Chances for recovering addict

[cheburashka2]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post ever on this forum, but I would love to get some input on my current situation. I'll get my stats out of the way first...

cGPA 3.9
sGPA 3.92
MCAT 40+ old scale (wont list specifics for issue of anonymity)

I have been building on EC's and clinical exposure for the last few years but won't get into specifics. I'm mostly concerned about my history of addiction (heroin) which I battled throughout college and a bit after. I don't want to dwell on it, but I dug myself into a lonely, narrow shell of a life - where the most important thing to me for much too long a time was using. I managed to maintain a double life, with some-semblance of normalcy when viewed from the outside, for longer than I could have imagined being capable of doing so. Anyway, things finally got bad enough that I hit bottom, got clean, and have managed to turn my life around. I have over three years clean, am heavily involved in 12-step fellowships and the service that goes along with it. At this point, I'm grateful for my addiction, as it ended up introducing me to a way of life I never thought possible - and certainly never imagined for myself.

The thing is, I have a spotty legal record (all my own fault of course) from my active addiction years. I have no convictions per se. However, I do have two arrests for heroin possession that have been expunged. With this said, I can legally answer no on the primary application (I will disclose on secondaries that ask me to do so), but was wondering if I have any shot at obtaining a license down the road? Any input would be great - I don't need any comments on the morality involved in pursing this career choice - I've thought about it deeply for a number of years now, and am confident in my ability to stay clean with the help of others and to lead a productive life of service. I'm just curious whether this is even feasible given my record, and the understandable hesitancy licensing boards will have dealing with me. Thanks in advance

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[benjamin94559]

I would say based on this post if anyone can show that they can change and get over a problem it would be you but like you have said, you can see why and where schools/liscence boards/"the man" might get concerned. Academically you're a golden boy/girl which makes things more crapshooty. With all this work done, if I were in your shoes I would apply. you never know right?

keep in mind with the primary app I'm pretty sure you're obligated by AMCAS rules to disclose expunged stuff even though its not legally binding so mull on that a bit before you make the decision to sweep it under the rug.

 

[freak7]

I would say based on this post if anyone can show that they can change and get over a problem it would be you but like you have said, you can see why and where schools/liscence boards/"the man" might get concerned. Academically you're a golden boy/girl which makes things more crapshooty. With all this work done, if I were in your shoes I would apply. you never know right?

keep in mind with the primary app I'm pretty sure you're obligated by AMCAS rules to disclose expunged stuff even though its not legally binding so mull on that a bit before you make the decision to sweep it under the rug.

From AMCAS instructions:
Felony:
You must indicate whether you have ever been convicted of, or pleaded guilty or no contest to, a Felony crime, excluding 1) any offense for which you were adjudicated as a juvenile or 2) convictions which have been expunged or sealed by a court (in states where applicable).
Misdemeanor:
You must indicate whether you ever been convicted of, or pleaded guilty or no contest to, a Misdemeanor crime, excluding 1) any offense for which you were adjudicated as a juvenile, 2) any convictions which have been expunged or sealed by a court, or 3) any misdemeanor convictions for which any probation has been completed and the case dismissed by the court (in states where applicable).

Only expunged IA's need to be reported.

 

[Goro]

Many secondaries will ask about arrests too.

We need to hear from the big guns, OP: @gyngyn; @LizzyM ; @gonnif ; @mimelim @Law2Doc @Winged Scapula

 

[Toutie]

I don't think the question here is so much about getting into med school...but being able to be a licensed physician.

 

[Chromium Surfer]

OP I think @aProgDirector would also be able to shed some insight. Either way congrats on getting over your addiction and I wish you the best in life!

 

[Crayola227]

I can't speak to licensing

all I can say is that I personally know of a medical student in my own school who was a recovered heroin addict, was open about it, and did advocacy for certain groups in med school

so I know for a fact there is at least one MD out there who is an open recovered heroin addict

I think you would still be able to be licensed, it really depends on your record, what you can show you have done to have this under control, what specialty you pursue, and the "flavor" of the state medical board you are applying to - which believe me, their attitudes and what they require with PHPs (Physician Health Programs) can vary greatly state to state

feel free to look up PHPs and try to gather more info on it

I am linking you to my intern megapost, just cuz it talks a little bit about mental healthy, disability, and substance use and navigating the medical field that might be useful to you, just find the links that seem relevant

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/things-to-do-to-shine-in-pgy-1.1188633/#post-17640862

 

[TaupePremed]

You can definitely get licensed, theoretically. It is not a guarantee for anyone.

I suspect getting into med school will be the harder part. If a licensing board initially denies your request, you can appeal and do whatever they want to demonstrate your sobriety and competency.

Good luck, and good work on the recovery (and MCAT and GPA).

 

[cheburashka2]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I have lots to consider and really appreciate all of the input

 

[Med Ed]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post ever on this forum, but I would love to get some input on my current situation. I'll get my stats out of the way first...

cGPA 3.9
sGPA 3.92
MCAT 40+ old scale (wont list specifics for issue of anonymity)

I have been building on EC's and clinical exposure for the last few years but won't get into specifics. I'm mostly concerned about my history of addiction (heroin) which I battled throughout college and a bit after. I don't want to dwell on it, but I dug myself into a lonely, narrow shell of a life - where the most important thing to me for much too long a time was using. I managed to maintain a double life, with some-semblance of normalcy when viewed from the outside, for longer than I could have imagined being capable of doing so. Anyway, things finally got bad enough that I hit bottom, got clean, and have managed to turn my life around. I have over three years clean, am heavily involved in 12-step fellowships and the service that goes along with it. At this point, I'm grateful for my addiction, as it ended up introducing me to a way of life I never thought possible - and certainly never imagined for myself.

The thing is, I have a spotty legal record (all my own fault of course) from my active addiction years. I have no convictions per se. However, I do have two arrests for heroin possession that have been expunged. With this said, I can legally answer no on the primary application (I will disclose on secondaries that ask me to do so), but was wondering if I have any shot at obtaining a license down the road? Any input would be great - I don't need any comments on the morality involved in pursing this career choice - I've thought about it deeply for a number of years now, and am confident in my ability to stay clean with the help of others and to lead a productive life of service. I'm just curious whether this is even feasible given my record, and the understandable hesitancy licensing boards will have dealing with me. Thanks in advance

You can get a medical license, it's a DEA number that would prove tricky.

If you do get accepted, it will behoove you to disclose your past to the dean of students on day 1 and get enrolled in the Physician Health Program. Having this be above board with key members of the administration will keep them in your corner, which will be critical to you navigating the waters downstream.

Also, you would probably do best if you eliminate up front any specialties that prescribe narcotics as a regular part of the job. Anesthesiology is out for sure.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

You will get licensed. By the time you get to the point where you're applying for your own license / DEA, you'll be clean for over 10 years -- you must have a few years by now + 4 years of medical school + 3 (or more) years of residency. Getting a license is likely to be more complicated and will require some extra paperwork, time, and perhaps an interview by the board. And they might attach some monitoring, or require you to enroll with the state's physician health program (PHP). But this will not stop you.

The same is true about residency programs -- this will be far enough in the past that it shouldn't affect your application much. Will some programs pass on you because of it? Probably, but I expect that will be rare and you'll do fine.

You probably will have some limits regarding fields. Anesthesia would be a very poor choice -- you would routinely be holding syringes full of narcotics, propofol, etc. This is not the type of situation you want to place yourself in, as it could easily undermine your recovery.

Medical school is stressful, and stress can lead to relapse. I would encourage you to engage with resources early. A relapse in medical school would change everything for the worse.

 

[mimelim]

I have a hard time imagining this holding you back from getting into medical school and being licensed. No convictions, several arrests for possession, otherwise good candidate? Sure, some may pass on you at various stages, but if everything else checks out, by the time you hit the real questions (licensing), you will be in your late 20s, early 30s, which is more than enough time to demonstrate that you should be allowed to practice.

I don't even think that the DEA number will be difficult. Having just gotten mine a little while ago, it is hard to imagine your situation coming up. I mean ffs I know of physicians still practicing with multiple convictions (albeit from after they got their license) for drug charges.

 

[Med Ed]

I don't even think that the DEA number will be difficult.

I have been through something similar with a student, and the 10 year mark is significant for the DEA number. For whatever reason the powers that be apparently really deemphasize things that occurred over a decade prior to the application.

 

[DokterMom]

You sound like a high-risk, but also high-reward candidate, and I'm betting someone (or more than one) will decide you're a risk well worth taking. Apply broadly and best of luck to you. (And congratulations)

 

[Promethean]

I know at least one current med student who is very open about being in recovery. I know of at least a couple of others who never got caught, and so were able to avoid officially disclosing their substance abuse histories.

Arrests are not convictions. People can be arrested and turn out to be innocent of any wrong doing. That doesn't seem to be the case in your situation, by your own admission, but I find it very concerning that anyone asks about arrests. I get that the point is to discover evolving situations where there may be some legal issue that is still in the pipeline. But after a certain amount of time, or once an arrest has been expunged, asking about arrests implies that one is guilty unless proven innocent. That may be how things are done at some schools, but it doesn't seem right to me.

Agree with others who say that you should be thoughtful about your specialty choices, avoiding those where diversion is too easy. And be sure that you have a robust support system during school, residency, and beyond.

 

[born2run]

.

 

[Humble Sloth]

You sound like a high-risk, but also high-reward candidate, and I'm betting someone (or more than one) will decide you're a risk well worth taking. Apply broadly and best of luck to you. (And congratulations)

"high-risk"

I wonder if you would use the same condescendingly ignorant language towards substance dependent individuals if they were your son, daughter, brother, sister, mother or cousin.

People like OP are economic and societal victims. They have been mentally, emotionally and physically abused and ostracized a million times, a hundred different ways we can not even comprehend. No one wakes up and says, "Today I want to become an opiate addict because I love stealing from what little family and friends I have. I love preforming sexual acts on dirty, dark, dilapidated alleyways."

Perhaps one day when you mature a little you will realize that no means of measure should define our limitless love for humanity and will understand how anyone's life circumstances can flip in mere weeks. If you want to unceremoniously judge people you should go into law enforcement or the military. Healthcare is not a good fit for you.

 

[mw18]

"high-risk"

I wonder if you would use the same condescendingly ignorant language towards substance dependent individuals if they were your son, daughter, brother, sister, mother or cousin.

People like OP are economic and societal victims. They have been mentally, emotionally and physically abused and ostracized a million times, a hundred different ways we can not even comprehend. No one wakes up and says, "Today I want to become an opiate addict because I love stealing from what little family and friends I have. I love preforming sexual acts on dirty, dark, dilapidated alleyways."

Perhaps one day when you mature a little you will realize that no means of measure should define our limitless love for humanity and will understand how anyone's life circumstances can flip in mere weeks. If you want to unceremoniously judge people you should go into law enforcement or the military. Healthcare is not a good fit for you.

I don't want to speak for DokterMom, but I think she was speaking more toward the way his application will be viewed than to her own feelings specifically about OP. I know that if a family member of mine, or if my own son, were to be applying to medical school with a history of substance abuse I would have no issue telling them they would be viewed as a "high-risk" applicant. Since I would believe in my own son, and since in this situation he has a LizzyM of 79+ and has shown great strength in overcoming his addiction, then I would also call him "high reward." It seems like you just wanted to get on a soapbox, when everyone else was just interested in giving pragmatic, unbiased and not at all shaming advice.

 

[Humble Sloth]

I don't want to speak for DokterMom, but I think she was speaking more toward the way his application will be viewed than to her own feelings specifically about OP. I know that if a family member of mine, or if my own son, were to be applying to medical school with a history of substance abuse I would have no issue telling them they would be viewed as a "high-risk" applicant. Since I would believe in my own son, and since in this situation he has a LizzyM of 79+ and has shown great strength in overcoming his addiction, then I would also call him "high reward." It seems like you just wanted to get on a soapbox, when everyone else was just interested in giving pragmatic, unbiased and not at all shaming advice.

"will decide you're a risk well worth taking"
DokterMom literally defined OP as a "risk". She defined OP as a noun. A risk. She didn't say what OP was doing was risky. She called her a risk. As if that is the defining trait of OP. If distilling down someone completely as a "high-risk" isn't shaming, i don't know what is.

 

[LizzyM]

"will decide you're a risk well worth taking"
DokterMom literally defined OP as a "risk". She defined OP as a noun. A risk. She didn't say what OP was doing was risky. She called her a risk. As if that is the defining trait of OP. If distilling down someone completely as a "high-risk" isn't shaming, i don't know what is.

Get used to it. We use the expression "high risk/high reward" at virtually every adcom meeting where admission decisions are being made. It is a very common expression in medicine as well. This could well be an adjective where the noun is unspoken and could be candidate or patient or surgical procedure, etc.

 

[Humble Sloth]

Get used to it. We use the expression "high risk/high reward" at virtually every adcom meeting where admission decisions are being made. It is a very common expression in medicine as well. This could well be an adjective where the noun is unspoken and could be candidate or patient or surgical procedure, etc.

And i'm sure the KKK uses terms that are highly unsavory for describing minorities at their private meetings. That doesn't mean I have to listen to that derogatory, negative, putdown, condescending bull---- here on a professional public forum. People need to respect themselves and other professionals on here. This website is a positive environment for sharing information and helping others. Defining someone as a "risk" is terminology I would expect to see on stormfront.org

 

[Crayola227]

"high-risk"

I wonder if you would use the same condescendingly ignorant language towards substance dependent individuals if they were your son, daughter, brother, sister, mother or cousin.

People like OP are economic and societal victims. They have been mentally, emotionally and physically abused and ostracized a million times, a hundred different ways we can not even comprehend. No one wakes up and says, "Today I want to become an opiate addict because I love stealing from what little family and friends I have. I love preforming sexual acts on dirty, dark, dilapidated alleyways."

Perhaps one day when you mature a little you will realize that no means of measure should define our limitless love for humanity and will understand how anyone's life circumstances can flip in mere weeks. If you want to unceremoniously judge people you should go into law enforcement or the military. Healthcare is not a good fit for you.

out of line

 

[Affiche]

And i'm sure the KKK uses terms that are highly unsavory for describing minorities at their private meetings. That doesn't mean I have to listen to that derogatory, negative, putdown, condescending bull---- here on a professional public forum. People need to respect themselves and other professionals on here. This website is a positive environment for sharing information and helping others. Defining someone as a "risk" is terminology I would expect to see on stormfront.org

You're sounding like a fool.

Addiction history is high-risk because of the relatively high rate of relapse. OP came here for candid advice, and he/she is getting it. You can knock off the character attack because not only is it out of line but it's completely uncalled for, especially since @DokterMom completely offered encouragement to the OP.

Shouldn't you be lurking in the pharmacy forum?

 

[Affiche]

@cheburashka2 congratulations on your recovery. I sincerely commend you on the hard work you've put into getting here and the level of maturity you've shown in taking responsibility for your previous decisions, which is a very hard thing to do. Good luck on your application cycle and if you ever need help with a school list or PS/secondary editing, please don't hesitate to reach out to me.

 

[DokterMom]

I don't want to speak for DokterMom, but I think she was speaking more toward the way his application will be viewed than to her own feelings specifically about OP. I know that if a family member of mine, or if my own son, were to be applying to medical school with a history of substance abuse I would have no issue telling them they would be viewed as a "high-risk" applicant. Since I would believe in my own son, and since in this situation he has a LizzyM of 79+ and has shown great strength in overcoming his addiction, then I would also call him "high reward." It seems like you just wanted to get on a soapbox, when everyone else was just interested in giving pragmatic, unbiased and not at all shaming advice.

Thank you - that's exactly what I meant.

And if it makes you feel better Sloth, it was only efficiency of language that motivated me to call the OP "a risk well worth taking" instead of "a candidate with a substantially higher degree of risk compared to other candidates who appears to nonetheless be well worth accepting."

There was no offense intended, and frankly, I think you had to reach to find it.

 

[Crayola227]

OP - I would also be willing to look over your app/PS/secondaries

 

[Med Ed]

I love preforming sexual acts on dirty, dark, dilapidated alleyways."

Alleyways need love, too.

All applicants have a risk/reward profile, and every acceptance is a bet.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

And i'm sure the KKK uses terms that are highly unsavory for describing minorities at their private meetings. That doesn't mean I have to listen to that derogatory, negative, putdown, condescending bull---- here on a professional public forum. People need to respect themselves and other professionals on here. This website is a positive environment for sharing information and helping others. Defining someone as a "risk" is terminology I would expect to see on stormfront.org

 

[Affiche]

It's nothing personal to DokterMom. This is just @Humble Sloth's MO. Posted the exact same thing in another thread:

"These leeches of society pay nothing to get their fix"

I wonder if you would use the same disgustingly abrasive, condescendingly ignorant language towards substance dependent individuals if they were your son, daughter, brother, sister, mother or cousin.

These people are economic and societal victims. They have been mentally, emotionally and physically abused and ostracized a million times, a hundred different ways we can not even comprehend. No one wakes up and says, "Today I want to become an opiate addict because I love stealing from what little family and friends I have. I love preforming sexual acts on dirty, dark, dilapidated alleyways."

Perhaps one day when you mature a little you will realize that no means of measure should define our limitless love for humanity and will understand how anyone's life circumstances can flip in mere weeks. If you want to unceremoniously judge people you should go into law enforcement or the military. Healthcare is not a good fit for you.

 

[JustAPhD]

And i'm sure the KKK uses terms that are highly unsavory for describing minorities at their private meetings. That doesn't mean I have to listen to that derogatory, negative, putdown, condescending bull---- here on a professional public forum. People need to respect themselves and other professionals on here. This website is a positive environment for sharing information and helping others. Defining someone as a "risk" is terminology I would expect to see on stormfront.org

*Sees "account on hold"*

Ah yes, that was quick.

 

[LuluLovesMe]

Get used to it. We use the expression "high risk/high reward" at virtually every adcom meeting where admission decisions are being made. It is a very common expression in medicine as well. This could well be an adjective where the noun is unspoken and could be candidate or patient or surgical procedure, etc.

What are some more common examples of high risk/high reward candidates?

 

[LizzyM]

Most often an applicant who brings diversity to the class due to URM, veteran status, disadvantaged, and/or physical disability or other unusual characteristics (sometimes more than one of these) with an excellent interview and with grades and scores at <10th percentile for matriculants at our school.

 

[cheburashka2]

Well I feel like I should chime in here, so as not to tacitly approve of humble sloth's attack on other posters. I just wanted to say that I'm amazed by the feedback that I've gotten, and honestly, rather surprised by how overwhelmingly supportive it has been. I certainly didn't perceive any mention of being labeled 'high risk' as an attack, but rather an honest appraisal of how adcoms are likely to see me (and rightfully so I might add). So again, thanks to everyone for the constructive responses, and for offering to help further down the road. I'm actually sort of dumbfounded by the kindness I've encountered here.

 

[On_The_Way_Up]

I wish you the very best. I have a family member that is a recovering drug addict and at one point they almost committed suicide. I am so thankful they are alive today and making strides in recovery. I am all for mental health and drug addiction recovery. I'm glad you are doing better now. Something you could do is volunteer in programs where you can go speak to people about recovering from drug addiction. Jails and at risk youth you could speak to and volunteer with. Or you can volunteer at a mental health facility or drug addiction rehab facility. Outpatient or inpatient. You could also volunteer with D.A.R.E. This will show ADCOMS and others your road to recovery, how you have made the right choices since, and you are helping others through their struggles. That is what my family member is doing now actually. And I think I am going to join this family member of mine and make it some of my volunteering time.