequality over time

"It is found that subjective financial status is a major determinant of ill-health and makes a major contribution to income related inequalities in health."

You do realize being a physician and being up in the SES ladder would give protective effects based on the studies you linked above. Plus there is difference between worrying about debt being at a lower SES level where you might not be able to eat , vs worrying about debt where you might not be able to buy a tesla.

I could keep going but I really don't care that much. There are literally dozens of these studies that show a link between financial difficulties and depression (to include self harm).

The studies you keep on linking are going on an on about how it is a two way street not necessarily causal in nature, and they speak to more of an SES deprviation in debt.

I didn't say anything like that. I said that debt is correlated with depression, and depression is definitely causative of suicide. Sooooooo it's likely that debt plays a role in suicide, but it is more nuanced than simply debt is a primary cause of suicide or it is not a cause of suicide.

I am saying we have clear changes in levels of debt in a population, if these were truly impacting them in such a fashion there would be changes in underlying rates. and most of this was based on the assertion below

It isn't the worst case overall though is my point. You may pay a little more in taxes, but the cost of raising a family is more (in both money and stress). I live in one of the lowest COL cities in the US and my parents together make less than half of the income we're talking about. I know what it takes to live. The example was higher than where I live, sure. But not ridiculous by any means. I'm afraid you're underestimating the cost of a family/living. I'm not insinuating that any doctor is starving, but I am definitely saying that it's not all roses for PC docs who have families with ridiculous debt. You're out of your mind if you're going through the beat down of medical school and residency just to make what the average joe makes sitting behind a cubicle. That's the point of what I'm saying though. You get to finally be a doctor and then realize you would have been better off doing something else for your family. You wasted 10 years of your life just to give away half of your paycheck every month for 5+ years. That's not the dream. That's not what you busted your butt for. The delayed gratification gets delayed again. And without the right support system, suicide becomes an option for some. It happens yearly, so I'm not sure what you're trying to argue.

I am not arguing that being poorer is not worse for your health. I am merely saying that saying that physicians are killing themselves because of their debt ratio's is a little absurd.

Saying this guy who has 300k+ in debt and no ability to pay it off is the same situation as a PCP with 300K of debt and they are both likely to commit suicide due to it is an absurd thing to say.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

A paragraph down
"What is more difficult to establish is causality between problem debt and psychological health. The positive relationship between the two might be explained by unobserved factors not captured in cross-section analysis, or alternatively a two-way causality.1 Also, an individual’s perception of the severity of their debt problems may be affected by their psychological health state. An individual with poor psychological health might be more, or less, inclined to subjectively report they are struggling with debts compared to an individual with good psychological health in the same financial situation. "




You do realize being a physician and being up in the SES ladder would give protective effects based on the studies you linked above. Plus there is difference between worrying about debt being at a lower SES level where you might not be able to eat , vs worrying about debt where you might not be able to buy a tesla.


The studies you keep on linking are going on an on about how it is a two way street not necessarily causal in nature, and they speak to more of an SES deprviation in debt.



I am saying we have clear changes in levels of debt in a population, if these were truly impacting them in such a fashion there would be changes in underlying rates. and most of this was based on the assertion below




I am not arguing that being poorer is not worse for your health. I am merely saying that saying that physicians are killing themselves because of their debt ratio's is a little absurd.

Saying this guy who has 300k+ in debt and no ability to pay it off is the same situation as a PCP with 300K of debt and they are both likely to commit suicide due to it is an absurd thing to say.

I'm going to try to say this as clearly as possible. My assertion was that:

1) indebtedness is correlated with depression, albeit in an individualized way
2) depression is highly linked with suicide
3) because of 1) and 2), indebtedness probably plays a role in suicide, but on an individual level.

Nothing you have said refutes that, and you seem to be fixating on the idea that debt causes suicide, which is not even close to what I originally said.

Also, as someone who has been so poor that I didn't know where my next meal was going to come from and who now has to be frugal so that I can support my wife and kids, financial struggles are stressful no matter the SES level. You mischaracterizing it as someone who is depressed because they can't afford a Tesla is ridiculous and not the argument at all.

 

[JB50]

Gotta agree with @Goro here. Suicide itself is on the rise nationally. Can't blame the institution.

Mental health is the root cause. Regardless of how you want to paint the picture, who you want to blame, the end result is a suicide. And it sucks.

 

[RoygBiv3765]

Gotta agree with @Goro here. Suicide itself is on the rise nationally. Can't blame the institution.

Mental health is the root cause. Regardless of how you want to paint the picture, who you want to blame, the end result is a suicide. And it sucks.

Third leading cause of death in US. I am sure everyone knows.

 

[JB50]

Third leading cause of death in US. I am sure everyone knows.

People know you shouldn't smoke and over eat. What's the point of your post? Any?

 

[RoygBiv3765]

People know you shouldn't smoke and over eat. What's the point of your post? Any?

Not all health professionals know that. Anyway, BEAT IT.

 

[acapnial]

Third leading cause of death in US. I am sure everyone knows.

Chronic lower respiratory disease?

 

[JB50]

Not all health professionals know that. Anyway, BEAT IT.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Third leading cause of death in US. I am sure everyone knows.

Ironic, since it's the tenth leading cause of death according to AFSP.