Caught a student cheating before a test....

BU Medical Sciences
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Are you chaotic good, neutral good, or lawful good?
 
Lawper said:
A random aside:



@efle @Lucca and other philosophy majors here, is the above quote an example of moral relativism? And is the university honor code an example of ethics?
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Moral relativism would be if the culture of a school allows cheating, it is not morally wrong to cheat (similarly if the culture of the school allows assault, then it is not morally wrong for people to commit assault).
 
Holmwood said:
Are you chaotic good, neutral good, or lawful good?
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alignment_chart_by_4thehorde-d37w8l2.jpg
 
Lucca said:
so you can either tell the Prof she needs to up her exam security and silently hope that the cheater is caught this time or just make sure the cheater is caught. I'd turn them in. I did it in high school, I would do it in college again. I believe in second chances but not third or fourth or fifth.
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Snitch 😏
 
Stagg737 said:
It may not significantly help increase the overall integrity of the class, but it will prevent someone who has a pattern of shady behavior from entering a field where they'll be interacting with patients. Besides, if we're talking about the 'disproportionate punishment' of getting caught cheating I'd say being forced into a new career during sophomore or junior year of undergrad is far less problematic than making all the way through med school or residency, getting caught, and ending up with even more debt without the chance of a future in medicine.

Either way, no one is being helped by not reporting a chronic cheater.
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Trust me, these types of people will force themselves out of the profession one way or another. If they feel the need to cheat during an undergrad physics class then there's no way they'd be able to finish whatever professional school they have their eyes set on, that's if they get in. If the student gets caught, no sympathy for them whatsoever, but I don't see myself as the enforcer of the honor code even if it's against my morals to cheat.
 
Tr1LL said:
Do you report every violation of the honor code when you witness it? I can't speak on behalf of anyone but myself, but to enforce the honor code, I would have to spend my entire day going from professor to professor and telling them how almost all my classmates are breaking the honor code. I see that happen in front of my own eyes, every single day in each of my lectures, that is why I said it's all about picking the right fight.
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Feel really bad about the school you went/go to. I'm sure cheating happens here but I have never once had a reason to believe anyone is cheating in any of my classes. The one time I had definitive proof someone was cheating, in high school, I turned them in although I didn't give their name to the teacher, the teacher just figured it out. I'd do it again too and there was nothing I hated more in high school than the school's dumb, oppressive rules.
 
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leonardoson said:
A student that I have become an acquaintance with was trying to write down review problems and answers in these guides that we get to have during tests. I called her out on it and said that she has cheated in past classes. I feel obligated to tell the Professors about this. What I was thinking was letting the Professors know that this is a possibility that people can cheat without revealing her identity. What are your thoughts?
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assuming this is not a troll post, some advice is desperately needed. If you feel obliged to fight injustice, then pick a bigger fight. How about you feel as obliged to go after the school bullies, or animal abusers, or financial crooks. Cheating on a college exam while against the rules, is small fish. Going after them won't solve the problem and you might as well use that energy to solve one of the thousand of world crises that will kill us or how about at the very least you use that energy improve your own life and lead by example.
 
Montisumo said:
assuming this is not a troll post, some advice is desperately needed. If you feel obliged to fight injustice, then pick a bigger fight. How about you feel as obliged to go after the school bullies, or animal abusers, or financial crooks. Cheating on a college exam while against the rules, is small fish. Going after them won't solve the problem and you might as well use that energy to solve one of the thousand of world crises that will kill us or how about at the very least you use that energy improve your own life and lead by example.
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Turning in cheaters is leading by example. Also the energy needed to say cheating is happening in a class and something needs to be done is about 1/100th of what it takes to "fight injustice". People seem to say not turning in cheaters is too small ball to be worthwhile, but it's precisely that it's so small ball that it should be easy to just do the right thing right away.
 
Lucca said:
Turning in cheaters is leading by example. Also the energy needed to say cheating is happening in a class and something needs to be done is about 1/100th of what it takes to "fight injustice". People seem to say not turning in cheaters is too small ball to be worthwhile, but it's precisely that it's so small ball that it should be easy to just do the right thing right away.
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you assume the right thing is turning on him? Hmmm... So you bought into all the bs they taught us growing up eh? Black and white right?
 
I still have yet to see proof this was actually cheating. OP said that the sheet was allowed in the exam, so.... Last class I had where the prof let us bring in a guide they basically let us put whatever floated our boat. I could have put his power points on there if I wanted, or every homework problem... Maybe this student is just smarter than the OP and is putting something useful on their sheet.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
I still have yet to see proof this was actually cheating. OP said that the sheet was allowed in the exam, so.... Last class I had where the prof let us bring in a guide they basically let us put whatever floated our boat. I could have put his power points on there if I wanted, or every homework problem... Maybe this student is just smarter than the OP and is putting something useful on their sheet.
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Let me be clear, which I have clarified in past posts. The guides take us through the course. It's non lecture, all lab based physics. The only thing we can "add" to during an exam is an equation sheet which they were clear, "everything has to have equal signs in it". Is that clear enough for you?
 
Eh, I would have tried to make the student stop by offering to study with her ... don't need a cheat sheet when you already know how to do the problems.
I would also hint to the professor to check the "cheat sheet" next time.

This way, other students are not able to cheat the same way, the student in question learns how to be a proper student, and the friendship is maintained.
 
I'd like to point out that reporting someone does also bear consequences for the reporter aka "snitch". Some of the administrators that are in charge of issues such as this or the deans etc will remember you as the person who acted in a certain way. These very same people can be responsible for many things further down your career such as awards, promotions, etc. The danger is the unknown of how they will perceive your actions. Do they have something against "snitches"? Or do they admire you for upholding "justice"? Is it worth the risk of hurting your image and reputation to report someone for an action that will likely have zero bearing on you and your peers' futures?

Some may say withholding a report to protect yourself from any consequences is selfish but isn't it also selfish to report someone for fear of your grades or even fear of belonging to a profession with cheaters? Would you throw yourself at a suicide bomber to save thousands of people? Would you be scared of reporting someone who had a large-scale plan of destruction in the works for fear of retaliation by them on you or your loved ones? At what point does it become justified to act for the better good of the most people?

The best solution, IMHO, is to use an anonymous system (if it's in place) to report cheating etc. In today's digital age, the systems really need to be anonymous or you can be tracked down fairly easily if need be. Of course, there would need to be proof of the act which is not always so straightforward...
 
I personally wouldn't bring this person up to the professor.

However, this whole "snitches get stitches" mentality is so stupid. Are all of you in some street gang? These gang affiliated rules don't apply to regular people, let alone pre-meds.
 
haaaaaaaaaaveyoumetted said:
It's astounding to me that members of a pre-professional forum are resorting to shaming OP for being a "snitch" when he would be acting in accordance with the honor code that requires members of an academic community to maintain the integrity of that community. The OP said absolutely nothing about wanting to report the person for the purpose of pre-med competition, but because he witnessed a violation and are trying to maintain the ethics of their community
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I'm sorry, but I said nothing of the sort, even though you quoted my message out of context. I'm genuinely curious how you cheat BEFORE an exam, and why no one came down on OP for being able to determine what his or her classmate was doing/writing in the middle of the exam. If OP should be shamed for anything, it isn't over being a snitch or not, but for looking at what a classmate is writing during an exam. That sounds kind of like an intention towards cheating to me, regardless of if the classmate is writing review problems and answers (how is that cheating if they memorized it?) or writing the lyrics to "Baby Got Back."
 
akinetopsia said:
I'm sorry, but I said nothing of the sort, even though you quoted my message out of context. I'm genuinely curious how you cheat BEFORE an exam, and why no one came down on OP for being able to determine what his or her classmate was doing/writing in the middle of the exam. If OP should be shamed for anything, it isn't over being a snitch or not, but for looking at what a classmate is writing during an exam. That sounds kind of like an intention towards cheating to me, regardless of if the classmate is writing review problems and answers (how is that cheating if they memorized it?) or writing the lyrics to "Baby Got Back."
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well I did call her out on it, and she immediately knew it was wrong and stopped doing it. Would that argument work in a medschool exam? "Well writing it down is the same as memorizing"?
 
That's when she admitted to doing it in other classes. I just have no idea if she continues to do it after Ii left.
 
leonardoson said:
well I did call her out on it, and she immediately knew it was wrong and stopped doing it. Would that argument work in a medschool exam? "Well writing it down is the same as memorizing"?
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Why assume that cheating on an inconsequential undergraduate exam would translate to cheating to medical school?
 
pathhermit said:
Why assume that cheating on an inconsequential undergraduate exam would translate to cheating to medical school?
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If you read the thread you'd have found you answer but here it is again: because when cheaters don't get caught they get in the habit of continuing to cheat because they get comfortable with cheating. This can continue into med school or whatever profession they ultimately end up in.
 
Lost in Translation said:
If you read the thread you'd have found you answer but here it is again: because when cheaters don't get caught they get in the habit of continuing to cheat because they get comfortable with cheating. This can continue into med school or whatever profession they ultimately end up in.
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But this still doesn't answer Pat's question. What you say here is also an assumption. You could just as easily propose that cheaters acted a certain way in undergrad because the consequences are relatively benign whereas in clinic the consequences may involve a patient's safety. Who can actually pinpoint the motivations for cheating? There's probably plenty from the people who are just lazy to those who only do it for a single test to get that C to pass, blah blah.
 
Affiche said:
It also has to do with some of us feeling uncomfortable with inflicting a punishment on someone when it wasn't necessarily our business to get involved with. If they get caught cheating, then okay, but I don't want to be a part of it.

I honestly have a hard time following your post. To clarify, comparing the safety of patients to cheating in a pre-med course is banking on a logical fallacy. The whole "you let someone cheat, therefore you'll let someone endanger a patient", is total garbage that doesn't hold up logically. My response to @efle wasn't banking on a logical fallacy lol it was a response to the notion that the severity of crime is a measuring stick for how wrong an action is. I mean ffs, slaves used to get their hands chopped off for learning to read. Do we really think that it makes sense to use the punishment inflicted as a means to measure the crime's severity? No. More importantly, we don't need to, because we can have a logical discussion about the ethics here and determine for ourselves if we agree/disagree with the severity of the punishment.

Pretty sure he's a troll because he always makes idiotic posts like that. Anyway, if it's a parking lot full of open spaces then yeah idc if someone parks there without a pass. But, if the lot is reserved for permits and someone w/ a fake permit takes a spot from someone else w/ a legitimate permit, then I absolutely mind. Literally yesterday someone took my parking spot near the hospital so he could move his kid out of the dorm and I had no problem reporting him to get his car moved (he wasn't ticketed, just told to move of he would be). The space was permit-only for hospital employees and this guy just posted up there, in the last spot, for convenience. I had a patient to see and needed the spot, so I didn't feel bad about getting him to move. However, if there was another spot open then I wouldn't have cared.
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I see where you are coming from Affiche and 100% agree. I am not sure how it is in other colleges, but at my UG there is absolutely 0 tolerance for cheating, where most often students will get an AI rather than an F, etc. To be honest, I do not think I will be able to sleep at night knowing that a students dreams are over because I told on them for cheating in Bio101. That being said, I know someone last year who used to use an erasable pen for lab data so as to falsify results later. I simply referred her to a post made here on SDN by a student who came here to ask they might get an academic infraction on their record and what they should do. She told me that reading the responses made by you all literally made her **** her pants. Recently, on my birthday she thanked me for informing her because she wasn't fully aware of how damaging such an infraction is.

The parallels between reporting a student cheating on an exam and reporting medical professionls engaging in unethical behavior are hardly equivalent, where I am sure I will not hesitate to report the latter.
 
Lost in Translation said:
I'm not the one on probation due to comments made in other areas of SDN :whistle:
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She may be on probation but that doesn't give you an excuse to use "Ebonics" in a way that some would think is racist (not calling you one). The comment was offensive and that is all I will say on the matter...
 
cuphea said:
I do not think I will be able to sleep at night knowing that a students dreams are over because I told on them for cheating in Bio101.
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Odd perspective. The decision that ended MD dreams was their choosing to cheat, not whoever saw it (fellow student, TA, professor, whatever) choosing to bring the school policy down on them, nor the IA board members choosing to convict, nor the people who chose the honor code. They knew the rules.
 
Affiche said:
If I'm on an honor code to report what I witness, then I report it. If I'm not, then I don't. Jesus Christ since when is being a snitch the ethical thing to do?

Edit: and for the love of god can we quit comparing patient safety to pre-med tests?
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haha well it's ethical if they call you a whistle blower!
 
Turning her in probably wouldnt do anything because it'd be your word against theirs. The most you could do is tell the professor to keep an eye out during the next test, and maybe they'll get caught then.
 
Proud to have turned in a student cheating blatantly in my last undergrad exam this week. Never saw him/her in the class all semester. If he/she doesn't walk at graduation, serves him/her right. The professor said he saw the cheating and would address it and thanked me for caring.
 
Anyone who decides to cheat on an exam has come to the conclusion that their options are either bombing or that. It's a sign of desperation. For an undergrad, that is probably a direct result of having no work ethic in school. Those folks are either going to have to change their habits or change career directions quickly, regardless of whether they get caught or not. I tried to cheat a handful of times as a young, stupid college student and even if I had tremendous success doing so(not at all the case), I would have failed out within two semesters without changing things. Had the repercussions of that mindset not been self inflicted, I would have have blamed my failures on someone else rather than myself. If you're in undergrad and rat someone out for cheating because you are "concerned for the well being of future patients," you are either being disingenuous or are awfully short-sighted. There is not a soul who manages to get into medical school on account of cheating. Those who cheat will fall on their faces on their own very early in undergrad and be forced to grow some self-awareness/responsibility or get out. There is a time and place to be the ethical police and this is not it. The person cheating is only hurting themselves.
 
How about a different ethical question. Would you defend a student you saw cheating if the professor accused them but had no proof? You would be saving them from a hefty punishment without doing any harm to yourself.
 
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FactorV said:
As potential future health professionals, realize that as professionals we are expected to police our own ranks. That means "tattling". Now I realize that, in the healthcare setting, this is an issue of patient safety not of grades. Still, get used to the idea of policing your own ranks now.
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Use the word "physician" not "health care professional" please. I am not going to school to be an NP or a medical assistant.

Sent from my SM-N910P using SDN mobile
 
*drop mic* /endthread
Afp0731 said:
Anyone who decides to cheat on an exam has come to the conclusion that their options are either bombing or that. It's a sign of desperation. For an undergrad, that is probably a direct result of having no work ethic in school. Those folks are either going to have to change their habits or change career directions quickly, regardless of whether they get caught or not. I tried to cheat a handful of times as a young, stupid college student and even if I had tremendous success doing so(not at all the case), I would have failed out within two semesters without changing things. Had the repercussions of that mindset not been self inflicted, I would have have blamed my failures on someone else rather than myself. If you're in undergrad and rat someone out for cheating because you are "concerned for the well being of future patients," you are either being disingenuous or are awfully short-sighted. There is not a soul who manages to get into medical school on account of cheating. Those who cheat will fall on their faces on their own very early in undergrad and be forced to grow some self-awareness/responsibility or get out. There is a time and place to be the ethical police and this is not it. The person cheating is only hurting themselves.
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Afp0731 said:
Anyone who decides to cheat on an exam has come to the conclusion that their options are either bombing or that. It's a sign of desperation. For an undergrad, that is probably a direct result of having no work ethic in school. Those folks are either going to have to change their habits or change career directions quickly, regardless of whether they get caught or not. I tried to cheat a handful of times as a young, stupid college student and even if I had tremendous success doing so(not at all the case), I would have failed out within two semesters without changing things. Had the repercussions of that mindset not been self inflicted, I would have have blamed my failures on someone else rather than myself. If you're in undergrad and rat someone out for cheating because you are "concerned for the well being of future patients," you are either being disingenuous or are awfully short-sighted. There is not a soul who manages to get into medical school on account of cheating. Those who cheat will fall on their faces on their own very early in undergrad and be forced to grow some self-awareness/responsibility or get out. There is a time and place to be the ethical police and this is not it. The person cheating is only hurting themselves.
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You seem to not understand that in a competitive environment cheating can and does distort a bell curve to the point where people are being unfairly assigned letter grades they did not earn (which can go in either direction.) There are data on this. And I don't care if the person sinks or swims later on in the application process -- they are doing damage now. Students don't deserve to get dinged because others have wondering eyes during an exam.
 
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ZedsDed said:
You seem to not understand that in a competitive environment cheating can and does distort a bell curve to the point where people are being unfairly assigned letter grades they did not earn (which can go in either direction.) There are data on this. And I don't care if the person sinks or swims later on in the application process -- they are doing damage now. Students don't deserve to get dinged because others have wondering eyes during an exam.
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The collective conditions needed for a student to cheat so effectively that hard working classmates are actually penalized on their work are highly improbable. I hope your example of "wondering eyes" was not literal because that is a ludicrous threat to anyone's work. In fact, that situation would be a perfect opportunity for you to handle WITHOUT getting a professor involved. You simply cover your answers and or Confront the peeping tom face to face like an adult. Call it anecdotal evidence but I can't think of a circumstance in college where an attempt to cheat would have yielded better results, either immediately or in terms of final grades, than preparing well. I'm quite confident that most undergrad students would objectively agree. If some unfortunate person finds themselves in the position you illustrated, of course securing your own/your classmates fair treatment is understandable. We both know that is rarely case. I stand by my words.
 
Afp0731 said:
The collective conditions needed for a student to cheat so effectively that hard working classmates are actually penalized on their work are highly improbable. I hope your example of "wondering eyes" was not literal because that is a ludicrous threat to anyone's work. In fact, that situation would be a perfect opportunity for you to handle WITHOUT getting a professor involved. You simply cover your answers and or Confront the peeping tom face to face like an adult. Call it anecdotal evidence but I can't think of a circumstance in college where an attempt to cheat would have yielded better results, either immediately or in terms of final grades, than preparing well. I'm quite confident that most undergrad students would objectively agree. If some unfortunate person finds themselves in the position you illustrated, of course securing your own/your classmates fair treatment is understandable. We both know that is rarely case. I stand by my words.
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There are a lot more creative ways to cheat than this... I've known people to bring their smarter/more knowledgeable friend with them to a test and let them take the test for them. Then again, I never told on them, but I can't really blame a student for telling the professor if they caught it happening. Curve or no curve, it is unfair to those struggling but don't want to do this. Also, what exactly would confronting them head on do? I feel like that would likely lead to a bigger mess.
 
Afp0731 said:
The collective conditions needed for a student to cheat so effectively that hard working classmates are actually penalized on their work are highly improbable.
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You need a plurality of students cheating. Generally this takes the form of an exam key leaking or something comparable. It happens plenty.
Afp0731 said:
I hope your example of "wondering eyes" was not literal because that is a ludicrous threat to anyone's work. In fact, that situation would be a perfect opportunity for you to handle WITHOUT getting a professor involved.
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No it was not literal, and perhaps a poor example.
Afp0731 said:
You simply cover your answers and or Confront the peeping tom face to face like an adult.
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Again with these thinly-veiled jabs 🙄
Afp0731 said:
Call it anecdotal evidence but I can't think of a circumstance in college where an attempt to cheat would have yielded better results, either immediately or in terms of final grades, than preparing well.
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It depends on what we're talking about. Studying would likely prove more effective than something idiotic like "signaling." But sitting next to someone in class you know will do well, or striking gold with an exam key?
Afp0731 said:
I'm quite confident that most undergrad students would objectively agree.
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And they would be objectively wrong. I'm not going to get into the ethics of cheating, but it is certainly prevalent enough to be a problem. Many schools publish data on IAs. Unfortunately, the number of students who actually receive an IA is small compared to the staggering number who have admitted to cheating (no doubt a consequence of this "snitches get stitches culture.") I know I have read at least a couple of studies that have shown if students are given the opportunity to cheat without consequence, many will. Still, what does it matter? If an institution has one large "incident" a year that is one preventable instance too many. Nonetheless, I have personally sat in two exams where 10-20% of the scores had to be thrown out due to cheating. In the first case the professor thought seating charts were an unnecessary formality. In the second case a group of students got a hold of an exam key from a former TA.
Afp0731 said:
If some unfortunate person finds themselves in the position you illustrated, of course securing your own/your classmates fair treatment is understandable.
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This is quite an unreasonable standard. Said individual has no way of knowing how widespread cheating is in the class or if it will be statistically benign. Best to bring the incidence of cheating to the attention of the instructor so the integrity of the class can be protected. As I have said before, I would not personally have the stomach to "snitch."
 
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itmeowsback said:
There are a lot more creative ways to cheat than this... I've known people to bring their smarter/more knowledgeable friend with them to a test and let them take the test for them. Then again, I never told on them, but I can't really blame a student for telling the professor if they caught it happening. Curve or no curve, it is unfair to those struggling but don't want to do this. Also, what exactly would confronting them head on do? I feel like that would likely lead to a bigger mess.
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The example I was responding to was that of someone attempting to cheat by sneaking a peak during an exam. If the person being cheated off of felt compelled to turn the cheater in on account of a potential harmful curve, taking the action needed to hide/protect your work would be the more effective route. If you catch someone looking at your exam, it's your word against theirs if You tell the professor.
 
ZedsDed said:
You need a plurality of students cheating. Generally this takes the form of an exam key leaking or something comparable. It happens plenty.

No it was not literal, and perhaps a poor example.

Again with these thinly-veiled jabs 🙄

It depends on what we're talking about. Studying would likely prove more effective than something idiotic like "signaling." But sitting next to someone in class you know will do well, or striking gold with an exam key?

And they would be objectively wrong. I'm not going to get into the ethics of cheating, but it is certainly prevalent enough to be a problem. Many schools publish data on IAs. Unfortunately, the number of students who actually receive an IA is small compared to the staggering number who have admitted to cheating (no doubt a consequence of this "snitches get stitches culture.") I know I have read at least a couple of studies that have shown if students are given the opportunity to cheat without consequence, many will. Still, what does it matter? If an institution has one large "incident" a year that is one preventable instance too many. Nonetheless, I have personally sat in two exams where 10-20% of the scores had to be thrown out due to cheating. In the first case the professor thought seating charts were an unnecessary formality. In the second case a group of students got a hold of an exam key from a former TA.

This is quite an unreasonable standard. Said individual has no way of knowing how widespread cheating is in the class or if it will be statistically benign. Best to bring the incidence of cheating to the attention of the instructor so the integrity of the class can be protected. As I have said before, I would not personally have the stomach to "snitch."
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If you know the exam leaked and you feel that it will actually hurt you, tell the prof anonymously. The issue can be solved quickly. I think we agree here. My argument is centered on the question of whether to turn in the cheater or not. Maybe my post didn't make that clear.

The first sentence of Your first response to my OP was a not so thinly veiled jab. I followed your lead. Was It supposed to be undetected or do you just like be the only one building an argument on a disguised insult? Regardless, It was not my intention to throw mud here so I apologize. We obviously are both opinionated here.

The examples of sitting next to an A student for answers or striking an exam key are both very manageable issues If you are the witness - the basis of the entire thread here. If you know the key is loose, tip the prof. If there is no curve, that persons cheating has no effect on your work. If that person copies off of another's work, the template will still set the curve and the result will be similar.

But why would they be objectively wrong? A staggering number admit to cheating but there are relatively few IAs. Ok that makes sense but how can you assume all those cheaters have actually managed to be successful college students on paper or diminished the success of others? I assumed the data was anonymous. Ill use an anecdote again but I think it's relevant. Have you ever known an A student who made their grades by cheating? Have you ever known a student who cheats to be an A student? I have seen neither personally and this was the point I was trying to make. I just don't see how the findings you brought up object to my point or really support yours. You said one preventable instance is too many. I'm not saying you're wrong. My issue is that your argument seemed attached to bringing attention to the cheater rather than the effects of cheating on other students.
 
I've told a professor about a class mate who cheated. It was medical school level anatomy. I busted my ass studying day in and night for those exams. Yet here she was cheating her way through. I was the only one she told so I guess she found out. As we were dissecting our cadavers, she cut me with the scalpel multiple times.

Every time she came near the table I stepped away. Moral of the story, the professor changed the colors of the exam papers so she couldn't sneak in paper. No one would know the color. So can't cheat.
 
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