Caribbean to US MD

[Angus Avagadro]

This statement is totally false and frankly a little insulting. I think you meant to say a physician (MD) = physician (DO) = physician (IMG), which I would totally agree with. However, if you actually believe MD = DO in terms of opportunities and benefits you are delusional and in fairytale land. The residency placement opportunities inherent to a USMD school is far greater than that for DOs. One only has to look at the highly competitive residencies to see most of the slots go to MDs, leading to a difference in the outcome between these two degrees in the US. That's one of the reasons I worked my ass off in UG, to get into a MD school where I can have better opportunities.

I'm beginning to think you will see more DOs at the so called competetive residencies now that they are all under ACGME. Before, there was an attitude of "DOs have their own residencies, it's not our job to train them". I have actually heard these comments years ago. Now, since the process and exams are all basically the same, I think DO opportunities might increase. Recent match data is positive and moving in that direction.

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[LunaOri]

One of the best students I have ever had in my department went to a Caribbean school. I was shocked to find that she had never applied to US schools. She was older (40) and had an advanced degree; she didn't want to have to re-take the prerequisite courses, and the Caribbean route meant a guaranteed acceptance.

 

[Goro]

The point is not that there are successful Carib grads, but how many more obstacles that they face.

Just wander into the Caribbean or General Residency forums, and you'd be surprised how many threads there are that start out "Help! Didn't match...what do I do now?"

As an exercise, search SDN for "didn't match" or "dismissed from medical school"

And if you want to play anecdotes I can give you two as well

1) Student goes to a DO school (mine) and is now a neurosurgeon

2) Student goes to SGU, fails out, and is now driving for Uber with a six figure debt. Now trying to get into an SMP (mine).

 

[Med Ed]

Lot of them do know, but they know their limitations (standardized tests anxiety) or they think any residency is fine (just like any US medical school is fine) and don't want to "waste" years and think extra cost of Carribean is recouped by entering workforce early.

Two examples.
Student #1 got very low MCAT and parents (both doctors) realized chances of getting higher score is less, opted for Caribbean, finished in 4 years and immediately matched.

Student #2, Got decent MCAT first time, don't want to go to Carribean or DO and took 3 gap years, took MCAT three more times (no improvement), finally got one expensive DO, again struggled with USMLE Step 1 and is not fully satisfied with match outcome.

Both are same age, which one came out ahead?

Comparing cherry-picked examples is meaningless. Comparing aggregate outcome data for osteopathic and (where available) Caribbean pathways is more illuminating.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

The point is not that there are successful Carib grads, but how many more obstacles that they face.

Just wander into the Caribbean or General Residency forums, and you'd be surprised how many threads there are that start out "Help! Didn't match...what do I do now?"

As an exercise, search SDN for "didn't match" or "dismissed from medical school"


and if you want to play anecdotes I can give you two as well

Student goes to a DO school and is now a neurosurgeon


Student goes to SGU, fails out, and is now driving for Uber with a six figure debt.

Comparing cherry-picked examples is meaningless. Comparing aggregate outcome data for osteopathic and (where available) Caribbean pathways is more illuminating.

My argument is outright bashing of Carrib or CNU or some other medical schools is not helpful, but discussing pros and cons is.

 

[Goro]

My argument is outright bashing of Carrib or CNU or some other medical schools is not helpful, but discussing pros and cons is. I am advising my niece to try for DO before thinking about Caribbean.

Medical schools that engage in educational malpractice deserve to be bashed.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Medical schools that engage in educational malpractice deserve to be bashed.

OK, bash the schools but not the students who opted to go to for profits

 

[gyngyn]

OK, bash the schools but not the students who opted to go to for profits

It is my practice to do what I can to educate, explain and even discourage...up to the point that they matriculate. Then, I leave them alone and wish them well.

 

[HopeP]

or misinformation which both students and advisors keep passing on. I finally dropped out of the NAAHP posting board a few years ago mostly due to arguing with so many advisors, much of it about off shore schools and residency

Still at the end of the day after navigating all misinformation, working hard in academics, earnings dictated by an insurance company. Healthcare ecosystem imbalance begins with education. On one hand we have scarce Drs supply, on other hand number of applications increases with relatively same number of seats.

 

[Goro]

OK, bash the schools but not the students who opted to go to for profits

We have no ill will to the students; I view them as victims. However, the mindset that the OP first presented is objectionable.

 

[KnightDoc]

Actually US Medical school seats have increased by 30% in the past decade. The issue is the way that federal government funding of residency training slots, primarily based on long-standing formulas from the original Medicare of 1965 have meant that post-graduate training positions have increased at a much slower rate. With the legislative dysfunction in Washington, there is unlikely any major change in this anytime soon

Sure, but TBH (and not to get too political), as long as there is enough funding for at least one post-graduate training position for every US medical school graduate, I'm not sure that it should be a priority for Congress to fund more spots for IMGs and FMGs.

If some IMGs and FMGs happen to be more desirable candidates than US graduates, so be it. Presumably, that will always fuel the dream that drives the off-shore business model. The only way to really shut it down would be to make IMGs ineligible for US residencies, but that will never work because, as in other parts of the US labor market, there are some positions that US graduates just won't take (even after the 30% increase), so at least some SGU graduates are actually needed! This doesn't make the Caribbean business model any less vile, but it is an indisputable fact.

 

[HopeP]

Sure, but TBH (and not to get too political), as long as there is enough funding for at least one post-graduate training position for every US medical school graduate, I'm not sure that it should be a priority for Congress to fund more spots for IMGs and FMGs.

If some IMGs and FMGs happen to be more desirable candidates than US graduates, so be it. Presumably, that will always fuel the dream that drives the off-shore business model. The only way to really shut it down would be to make IMGs ineligible for US residencies, but that will never work because, as in other parts of the US labor market, there are some positions that US graduates just won't take (even after the 30% increase), so at least some SGU graduates are actually needed! This doesn't make the Caribbean business model any less vile, but it is an indisputable fact.

Whatever SGU academics qualities, but its campus is gorgeous, worth to spend vacation, how long is the question.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

We have no ill will to the students; I view them as victims. However, the mindset that the OP first presented is objectionable.

I do agree on that mindset OP presented is objectionable but we quickly switched to how poor the choice of going to Caribbean itself is.

 

[Goro]

I do agree on that mindset OP presented is objectionable but we quickly switched to how poor the choice of going to Caribbean itself is.

Because it IS a poor choice.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Because it IS a poor choice.

So you never recommend Caribbean under any circumstances?

 

[gyngyn]

So you never recommend Caribbean under any circumstances?

A US applicant who has applied at least twice to MD and DO schools with an intervening amount of time to address deficiencies and who has the independent means to pay off the cost of attendance if they fall into the majority who will not be able to discharge the cost of attendance might consider a Caribbean application. It is also ok for those who want a "vanity" degree.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

A person who has applied at least twice to MD and DO schools with an intervening amount of time to address deficiencies and who has the independent means to pay off the cost of attendance if they fall into the majority who will not be able to discharge the cost of attendance might consider a Caribbean application. It is also ok for those who want a "vanity" degree.

That's reasonable, but I don't get the vanity degree part. What about new one, University of Queensland Ochsner program? Low 500s MCAT and 3.6 GPA (ORM) and hasn't tried for DO yet. My recommendation was to try for DO this cycle or take MCAT one more time and try next cycle, but kids not always listen

 

[gyngyn]

That's reasonable, but I don't get the vanity degree part.

It's a "bucket list" issue. They want to tell folks that they are a "doctor." They have no intention of practicing. I actually think this is a far better use (waste) of their time and money than using valuable resources here in the US.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

It's a "bucket list" issue. They want to tell folks that they are a "doctor." They have no intention of practicing. I actually think this is a far better use (waste) of their time and money than using valuable resources here in the US.

Why would anyone spend 1/2M for that? The few I know are not like that, may be I am in a bubble

 

[gyngyn]

Why would anyone spend 1/2M for that? The few I know are not like that, may be I am in a bubble

You are in a bubble. Bless your heart.

 

[stickgirl390]

People come to SDN for realistic advice, not hugs and kisses.

Lol, if y’all can’t handle @Goro ’s realism on SDN, wait till you get pimped for the first time on rounds. #RIP Medicine is not for the fragile ego.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

@gyngyn - Any opinion on University of Queensland Ochsner program?

 

[gyngyn]

@gyngyn - Any opinion on University of Queensland Ochsner program?

We have an inadequate amount of verifiable information on outcomes for me to have an opinion.

 

[M&L]

You are in a bubble. Bless your heart.

I am not from the South, but my friend is, and she told me so much about "Bless your heart" phrase... hahahhaa (English is my 3rd language, so she was explaining to me how to understand locals when i was stationed in the South).

 

[gyngyn]

I am not from the South, but my friend is, and she told me so much about "Bless your heart" phrase... hahahhaa (English is my 3rd language, so she was explaining to me how to understand locals when i was stationed in the South).

I don't mean it quite that harshly...

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I am not from the South, but my friend is, and she told me so much about "Bless your heart" phrase... hahahhaa (English is my 3rd language, so she was explaining to me how to understand locals when i was stationed in the South).

I lived in south and I know that phrase can be used in different ways.I don't think in this context, true meaning was intended but that's OK.

 

[KnightDoc]

Throughout the history of the US, we have depended on foreign trained doctors to provide a large fraction of all physicians. Since the US has mandated American residency training in order to gain a license to practice, it is to the benefit of the population that we increase the slots to provide that training. Else we are only shorting healthcare for our own citizens.

Throughout the history of the US, fine, especially when medicine was not deemed to be as attractive an opportunity as it is today, and the supply/demand imbalance between seats and candidates wasn't so striking. In today's "dysfunctional" (as you pointed out) and xenophobic environment, it's probably a bit much for that view to have widespread support in the country while there is a surplus of highly qualified American students who cannot gain entry into American medical schools.

In any event, providing highly qualified FMGs an opportunity to practice is very different from having taxpayers create more slots so the SGUs of the world can make even more money. To bring the conversation back on point, yes, American seats increased 30% over the past decade, and yes, residency slots have increased at a slower rate, and, yes, there is still more than one residency slot for every American medical school seat, so, no, Congress is not going to make up the difference, and yes, that shortfall will cause there to be less slots for IMGs and FMGs.

The present day trend appears to be to create more American seats, and not to create more residency slots for Caribbean graduates to fill. Given the high admission standards of the Caribbean schools, this is not a terrible thing. It would be to the benefit of the population that we increase American seats and residency slots to address the shortage. Let's do that and watch the fireworks begin as supply begins to meet demand and physician incomes react the way the free market dictates that they will when a supply/demand imbalance is addressed.

Shorting healthcare for our own citizens has probably been a goal of the AMA/AAMC/USMLE (or whoever is responsible for gate keeping the profession) for as long as you have been alive as a means of protecting physician incomes. Otherwise, why the hell has there been a doctor shortage in the US for forever? A lack of domestic interest in the profession? A lack of qualified candidates? A lack of resources to build schools? A collective lack of the necessary intelligence to identify the issue and address it? Or maybe, just maybe, by design!!!

 

[Goro]

So you never recommend Caribbean under any circumstances?

Only to the loose cannons on SDN who deserve it.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Only to the loose cannons on SDN who deserve it.

Going by the reputation on SDN, I don't think anyone will ask for it LOL

 

[Goro]

Throughout the history of the US, fine, especially when medicine was not deemed to be as attractive an opportunity as it is today, and the supply/demand imbalance between seats and candidates wasn't so striking. In today's "dysfunctional" (as you pointed out) and xenophobic environment, it's probably a bit much for that view to have widespread support in the country while there is a surplus of highly qualified American students who cannot gain entry into American medical schools.

In any event, providing highly qualified FMGs an opportunity to practice is very different from having taxpayers create more slots so the SGUs of the world can make even more money. To bring the conversation back on point, yes, American seats increased 30% over the past decade, and yes, residency slots have increased at a slower rate, and, yes, there is still more than one residency slot for every American medical school seat, so, no, Congress is not going to make up the difference, and yes, that shortfall will cause there to be less slots for IMGs and FMGs.

The present day trend appears to be to create more American seats, and not to create more residency slots for Caribbean graduates to fill. Given the high admission standards of the Caribbean schools, this is not a terrible thing. It would be to the benefit of the population that we increase American seats and residency slots to address the shortage. Let's do that and watch the fireworks begin as supply begins to meet demand and physician incomes react the way the free market dictates that they will when a supply/demand imbalance is addressed.

Shorting healthcare for our own citizens has probably been a goal of the AMA/AAMC/USMLE (or whoever is responsible for gate keeping the profession) for as long as you have been alive as a means of protecting physician incomes. Otherwise, why the hell has there been a doctor shortage in the US for forever? A lack of domestic interest in the profession? A lack of qualified candidates? A lack of resources to build schools? A collective lack of the necessary intelligence to identify the issue and address it? Or maybe, just maybe, by design!!!

There is no doctor shortage. There IS a maldistribution.

 

[KnightDoc]

Going by the reputation on SDN, I don't think anyone will ask for it LOL

You haven't been paying attention -- it happens all the time!!

 

[Medical_studies]

Carib and queensland program are really bad ideas for you OP. You are way too good for that kind of stuff!!

You are from an Ivy League School, the top of the top. You are letting impatience and the fact that you can't get over two letters, "D" and "O" keep you from having a great life! I had a friend who didn't have a face (lost it in war) who worked harder than me and was better than me in every aspect, but I was in a lucky situation and am going to be a doctor and have a great life, and he had only misfortune his whole life and sadly it did not end well.

You have that lucky situation too and you are smart with that 3.9 gpa. if you go to Carib or queensland, the reality will strike and you will have so much regret at what could have been. Take advantage of your lucky situation, don't let inpatience get in the way and destroy your life! Things are not how you see them right now, I know what the Caribbean is; trust me it is not for you. The world is your oyster and you can have and achieve anything anybody could ever want in life, and greatly impact others as well as long as you stay in the United States! Once you go, it could be all over

 

[Doctoscope]

Curious as to why Carib MDs are called "MD" programs. It's very obvious the standards for these schools are quite low. Is there an "MD" accreditation body? Is that the AAMC? If so, how come the Carib schools were accredited?

 

[Medical_studies]

They have regional accreditation bodies and some states (CA, NY, FL, etc) have to individually approve them. They have other accreditation bodies as as well. More matching US MD's come from St. George than any US school, accept maybe Indiana. But not trying to endorse them to OP! It is a hail mary if you really, really messed up and would rather not exist than not be a doctor. Because if you don't succeed, which is most people, the debt will make it hard for you to exist.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

So you never recommend Caribbean under any circumstances?

No

 

[Angus Avagadro]

You are in a bubble. Bless your heart.

You must be from the South!

 

[ASociety'sShade]

2) Student goes to SGU, fails out, and is now driving for Uber with a six figure debt. Now trying to get into an SMP (mine).

My heart hurts for this student =/

 

[Damson]

@Uncreative2 UQ-Ochsner (for sure), USydney (maybe), Flinders (sdn founder's school), and Sackler (yes) will do the job for those who want to return to states. Might be one or two more (non-Caribbean) recognized international schools that'll work fine. You'll have to do your research

 

[HopeP]

Bubble-->South-->Disney-->Orlando !