Caught a student cheating before a test....

[SnakeDoc9497]

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It's astounding to me that members of a pre-professional forum are resorting to shaming OP for being a "snitch" when he would be acting in accordance with the honor code that requires members of an academic community to maintain the integrity of that community. The OP said absolutely nothing about wanting to report the person for the purpose of pre-med competition, but because he witnessed a violation and are trying to maintain the ethics of their community

Sounds a little like shaming to me as well....Ted

 

[Lawpy]

@Lawper When you ignore the specific situation of the OP and have a tangentially broader conversation about a more popular topic, then it's not surprising that threads like these get explosive.

The arguments so far remain the same to the broader concepts. It's moral to report cheating vs mind your own business. And we hit 50+ posts pretty quickly with no compromise in sight.

 

[Lawpy]

I love how judgemental people are here about people following basic ethical principles. I also love that people are so wrapped up in being a pre-med that some people advise, "just be a pre-med, nothing else matters."

So you concur with @gonnif arguments?

 

[Imperius]

At many schools, knowing about academic dishonesty and not reporting it is grounds for institutional action. Food for thought.

 

[Sardinia]

The arguments so far remain the same to the broader concepts. It's moral to report cheating vs mind your own business. And we hit 50+ posts pretty quickly with no compromise in sight.

Generalizing a conversation is what ignorant people do in order to feel like they can contribute. When you broaden a conversation to simple concepts where everyone has a pre-formulated opinion, then it's no surprise that these threads get popular. If you see picture threads on other forums they usually have some of the highest hits and feature people's faces. Everyone has a face, much like everyone has an opinion on weather, school, or Donald Trump. The reason why these threads always gravitate around the same base nature on subsequent iterations is because when you don't put a lot of effort into contributing to something there are only a limited number of various outcomes that are likely to result from it that someone else hasn't already stated.

 

[efle]

If cheating becomes such a widespread problem that it's more common to happen than not, then the institution needs to take responsibility to fix the situation. I agree that cheating is wrong and that when cheaters are caught they deserve their punishment, but I don't believe it to be the responsibility of other students to identify and report cheating.

My feelings are the same towards the MCAT. Why wouldn't they be? There are paid proctors administering the MCAT, let them do their job.

If the cheater being caught and punished is a good outcome, what is the ethical logic that makes it matter who catches/reports them? What duty do I have to leave a cheater alone, likely preventing the good outcome? Like I said I can understand feeling neutral/not compelled to report, but I can't see any logic that should condemn reporting them. I have zero ethical obligation to let them do it.

And I'm curious - why do you think cheating is wrong, considering it is victimless in your view?

 

[eteshoe]

 

[GrapesofRath]

The go to thread if you needed to bet your life on any individual one getting 150+ responses.

Also I dont think this is the thread that we really need to be tagging additional people into, particularly attendings/residents with their schedules.

 

[Affiche]

If the cheater being caught and punished is a good outcome, what is the ethical logic that makes it matter who catches/reports them? What duty do I have to leave a cheater alone, likely preventing the good outcome? Like I said I can understand feeling neutral/not compelled to report, but I can't see any logic that should condemn reporting them. I have zero ethical obligation to let them do it.

And I'm curious - why do you think cheating is wrong, considering it is victimless in your view?

It's the University's responsibility to ensure they're offering earned credentials. I mean, if the University wanted to pay me to be part of their faculty and enforce these policies, then okay, it would be my business to do so. But they don't. It's already the responsibility of faculty to enforce these policies, their policies, and if it's not hurting anyone but the student who's cheating then I see no reason to involve myself.

As for "condemning" someone who reported a cheater, I just simply disagree with meddling. In the case of the few posters here who support reporting the person to the professor to protect the curve, well, I find it more unethical of an action to intentionally cause someone harm/punishment in order to benefit yourself to be far than it would be to simply keep to yourself. But as I said earlier, if it's just an anonymous report to amp up exam security, it's whatever. Tbh, I simply don't care enough about the issue to meddle in any case.

 

[Lawpy]

Generalizing a conversation is what ignorant people do in order to feel like they can contribute. When you broaden a conversation to simple concepts where everyone has a pre-formulated opinion, then it's no surprise that these threads get popular. If you see picture threads on other forums they usually have some of the highest hits and feature people's faces. Everyone has a face, much like everyone has an opinion on weather, school, or Donald Trump. The reason why these threads always gravitate around the same base nature on subsequent iterations is because when you don't put a lot of effort into contributing to something there are only a limited number of various outcomes that are likely to result from it that someone else hasn't already stated.

😕😕 wait so we agree? I noted the trends happening on in this thread and related threads. You provided an explanation why these threads gather up several pages because people generalize them into broad concepts and answer with prepared arguments. And unfortunately, this thread in particular quickly polarized with no compromise in sight. That's not surprising since OP's main question is whether he should report the accused student for cheating without revealing her identity.

The go to thread if you needed to bet your life on any individual one getting 150+ responses.

Also this is not the thread that we really need to be tagging additional people into.

The tags so far involved members who already participated in the thread

 

[Affiche]

@mimelim, your thoughts as a practicing physician would be greatly appreciated.

He's alread expressed his thoughts on the subject a number of times. He would report the cheater and not think twice about it, but N=1.

 

[haaaaaaaaaaveyoumetted]

As for "condemning" someone who reported a cheater, I just simply disagree with meddling. In the case of the few posters here who support reporting the person to the professor to protect the curve, well, I find it more unethical of an action to intentionally cause someone harm/punishment in order to benefit yourself to be far more unethical than to keep to yourself. But as I said earlier, if it's just an anonymous report to amp up exam security, it's whatever. Tbh, I simply don't care enough about the issue to meddle in any case.

I can't find a single post where someone has advocated for turning the person in would be to protect the curve or in pursuit of their benefit- literally every post has been about the ethics and standards of the academic institution, which according to most honor codes, it is your responsibility to uphold.

 

[JustAPhD]

trying to write down review problems and answers in these guides that we get to have during tests.

What I was thinking was letting the Professors know that this is a possibility that people can cheat without revealing her identity. What are your thoughts?

So getting back to the question at hand. If I'm (now) understanding this correctly, you can have a guide sheet during the exam that has been furnished by the professor. The student in question added additional notes to this guide sheet, thus he/she cheated. You are asking if you should inform the professor that it is possible that students can write extra notes on this paper before the exam starts.

Keep in mind, OP, that if you do let the professor know this fairly obvious possibility there's a strong chance that your professor asks you if you saw anyone cheat. You're now faced with three options:
1.) Lie to your professor and say no.
2.) Say yes and tell the professor who it was.
3.) Say yes but refuse to tell the professor who cheated, keeping in mind your honor code may have a statement saying if you know someone who cheated you are required to provide that information.


Just something to keep in mind. You say you do not want to reveal the cheater's identity, but if that's the case just know it may not be that easy.

edit: These arguments never go well, because both sides are essentially doing this.

 

[mimelim]

So you concur with @gonnif arguments?

@mimelim, your thoughts as a practicing physician would be greatly appreciated.

I tried to write responses to people's posts and after writing and re-writing 4-5 posts I gave up. (Maybe I take forum posts a little too seriously 😉) So I'll try to write in a vacuum not agreeing/disagreeing with specific people.

#1 I think that every person in this thread can agree that physicians are held to a higher standard than your average person and almost everyone would agree that the standard is higher than any other profession. The general public puts physicians on a pedestal. What is good enough behavior for the average person or even the average college student is simply not good enough for a physician. We can disagree on whether this is right or wrong. Whether it is a benefit or a curse etc. But, it is a reality.

#2 I also don't think that anyone can dispute that physicians are expected to police themselves to a large degree and we do a terrible job at it. Physicians are given a huge amount of responsibility. We largely don't have people looking over our shoulders day to day. Yes, we are more accountable from a business standpoint to hospital groups and administrators, but when it comes to day to day decisions, if a physician wants wide latitude, they can have it.

#3 I have said this now 3 times in the past week (twice in presentations and once to friends over a board game) and several times on SDN in the past. Physicians are normal humans. They are incredibly self serving and self centered. While many have altruistic tendencies, as a population, they are not particularly altruistic. Rarely do they consider the field as a whole or a sense of responsibility for where we are all headed. Many simply want to make their money, get their prestige, keep their head down and keep chugging. There are plenty of physicians sitting in the room with me right now that would ignore cheating (I've seen them ignore blatant cheating), that would (and have) ignored patient safety issues, that don't speak up when something is off. All with the same excuse, "I don't want to snitch" or "I don't want to meddle". This is not terribly surprising when you accept that physicians are normal humans since normal humans are this way.

#4 Medical school and residency is transformative. An argument can be made that anyone working hard for 7-11 years is going to change considerably, but I don't think that most people would argue that people grow tremendously during this process. However, the core person does not change. The fundamental values do not change. This is why you will find medical students/residents/attendings that do and say things that defy logic and reasoning. This is why you will find people that consider patient safety to be a relatively minor issue.

I'll give you an example. We have (like most hospitals) a way to anonymously report patient safety issues through a web portal. Anyone can use them and they can be used for near misses, bad things that have happened or for really anything. Each report takes about 30-60 seconds to enter in. Anyone in the hospital (nurses, physicians, administrators, janitors etc) can put in a report. Do you know how many patient safety issues are reported by residents? We had 5 in 6 months. This seemed absurdly low, so we tracked over several weekends how many issues would be considered by the lay public and 3rd party physicians to be incidents worth reporting, tracked and acted on. We averaged 14 reports PER weekend for a single service. When you ask residents (and attendings) why they didn't report them, the #1 answer was that it took too much time, but a close #2 was something along the lines of "I don't want to meddle, it's okay, nobody got hurt this time."

Clearly, I am in the minority, but I don't think that this is a good or acceptable culture or environment. This is a personal opinion, but I think that this environment continues to propagate because we fundamentally select for the wrong people in medical school admissions.

#5 To bring this home to this thread. I don't have any judgement about reporting or not reporting. I don't think you are a bad person for not reporting, most people in my experience won't. But, by the same token, trying to make someone out to be a bad person for valuing integrity of a school or system etc is a pretty ****ty thing to do. Trying to shame someone by calling them a "snitch" is a pretty judgemental thing to do. If you see something that you think is wrong, I think that you should report it. Should you crusade and torpedo yourself? No, of course not. Should you target people and try to specifically harm them? No, of course not. Should you expend a lot of time and resources to try to fix it all? No, of course not. But, is it reasonable to spend 5 minutes thinking about something and a minute reporting something that you think is wrong? I think so. I certainly don't think that it makes you a bad person and personally, I think that those are the people that will better serve the medical community in the future.

 

[Dr. Death]

If cheating becomes such a widespread problem that it's more common to happen than not, then the institution needs to take responsibility to fix the situation. I agree that cheating is wrong and that when cheaters are caught they deserve their punishment, but I don't believe it to be the responsibility of other students to identify and report cheating.

My feelings are the same towards the MCAT. Why wouldn't they be? There are paid proctors administering the MCAT, let them do their job.

I'm way out of undergrad, kiddo. When I was in college, our exam rooms had more than enough TA's walking up and down aisles during exams to make sure there wasn't cheating. Professors were also present, of course. We had plenty of open-note exams too, which makes it pretty hard to cheat. So idk, I guess my perspective on this subject comes from the fact that my University did protect against cheating so I never felt obligated to get involved.

I'm not a student and I think you're having trouble understanding the concept yourself.

The thought experiment proposed by @efle occurs at my university in a biology course. There were copies of the tests floating around, word for word with answers. If you had those from day 1, you got an A. If not you would get a B or lower because the course was extremely difficult. It certainly would have been curved if there weren't 40-50% of students getting 100% on every test

Starting that semester I've turned in every cheater I've noticed.

 

[KungFuPanda123]

I would report the fact that you saw someone cheating and that it is pretty clear that the manner in which the testing is handled (with printed out guides?) is conducive to lots of cheating. Hopefully the professor changes the way he/she tests - I know that a lot of professors allow students to write their own cheatsheets/guides, since they understand that students are likely to write in printed out guides anyways. Also, cheat sheets let students learn the material while they write them.

There is no need to mention the person by name due to the fact that you have no proof. It would just be your word vs his/her word.

And for me personally, I wouldn't even bother reporting the person even if I did have definite proof, because it's not worth my time due to the fact that cheating tends to hurt no one but the cheater. It's fairly victimless aside from hurting the curve ever, ever so slightly, and the way I see it, they still need to take the MCAT, a test that is basically impossible to cheat on. If they had to cheat all along, chances are that they won't do so hot on the MCAT.

I'd never say that reporting a cheater is the wrong thing to do, because it's morally perfectly acceptable. But the types of people who reported cheaters in college didn't tend to be so bright themselves, and they rarely reported cheaters for the fact that it's morally wrong so much as they reported them because they felt like cheaters were hurting their grades/the curve. Again, they're not wrong in reporting, but the types of people who reported cheaters were the types of people who people would roll their eyes at in lecture because they would take up everyone's time by asking terrible questions.

 

[Lucca]

So help me understand here. If I have a responsibility as a student to not cheat or follow an honor code then another student must also have that same responsibility. If I know another student is not adhering to the honor code or is cheating, then how do I not have a responsibility to turn them in? If not, then what is the point of an honor code? Doesn't the integrity of an institution and of a student body depend on the implicit trust students have in each other to act with integrity and adhere to a code?

 

[JustAPhD]

So help me understand here. If I have a responsibility as a student to not cheat or follow an honor code then another student must also have that same responsibility. If I know another student is not adhering to the honor code or is cheating, then how do I not have a responsibility to turn them in? If not, then what is the point of an honor code? Doesn't the integrity of an institution and of a student body depend on the implicit trust students have in each other to act with integrity and adhere to a code?

By the letter of the law you are correct. Technically you would be under the obligation to turn the cheater in. However, as has been said in this thread it doesn't always work out like that in the real world.

 

[Lucca]

By the letter of the law you are correct. Technically you would be under the obligation to turn the cheater in. However, as has been said in this thread it doesn't always work out like that in the real world.

Of course it doesn't, but, like @mimelim mentioned, that either has to do with the barriers in place, shame, or because you do not actually believe there is anything wrong with others cheating (you may or may not cheat yourself). In the first case you are lazy; in the second, you are human and self-conscious or do not believe you have responsibilities when there are no explicit consequences for not following through; in the third, I am curious.

 

[KungFuPanda123]

So help me understand here. If I have a responsibility as a student to not cheat or follow an honor code then another student must also have that same responsibility. If I know another student is not adhering to the honor code or is cheating, then how do I not have a responsibility to turn them in? If not, then what is the point of an honor code? Doesn't the integrity of an institution and of a student body depend on the implicit trust students have in each other to act with integrity and adhere to a code?

You have the responsibility to not shoplift from Target/Walmart. But you are not responsible for reporting the shoplifter to Target/Walmart. Chances are, they'll get found out eventually because 1) they're probably a habitual shoplifter and 2) Target/Walmart security is there to deal with it.

That being said, you can totally report the shoplifter/cheater, and it's completely fine - no one is going to say you did the wrong thing by doing so. It's just not worth it to most people, since 1) they don't see shoplifting/writing notes ON A GUIDE as being a huge crime and 2) they figure that the person will get caught down the road

 

[JustAPhD]

Of course it doesn't, but, like @mimelim mentioned, that either has to do with the barriers in place, shame, or because you do not actually believe there is anything wrong with others cheating (you may or may not cheat yourself). In the first case you are lazy; in the second, you are human and self-conscious or do not believe you have responsibilities when there are no explicit consequences for not following through; in the third, I am curious.

Humans are confusing creatures.

 

[Goro]

"The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do NothingThe Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing"


attributed to Sir Edmund Burke

I assume that you have a University honor code? If so, go read it.

Do the right thing.

A student that I have become an acquaintance with was trying to write down review problems and answers in these guides that we get to have during tests. I called her out on it and said that she has cheated in past classes. I feel obligated to tell the Professors about this. What I was thinking was letting the Professors know that this is a possibility that people can cheat without revealing her identity. What are your thoughts?

 

[Imperius]

You have the responsibility to not shoplift from Target/Walmart. But you are not responsible for reporting the shoplifter to Target/Walmart. Chances are, they'll get found out eventually because 1) they're probably a habitual shoplifter and 2) Target/Walmart security is there to deal with it.

That being said, you can totally report the shoplifter/cheater, and it's completely fine - no one is going to say you did the wrong thing by doing so. It's just not worth it to most people, since 1) they don't see shoplifting/writing notes ON A GUIDE as being a huge crime and 2) they figure that the person will get caught down the road

Not the same at an academic institution. Their honor code does make you responsible for reporting academic dishonestly.

 

[ERDOC555]

Wow, this thread is scary.

The number of people that seem to have the "don't be a snitch" and "cheating isn't a big deal" mentalities is horrifying.

1. Cheaters often don't get what's coming to them. Many go their entire lives riding the benefits from cheating without ever getting caught. If you see cheating, stealing, or dishonesty, the majority of the time you should report it either in person or anonymously.

2. Pre-meds, medical students, and residents should have a 0 tolerance policy for cheating. Maybe cheating in bio 101 isn't going to make you a garbage doctor, but if you are cheating through your career, you have the potential to be an incompetent (from lack of knowledge) and unscrupulous (from clear lack of morals) doctor.

3. Many universities don't go far enough at all with cheating. Mine can barely even give a student a 0 on just one exam because that is so hard to prove. Failing the class entirely is almost unheard of and disciplinary action is rare. This is horrible, cheaters should have a permanent record of the incident, and a second strike should in my opinion result in dismissal.

4. Why does anyone think that people who think cheating is okay aren't the same exact people who end up committing medicare fraud, cooking the books for Enron, or selling prescriptions on the side? Cheating is not a victim-less crime. It affects many people and worst of all by not marking cheaters from the beginning, it allows them to advance the ranks into important positions where they can do serious damage.

I'm not saying you need to be the one to report every cheating incident , every time. What I am saying is that encouraging others not to do the right thing and report cheating, theft, or other wrongful activities is just plain scary. How anyone (especially future doctors) can ever be on the side of "cheating is okay and should be ignored" is a mystery to me.

 

[Lucca]

You have the responsibility to not shoplift from Target/Walmart. But you are not responsible for reporting the shoplifter to Target/Walmart. Chances are, they'll get found out eventually because 1) they're probably a habitual shoplifter and 2) Target/Walmart security is there to deal with it.

That being said, you can totally report the shoplifter/cheater, and it's completely fine - no one is going to say you did the wrong thing by doing so. It's just not worth it to most people, since 1) they don't see shoplifting/writing notes ON A GUIDE as being a huge crime and 2) they figure that the person will get caught down the road

I am also not interested in the particular incidence of cheating in the OP, more on the general concept.

I think there's something unique though about belonging to a group - namely, students - and having a very small set of specific responsibilities as a member of that group (pay school fees, follow the directions of a class based on a syllabus and agreement with the professor, complete the requirements of a degree plan, and do all of the above while preserving academic honesty) because ignoring those responsibilities undermines the principal endeavor of being in that group; i.e. if the goal of a student is to receive an education and the student acts dishonestly then why should they be a student? In other words, I think there is something different about an honor code when compared to the law. Our lax attitude towards the former but more serious approach to the latter, in most cases, is evidence of that, I believe.

 

[Sardinia]

@mimelim I always attributed that nature to the thin margin of error they give to physicians. A physician must absolutely do nothing wrong even when they've done something right because it only takes one mistake to open a physician up to the liability of a a malpractice case + potentially their job (leaving a paper trail / making sure you're covered at least). When you're forced to walk on a thin wire on a daily basis then it makes sense then there is a sort of mutual empathy to look out for one another when the healthcare system exerts far more negative than positive reinforcement. However, I'm sure you will agree that comparing the margin of error in a professional healthcare environment to the leeway given to undergraduate students is a drastic difference. To that end, it doesn't matter that we are humans, but that we encourage accountability because the responsibilities only stack higher and the margin of error we are alloted continues to get smaller & smaller.

 

[efle]

"cheating is okay and should be ignored"

To be fair, the opposing view hasn't been that cheating is okay, rather that "cheating is bad, but allowing it is not as bad as being a traitor/snitch on a fellow student." An equally strange position to me, since I see zero reason to feel loyalty to cheating peer and a clear reason to protect academic integrity, but a significantly different position than saying it's alright.

 

[KungFuPanda123]

Not the same at an academic institution. Their honor code does make you responsible for reporting academic dishonestly.

That's true, and I am technically wrong. But I do think that there is some leeway here in the same way that police officers have leeway in deciding whether to ticket an individual who is speeding 5-10mph over the limit on the highway or let them off with a verbal warning. Again, I'm not saying that cheating is okay at all - it's just that I think that there is a time and place for reporting it, and in my personal opinion, it doesn't seem worthwhile to stir up the pot in this situation where there is literally zero proof. It seems to be just as constructive to let the professor know about the cheating that is going on due to the manner in which he/she administers his/her tests.

Wow, this thread is scary.

The number of people that seem to have the "don't be a snitch" and "cheating isn't a big deal" mentalities is horrifying.

1. Cheaters often don't get what's coming to them. Many go their entire lives riding the benefits from cheating without ever getting caught. If you see cheating, stealing, or dishonesty, the majority of the time you should report it either in person or anonymously.

2. Pre-meds, medical students, and residents should have a 0 tolerance policy for cheating. Maybe cheating in bio 101 isn't going to make you a garbage doctor, but if you are cheating through your career, you have the potential to be an incompetent (from lack of knowledge) and unscrupulous (from clear lack of morals) doctor.

3. Many universities don't go far enough at all with cheating. Mine can barely even give a student a 0 on just one exam because that is so hard to prove. Failing the class entirely is almost unheard of and disciplinary action is rare. This is horrible, cheaters should have a permanent record of the incident, and a second strike should in my opinion result in dismissal.

4. Why does anyone think that people who think cheating is okay aren't the same exact people who end up committing medicare fraud, cooking the books for Enron, or selling prescriptions on the side? Cheating is not a victim-less crime. It affects many people and worst of all by not marking cheaters from the beginning, it allows them to advance the ranks into important positions where they can do serious damage.

I'm not saying you need to be the one to report every cheating incident , every time. What I am saying is that encouraging others not to do the right thing and report cheating, theft, or other wrongful activities is just plain scary. How anyone (especially future doctors) can ever be on the side of "cheating is okay and should be ignored" is a mystery to me.

You're painting lots of broad strokes here. Although a couple people on this thread did make it sound like you should never report a cheater, I'd say most people here have a more middle of the line argument. Many people are saying that in this particular case, it's not worthwhile to report the cheater due to the fact that there is no proof beyond he said/she said. What more will be gained by reporting this cheater by name as opposed to making the professor aware that there are people who are cheating in the class due to the way that testing is done in his/her course?

I'm fairly certain that if someone made a post that talked about how someone they knew plagiarized their term paper using certain sources that can be cross-referenced, you'd have the majority of people very much saying to report the cheater due to the fact that it is not just a small assignment and it can be definitely proven.

 

[Lost in Translation]

>cheating thread
>Affiche already all up in this biz defending the cheater
I hope you get caught cheating in med school and destroyed.

 

[Lucca]

To be fair, the opposing view hasn't been that cheating is okay, rather than "cheating is bad, but allowing it is not as bad as being a traitor/snitch on a fellow student." An equally strange position to me, since I see zero reason to feel loyalty to cheating peer and a clear reason to protect academic integrity, but a significantly different position than saying it's alright.

This is true. As is often the case, "Genuine [conflicts] in the world are not conflicts between right and wrong. They are conflicts between two rights." Paraphrased from Hegel. On the one hand, there is the line of adhering to some principle which I buy into. On the other, there is this vague notion about snitching being a negative thing or having some sort of loyalty to another student or the belief that minding your own business is more important in some way which I am still struggling to understand.

 

[Vaccinated]

Mostly I just don't gaf, but there's also nothing more annoying than a meddlesome little pre-med who's got his nose in other peoples' business.

The severity of punishment doesn't indicate much about the crime. Universities are notorious for mishandling sexual assault cases and giving a slap on the wrist to reported aggressors, but if someone reports cheating all of a sudden the burden for evidence is minimal and the punishment is severe. It would be foolish to look use the level of punishment administered as a measuring stick for how damaging the behavior is.

No offense, but there is a lot wrong with your train of thought. You originally said you didn't want to compare clinical ethics to undergrad ethics and now you bring in the sexual assault can of worms? You could probably prove that someone is cheating easier than if 2 months later someone came forward and said that they were raped. Totally different scenario! Usually the severity of the punishment is related to the crime.. You sexually assault someone you could go to jail for YEARS. You cheat on a test and the worst thing that happens is you get expelled, and most of the time there is some type of remediation that one could go through to stay.. Furthermore I don't see how this is meddling in someone else's business. Like someone previously brought up, if the class is curved, this student is directly negatively effecting your hard earned grade.

The bottom line is; Do you want to become India?

I'm not saying it would ever get that bad here, but really, what is the difference in watching someone cheat and being okay with someone giving answers through a window?
Clinical ethics is absolutely related to undergrad ethics.. How could you ever expect someone who cheats on Chem101 to have good ethics in a HIGH stress medical situation. I'm pretty surprised by the responses here honestly.

 

[mimelim]

@mimelim I always attributed that nature to the thin margin of error they give to physicians. A physician must absolutely do nothing wrong even when they've done something right because it only takes one mistake to open a physician up to the liability of a a malpractice case + potentially their job (leaving a paper trail / making sure you're covered at least). When you're forced to walk on a thin wire on a daily basis then it makes sense then there is a sort of mutual empathy to look out for one another when the healthcare system exerts far more negative than positive reinforcement. However, I'm sure you will agree that comparing the margin of error in a professional healthcare environment to the leeway given to undergraduate students is a drastic difference. To that end, it doesn't matter that we are humans, but that we encourage accountability because the responsibilities only stack higher and the margin of error we are alloted continues to get smaller & smaller.

To be perfectly honest, the line is not very thin. While for some specialties (OB) there are very real liability concerns, for the vast majority of physicians, there isn't a tight margin for error. The problem is fundamentally that people naturally want to push the boundaries. They want to make more money, work less, etc. They also see that virtually every other person they interact with can do this (people working on your house, car, teachers, etc). When you look at those patient safety issues that I mentioned, they are obvious. To a 3rd party, they are clearly on the other side of the line. The problem is, you can easily get away with most of those things, the vast majority of the time and the vast majority of the time, nobody gets hurt bad enough to bring a lawsuit. Thus, if it is advantageous from a money or time (which is money) perspective, many people will do it.

 

[efle]

I hope you get caught cheating in med school and destroyed.

Well that's uncalled for. She's never said cheating is fine, only that her code is to ignore rule breaking that doesn't have a clear victim (I had a similar debate with her about whether it is wrong to make fake parking passes - she says it's not something she'd want to see punished because there is no victim involved when a student breaks a rule for free parking). I think there is conflict in this case - how can you believe cheating is both wrong and victimless? - but thus far her position has been as a proponent for neutrality, not endorsing cheating.

 

[virchow?]

A student that I have become an acquaintance with was trying to write down review problems and answers in these guides that we get to have during tests. I called her out on it and said that she has cheated in past classes. I feel obligated to tell the Professors about this. What I was thinking was letting the Professors know that this is a possibility that people can cheat without revealing her identity. What are your thoughts?

It doesn't seem like cheating to me. If the professor lets people bring hand-written notes/guides into the exam and people write practice problems/solutions, how is that cheating? Granted, it might be better for a prof to offer a list of equations or something instead of letting students bring their own sheets in, but that's a matter of teaching/grading style, not cheating. Am I misunderstanding this?

 

[ERDOC555]

To be fair, the opposing view hasn't been that cheating is okay, rather that "cheating is bad, but allowing it is not as bad as being a traitor/snitch on a fellow student." An equally strange position to me, since I see zero reason to feel loyalty to cheating peer and a clear reason to protect academic integrity, but a significantly different position than saying it's alright.

That's true, and I am technically wrong. But I do think that there is some leeway here in the same way that police officers have leeway in deciding whether to ticket an individual who is speeding 5-10mph over the limit on the highway or let them off with a verbal warning. Again, I'm not saying that cheating is okay at all - it's just that I think that there is a time and place for reporting it, and in my personal opinion, it doesn't seem worthwhile to stir up the pot in this situation where there is literally zero proof. It seems to be just as constructive to let the professor know about the cheating that is going on due to the manner in which he/she administers his/her tests.



You're painting lots of broad strokes here. Although a couple people on this thread did make it sound like you should never report a cheater, I'd say most people here have a more middle of the line argument. Many people are saying that in this particular case, it's not worthwhile to report the cheater due to the fact that there is no proof beyond he said/she said. What more will be gained by reporting this cheater by name as opposed to making the professor aware that there are people who are cheating in the class due to the way that testing is done in his/her course?

I'm fairly certain that if someone made a post that talked about how someone they knew plagiarized their term paper using certain sources that can be cross-referenced, you'd have the majority of people very much saying to report the cheater due to the fact that it is not just a small assignment and it can be definitely proven.

I think you and I read completely different posts or simply interpreted them differently. I agree that maybe in this situation it's not black and white and my point was never in regards to this situation or even the original post in any way.

I was specifically calling out the 5 or so people on the first page that posted general comments saying not to report cheaters and giving reasons for why you shouldn't report cheaters. Some of those people are more vocal then others, but there were several who posted once and then left.

 

[Affiche]

Of course it doesn't, but, like @mimelim mentioned, that either has to do with the barriers in place, shame, or because you do not actually believe there is anything wrong with others cheating (you may or may not cheat yourself). In the first case you are lazy; in the second, you are human and self-conscious or do not believe you have responsibilities when there are no explicit consequences for not following through; in the third, I am curious.

It also has to do with some of us feeling uncomfortable with inflicting a punishment on someone when it wasn't necessarily our business to get involved with. If they get caught cheating, then okay, but I don't want to be a part of it.

No offense, but there is a lot wrong with your train of thought. You originally said you didn't want to compare clinical ethics to undergrad ethics and now you bring in the sexual assault can of worms? You could probably prove that someone is cheating easier than if 2 months later someone came forward and said that they were raped. Totally different scenario! Usually the severity of the punishment is related to the crime.. You sexually assault someone you could go to jail for YEARS. You cheat on a test and the worst thing that happens is you get expelled, and most of the time there is some type of remediation that one could go through to stay.. Furthermore I don't see how this is meddling in someone else's business. Like someone previously brought up, if the class is curved, this student is directly negatively effecting your hard earned grade.

The bottom line is; Do you want to become India?

I'm not saying it would ever get that bad here, but really, what is the difference in watching someone cheat and being okay with someone giving answers through a window?
Clinical ethics is absolutely related to undergrad ethics.. How could you ever expect someone who cheats on Chem101 to have good ethics in a HIGH stress medical situation. I'm pretty surprised by the responses here honestly.

I honestly have a hard time following your post. To clarify, comparing the safety of patients to cheating in a pre-med course is banking on a logical fallacy. The whole "you let someone cheat, therefore you'll let someone endanger a patient", is total garbage that doesn't hold up logically. My response to @efle wasn't banking on a logical fallacy lol it was a response to the notion that the severity of crime is a measuring stick for how wrong an action is. I mean ffs, slaves used to get their hands chopped off for learning to read. Do we really think that it makes sense to use the punishment inflicted as a means to measure the crime's severity? No. More importantly, we don't need to, because we can have a logical discussion about the ethics here and determine for ourselves if we agree/disagree with the severity of the punishment.

Well that's uncalled for. She's never said cheating is fine, only that her code is to ignore rule breaking that doesn't have a clear victim (I had a similar debate with her about whether it is wrong to make fake parking passes - she says it's not something she'd want to see punished because there is no victim involved when a student breaks a rule for free parking). I think there is conflict in this case - how can you believe cheating is both wrong and victimless? - but thus far her position has been as a proponent for neutrality, not endorsing cheating.

Pretty sure he's a troll because he always makes idiotic posts like that. Anyway, if it's a parking lot full of open spaces then yeah idc if someone parks there without a pass. But, if the lot is reserved for permits and someone w/ a fake permit takes a spot from someone else w/ a legitimate permit, then I absolutely mind. Literally yesterday someone took my parking spot near the hospital so he could move his kid out of the dorm and I had no problem reporting him to get his car moved (he wasn't ticketed, just told to move of he would be). The space was permit-only for hospital employees and this guy just posted up there, in the last spot, for convenience. I had a patient to see and needed the spot, so I didn't feel bad about getting him to move. However, if there was another spot open then I wouldn't have cared.

 

[leonardoson]

It doesn't seem like cheating to me. If the professor lets people bring hand-written notes/guides into the exam and people write practice problems/solutions, how is that cheating? Granted, it might be better for a prof to offer a list of equations or something instead of letting students bring their own sheets in, but that's a matter of teaching/grading style, not cheating. Am I misunderstanding this?

Yes you are, the professors have specifically said no worked out problems. It's calculus-based physics and these guides are used during class to teach us. This student is consistently getting a little bit better test scores than me while I'm the one always helping her on homework. When I called her out on it, she immediately quit writing down answers. But she then told she has cheated in other classes. Like it was no big deal. It bothers me since I was always curious about how she was beating me on tests when I was the one helping her on homework.

What's really sad here is the fact that many people on this thread don't really care. As a non-traditional student I have a little more life experience than some of you. I was already planning on letting the teacher know that this is a form of cheating. I don't have any evidence whatsoever that would get her in trouble so it would all be here say. I posted this to get opinions from "hopefully" people more experienced in problems that deal with ethics. I do appreciate any post that has actually given good advice.

 

[Affiche]

Yes you are, the professors have specifically said no worked out problems. It's calculus-based physics and these guides are used during class to teach us. This student is consistently getting a little bit better test scores than me while I'm the one always helping her on homework. When I called her out on it, she immediately quit writing down answers. But she then told she has cheated in other classes. Like it was no big deal. It bothers me since I was always curious about how she was beating me on tests when I was the one helping her on homework.

What's really sad here is the fact that many people on this thread don't really care. As a non-traditional student I have a little more life experience than some of you. I was already planning on letting the teacher know that this is a form of cheating. I don't have any evidence whatsoever that would get her in trouble so it would all be here say. I posted this to get opinions from "hopefully" people more experienced in problems that deal with ethics. I do appreciate any post that has actually given good advice.

There are plenty of non-trads, faculty members, practicing physicians, etc. commenting here. No offense, but if you have so much more "life experience" than us then you don't need to ask our advice.

It sounds like you're jealous that she's been scoring above you and now you want to report the incident so she can't do that anymore. This is the kind of thing I hate, because you aren't reporting her out of some sense of moral obligation to do so, but because you want her stop beating your scores with less effort than you put in.

 

[efle]

My response to @efle wasn't banking on a logical fallacy lol it was a response to the notion that the severity of crime is a measuring stick for how wrong an action is.

My point was to make you state the motive behind the presence of punishment. For something like chopping hands off slaves, the motive is evil - keeping people oppressed and terrified. My question was asking "what is the University's motive?" which I thought would be a rhetorical way to point out there is a negative effect from cheating. Turns out your answer is "protecting their business" when I had assumed we would agree it is "academic integrity is necessary for grades to be valid and valuable"

 

[GrapesofRath]

This is a personal opinion, but I think that this environment continues to propagate because we fundamentally select for the wrong people in medical school admissions.

This is the most interesting issue at play from my perspective. We've talked about in the past alot about different ways schools can select for people, be it for serving primary care missions, missions to the minority populations etc. The idea of "We place too much emphasis on numbers whoring" is another common thing.

But how you select for people who are less likely to "ignore a wrong doing" if that's what you value is a whole separate discussion and brings on its own set of clear problems. A general medical school admission process where 10,000 people are applying to a school just makes it very very difficult to identify behavior like you described that you dont see as ideal but is largely tolerated and a real thing in everyday medicine. The "ignore a wrong doing" is a proxy for characteristics in general that arent ideal but rampant and largely tolerated in medicine. Im sure you have some ideas as to how it might be worth at least considering addressing this issue given your post which is why Im quoting and asking. I think there it is a real struggle to come up with ways to do this though. It's not nearly as simple as "those who do more community service" are less likely to do these things as an arbitrary ex.

I can give some ideas thrown off the top of my head in the past 5 minutes but that's not really the most useful thing here. More relevant is asking a couple things

1) How much of these types of behaviors are an issue of the applicant and who they are. Like you said many physicians readily overlook these things. I know some who I would consider compassionate, caring ones who would from conversations Ive had with them. Included in this is an MD who's class I took and TA'ed for(he also teaches MS2s) who told me once "I really dont care about cheating, if people want to cheat and give others answers they just ruin the curve for themselves". Just what it eactly it says about a doc who readily shows these traits of glossing over clear violations is worth considering as much as we can.
2) Can this be "corrected" or "modified" to some extent, again for complete lack of better words, in training of doctors particularly at the med school level. Do we believe there are things we can clearly do to modify circumstances that can make these types of actions less frequent.
3) Perhaps just as important is Im willing to bet many who ignore these things rarely if ever consider the issues at play. Just being able to highlight the potential issues that can be realistically caused in a way that gets their attention is also worth thinking about. Because to many, this question of "why arent you reporting" is barely even considered. Again, it gets back to what I said in 1) of thinking about "Why" this happens even for highly respected people. Making the question of why are you overlooking these things a question/consideration in and of itself is a clear obstacle.

Bottom line I think we can all agree that if you want to look at this issue, it's a multifaceted one that comes from addressing it at multiple levels, angles and perspectives.

 

[Affiche]

My point was to make you state the motive behind the presence of punishment. For something like chopping hands off slaves, the motive is evil - keeping people oppressed and terrified. My question was asking "what is the University's motive?" which I thought would be a rhetorical way to point out there is a negative effect from cheating. Turns out your answer is "protecting their business" when I had assumed we would agree it is "academic integrity is necessary for grades to be valid and valuable"

Lol don't you know me well enough by now to know that wouldn't have worked? Besides, I don't agree that grades are "valuable", so there's that 😉

 

[Lebowski9]

Snitching on someone in a prison setting will leave you in the floor of the shower room covered in your own entrails.

However, this is not prison. If you are 100% sure this person is cheating and know you can catch them red handed, try to report it through email. Please Don't make a big deal about it and tell everyone you're ratting this person out, that would be my only problem with it.

 

[TBV]

All actions have consequences, ratting included. If this person gets caught and gets wind that you told and perceives that you have ended their dreams they may break your legs. Extreme example but if it was me I'm at least whooping your a*s

 

[leonardoson]

There are plenty of non-trads, faculty members, practicing physicians, etc. commenting here. No offense, but if you have so much more "life experience" than us then you don't need to ask our advice.

It sounds like you're jealous that she's been scoring above you and now you want to report the incident so she can't do that anymore. This is the kind of thing I hate, because you aren't reporting her out of some sense of moral obligation to do so, but because you want her stop beating your scores with less effort than you put in.

That's a valid conjecture. It was more directed at many of the "probably pre-meds" who have told me not to be a snitch here. my actual thought process is what if I'm asked in medical school interviews if I've ever dealt with an ethical dilemma and how did I handle it. Do I lie by omission if don't do anything here? Or do I use this as a chance to be an honest student and future medical professional? I will tell you I do not want this possible future optometrist digging around in my eye, knowing that she has possibly cheated her way to her degree. Also, you are missing my point, I'm actually trying to protect her anonymity, while also trying to do the right thing. I could care less if she's getting better test scores than me. Please read my posts in full instead of picking out bits and pieces.

 

[ZedsDed]

if it was me I'm at least whooping your a*s

Uh oh, internet tough guy over here.

 

[TBV]

Uh oh, internet tough guy here.

You're pathetic, go ahead and farm your likes, hope it makes you feel better about yourself. Believe it or not there are people in the world who arent against whooping ass and in 2016 they probably use the internet. Just saying **** happens.

 

[ZedsDed]

You're pathetic, go ahead and farm your likes, hope it makes you feel better about yourself. Believe it or not there are people in the world who arent against whooping ass and in 2016 they probably use the internet. Just saying **** happens.

Oh yes, I'm pathetic.

 

[Affiche]

That's a valid conjecture. It was more directed at many of the "probably pre-meds" who have told me not to be a snitch here. my actual thought process is what if I'm asked in medical school interviews if I've ever dealt with an ethical dilemma and how did I handle it. Do I lie by omission if don't do anything here? Or do I use this as a chance to be an honest student and future medical professional? I will tell you I do not want this possible future optometrist digging around in my eye, knowing that she has possibly cheated her way to her degree. Also, you are missing my point, I'm actually trying to protect her anonymity, while also trying to do the right thing. I could care less if she's getting better test scores than me. Please read my posts in full instead of picking out bits and pieces.

If you read my posts in full, I had no objection to you reporting that cheating occurred, as long as her identity was protected. It wasn't until your last post that I got the impression that your motive was out of jealousy, not honesty, hence my recent comment.

FWIW, I just went through interviewing and was never asked if I would report a fellow student who I caught cheating. I was however asked if I would step in to mediate a dispute between my hypothetical aunt and her husband and I said that I honestly wouldn't because I don't like meddling, especially in situations involving money or marriages. I was accepted to this school (though the interview day was long and my answer to this one question likely played a no role).

 

[TBV]

Oh yes, I'm pathetic.

Great you've admitted it and now we can move past it.

 

[virchow?]

Yes you are, the professors have specifically said no worked out problems. It's calculus-based physics and these guides are used during class to teach us. This student is consistently getting a little bit better test scores than me while I'm the one always helping her on homework. When I called her out on it, she immediately quit writing down answers. But she then told she has cheated in other classes. Like it was no big deal. It bothers me since I was always curious about how she was beating me on tests when I was the one helping her on homework.

Ah, ok. Apologies, if you have said that previously I didn't see it.
Are these guides pre-made for you then? If that's the case, maybe just request that they are attached to the exam, not brought by individual students.