Charging tuition to do a residency

Started by 297point1
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297point1

297point1

Breaking kayfabe
Verified Member
Pharmacist
15+ Year Member
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Statement made by a presenter at the AACP Annual Meeting on Tuesday afternoon:
"It's not a position I support, and it is only chatter right now, but there has been discussion that residency programs are considering charging tuition to individuals who do residencies."
[The wording might not be exact, but that was the gist of it.]

The audience, which had been engaged and lively, fell silent. The students in the room mumbled and groaned.

Has anyone else heard this? Cause that would be a game changer.
 
Programs that would need to charge for residents to make it worth their while are not utilizing them properly.

Also, if I was a pre-Pharm student right now Id get out so freaking fast, and Ive never felt that way before.

6.8%...... *sigh*
 
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Why not? No one has shown they are trying to protect the profession. I'd be trying to get as many tuition dollars as I could before the feds cut the GradPLUS spigot off.
 
297point1 said:
Statement made by a presenter at the AACP Annual Meeting on Tuesday afternoon:
"It's not a position I support, and it is only chatter right now, but there has been discussion that residency programs are considering charging tuition to individuals who do residencies."
[The wording might not be exact, but that was the gist of it.]

The audience, which had been engaged and lively, fell silent. The students in the room mumbled and groaned.

Has anyone else heard this? Cause that would be a game changer.
Click to expand...

PGY3 and now this ???? This BS is reaching a whole effing new level..... And the number of schools has not even hit the 200 mark yet.... F**** that !! :wtf::beat::diebanana:
 
Gombrich12 said:
Why not? No one has shown they are trying to protect the profession. I'd be trying to get as many tuition dollars as I could before the feds cut the GradPLUS spigot off.
Click to expand...

I have been saying the same about the credential inflation/school expansion BS and attacked both by pre-pharm and pharm students and pharmacists. So I hope they all hear this **** loud and clear once and for all....

Wait until they ask you to pay "application fee" to apply for residencies or jobs. AACP please contact me and I can help you with more ideas to squeeze their stupid ass*s .... LoL 🙂
 
oldstock said:
I have been saying the same about the credential inflation/school expansion BS and attacked both by pre-pharm and pharm students and pharmacists. So I hope they all hear this **** loud and clear once and for all....

Wait until they ask you to pay "application fee" to apply for residencies or jobs. AACP please contact me and I can help you with more ideas to squeeze their stupid ass*s .... LoL 🙂
Click to expand...
That already happened. I spent a couple grand on the new PHORCAS residency application program.
 
Forget the fact that you'd task an inpatient department of pharmacy in chartering an institution of higher education (hah!) The way around this is partnering with a large university who would send these "P-5's/PGY-1's" to your institution to handle all of the logistics.

Hey wait, this sounds like a backdoor way of adding a 5th year to pharmacy school (4th year for 3yr programs; 7th year for 6yr programs). What a racket!

This blows the PGY-3 idea out of the water in terms of stupidity. You know why? Just cut down your resident's salary to minimum wage if you're concerned with cost and make them staff the hell out of your pharmacy. Done. Turn your PGY-1 program into 24 months with 12 months of staffing and shave an FTE or two off your budget. Hell, make them clean the bathrooms.

Seriously?! What tool at AACP came up with this idea? There are other perfectly good ways to exploit residents should you choose to do that. Charging tuition is like the Rube Goldberg answer with all the red tape that entails.
 
confettiflyer said:
Just cut down your resident's salary to minimum wage if you're concerned with cost and make them staff the hell out of your pharmacy. Done. Turn your PGY-1 program into 24 months with 12 months of staffing and shave an FTE or two off your budget. Hell, make them clean the bathrooms.
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Stop giving them more stupid ideas! You're starting to worry me.
 
As AACP is not part of the residency accreditation process I seriously doubt that this would ever happen. This sounds like someone spreading a rumor of "discussion" that was actually an off hand comment ("The only way we could afford to have more residents right now would be to charge tuition").

The structure of a residency would have to change drastically, or people just wouldn't do them. Medical residents are paid, so why wouldn't pharmacy residents be paid. You could also think that they are already charging you tuition. Most places get more than 1 FTE worth of work out of you, so you could think they are paying you 100,000 in salary, and then charging 50-60k in tuition every year (just without the tax mess this would cause). Residencies have a least a 10-15K drop in salary before they could actually justify charging instead of paying you.

Last year at AACP there was talk of an "Alternative online residency" that would charge tuition. Really this would be more like the extended didactic education that other professions do (+30 for teachers, advance certification for nurses, etc) than it would be a residency. It offered no "experience" and would allow someone to hold a full time job at the same time. Discussed subjects were things like medication safety, regulatory compliance, and health outcomes research. These are more management than clinical subjects.
 
KidPharmD said:
Most places get more than 1 FTE worth of work out of you, so you could think they are paying you 100,000 in salary, and then charging 50-60k in tuition every year (just without the tax mess this would cause). Residencies have a least a 10-15K drop in salary before they could actually justify charging instead of paying you.
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athough I agree with your sentiment - you do not get a full FTE of work out of a resident.

1. I precept residents, my one on one time with them slows me down, lowers my productivity.
2. They are new grads, far from a full functioning pharmacist (at least in my setting) - they are still a lot slower than a veteran
3. You spend a lot of time in initial training - our hospital you have ~2-3 month training for all new hires. Right here you lose 25% of an FTE training someone who is there for only a year.
4. Ours only staff the equivalent of 1.5 days a week

all of these together - you maybe do get 40k worth of "work out of them"
 
Dred Pirate said:
athough I agree with your sentiment - you do not get a full FTE of work out of a resident.

1. I precept residents, my one on one time with them slows me down, lowers my productivity.
2. They are new grads, far from a full functioning pharmacist (at least in my setting) - they are still a lot slower than a veteran
3. You spend a lot of time in initial training - our hospital you have ~2-3 month training for all new hires. Right here you lose 25% of an FTE training someone who is there for only a year.
4. Ours only staff the equivalent of 1.5 days a week

all of these together - you maybe do get 40k worth of "work out of them"
Click to expand...


Your hospital might only get that much, but... Ours only get 1 month of staff training, and 1 month of clinical training. During they clinical training month, they become essential. Every activity that a resident does, that allows the hospital to expand service should be considered "work." They are a lot slower than a veteran, but we don't pay veterans a lot more than new grads in our field, do we? Training for an activity is also "work." You pay new hires to train, correct? Then training counts as part of an FTE for a new hire.

Even so, if you are correct, if you get 40k of work out of your residents, then charging them tuition would be a large swing as even work a residency for free (no money either way) would be the equivalent of a 40k tuition.
 
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zelman said:
That already happened. I spent a couple grand on the new PHORCAS residency application program.
Click to expand...


KidPharmD said:
PhORCAS has made residency application much easier. It is also much cheaper than PharmCAS is, so I had a hard time complaining.
Click to expand...

I only spent $200 on PharmCAS. So, these two statements don't add up.

More on topic: This was a worry for medical students a few years back. Nothing ever came of it.
 
confettiflyer said:
Seriously?! What tool at AACP came up with this idea?
Click to expand...

Never said the person who came up with it was in the hierarchy of AACP; it could be someone from ASHP who came up with the idea for all I know. The speaker did not attribute where he heard it, only that he heard it.

KidPharmD said:
As AACP is not part of the residency accreditation process I seriously doubt that this would ever happen. This sounds like someone spreading a rumor of "discussion" that was actually an off hand comment ("The only way we could afford to have more residents right now would be to charge tuition").
Click to expand...

Perhaps; time will tell. But the fact that it is even being discussed at all...
 
RxMonkey said:
I only spent $200 on PharmCAS. So, these two statements don't add up.

More on topic: This was a worry for medical students a few years back. Nothing ever came of it.
Click to expand...

To make a change, we need to get together and become a force. Not by just sitting here and swearing... Them crooks do not and will not ever work for our interests. It is all about money !!

Judging by what I am seeing here, it appears that everyone is only for themselves. So expect nothing and hope Mother Market will correct this mad trend at some points in the future. The PharmD degree mandate, PGY3 and now this ****, coupled with easy student loans with rising interests + declined pharmacy job market/opportunites, imho, are telling signs for a bubble/crisis in formation !!!! :scared::scared:
 
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oldstock said:
No hope for new grads /students indeed... Everyone's for themselves now...
Click to expand...

Not necessarily, I look out for what's best for my institution and department. I'm kind of low maintenance so as long as I can pay my bills, I'm generally okay. Plus, I have a vested interest in how my department and hospital perform.
 
297point1 said:
Never said the person who came up with it was in the hierarchy of AACP; it could be someone from ASHP who came up with the idea for all I know. The speaker did not attribute where he heard it, only that he heard it.

Perhaps; time will tell. But the fact that it is even being discussed at all...
Click to expand...

I still think it's someone's fanciful opinion...maybe they got burned running up some OT training new residents, or they got a really bad one that didn't deserve to get paid.

I think the logistics and resident control aspect will just lead to a simple lowering of salaries (or stagnate and let inflation take care of that).
 
confettiflyer said:
Not necessarily, I look out for what's best for my institution and department. I'm kind of low maintenance so as long as I can pay my bills, I'm generally okay. Plus, I have a vested interest in how my department and hospital perform.
Click to expand...

Copy that !! Your loyalty and pledge of allegiance are heard loud and clear !! 🙂
 
oldstock said:
Copy that !! Your loyalty and pledge of allegiance are heard loud and clear !! 🙂
Click to expand...

I don't see why students would expect any less!

I had to do what I had to do, no assistance whatsoever. We need to stop coddling people, just let them deal with it.
 
confettiflyer said:
I don't see why students would expect any less!

I had to do what I had to do, no assistance whatsoever. We need to stop coddling people, just let them deal with it.
Click to expand...

Excellent !! 👍👍

So i was right about everyone is out for only themselves ! 😉
 
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This is silly. Of course everyone is only looking out for themselves. Don't pretend you aren't doing the same thing. And what exactly should we be doing to protect the profession? Burn down new schools? Threaten pharmacists who agree to precept students? Give me a break. The market will correct itself (or not), not much we can do about it. Lets see how many people flock to pharmacy if any of this stuff pans out.
 
owlegrad said:
This is silly. Of course everyone is only looking out for themselves. Don't pretend you aren't doing the same thing.
Click to expand...

of course I would look out for my own interests. I would probably be doing the same or even worse if I were those crooks. But the point is, students (pre-pharm + pharm) + new grads + current working pharmacists whose interests are aligned and/or same would not stand together to protect their own interests (and/or the profession). They are not worrying for anything further than their foreheads, acting like some stupid sheep following one another to the slaughter house.... They are complaining but just letting things to continue on the way they are now... Anyway, if I were a student, I would see if I could fight this or find a way to stay away from all of this mess/bubble in the first place.


And what exactly should we be doing to protect the profession? Burn down new schools? Threaten pharmacists who agree to precept students? Give me a break. The market will correct itself (or not), not much we can do about it.
Click to expand...

If there is a will, there is a way. Ask yourself if you really want to protect yourself, fight all these stupid BS that are playing on you, or even want to protect the profession ?? Have you seen how many times America bailed out banks/economy and protected them from Mother Market (even though we all claim that we are a "free market") ?? This is a proof to show you that if you want something bad enough, you will find no excuse to act on it...

I agree that the market will correct all this madness at some points in the future. It will. And when that happens, it will be ugly and dragging everyone down, including yourself with it. Do not think anyone is immune then...


Lets see how many people flock to pharmacy if any of this stuff pans out.
Click to expand...

we already know that many and many students are young and naive and lazy and do not do enough of the needed research/DD before they enter the fields. In fact, I am there over on the prepharm forum trying to help people with the admission/application process with my knowledge and experience being already going through those things and myself seen many silly questions that many pre-pharm brought up who did not know the answers despite they are being near graduation with a degree or with a degree. They are simply not prepared themselves.

I also blame some on the culture of stressing too much on the value of education without much consideration to the costs. We pay all and everything they are asking to obtain a piece of paper/diploma to play "doctor". We pay to do that at all costs. LOL 🙂

I will try to let people I talk to know this situation and decide for themselves....
 
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In terms of purely protecting the profession, the more tables and chairs we throw behind us on our way to the fire exits, the better.

8 years of pharmacy school and some PGY-15 prerequisite working inpatient? Sure...benefits my budget and cuts the # of fresh grads cluttering my online application system.

Why not? Young people are used to getting screwed anyway. We just call it "the new normal" and deal with it/do other things.
 
confettiflyer said:
In terms of purely protecting the profession, the more tables and chairs we throw behind us on our way to the fire exits, the better.

8 years of pharmacy school and some PGY-15 prerequisite working inpatient? Sure...benefits my budget and cuts the # of fresh grads cluttering my online application system.

Why not? Young people are used to getting screwed anyway. We just call it "the new normal" and deal with it/do other things.
Click to expand...

We got it C 🙂 you are very well set/established. Kudos at you for stating the reality. Let's go and screw people up more for fun because we can. Throw some more bombs to destroy their lives. Why the hell not ?? (evil laugh) :boom::boom:
 
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297point1 said:
Statement made by a presenter at the AACP Annual Meeting on Tuesday afternoon:
"It's not a position I support, and it is only chatter right now, but there has been discussion that residency programs are considering charging tuition to individuals who do residencies."
[The wording might not be exact, but that was the gist of it.]

The audience, which had been engaged and lively, fell silent. The students in the room mumbled and groaned.

Has anyone else heard this? Cause that would be a game changer.
Click to expand...


Sounds like dentistry:

https://dentistry.usc.edu/programs/certificate/orthodontics/

http://www.dental.upenn.edu/academi...ams/orthodontic_residency_program/annual_fees
 
USC College of Pharmacy: We need you guys to fork over $75k a year to pay for your tuition and cost of living.
Students: YES! Top 10 College of Pharmacy
USC College of Pharmacy: When you graduate you will need to pay another $50k a year for 2 years to attend our select list of residency programs. Then you will be truly qualified to work as a pharmacist.
Student: I will do ANYTHING, tell me where to sign!
USC College of Pharmacy: Sign your life here, a deal for only 400K. Oh and don't forget about the interest on your loans, all of which are unsubsidized.
Student: My life is set! Thank you for this opportunity! I was worried I would have to work at starbucks for the rest of my life.
USC College of Pharmacy: Thank you. Please write us a good review. And don't forget to donate!
 
owlegrad said:
This is silly. Of course everyone is only looking out for themselves. Don't pretend you aren't doing the same thing. And what exactly should we be doing to protect the profession? Burn down new schools? Threaten pharmacists who agree to precept students? Give me a break. The market will correct itself (or not), not much we can do about it. Lets see how many people flock to pharmacy if any of this stuff pans out.
Click to expand...

Nursing is one profession that sticks up for each other. It could be done, but I don't hold out much hope that it will. Pharmacists in general, are very independent, and a bit selfish, and they've always been that was for as long as I've been a pharmacist.
 
KidPharmD said:
Your hospital might only get that much, but... Ours only get 1 month of staff training, and 1 month of clinical training. During they clinical training month, they become essential. Every activity that a resident does, that allows the hospital to expand service should be considered "work." They are a lot slower than a veteran, but we don't pay veterans a lot more than new grads in our field, do we? Training for an activity is also "work." You pay new hires to train, correct? Then training counts as part of an FTE for a new hire.

Even so, if you are correct, if you get 40k of work out of your residents, then charging them tuition would be a large swing as even work a residency for free (no money either way) would be the equivalent of a 40k tuition.
Click to expand...

1. yes we train new hires, but expect them to stay more than one year - and not turn over every year
2. Our vetran Rph's make $20 an hour more than our new hires
3. yes- charging for residency is idiotic, but I am guessing over their year, we are lucky if we get the equivalent of 0.4 FTE out of a resident- they residents may argue this, but not the 20 year veterans,
 
RxMonkey said:
I only spent $200 on PharmCAS. So, these two statements don't add up.

More on topic: This was a worry for medical students a few years back. Nothing ever came of it.
Click to expand...
From the PhORCAS website:
"The fee for using PhORCAS is $75 dollars for the first 4 designation and $25 dollars for each subsequent one."

You would have to apply to more residencies than you had time to interview for to spend a couple grand...
 
Dred Pirate said:
1. yes we train new hires, but expect them to stay more than one year - and not turn over every year
2. Our vetran Rph's make $20 an hour more than our new hires
3. yes- charging for residency is idiotic, but I am guessing over their year, we are lucky if we get the equivalent of 0.4 FTE out of a resident- they residents may argue this, but not the 20 year veterans,
Click to expand...
I would say that you aren't using your residents very efficiently (or not working them very hard).
I have heard residency directors claim that they get more than an FTE out of a single resident because they can work them more than 40 hours a week. I think I have averaged about 60 hours of work per week over the last month.
 
awval999 said:
$112000 for a one year dental residency? Are you serious? In my life.....!!!!!! Literally that was the cost of my entire undergraduate and graduate pharmacy education. Who on Earth would sign up for that?
Click to expand...

People who are rich; that's who.

BTW, when did you graduate from Pharmacy school?
 
awval999 said:
$112000 for a one year dental residency? Are you serious? In my life.....!!!!!! Literally that was the cost of my entire undergraduate and graduate pharmacy education. Who on Earth would sign up for that?
Click to expand...

Well, that is one way to keep the number of orthodontists low.
 
KidPharmD said:
From the PhORCAS website:
"The fee for using PhORCAS is $75 dollars for the first 4 designation and $25 dollars for each subsequent one."

You would have to apply to more residencies than you had time to interview for to spend a couple grand...
Click to expand...

Fair enough. It was actually 1.025K, but had I scrambled more desperately, it would have been much more.
 
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KidPharmD said:
I would say that you aren't using your residents very efficiently (or not working them very hard).
I have heard residency directors claim that they get more than an FTE out of a single resident because they can work them more than 40 hours a week. I think I have averaged about 60 hours of work per week over the last month.
Click to expand...
ours work that long - but I think you may be giving yourself to much credit - I run circles around even those that have completed a residency when it comes to the amount of work I get done. I think all of us (especially newer younger rph's) think they do more work than they do. Not saying you don't work hard, I am sure you and most residents do, but you lack the efficiency that only comes with time. I know I do probably close to twice the work I did when I started here 8 years ago
 
Dred Pirate said:
ours work that long - but I think you may be giving yourself to much credit - I run circles around even those that have completed a residency when it comes to the amount of work I get done. I think all of us (especially newer younger rph's) think they do more work than they do. Not saying you don't work hard, I am sure you and most residents do, but you lack the efficiency that only comes with time. I know I do probably close to twice the work I did when I started here 8 years ago
Click to expand...

proof that there's no need for residency !! All you need is a job then things will come with time 😉
 
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