Caught a student cheating before a test....

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leonardoson

leonardoson

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A student that I have become an acquaintance with was trying to write down review problems and answers in these guides that we get to have during tests. I called her out on it and said that she has cheated in past classes. I feel obligated to tell the Professors about this. What I was thinking was letting the Professors know that this is a possibility that people can cheat without revealing her identity. What are your thoughts?
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Lol just move on with your life and spend that time on making yourself a better candidate…

If you're afraid that this one person will be the difference between you getting into med school or not then surprise, this likely happens errrrwhere.
 
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EDIT: I can't read 🙂
 
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leonardoson said:
A student that I have become an acquaintance with was trying to write down review problems and answers in these guides that we get to have during tests. I called her out on it and said that she has cheated in past classes. I feel obligated to tell the Professors about this. What I was thinking was letting the Professors know that this is a possibility that people can cheat without revealing her identity. What are your thoughts?
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I would rat out the cheater so fast it would make their head spin. Cheaters are scumbags.
 
so you can either tell the Prof she needs to up her exam security and silently hope that the cheater is caught this time or just make sure the cheater is caught. I'd turn them in. I did it in high school, I would do it in college again. I believe in second chances but not third or fourth or fifth.
 
If someone really has to resort to cheating, especially for intro classes, I always let it go and watched them stumble out of the pre-med track within a few semesters. It's kinda sad, actually.

While I've never ratted someone out, I wouldn't hold it against someone who did. Letting cheaters get by can rightfully be seen as an insult to people who've genuinely studied hard and prepared for the exam, especially if you're graded on a curve...
 
Skydive Fox said:
If someone really has to resort to cheating, especially for intro classes, I always let it go and watched them stumble out of the pre-med track within a few semesters. It's kinda sad, actually.
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How do you know the student the OP mentioned was pre-med?
 
Cheaters never win. And no one likes a tattle. But I hate it when people who might already be advantaged still try to cheat the system to get ahead.

Tough call.

I'd confront her first. Then you can always blackmail her.
 
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Just1voice said:
Cheaters never win. And no one likes a tattle. But I hate it when people who might already be advantaged still try to cheat the system to get ahead.

Tough call.

I'd confront her first. Then you can always blackmail her.
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Turning in someone for violating their only responsibility as a student is questionable but blackmail is A-OK!
 
FactorV said:
I would rat out the cheater so fast it would make their head spin. Cheaters are scumbags.
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So are snitches.
FactorV said:
As potential future health professionals, realize that as professionals we are expected to police our own ranks. That means "tattling". Now I realize that, in the healthcare setting, this is an issue of patient safety not of grades. Still, get used to the idea of policing your own ranks now.
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Wtf? No.

''I realize these situations are not analogous, but still.''
 
@Lucca

4b52d864bdb43f2495a7b183553fa6ee72534f1aa5b3e7531294a6ec9672b8cb.jpg
 
You don't want to be that guy/girl who turns someone in for cheating. If this fellow student outdoes you on the exam(s), so be it. They cheated, wouldn't you expect them to have an advantage?

Definitely leave it alone. Focus on YOU and how well you can do without cheating. The only thing you could perhaps do is bring it up to the student and explain the risks
 
The reading comprehension in this thread is abhorrent. You'd hope that prospective doctors wouldn't be within the subcategory of people who read things to verify their opinions.
 
How exactly do you cheat before an exam? I'm genuinely curious. Usually the cheating occurs during an exam. At any rate, why were you checking what someone else was doing instead of handling your own business?
 
akinetopsia said:
How exactly do you cheat before an exam? I'm genuinely curious. Usually the cheating occurs during an exam. At any rate, why were you checking what someone else was doing instead of handling your own business?
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Good point...

And OP said they had some sort of sheet they were allowed to have during the exam, and the cheater was writing review questions and answers on that sheet.

Which brings up another point...if this person needs to cheat on an exam where a guide sheet is allowed during the exam, it sounds like they have greater problems. Doesn't seem like the type who will make it very far.
 
They let you have a guide for exams, but don't let you include practice problems in the guides? Odd...what are you supposed to use the guide for then? Can't they just give you the equations?

If I had proof someone was cheating, I'd anonymously send it to the prof. But in this case if you report it, won't it just be your word against theirs?
 
gonnif said:
I find rather interesting that, except for the above comment, most replies here have been to stay out of it, mind your own business, the cheater will get caught eventually, etc. Most students here, I dare say, go to institutions where there is an honor code where no only cheating is prohibited but the duty to directly report any instances of cheating or the indirect duty of upholding the code for the good of the community which implies the same. In other words, not reporting cheating that you have first hand knowledge of is as much of a violation of honor code as the cheating itself. Rarely, of course is this enforced. And students ask why should they put in time and effort, risk criticism of fellow students, and generally put themselves out there for such a thing?

At some point in your medical training (and careers for that matter) will either make a mistake or see someone make a mistake that will endanger a patient. It may be a fellow student, or it could be a resident above you. Or even an attending. How do you deal with the situation? Lets assume for a moment the mistake never gets reported and patient dies. Is the person who saw the error and did not report it as responsible for the patient death as the one who actually made the mistake.

I assure you all of you will be in some situation where a dilemma like this will be in your future. How will you deal with it? In this thread it is simply cheating on a test. on paper so do speak. What about cheating on a medical record? Where that might lead down the road when you should have said something? Something to think about as you go on in your medical careers
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If I'm on an honor code to report what I witness, then I report it. If I'm not, then I don't. Jesus Christ since when is being a snitch the ethical thing to do?

Edit: and for the love of god can we quit comparing patient safety to pre-med tests?
 
Affiche said:
since when is being a snitch the ethical thing to do?
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Why do you think universities have harsh punishments against cheating? We've had this discussion so many times. I can understand if you just dgaf, I cannot fathom how you struggle to see an issue with widespread unreported cheating.
 
Can't believe so many people wouldn't report cheating. Is cheating a quality you want in a future physician? For those that say "it'll catch up," that's not always the case.

I don't believe in karma and I guarantee there are people who cheat a few times and are still succesful in the long run, maybe they cheat on a particular test because they didn't study for it but then afterwards step it up.

In addition, cheating is against all school codes of conduct and it's your duty as a student and future physician to report cheating and unreported mistakes.

If you really want to go with premed logic, won't a cheater's score hurt the curve if your class has one?
 
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efle said:
Why do you think universities have harsh punishments against cheating? We've had this discussion so many times. I can understand if you just dgaf, I cannot fathom how you struggle to see an issue with widespread unreported cheating.
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Mostly I just don't gaf, but there's also nothing more annoying than a meddlesome little pre-med who's got his nose in other peoples' business.

The severity of punishment doesn't indicate much about the crime. Universities are notorious for mishandling sexual assault cases and giving a slap on the wrist to reported aggressors, but if someone reports cheating all of a sudden the burden for evidence is minimal and the punishment is severe. It would be foolish to look use the level of punishment administered as a measuring stick for how damaging the behavior is.
 
gonnif said:
So tell me how the concept of being a "snitch" differs from any two situations? Do you weigh the impact of the action in order to decide? What criteria is appropriate? Is snitching then unethical? Would anyone say agree to that? Class?
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Cheating is arguably a victimless crime. If it's not hurting anyone (and no, I don't care about your curve) then it's none of my business. If some brat wants to blow his money on a degree and learn nothing then that's on him, not me. But, if I'm on an honor code and I'm incriminating myself by not reporting it, then that's a different story.
 
Affiche said:
Mostly I just don't gaf, but there's also nothing more annoying than a meddlesome little pre-med who's got his nose in other peoples' business.

The severity of punishment doesn't indicate much about the crime. Universities are notorious for mishandling sexual assault cases and giving a slap on the wrist to reported aggressors, but if someone reports cheating all of a sudden the burden for evidence is minimal and the punishment is severe. It would be foolish to look use the level of punishment administered as a measuring stick for how damaging the behavior is.
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Let's say I buy your argument about severity of punishment being a mismatch for severity of offense. This implies you still think there is still some punishment merited. Why? Or do you believe universities are being ridiculous for fighting plagiarism or cheating at all, it really is a victimless crime, and what would make the most sense is never taking any action against cheaters?
 
efle said:
Let's say I buy your argument about severity of punishment being a mismatch for severity of offense. This implies you still think there is still some punishment merited. Why? Or do you believe universities are being ridiculous for fighting plagiarism or cheating at all, it really is a victimless crime, and what would make the most sense is never taking any action against cheaters?
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Well, it takes away the validity of the degree the institution is awarding, so it's in the best interest of the university to protect from cheating. Is it the responsibility of other pre-meds to police for the university? **** no.
 
Affiche said:
Cheating is arguably a victimless crime. If it's not hurting anyone (and no, I don't care about your curve) then it's none of my business.
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You think there is no negative effect on anybody for grades to lose their integrity? The best an honest student can do is a B- because much of the class is using pictures someone snuck of the exam, and that doesn't strike you as a problem?

Affiche said:
Well, it takes away the validity of the degree the institution is awarding...Is it the responsibility of other pre-meds to police for the university?
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You say this like a university doesn't largely consist of the students passing through it. A degree losing validity doesn't just affect some nebulous University administration, it affects everyone holding that degree.
 
One little thing probably being left out here is well, there is zero form of any proof being demonstrated here. Basically one students word vs another, both of which are part of a pre med group that has a reputation for being hypercompetitive and cutthroat. Youll have to forgive the professor for probably not feeling that is compelling evidence enough to grant something as serious as an IA that will destroy that students future.

The one thing Ill comment about this is I do always find it interesting how despite people citing the individual rules a school has about cheating and citing them as a way to justify conduct, even those who support turning in cheaters will try to draw analogies of the situation as part of their logic such as comparing this to residents doing dangerous things to patients. It never is really completely about what the school stipulations state, even for those who choose to follow them.
 
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Lets say people figured out a way to cheat on the MCAT - do you see any ethical logic that says making this known is a good thing? Or do you have a responsibility to protect a cheating stranger that trumps the importance of integrity in the system?
 
Affiche said:
Mostly I just don't gaf, but there's also nothing more annoying than a meddlesome little pre-med who's got his nose in other peoples' business.
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Just the opinion of a meddlesome graduating 4th year med student: you need to care about the academic integrity of the people you will have as your future colleagues. That being said, I acknowledge that I can't make you care, and that we probably will be unable to find common ground on this matter.
 
efle said:
You think there is no negative effect on anybody for grades to lose their integrity? The best an honest student can do is a B- because much of the class is using pictures someone snuck of the exam, and that doesn't strike you as a problem?


You say this like a university doesn't largely consist of the students passing through it. A degree losing validity doesn't just affect some nebulous University administration, it affects everyone holding that degree.
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I'm not convinced that an idiot cheating affects the curve so much that an honest A student now drops to a B-.

efle said:
Lets say people figured out a way to cheat on the MCAT - do you see any ethical logic that says making this known is a good thing? Or do you have a responsibility to protect a cheating stranger that trumps the importance of integrity in the system?
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The University is a business and it's their responsibility to ensure that their degrees are worth value, not mine. When I chose where I'd get my degree, I made an educated investment and chose a school whose degree is valuable. Perhaps if the school wants to ensure protection against cheating, they should make exams that are more likely to be cheater-proof (like the MCAT or open-book exams) and rely on their paid faculty and staff to catch and report cheating, not students.
 
Interesting that there have always been these four themes going on in SDN preallo

1. Ethics of cheating
2. Ethics of single payer healthcare
3. URM admissions
4. MD vs DO vs Carib

The last two luckily got crushed by a new Lee sticky. So preallo automatically focuses on 1 and 2 on a regular basis, with the arguments being respectively:

1. You should report cheating because it's moral vs you should do nothing because snitches get stitches

2. Single payer is good per economic and moral sense vs doctors shouldn't become slaves to the government and be forced to offer free service

And as such, the threads somehow get to several pages in few hours with positions on both sides being mostly unchanged and compromise couldn't be found. So well done guys.
 
@Affiche How is it snitching when the OP didn't have the intention to report an individual, but to update the professor on a potential flaw in how they administer the test?

@Lawper When you ignore the specific situation of the OP and have a tangentially broader conversation about a more popular topic, then it's not surprising that threads like these get explosive.
 
GrapesofRath said:
One little thing probably being left out here is well, there is zero form of any proof being demonstrated here. Basically one students word vs another, both of which are part of a pre med group that has a reputation for being hypercompetitive and cutthroat. Youll have to forgive the professor for probably not feeling that is compelling evidence enough to grant something as serious as an IA that will destroy that students future.
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I applaud you for staying on topic. 🙂
 
FactorV said:
Just the opinion of a meddlesome graduating 4th year med student: you need to care about the academic integrity of the people you will have as your future colleagues. That being said, I acknowledge that I can't make you care, and that we probably will be unable to find common ground on this matter.
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Lol being a 4th year medical student doesn't make what you say correct. But you're right, we won't agree on this one.
 
It's astounding to me that members of a pre-professional forum are resorting to shaming OP for being a "snitch" when he would be acting in accordance with the honor code that requires members of an academic community to maintain the integrity of that community. The OP said absolutely nothing about wanting to report the person for the purpose of pre-med competition, but because he witnessed a violation and are trying to maintain the ethics of their community

Affiche said:
So are snitches.
''
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SnakeDoc9497 said:
You don't want to be that guy/girl who turns someone in for cheating. If this fellow student outdoes you on the exam(s), so be it. They cheated, wouldn't you expect them to have an advantage?

Definitely leave it alone. Focus on YOU and how well you can do without cheating. The only thing you could perhaps do is bring it up to the student and explain the risks
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akinetopsia said:
At any rate, why were you checking what someone else was doing instead of handling your own business?
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gonnif said:
So your view that if it is "legal" then it is allowable, but the question is it ethical?
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It comes down to minding your own business. It isn't the business of other students to police each other, it's the business of faculty.
 
Affiche said:
I'm not convinced that an idiot cheating affects the curve so much that an honest A student now drops to a B-.


The University is a business and it's their responsibility to ensure that their degrees are worth value, not mine. When I chose where I'd get my degree, I made an educated investment and chose a school whose degree is valuable. Perhaps if the school wants to ensure protection against cheating, they should make exams that are more likely to be cheater-proof (like the MCAT or open-book exams) and rely on their paid faculty and staff to catch and report cheating, not students.
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Treat it as a thought experiment - cheating gets widespread enough that the portion cheating is a larger value than the portion being awarded competitive grades. Any problem here? Does the magnitude of the issue flip some ethical switch? At what arbitrary threshold does it become a problem?

We might be talking past each other on this point. I agree that the reason to report a cheater is not out of some duty as a conscripted police force for a company. Its out of duty to fellow honest students, the university is just the means for removing the problem.

You didn't actually answer my question about the MCAT. Would you see reason to report a breach you saw in the integrity of MCAT administration?
 
efle said:
Treat it as a thought experiment - cheating gets widespread enough that the portion cheating is a larger value than the portion being awarded competitive grades. Any problem here? Does the magnitude of the issue flip some ethical switch? At what arbitrary threshold does it become a problem?

We might be talking past each other on this point. I agree that the reason to report a cheater is not out of some duty as a conscripted police force for a company. Its out of duty to fellow honest students, the university is just the means for removing the problem.

You didn't actually answer my question about the MCAT. Would you see reason to report a breach you saw in the integrity of MCAT administration?
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If cheating becomes such a widespread problem that it's more common to happen than not, then the institution needs to take responsibility to fix the situation. I agree that cheating is wrong and that when cheaters are caught they deserve their punishment, but I don't believe it to be the responsibility of other students to identify and report cheating.

My feelings are the same towards the MCAT. Why wouldn't they be? There are paid proctors administering the MCAT, let them do their job.
itmeowsback said:
Do you know how much easier it would be for students to cheat if other students did not report it? The security in most universities is not the best, and often there are only a few professors or TAs present to monitor others. Think what would happen if all students had the same moral code as yours. Cheating would be far more prevalent and people WILL be negatively effected, either by stricter school policies, poor school reputation, and yes, a far harsher curve.

I also wonder if you've read through your school's honor code. In every policy I've seen, reporting infractions against the honor code is an explicit responsibility.
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I'm way out of undergrad, kiddo. When I was in college, our exam rooms had more than enough TA's walking up and down aisles during exams to make sure there wasn't cheating. Professors were also present, of course. We had plenty of open-note exams too, which makes it pretty hard to cheat. So idk, I guess my perspective on this subject comes from the fact that my University did protect against cheating so I never felt obligated to get involved.
Sardinia said:
Sorry, I like to use images/diagrams to explain concepts students might have trouble understanding.
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I'm not a student and I think you're having trouble understanding the concept yourself.
 
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