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Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by shik, Mar 8, 2007.
Sorry to hear about that man. It's a tough break. I have no clue on specifics of how these records are held. But, I would think really competitive programs for graduate schools would look at it very seriously. But, getting a PhD is not that bad of an idea, also have you considered doing something like peacecorps or something else that will be interesting to talk about?
And just so you know, I have been out of undergrad 4 years now, the time flys by. Keep your head up.
I like option 1 better than option 2.. LIke the previous poster I don't know what grad programs will take the cheating more seriously than the other, but I think it's a better route then it will not be on your record (supposedly) at all..
As far as the double major, I've heard and been told that if you are caught cheating it doesn't matter how well you do they will assume that those grades are because you also cheated. So that's a tough descision but just my input.. hope you figure it out..
If you want to apply now, the volunteering/apologizing/working harder/begging for mercy route will probably have much more effect than a double major.
I don't think a double major affects your status as a cheater very much at all. I'm wondering if your reasoning behind picking up another major is to prove that you didn't cheat in something that was important to you? I don't think the adcom is concerned with the cheating because "you didn't learn biology if you got caught cheating." The adcom is concerned with cheating because it shows reprehensible moral character. I'm not sure what a double-major does to repair reprehensible moral character.
I agree with DVN, doing something like peace corps will help your application much more than a PhD. And a PhD sometimes takes longer than 5 years to complete. That's 5+ years of making next to nothing, to get a degree that will not have as much weight as you think.
First of all, you changing major really doesn't say anything about you regreting that you cheated in the first place. And secondly, I don't know why you would think that grad school doesn't look at cheating as serious as med school. You might be able to get in somwhere if you are able to show that you truly did regret what you did, but I almost think that you would have to speak to the head of the grad department that you are seeking admissions to, and explain your situation.
I truly hope you learned your lesson, and that you some how are able to prove to the grad school or med school committee that you have learnt something out of this.
You cant just go and do the peace corps...its a 2-3 year commitment. If you sign up just to try and cover up your record it's going to be a tough 2 to 3 years and you are going to hate it. Peace corps are for the people who are truly interested and is willing to sacrifice their time. If you do not fit this bill, I suggest you do something else. You should not have cheated in the first place! It is going to suck because schools will assume you cheated your way to other classes as well...even I would if I caught you cheating. From my experience, students who cheat in one class, usually cheat in others. You will have to find a way to show otherwise...good luck
Is biology the class you cheated in or the class you got caught in? Very different connotations.
Get (mostly) out of the academic world (except whatever part-time classwork you want to do) and go get a job that is
3) a good lead-in to a back-up plan in case you never should get admitted; none of us has a guarantee, and you have put yourself behind one gigantic 8-ball.
Many volunteer organizations offer people live-in-counselor type of positions, very poorly paid but very useful. Of course, they care greatly about character. Do any allied health fields accept a person with cheating on his record? Barring peace corps or other dramatically service-oriented work, you might want to start there.
I'm too old to really remember this stuff, but still seem to recall that AMCAS asks if you "have EVER received any" academic disciplinary action. So thread carefully. You might end up lying on your application, which will certainly doom you, sooner or later.
Agree with other posters, that it doesn't really matter if it was an important subject you cheated in. Fact is, that you deliberately chose to take the easy route and cheat. And thats a major, major red flag in any situation, but even more so among those that want to practice medicine.
First OP wants to wait 5 years before applying, giving him/her plenty of time to do something meaningful with his/her life. And by no means did I mean for OP to try to cover up his/her cheating by going into the peace corps. What I meant was that he/she should choose to participate in an experience that will allow him to grow as an individual. Getting a PhD will help to expand his/her knowledge but not necessarily help him/her learn life lessons!!! Which OP clearly needs to learn....Point being that it doesn't have to be a PhD or the peace corps, just invest time in an experience that will allow you to grow as an individual
Medical schools will still know you cheated even after five years unless you are also a liar. The AMCAS application asks if you have EVER been accused of academic misconduct. So even if you wait five years to apply you will still have to (hopefully honestly) answer that question. If you do lie, they may still catch you and then you're toast (if you aren't already). You probably already realize this, but you shouldn't have cheated in the first place. Ask yourself, do you regret cheating or regret being caught? Either way you have to face the consequences of your actions which may include not being able to get into medical school or graduate school.
Um, I think that, while true regret can be a motivator for learning, academic dishonesty really is a tough thing to have true regret about. Are you regretful that you cheated or that you got caught?
I only say this because I wonder if you'd do a PhD or whatnot if you hadn't been caught but purely informed that your action was wrong (which you knew, I presume).
Sorry to be all lecture-y, but academic cheating really gets my goat. Cheating on taxes, that's another thing entirely.
Have you ever had any institutional action brought by your college or university? The answer to that question remains with you forever -- unless you lie in response to that question.
Can you get admitted to a PhD program in engineering with that on your record? Do you want to be an academic engineer? If yes and yes, then go for it.
From where I sit, your goose is cooked with regard to getting into med school in this century.
This is true as well...but he did state that it only stays on his record for five years, so I guess he can lie and unless the school deliberately goes to the dean of his school to ask if he was caught cheating they might not really ever know, but again, he will have a monkey watching over his back for his entire time in medical school because he could get kicked out at any time...either way it is not a pretty situation
You didn't specify how you cheated. I think in some cases, you can argue away from a permament record.
I ask because back in undergrad, I remember two girls (who were gunners and ace'd everything anyways) decided to share lab report info for an organic lab. I think they decided it was more fun and easier to do reports together and use each other's data/information. While there's nothing wrong with that, they were caught using the EXACT same data tables/charts for their reports (worlds dumbest criminals...). I mean, the TA showed their reports to the rest of us and some parts were exactly the same, down to the fonts. It was plagarism at its best.
Anyhoo, a huge deal was made of it coz they were straight A students/apple of some professor's eyes. According to the rules, both should have had a permanent record to document their cheating. In the end, I think they got off with getting zeros on those reports, but they still ended up with an A or A- or something.
I think you should try to argue to a lesser sentence. But I think those girls had clout in the department that helped them a lot.
5 years in peace corps. That should do it.
Graduate schools don't like cheaters, and they take academic misconduct very seriously. If you want to show a change of character, do the peace corps route and genuinely *demonstrate a change in personality and approach*; i.e., don't be so calculating as to figure out how you can spin this. That undermines claims that you genuinely regret it.
it's a tough situation...volunteering surely would help, and explain that well in your PS. Get LORs from ppl who could explain your honesty in academics following the cheating, I think that would help. Double major probably wouldn't help much...
by the way, the college of engineering has one of the strictest codes of conduct for cheating, you better just wait 5 years till its off your record and then go forth to graduate schools.
Sorry to hear this dude.
I would personally strongly consider going to the caribbean (instead of wasting 5 years to ''cover-up'' or show "character"). if you want to specialize in something competitive, do a few years of extra reasearch in the field your interested in after you obtain your MD from the caribbean and then attempt to match.
hold up what year is he? if hes a freshmen he can easily do 5 years no problem
Personally, if it was serious enough to warrant a 5 year mark on your transcript, I think your pooch is screwed.
I know tons of people that have cheated/plagiarized on lab reports, quizzes, papers, etc. Usually, looking at someone's quiz for answers only gets you a zero on a quiz and a slap on the wrist if you repent with the professor.
Academic misconduct marks are for serious infractions like being the ringleader in a huge finals cheating scheme or stealing the final beforehand.
Talk to your professor/TA/whatever. I remember in Orgo II, I let my lab partner borrow my finished experiment write-up because he needed some raw data. He ended up copying my entire abstract and discussion and thought it would be ok since we were partners.
I talked to my TA and told him we misunderstood something somewhere along the lines (since aforementioned ****** partner was also my friend), and he understood. He ultimately took off 10 points giving me a 90 on the lab report, influencing my overall grade in the class by about 0.000000001%.
Unfortunately, I guess you neglected to quell the fire before it reached the dean. See if you can resolve your problem at the top, maybe going back to the professor and showing him that you are genuinely sorry can add a little sway to the dean's decision.
Actually, he'd have to watch his back for the rest of his life. If he lied on his AMCAS, the school could revoke his MD degree anytime, even several years after graduation. I hate to be a downer here, but if you get caught cheating, you can pretty much kiss med school goodbye.
Whoa dude, consider yourself lucky, what you described above definitely constitutes academic dishonesty at most US schools. Your TA just cut you some slack. Even if your friend took full responsibility for the cheating, it would be at the discretion of the Dean to decide who gets what and how much punishment.
I guess so. He needed the data, and I wasn't about to walk over to a print station at 1 am, so I just gave it to him. Stupid on my part, probably. However, I think most people forget that TA's and professors are people too (I know, I ended up TA'ing orgo the next year). They understand when you do stupid things, and if it's something as trivial as a lab report that holds almost no bearing on your overall grade in the class, well I don't think they really care.
My situation is a combination of luck, taking control of the situation quickly, and the relatively minor scope of the "cheating", but it's meant to illustrate that there's "cheating" and then there's your transcript is now destroyed. At my school, orgo lab was just playtime with chemicals. Your lab grade was based more on the weekly quizzes than the actual reports, and then the overall lab grade was only factored in as a means for borderline people to beg the professor to give them a higher grade at the end of the semester. Three tests and the final dictated your grade in the class, with the final having no negative effect on your grade (i.e. you have an A in the class after the three tests, the final doesn't hurt you unless you blatantly blow it off).
If you're talking about waiting the five years until the record disappears, you're not talking about five years to rebuild your character -- you're talking about five years until you can lie on your AMCAS & hopefully get away with it. Not a good move -- as mentioned above, this leaves you open to being found out at any point down the line, up to and including revocation of your MD after it's awarded. You would be in the same boat as now (i.e., you can't practice medicine), but several years older and several hundred thousand dollars in debt.
If it is off your record, how can medical schools see that it happened?
Well I think that's what the OP is banking on, while others are speaking of the AMCAS portion that asks you "Have you ever been guilty of XXX crime or XXX academic misconduct?".
How is this considered cheating? You and your partner obviously did the same experiment, meaning you will end up with similar data and you were just showing him/her the data that you both obtained (I have had to call my partner for missing data before). Now for him to completely copy your report down is considered cheating, but in no way should you be held responsible for his actions? I dont know, maybe I dont know the full story. I have had partners ask to see my data or myself ask to see their data to make sure I had the correct numbers written down, and if for some reason my idoit partner were to just copy my whole report, I would hope it does not make me a cheater as well.
eric lindros i think your right, they cannot find out unless they have a reason to dig, and if its not on your record they wont dig, you'll have to take your chances OP, wait 5 years and go for the lie
Well in retrospect, I shouldn't have just given him my lab report; instead, maybe just my lab book which was, unfortunately, sitting in the drawer of the locked orgo lab in the locked gross chem building. That probably constitutes cheating in its strictest sense, and I have heard of people getting the book thrown at them for similar silly offenses, but that doesn't outweigh the numerous stories like mine that I have experienced and heard.
I dont know, maybe the school does random diggin on students......but if the OP does go with the lying route, you can forget any thoughts of running for public office anywhere in the future (maybe after you practice) because they will dig that stuff up..lol...i would suggest also to never mention it again, especially on SDN...you never know who is reading that stuff...and I also would suggest to never include your email address/myspace link/facebook link/mdapps on your profile because it will give you away easy...lol...have fun trying to cover it up though...one slip and it's over...good luck
Err...this question is a lil off-topic.
I happen to go to a really strict school, and we're only allowed to have visitation on weekends, and lobby visitation is only permitted at certain hours. I have never been caught with a person of the opp. sex in my room, however, I have been disciplined for being in the lobby after-hours with someone of the opp. sex twice.
Honestly, I don't regret what I did... I think it's a stupid rule. I mean... its a lobby.
However, would that count as institutional action, and would I have to report that on my AMCAS?
Pre-meds are not allowed to engage in any kind of activity that might be misinterpreted as sexual. That is time that could be spent with your textbooks.
no I dont think so...lol...what school do you go? That seems like a pretty absurd reason to not get accepted into a medical school. It doesnt really say much about your character or if you are a cheater or whatnot...It just states that you were with a girl/boy in the lobby, and although it wasnt allowed it's not something that is socially frowned on (just being with a girl/boy I mean)...there are worst things...believe me
It's not an academic infraction, so no. And get an apartment, that policy is baloney.
If discipline is an "institutional action" (comes from the school's administration) then yes, you need to report it. This will go down in adcom history along with "illegal use of an iron" and "playing on the fire escape". Why do you think that people passing through the hallway sometimes hear peals of laughter coming from the adcom office?
We don't hold it against anyone. Some of us were guilty (or guilty but not caught) of the same infractions at strict schools sometime in the last century.
Having been in college for 4 years, I think pre-meds are as bad as all the other students...they just know when to get serious and when to party it up...
Yeah... that's how I feel about it. But honestly... that institutional action got me for minute there... they made me perform community service.
And BTW, I'm a girl.
I definitely think that cheating is looked at WAY more critically by medical schools because of the ethical implications. No medical school is going to touch a candidate that had demonstrated poor ethics or immoral behavior. You'd probably have a better chance at graduate school, especially in a field where you are not responsible for people's lives. Also, if you are going to write an application essay anywhere, I suggest you improve your writing skills beyond what was demonstrated in this post, and that you write a very heart-felt essay where you talk about how you've grown since the time when you were caught cheating. Good luck to you.
I hate cheaters.
I mean, if it's off your record, then they can dig all you want but they won't find anything. I guess my question was, if it's off your academic record, is there any way they can still somehow find out, on their own, that it happend?
Brigham Young University ?
If so, it will still be technically off-limits, although MUCH less enforceable
one of these stupid threads again.... do you REALLY thing, that the OP regrets cheating? HELL NO. did he cheat in prior classes? DUH. is this his first time cheating? HELL NO.
if he DIDNT get caught cheating, he would have NOT regretted it. Only because he got caught cheating, is why he regrets it. if anyoen is too STUPID to see past the front, then i dunno what to say. if you guys honestly believe "i'm a changed man, etc, etc, i'm more mature now," the OP could have been more mature WHILE he was still cheating to STOP. not stop until you get caught. see, they way the OP see's it, is "its not cheating, until you get caught"
and please, FOR FUX SAKE DONT ACT LIKE VIRGIN MARY'S on this stupid board. YOU CAN ONLY FOOL YOURSELF.... what i mean is, "i hate cheaters, etc, etc, you should never cheat, its bad, this that " everyhone has cheated SOME HOW in their academic career, if you say no, ur lying to yourself only.
You guys are really acting like saints. I mean, c'mon...
I don't know if this has been mentioned yet (because I don't feel like reading this entire thread), but have you considered going to middle and high schools and talking about cheating and how it has effected your life? I think this would REALLY stand out to medical schools and show that you actually learned from your mistakes. This is something that I would definitely do if I was you.
On the note of cheaters, this happens A LOT in A LOT of undergrad courses. As a TA, I notice cheating in every single test that I proctor, but it is too difficult to catch. It happens, get it over it people.
Well you could apply to some foreign schools, like the carribean, who maybe a bit more lenient than some of the US MD schools. But even for the carribean you would probably have to show some course work after your offense without any sort of further disciplinary action against you. Probably same for DO schools.
OR you could start from scratch at a different undergrad (though this maybe unethical in itself). You could probably finish undergrad in 3 years, considering you really didnt cheat your way through the rest of undergrad and were able to retain some of the stuff you "supposedly" learned.
Or maybe you could do a tuff masters (not some fluff mph program or something of that sort) to prove that you can handle science.
Either way you look at it, its gonna take you a few years to recover from this....but YOU WILL RECOVER....as long as you ve changed and dont loose hope.
Yeh, there are conduct codes, then there are morality clauses lots of schools have strict rules about visitation in the dorms, but that description sounds like more than just a safety rule. If they can't hang out in the public areas, obviously they are trying to enforce some sort of moral code. Which I'm sure the OP signed. But whatever. Get off campus, do what you want, be safe, have fun, and when you graduate move somewhere that isn't so rediculous