CCOM vs KCUMB vs NYCOM

[twist25]

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I just heard back from the last school i was waiting for. I need some help deciding between these three - CCOM, KCUMB, and NYCOM. I don't really care about the location. My main focus is on match rates and especially non-primary care residencies.

Thanks!

 

[ManBroDude]

If location and tuition are thrown out, I'd say it'd be a contest between CCOM and KCUMB. Especially if you want to specialize.

 

[572776]

I couldn't find CCOM match stats, but this is the page for kcumb.
http://www.kcumb.edu/acad3/registrar_eras_statistics.asp

When I interviewed there, I got the vibe that they were not as much about primary care as other DO schools. I did not apply to CCOM or NY so can't comment on those.

 

[OhioG]

First one is CCOM, 2nd is KCUMB.

CCOM has a sick match list. KCUMB is no slouch either.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

I know nothing about nycom, but other than MSU OOS, ccom has the highest tuition. KCUMB is a great school. I haven't seen ccom either as I didn't attend my interview. Tough choice. Both are near the top.

And again, no clue about nycom so I can't comment.

 

[Mbeas]

KCUMB. The difference in match lists isn't worth 10k more per year at CCOM.

 

[necronomicon]

KCUMB. The difference in match lists isn't worth 10k more per year at CCOM.

Tough choice. CCOM's brand new facilities are really nice and have added to my excitement for going there. That being said, if you can save 10k/yr by going to KC, I think that would be a wise choice. Both have solid matches, but I would say Chicago has the upper hand as far as residency options because of the volume of institutions in the area. New York is pretty awesome, too.

Good luck...at least you're in a good position!

 

[TriagePreMed]

KCUMB. The difference in match lists isn't worth 10k more per year at CCOM.

Exactly. Why pay 40k extra?

 

[OhioG]

Exactly. Why pay 40k extra?

Paying off loans wont be a big issue unless he goes into FM or IM hospitalist.

Go to the school that fits you best and provides you the best chance to succeed. If going into CCOM puts you at a better chance to get a residency in a specialty in an area you want to be in, 40K is nothing.

EDIT: Same goes for KCUMB.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

KCUMB. The difference in match lists isn't worth 10k more per year at CCOM.

You know, I would even say that KCUMB's 2011 match list is more impressive than CCOM's.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Paying off loans wont be a big issue unless he goes into FM or IM hospitalist.

Go to the school that fits you best and provides you the best chance to succeed. If going into CCOM puts you at a better chance to get a residency in a specialty in an area you want to be in, 40K is nothing.

EDIT: Same goes for KCUMB.

This "40k is nothing" is a naive way of thinking. Just because you can might be able to pay it back doesn't mean you should waste your money on it. It's the same line they feed to kids going to non-ivy-status private universities for their BA/BS. Graduates of all medical schools can find residencies across the country. This is why they have audition rotations.

 

[bsa]

Listen to TriagePreMed. Your objective in med school is to leave with as little debt as possible. Everyone believes he/she can get into the specialty they want but guess what, the majority of students end up in primary care. Never ignore the monetary side of things.

 

[twist25]

Listen to TriagePreMed. Your objective in med school is to leave with as little debt as possible. Everyone believes he/she can get into the specialty they want but guess what, the majority of students end up in primary care. Never ignore the monetary side of things.

true, very true ... orrrrr i could just take a shot at mcat again and shoot for my state school (MD) for next year (these DO's are gunna be there next year as well) ... much less tuition AND a lil easier time getting into specialities..... aaahhh decisions decisions

 

[Oo Cipher oO]

true, very true ... orrrrr i could just take a shot at mcat again and shoot for my state school (MD) for next year (these DO's are gunna be there next year as well) ... much less tuition AND a lil easier time getting into specialities..... aaahhh decisions decisions

If you turn down an acceptance a school has offered you I think you can pretty much kiss that school goodbye if you apply to that school next year. Would all the money and time spent on MCAT and new application cycle be worth the money you MIGHT save by getting into a state MD school? For me, no.

 

[bsa]

If you are able to go MD, you should definitely go for it unless you are gung-ho about OMM.

When people say that tuition is a lot less they mean it, especially from now on, tuition will no longer be subsidized so your debt will be magnified. Don't let the face value of your debt fool you. Consider what your debt will really be by the time you are able to pay it back.

Also, with regard to specializing, MD students don't have a slightly easier time specializing, they have a tremendously easier time for two reasons: proximity to big name physicians in the field who they can get LORs from and no degree bias.

That is IF you can get into an MD school.

 

[necronomicon]

If you are able to go MD, you should definitely go for it unless you are gung-ho about OMM.

When people say that tuition is a lot less they mean it, especially from now on, tuition will no longer be subsidized so your debt will be magnified. Don't let the face value of your debt fool you. Consider what your debt will really be by the time you are able to pay it back.

Also, with regard to specializing, MD students don't have a slightly easier time specializing, they have a tremendously easier time for two reasons: proximity to big name physicians in the field who they can get LORs from and no degree bias.

That is IF you can get into an MD school.

This is true...but it is certainly possible to specialize as a DO. Lucky for the OP, both of the schools he is talking about have good matches.

 

[bsa]

Definitely possible to specialize. I just said that it is a lot easier as an MD.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Also, with regard to specializing, MD students don't have a slightly easier time specializing, they have a tremendously easier time for two reasons: proximity to big name physicians in the field who they can get LORs from and no degree bias.

This is a bit deceptive. Better chances exist in comparison to DO, but if you factor for the number of graduates and specialties, calling it "tremendous" is misleading. Some advantage exists, but you also have to be an MD rockstar too, which the majority of med students are not.

true, very true ... orrrrr i could just take a shot at mcat again and shoot for my state school (MD) for next year (these DO's are gunna be there next year as well) ... much less tuition AND a lil easier time getting into specialities..... aaahhh decisions decisions

Then kiss the DO door goodbye because as soon as they know you turned down a DO acceptance, no other DO schools will want you, or at the least the one you were accepted won't want you again and you'll have to lie about why you're reapplying. Then if MD doesn't pan out... well, better enjoy the Caribbean.

 

[necronomicon]

This is a bit deceptive. Better chances exist in comparison to DO, but if you factor for the number of graduates and specialties, calling it "tremendous" is misleading. Some advantage exists, but you also have to be an MD rockstar too, which the majority of med students are not.

Then kiss the DO door goodbye because as soon as they know you turned down a DO acceptance, no other DO schools will want you, or at the least the one you were accepted won't want you again and you'll have to lie about why you're reapplying. Then if MD doesn't pan out... well, better enjoy the Caribbean.

Agreed...pretty big risk, if you ask me. It's not like you can be a mediocre student at an MD school and place in the more competitive residencies, either (there are circumstances, of course).

 

[surgeryDO]

I would never turn down an acceptance to go back and retake the MCAT and try for MD. Obviously you've already done something right. There's too much risk and uncertainty in the whole application process, let alone after you have rejected acceptances at 3 schools. In no way does that sound like a good plan. You'd be shooting yourself in the foot, IMO.

 

[drizzt3117]

Uh, you don't have to be a rockstar to specialize as a MD. Many mid/low tier MD schools (look at mcw/cms match lists) put more people into anesthesia or radiology than internal med. Specialty choice as a MD student is all about preference.

This is a bit deceptive. Better chances exist in comparison to DO, but if you factor for the number of graduates and specialties, calling it "tremendous" is misleading. Some advantage exists, but you also have to be an MD rockstar too, which the majority of med students are not.



Then kiss the DO door goodbye because as soon as they know you turned down a DO acceptance, no other DO schools will want you, or at the least the one you were accepted won't want you again and you'll have to lie about why you're reapplying. Then if MD doesn't pan out... well, better enjoy the Caribbean.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Uh, you don't have to be a rockstar to specialize as a MD. Many mid/low tier MD schools (look at mcw/cms match lists) put more people into anesthesia or radiology than internal med. Specialty choice as a MD student is all about preference.

Did I say you have to be a rockstar or did I say your school has to be a rockstar?

 

[drizzt3117]

Did I say you have to be a rockstar or did I say your school has to be a rockstar?

Do you think all the 31 people who went into anesthesia there are rockstars? I bet the average there was just above the anes md senior average of 223.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Do you think all the 31 people who went into anesthesia there are rockstars? I bet the average there was just above the anes md senior average of 223.

Specializing in Anesthesia is not very hard for a DO either. If your criteria is any specialty, then sure, many aren't rockstars. But we all know there's a HUGE difference between psychiatry and ENT. Most people boast easier to specialize in highly competitive fields, not things like EM, Anesthesia, PM&R, Psych, etc.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

you guys are arguing amongst yourselves, but you are also forgetting that there is a thread that the OP started in the osteo forum trying to argue SGU over KCUMB. That is the important thing here.

 

[TriagePreMed]

you guys are arguing amongst yourselves, but you are also forgetting that there is a thread that the OP started in the osteo forum trying to argue SGU over KCUMB. That is the important thing here.

One of the rare instances I have to disagree with you. Looking at that thread, it seems he was inquiring and not advocating for SGU over KCUMB, although I must admit I am still surprised that someone that applied Osteo didn't know SGU and other Caribbean options are abysmally terrible.

 

[donkeykong1]

If you have the cash go CCOM. If not then KCUMB. Study hard for the comlex/usmle. get a score that corresponds to the average or above for a specialty, apply broadly and you'll match.

 

[Oxer45]

I just heard back from the last school i was waiting for. I need some help deciding between these three - CCOM, KCUMB, and NYCOM. I don't really care about the location. My main focus is on match rates and especially non-primary care residencies.

Thanks!

This is a pointless exercise. No one attended all 3 or even 2 schools, so we cant really compare. Also match rates dont tell you anything. Over the last 2 years, people with the highest GPA/COMLEX in my school went to peds (both females) cause they liked it and cause of the lifestyle. The people who went to derm and ortho had lower scores than them. Also, most females (50% of my class) avoid surgical sub specialties cause of the hours + longer training, even though they are qualified. And its not just what you get into, but where. Anesthesia at univ hospital=impressive. Anesthesia in a hospital about to be shut down=worrisome.

The difficulty of matching into a field is inversely proportional to your scores.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

One of the rare instances I have to disagree with you. Looking at that thread, it seems he was inquiring and not advocating for SGU over KCUMB, although I must admit I am still surprised that someone that applied Osteo didn't know SGU and other Caribbean options are abysmally terrible.

sorry. more of a joke.

 

[drizzt3117]

Specializing in Anesthesia is not very hard for a DO either. If your criteria is any specialty, then sure, many aren't rockstars. But we all know there's a HUGE difference between psychiatry and ENT. Most people boast easier to specialize in highly competitive fields, not things like EM, Anesthesia, PM&R, Psych, etc.

That may be, but only 4 people from CCOM went into anes, compared to ~30 from CMS right up the road. As far as surgical specialties go, DOs just don't match ACGME residencies. My MD school put more people into ortho this year than all DO schools combined have in the last 2 years. It put more into ENT, Neurosurg, and Plastics than all DO schools combined in the past 5 years.

 

[DocEspana]

Are we counting or disregarding AOA residencies for that stat above?

 

[TeamZissou]

First one is CCOM, 2nd is KCUMB.

CCOM has a sick match list. KCUMB is no slouch either.

I'm biased but I like ours (CCOM).

Where do you wanna live for 4 years? Do you have family nearby? Where do you wanna do residency? There are a lot more aspects to choosing a school than matchlists, especially given the coming matches from 2015+.

 

[drizzt3117]

Are we counting or disregarding AOA residencies for that stat above?

Yes. Almost all AOA programs are community-based with a few notable exceptions; the majority if not most allo grads in surgical specialties will do residency at academic programs. With upcoming requirements that one attend an ACGME residency to do an ACGME fellowship, this will become more relevant IMO.

 

[DocEspana]

Yes. Almost all AOA programs are community-based with a few notable exceptions; the majority if not most allo grads in surgical specialties will do residency at academic programs. With upcoming requirements that one attend an ACGME residency to do an ACGME fellowship, this will become more relevant IMO.

yes, but your using a stat that ignores the AOA spots for the competitive residencies. One of the nicer things about the AOA (and there arent many in my book) is if you are reaching high (like ENT/Plastics/Uro/etc) they only happen at big research centers which would be quite equivalent to the ACGME spots. Are they a ton? No. But when you're discussing 1-3 DO students matching in these fields on the ACGME side each year. Having 15-30 spots per specialty in the AOA at highly respected sites changes the picture of "can you become a x-specialty" commentary a lot. Uro is a great example of a place where the AOA spots are just as good as all but the most elite AUA locations, and it changes the image from 1-2 matches a year to 21-22. Not all fields, not even most fields, in the AOA are like that. But the ones that are hard to get in the ACGME generally are.

I didn't list anesthesia because i think ACGME anesthesia is a whole different world from AOA gas and counting AOA gas along with ACGME spots DO's matched would be disingenuous by my own standards.

still... i find it hard that you say DOs dont match to anesthesia, when we represent 10.0% of all ACGME matches in anesthesia. We only represent 8.8% of the match applicants when solely comparing USMD vs DO, and only 6.7% of the match when you count foreign physicians and offshore students. so I think that ACGME gas is pretty DO friendly seeing as we match just as easily as MD students do, perhaps with even a certain degree of *over-representation* (locations, quality, whatever, is a different matter that I cant weigh in on because I have no clue of the results. only the stats of the matter)

 

[drizzt3117]

Which academic centers are you talking about? The urology matches for CCOM are cook x 2 and some comm hosp in Michigan. While 3 uro matches are great, looking at a low tier MD school like Drexel, their matches were Ohio state, Minnesota, and Oklahoma, obvious legit academic centers. You can't compare ACGME and AOA residencies in terms of their academic productivity; the top 50 programs in every specialty are MD in NIH funding (source, brimr.org)

I agree that ACGME anes and EM are very reachable for DO, outside of the top academic places.

 

[DocEspana]

Detroit medical center, a 2,000 (not a typo) bed hospital, is some community hospital in michigan?

Cooke, one of the largest teaching hospitals *in the world*, isnt impressive enough?. Believe me, DMC and Cook is better than ohio, min and oklahoma.

I mean you may not know the specifics of the hospital or what the match sites mean, so I can let it go after having my fun with the incredulous remark 😉 Its not like any of the 5 sites mentioned are in any way shape or form bad. I was just noting that the AOA does compensate for the fields where DOs very very rarely match by having a small cadre of highly respected sites that they locked up some of the more elusive residencies at. Are they enough, probably not, but I can't think of any good reason to ignore them when it comes to comparing DO and MD matching in the field.

unlike, say, gas where I would totally ignore AOA matching in the field because the opportunities are so different between the two match systems for the residents.

 

[TeamZissou]

For a DO to match ACGME gas I good rule of thumb is they have to take a USMLE and score 220+ to have a good chance at matching. Attainable yes, a drop in the bucket, not really.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Yes. Almost all AOA programs are community-based with a few notable exceptions; the majority if not most allo grads in surgical specialties will do residency at academic programs. With upcoming requirements that one attend an ACGME residency to do an ACGME fellowship, this will become more relevant IMO.

Even if the quality is below that of a ACGME residency ( Not saying they are), it is disingenuous to not include the AOA match in this conversation. Especially if half of the school's student body will be obtaining training under the AOA. Also correct me if I'm wrong, but CMS/RFU has a significantly larger student body than CCOM. Not to also mention there may be a component of preferential selection that could skew the data here a bit.

 

[drizzt3117]

Uh, have you been to cook county? I can't think of a more malignant place to do residency; amount of teaching = 0. DMC has half its programs on probation. Take a look at the attrition rates at some of the programs you're espousing... Surgery is high in general, but cook's programs had > 50% attrition for urology and neurosurg according to one of my friends at northwestern who rotates there. Nm that the MD schools were discussing are among the lowest ranked MD programs in the country but were still quite impressive. Our matches this year were ucsf, michigan, and UChicago for reference.

Detroit medical center, a 2,000 (not a typo) bed hospital, is some community hospital in michigan?

Cooke, one of the largest teaching hospitals *in the world*, isnt impressive enough?. Believe me, DMC and Cook is better than ohio, min and oklahoma.

I mean you may not know the specifics of the hospital or what the match sites mean, so I can let it go after having my fun with the incredulous remark 😉 Its not like any of the 5 sites mentioned are in any way shape or form bad. I was just noting that the AOA does compensate for the fields where DOs very very rarely match by having a small cadre of highly respected sites that they locked up some of the more elusive residencies at. Are they enough, probably not, but I can't think of any good reason to ignore them when it comes to comparing DO and MD matching in the field.

unlike, say, gas where I would totally ignore AOA matching in the field because the opportunities are so different between the two match systems for the residents.

 

[TeamZissou]

Someone else posted this list for CCOM 2012 match.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=18921&d=1332788126

 

[bsa]

To summarize:
Match list - CCOM >= KCUMB
Value - KCUMB > CCOM

 

[FrkyBgStok]

you guys are arguing amongst yourselves, but you are also forgetting that there is a thread that the OP started in the osteo forum trying to argue SGU over KCUMB. That is the important thing here.

One of the rare instances I have to disagree with you. Looking at that thread, it seems he was inquiring and not advocating for SGU over KCUMB, although I must admit I am still surprised that someone that applied Osteo didn't know SGU and other Caribbean options are abysmally terrible.

Looks like I was correct after all.

 

[SoulinNeed]

Uh, have you been to cook county? I can't think of a more malignant place to do residency; amount of teaching = 0. DMC has half its programs on probation. Take a look at the attrition rates at some of the programs you're espousing... Surgery is high in general, but cook's programs had > 50% attrition for urology and neurosurg according to one of my friends at northwestern who rotates there. Nm that the MD schools were discussing are among the lowest ranked MD programs in the country but were still quite impressive. Our matches this year were ucsf, michigan, and UChicago for reference.

This is just untrue. Cook County is an absolutely fine teaching hospital. Hell, you'll see things there, and be exposed to more rare cases than most places in the country. Secondly, you count discount AOA residencies just because they don't fit into what you WANT to do post residency. That ACGME requirement hasn't been passed, but what if you didn't want to do a fellowship? What if you don't want to work in academia past residency? An AOA surgical residency will allow you to practice in that field, and make the same as your MD equivalent. If I remember correctly, CCOM actually had more students go into surgical residencies (AOA included) than CMS last year (or the year before).

It's up to the preferences of the individual student, but it's not fair to dismiss them just because they don't match your preferences.

 

[CpGisland]

I would say its between KCUMB and CCOM. If money does not matter CCOM because your 3rd and 4th year rotations are at some great hospitals not to say KCUMB doesnt have great rotation sites. I believe the extra $$$ go to securing rotation sites for CCOM students.

I don't think CCOM records their lectures I may be wrong but I wouldnt underestimate the importance of this.

 

[torch2ndalltrch]

I don't think CCOM records their lectures I may be wrong but I wouldnt underestimate the importance of this.

They don't. I have a few friends that go there and they said that you have to do that yourself. Not that big a deal, really.

 

[doublefrick]

Kcumb!!!!