Cheap DO vs Expensive MD

[TheyCallMePledge]

I rounded up for mcat to 32 and incorrectly rounded down for SD. *OP is Almost a full SD below. Still would place him/ her in the lower quartile of matriculant MCATs. And probably lower decile of Asians matriculant s for mcat.

oP waiting a year will not magically change OPs chances of matriculation which I stated between 50-60. Which is what OP was asking.

If waiting a year I would most likely retake the MCAT. I'm relying on extracurriculars and a major with two minors to help me stand out.


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[Ho0v-man]

Honest opinion everyone. I have read through these forums and really became aware of the situation more than before.

If I am only accepted to DO schools should I take a year off and attempt to re apply to MD. LizzyM~71 heavy extracurriculars and first author publications.


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If you got accepted to a state funded DO school in your home state you should attend if MD doesn't pan out. If you don't get in MD next year, you effectively screwed yourself out of that DO school and will have to attend a private out of state DO school that will likely be of lower quality and more expensive. Not a risk I'd be willing to take.


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[Frogger27]

If waiting a year I would most likely retake the MCAT. I'm relying on extracurriculars and a major with two minors to help me stand out.


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More positive news for you... I had a friend with a 3.9 and 29 MCAT get accepted to Toledo (if you haven't figured out, I am OH resident also)... I still think you have a good chance!

 

[libertyyne]

acceptance rates depend on the school (and the state) in question though, which is why i think he has best chances with his state schools.

funny thing is OP can improve the MCAT by exactly two points* and his aggregated national acceptance rate shoots up to 74%!

*two points in the event that the school averages multiple MCAT scores

Two points on the mcat makes all the difference.

 

[Lawpy]

Two points on the mcat makes all the difference.

actually, many adcoms here would disagree with that in regards to retaking. they only suggest retaking the MCAT if the retake is significantly higher than the first score (so >4 points).

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Honest opinion everyone. I have read through these forums and really became aware of the situation more than before.

If I am only accepted to DO schools should I take a year off and attempt to re apply to MD. LizzyM~71 heavy extracurriculars and first author publications.


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If you don't get into one of your state MD schools this cycle them just go to OU. They are your best bet with that MCAT, and it's not worth it to turn down OU and then retake. There is way too much risk going that route and OU really won't limit you.

 

[libertyyne]

actually, many adcoms here would disagree with that in regards to retaking. they only suggest retaking the MCAT if the retake is significantly higher than the first score (so >4 points).

Two points on the old scale.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Two points on the old scale.

That's still not significant enough for a retake.

 

[TheyCallMePledge]

Hey everyone thank you again for your help this has been very insightful!!


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[Lawpy]

Two points on the old scale.

That's still not significant enough for a retake.

^ but in the new scale, we're talking about going from upper end of 29 to a 30. and averaging the two becomes a 30, which results in roughly a 20% increase probability of acceptance.

this can be statistically significant, but adcoms don't view that as sufficient for a retake

 

[libertyyne]

That's still not significant enough for a retake.

508-512 = 30-32 .

 

[libertyyne]

I acknowledge that some adcoms may not see it as significant. There is no data to support that assertion besides opinion on here. AAMC does not break out the GPS grid for matriculants by retake. Just looking at the data that is available there is almost a jump from 50- 74 % in percent matriculating. This comes down to individual risk tolerance. I would trust the data more than I trust opinion. on a Peruvian flute playing forum. But that's just my opinion. Would a 506 trigger a retake? It is difficult to create meaningful change in an app during that time, but OP could look at levorne this current cycle who has had some success.

 

[Goro]

Unlike the fanciful scenarios Lawper is addicted to, there is precedent for an MD school merger, when Hanhemann and Womens' Medical Coll of PA merged in the 70s to form Drexel.

A merger would definitely need LCME inspection and approval.

 

[Lawpy]

Unlike the fanciful scenarios Lawper is addicted to, there is precedent for an MD school merger, when Hanhemann and Womens' Medical Coll of PA merged in the 70s to form Drexel.

hypotheticals help me understand the process better

I acknowledge that some adcoms may not see it as significant. There is no data to support that assertion besides opinion on here. AAMC does not break out the GPS grid for matriculants by retake. Just looking at the data that is available there is almost a jump from 50- 74 % in percent matriculating. This comes down to individual risk tolerance. I would trust the data more than I trust opinion. on a Peruvian flute playing forum. But that's just my opinion. Would a 506 trigger a retake? It is difficult to create meaningful change in an app during that time, but OP could look at levorne this current cycle who has had some success.

but the data can't be used so confidently because adcom perceptions matter in the end. and also, table a-23 shows 56% for 27-29 bin and not 29 exclusively. given that 30-32 bin shows 74%, i think there's some continuous variation in acceptance %. meaning that acceptance % for 29 and for 30 would be more similar than different

 

[mmm335]

I say go DO. In the end, MD vs DO doesn't as much. Unless you're looking into some crazy competitive fields like neurosurg or derm. Your usmle scores matter more, and you will graduate with less debt. You can take both usmle and comlex as a DO student. Take the usmle and get a 240 on it. You'll be alright. Congratulations and good luck

 

[libertyyne]

hypotheticals help me understand the process better



but the data can't be used so confidently because adcom perceptions matter in the end. and also, table a-23 shows 56% for 27-29 bin and not 29 exclusively. given that 30-32 bin shows 74%, i think there's some continuous variation in acceptance %. meaning that acceptance % for 29 and for 30 would be more similar than different

I guess what I am saying is , we can't say with certainty. It may matter for the handful of adcoms active on sdn. They may not be representative of the national adcoms. You are also discounting the psychological anchoring that people do in assessing data. A 30 may look right or much better to people compared to a 29 even if the confidence interval bands overlap. There is a somewhat drastic difference between the 27_29 bin and the 30-32 bin. Why would a 27 be looked at much differntly then a 29 then for that matter?
Plus in the context of this applicant if everything else is right, this is really the only limiting factor.

 

[Slack3r]

I say go DO. In the end, MD vs DO doesn't as much. Unless you're looking into some crazy competitive fields like neurosurg or derm. Your usmle scores matter more, and you will graduate with less debt. You can take both usmle and comlex as a DO student. Take the usmle and get a 240 on it. You'll be alright. Congratulations and good luck

Don't listen to this person.

 

[StephenCurry1]

n=1, went from a 30 mcat to a 512 (2 point increase) and have gotten 5 interviews this cycle while I only had 1 interview last cycle. International btw

 

[Goro]

That's no mean feat!

n=1, went from a 30 mcat to a 512 (2 point increase) and have gotten 5 interviews this cycle while I only had 1 interview last cycle. International btw

 

[Lawpy]

I guess what I am saying is , we can't say with certainty. It may matter for the handful of adcoms active on sdn. They may not be representative of the national adcoms. You are also discounting the psychological anchoring that people do in assessing data. A 30 may look right or much better to people compared to a 29 even if the confidence interval bands overlap. There is a somewhat drastic difference between the 27_29 bin and the 30-32 bin. Why would a 27 be looked at much differntly then a 29 then for that matter?
Plus in the context of this applicant if everything else is right, this is really the only limiting factor.

Sure but i'd bet adcoms nationally can assess actual significance pretty well. A 1-point increase by itself doesn't mean much, but as you point out, the psychological perception of round numbers may make the difference concrete between a 29 and 30. This, however, contradicts SDN wisdom but I guess reality may be different from SDN despite having input from 6+ adcom members (out of thousands nationwide)

A 27 is worse than 29 because a 27 is closer to the national average of 25, while 29 is closer to national matriculant average of 31.

n=1, went from a 30 mcat to a 512 (2 point increase) and have gotten 5 interviews this cycle while I only had 1 interview last cycle. International btw

You may have improved a subpar subsection score in the 2nd attempt

I say go DO. In the end, MD vs DO doesn't as much. Unless you're looking into some crazy competitive fields like neurosurg or derm. Your usmle scores matter more, and you will graduate with less debt. You can take both usmle and comlex as a DO student. Take the usmle and get a 240 on it. You'll be alright. Congratulations and good luck

Don't listen to this person.

Well if the USMLE scores matter more, it goes to show COMLEX scores are useless and an unnecessary pain to study for with not much benefit in the end

 

[Psai]

I say go DO. In the end, MD vs DO doesn't as much. Unless you're looking into some crazy competitive fields like neurosurg or derm. Your usmle scores matter more, and you will graduate with less debt. You can take both usmle and comlex as a DO student. Take the usmle and get a 240 on it. You'll be alright. Congratulations and good luck

rofl premeds talking about step scores as if scoring high is easy. Yeah the guy that ended up in a DO school is going to score above the average just like that.

Step 1 studying was one of the most miserable periods of my life. All day every day just sat there and studied for step 1 for weeks. Can't explain it if you haven't been through it.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

rofl premeds talking about step scores as if scoring high is easy. Yeah the guy that ended up in a DO school is going to score above the average just like that.

Step 1 studying was one of the most miserable periods of my life. All day every day just sat there and studied for step 1 for weeks. Can't explain it if you haven't been through it.

I raise my glass to you fellow survivor

 

[ChiDO]

rofl premeds talking about step scores as if scoring high is easy. Yeah the guy that ended up in a DO school is going to score above the average just like that.

Step 1 studying was one of the most miserable periods of my life. All day every day just sat there and studied for step 1 for weeks. Can't explain it if you haven't been through it.

Second this statement. Studying for USMLE sucked. Although, chances are if you study well, you'll get the same score independent of what school you go to.

 

[Psai]

Second this statement. Studying for USMLE sucked. Although, chances are if you study well, you'll get the same score independent of what school you go to.

For sure, there are a huge range of scores at every school and a lot of it is individual effort. I'm just saying that it's wise to manage your expectations. People that haven't done well on tests shouldn't expect that they will suddenly turn into some sort of step 1 rainman.

 

[Psai]

You are probably brilliant but the level of condescension that oozes from almost every post you have especially on the DO vs MD subject is ridiculous. Can't you ever make your point without ridiculing other people's choices? Get all the way over yourself.

Cool starry bra

 

[mmm335]

rofl premeds talking about step scores as if scoring high is easy. Yeah the guy that ended up in a DO school is going to score above the average just like that.

Step 1 studying was one of the most miserable periods of my life. All day every day just sat there and studied for step 1 for weeks. Can't explain it if you haven't been through it.

I'm not a premed, I didn't even know what the usmle was when I was a premed. I've been through step 1 myself, so I know how much it sucks and how much work you need to put through for it. I know how frustrating it is to review topics over and over again and still manage to get stumped on UW questions. But it's definitely possible for anyone to score a 230, or higher, if you've been diligent throughout your basic sciences and put in the effort in during your dedicated study period. Btw congrats on successfully completing your step 1 and congratulations on moving onto the next phase in your career. I was simply suggesting to the OP what score he should keep in mind when studying for the boards... and that there is more than 1 pathway available for him to reach his goals.

And don't talk down on DO students... just because they went DO doesn't mean they aren't as "smart" as MD students or whatever. This just feeds into the DO stigma, and honestly there shouldn't even be any stigma against them. I know plenty of DO students who took both the usmle and comlex and did well. My best friend who's a DO senior pulled a 260 on step 1... and this is from someone who told me they got a 30 on their MCAT... it wasn't anything spectacular like a 41 or something. He worked his butt off for his score and it paid off. I'm getting too off topic here now, but he was always an intelligent dude.

And to the other comment that I couldn't quote on my tapatalk app, I'm not saying usmle scores matter more than comlex scores or that comlex scores don't matter. Honestly I don't know how it works for DO students because I am an MD student myself but from what I understand, if DO students want to apply to MD residencies, then they could take the usmle. But I would think that DO students need to their their own boards in order to graduate.

On a side note, DO matriculation gpa and mcat scores are getting more competitive, and step 1 scores are getting more and more competitive as well.

 

[gyngyn]

Goro is literally bellowing out loud with laughter.

OK, can you appease my curiosity and let us know what would happen to the students if, say, USC/Keck went belly-up?

No school is obligated to accept transfer students.
USC is the largest MD school in CA. The odds that 800 students could find an adoptive school within a year is vanishingly small.

 

[BSlugs2017]

So I'm kind of confused here. Would it be accurate to say that going to Northstate (or any for-profit MD) is better than going to a DO school from the perspective of a med school applicant? According to one faculty in this thread, worst case scenario is that the school goes under and students will transfer to other medical schools?

Reason why I'm asking is that I'll be applying to schools next year (MD and DO) and am worried about this exact scenario (1 MD acceptance vs cheaper/multiple DO acceptances). Also would love to stay in-state.

From my limited perspective it seems the pros and cons are as followed:

Pros:
-US MD in California
-No anti-DO bias
-NBME exams
-Seems to have good rotation sites like Kaiser and Sutter (don't know any details beyond this)
-Independent learners should do well on step 1 regardless of quality of lecturers if they have good resources

Cons:
-Very expensive with no federal loans yet
-New school
-Small chance of going under (but enrolled students will be taken care of by aamc?)

It seems that most of the criticisms seem to be about the for-profit status which may not be great for medical schools as a whole, but have less of a detrimental effect on the individual students applying and hoping to match into good residencies. Can with more knowledge than me speak more to this issue of why picking CNU (or any for-profit school) would be worse than non-profit DO? I am fortunate enough to be graduating from college debt-free and my parents will help me pay for medical school if need be, so I just can't see why not apply to northstate.

 

[BSlugs2017]

Can anyone provide insight to my above post given what has been discussed in this thread? From a medical school applicant's perspective, is it worth it to go to a for-profit MD over a DO school? It seems, according to faculty members in this thread, that if the school goes under, the students will simply be transferred to other schools.

Can any faculty members or current medical students chime in? Specifically can this be addressed from the prospective student's perspective and not regarding what's good for medical education as a whole (if that would make a difference)?

 

[Med Ed]

Can anyone provide insight to my above post given what has been discussed in this thread? From a medical school applicant's perspective, is it worth it to go to a for-profit MD over a DO school? It seems, according to faculty members in this thread, that if the school goes under, the students will simply be transferred to other schools.

Can any faculty members or current medical students chime in? Specifically can this be addressed from the prospective student's perspective and not regarding what's good for medical education as a whole (if that would make a difference)?

Let me put it this way: attending a for-profit medical school will be a stain on your CV that does not wash off.

 

[BSlugs2017]

Let me put it this way: attending a for-profit medical school will be a stain on your CV that does not wash off.

Does where you go to medical school matter after you match into your residency? I always thought that residency was the key to getting a good job in medicine.

Are program directors across the country as up to date on the newest medical schools as faculty on this message board are? Is there a chance that there are some or many program directors who won't even know if a school is for-profit or not?

How does the stain of going to a for-profit school compare to the stain of going to a DO school? For the purposes of matching into allopathic residencies, which is worse?

I get why for-profit education is considered a bad thing, but it is very difficult for me to see the "brand" of a US MD school as being less valuable than the "brand" of being a DO for the purposes of career advancement of potential students. Then again, I don't really know much about the process at all besides what my school's premed department tells me and hearsay from some of my peers who are currently in medical school.

 

[Lawpy]

Does where you go to medical school matter after you match into your residency? I always thought that residency was the key to getting a good job in medicine.

To land a good job in medicine, training at a good residency is ideal. To get a good residency spots, attending a good medical school is ideal (on top of doing well).

Are program directors across the country as up to date on the newest medical schools as faculty on this message board are? Is there a chance that there are some or many program directors who won't even know if a school is for-profit or not?

Pretty sure program directors are very well aware what the new schools are. And there is only one for-profit US MD school (that looks like a major avoidable disaster).

How does the stain of going to a for-profit school compare to the stain of going to a DO school? For the purposes of matching into allopathic residencies, which is worse?

Some say all US MD (including for-profit) > all US DO, simply because MD inherently is better than DO. But CNU is the only for-profit US MD school that seems likely to collapse in the future, so it's hard to make a comparison. We don't know how CNU matches their students, so it is impossible to predict residency placement.

I get why for-profit education is considered a bad thing, but it is very difficult for me to see the "brand" of a US MD school as being less valuable than the "brand" of being a DO for the purposes of career advancement of potential students. Then again, I don't really know much about the process at all besides what my school's premed department tells me and hearsay from some of my peers who are currently in medical school.

Read older threads on these forums to be informed on the matter.

 

[BSlugs2017]

Pretty sure program directors are very well aware what the new schools are. And there is only one for-profit US MD school (that looks like a major avoidable disaster).

That's exactly my point. Because there is only 1 for-profit MD school and it is new, wouldn't it be likely that program directors to just assume it's non-profit? When a new school gets approved, does LCME send a notification to all program directors and indicate profit status in an obvious manner? How does this kind of information get diffused to program directors?

Some say all US MD (including for-profit) > all US DO, simply because MD inherently is better than DO. But CNU is the only for-profit US MD school that seems likely to collapse in the future, so it's hard to make a comparison. We don't know how CNU matches their students, so it is impossible to predict residency placement.

Wouldn't step 1 scores also be a confounding variable in the comparison? CNU students are likely to do better on their standardized exams than DO students, given that their inaugural class MCAT score was above the average allopathic matriculant MCAT score (thanks, California). This is why my gut instinct is that the MD brand is the most important factor in deciding between this school and DO schools, if my assumption is correct that CNU students will do well on the boards based on their MCAT scores.

What specifically would you say makes it likely to collapse in the future? I've been keeping tabs on this school since I'd like to stay in state for medical school and all the other CA medical schools are difficult to get into and I've never heard of any concrete examples of CNU running into accreditation troubles. Last year LCME expanded the class size, why would that happen if they're in trouble?

Also, wouldn't a collapse be beneficial to the students enrolled anyway? According to Med Ed, the students would be transferred to other medical schools. It could provide a back door into other medical schools in California that are otherwise difficult to gain admission to. (Not being facetious here, just following the line of logic based on what I've learned from this thread).

 

[navigator]

CNU students are likely to do better on their standardized exams than DO students, given that their inaugural class MCAT score was above the average allopathic matriculant MCAT score (thanks, California).

You do realize that the MCAT and Step 1 are completely different exams, yeah? There are people at my school who scored in the upper 250 (one who scored a 268) and not all of them had great MCATs.

The most important factor here would be curriculum. Take Texas Tech-El Paso, for example, which typically admits students in our state with GPA/MCAT scores lower than at any other med school in Texas. They're still able to successfully train their students, who go on to score Step 1 scores similar to their colleagues at UTSW and Baylor (high 230s-low 240s)

TCOM's average last year was 228, which is pretty much how well students at TAMHSC and Tech-Lubbock fared. Again, it's all about the curriculum prep.

 

[BSlugs2017]

You do realize that the MCAT and Step 1 are completely different exams, yeah? There are people at my school who scored in the upper 250 (one who scored a 268) and not all of them had great MCATs.

The most important factor here would be curriculum. Take Texas Tech-El Paso, for example, which typically admits students in our state with GPA/MCAT scores lower than at any other med school in Texas. They're still able to successfully train their students, who go on to score Step 1 scores similar to their colleagues at UTSW and Baylor (high 230s-low 240s)

TCOM's average last year was 228, which is pretty much how well students at TAMHSC and Tech-Lubbock fared. Again, it's all about the curriculum prep.

For sure, there are plenty of people that score well on USMLE step 1 from DO schools but there is also a lot of self-selection involved in who actually takes the test since it's not required at DO programs. Also, my comment was regarding aggregates, not individuals. MCAT correlates with step 1 so, on aggregate, one could reasonably expect a class with an average MCAT of 32 (CNU) to do better than a class with an average MCAT of 27 (average DO schools).

I would also disagree with your statement that curriculum is of paramount importance to preparing for the board examinations, I would say that individual preparation for the exam is way more important to doing well on USMLE. As an aside, mandatory attendance is becoming less and less common and average performance on the boards has only been increasing. Seems like a hard sell to say that increase in performance on the boards is due to improvements to curriculum nationwide rather than increasing competitiveness of medical school admissions.

Anyway, that part of my post wasn't really something I have strong opinions on. I'm more interested in hearing from faculty members here about why they think CNU will collapse and the relative merits of attending CNU vs DO school based purely on career prospects rather than on the effect of for profit education on medical education.

 

[Goro]

CN"U" put its financial interests ahead of the needs of its students. It could have applied to be able to allow students to get Federal loans, but chose not to. This is very telling.

It seems that most of the criticisms seem to be about the for-profit status which may not be great for medical schools as a whole, but have less of a detrimental effect on the individual students applying and hoping to match into good residencies. Can with more knowledge than me speak more to this issue of why picking CNU (or any for-profit school) would be worse than non-profit DO? I am fortunate enough to be graduating from college debt-free and my parents will help me pay for medical school if need be, so I just can't see why not apply to northstate.

 

[Goro]

When you get to a 27 MCAT score, students perform just as well on Boards as do 32. It's the cohort < 26 that are the problem children.

Concerning the underlined, CN'U" has got onto LCME's radar in a bad way. It's never a good idea to piss off accreditors.

For sure, there are plenty of people that score well on USMLE step 1 from DO schools but there is also a lot of self-selection involved in who actually takes the test since it's not required at DO programs. Also, my comment was regarding aggregates, not individuals. MCAT correlates with step 1 so, on aggregate, one could reasonably expect a class with an average MCAT of 32 (CNU) to do better than a class with an average MCAT of 27 (average DO schools).

I would also disagree with your statement that curriculum is of paramount importance to preparing for the board examinations, I would say that individual preparation for the exam is way more important to doing well on USMLE. As an aside, mandatory attendance is becoming less and less common and average performance on the boards has only been increasing. Seems like a hard sell to say that increase in performance on the boards is due to improvements to curriculum nationwide rather than increasing competitiveness of medical school admissions.

Anyway, that part of my post wasn't really something I have strong opinions on. I'm more interested in hearing from faculty members here about why they think CNU will collapse and the relative merits of attending CNU vs DO school based purely on career prospects rather than on the effect of for profit education on medical education.

 

[Lawpy]

I'm more interested in hearing from faculty members here about why they think CNU will collapse and the relative merits of attending CNU vs DO school based purely on career prospects rather than on the effect of for profit education on medical education.

The best approach is to view that CNU doesn't exist and apply like you normally would. I'd even suggest sticking with established and reputed DO schools like Touro-CA and Western over CNU if you are so desperate to remain in stare. CNU was frankly a mistake on LCME's part.

Understand one thing: many strong CA applicants with rockstar stats and ECs end up leaving the state for medical school. Granted, this could also be due to personal choice and cost/benefit analysis, but it's wise to not fixate yourself to one state.

That's exactly my point. Because there is only 1 for-profit MD school and it is new, wouldn't it be likely that program directors to just assume it's non-profit? When a new school gets approved, does LCME send a notification to all program directors and indicate profit status in an obvious manner? How does this kind of information get diffused to program directors?

Program directors know CNU is the only for-profit MD school with questionable reputations. Part of their job is to be well versed with ACGME/LCME accreditation. This information can be accessed online on the LCME website.

But i don't know why you care what program directors think when you haven't even applied to med school yet.

Wouldn't step 1 scores also be a confounding variable in the comparison? CNU students are likely to do better on their standardized exams than DO students, given that their inaugural class MCAT score was above the average allopathic matriculant MCAT score (thanks, California). This is why my gut instinct is that the MD brand is the most important factor in deciding between this school and DO schools, if my assumption is correct that CNU students will do well on the boards based on their MCAT scores.

Step 1 performance depends on the student, not what school they attend. And Step 1 tests very different things from the MCAT.

What specifically would you say makes it likely to collapse in the future? I've been keeping tabs on this school since I'd like to stay in state for medical school and all the other CA medical schools are difficult to get into and I've never heard of any concrete examples of CNU running into accreditation troubles. Last year LCME expanded the class size, why would that happen if they're in trouble?

Also, wouldn't a collapse be beneficial to the students enrolled anyway? According to Med Ed, the students would be transferred to other medical schools. It could provide a back door into other medical schools in California that are otherwise difficult to gain admission to. (Not being facetious here, just following the line of logic based on what I've learned from this thread).

Read the posts by @Med Ed and @gyngyn regarding CNU's financial problems and possibility of collapse in the future. I personally view CNU as an avoidable mess that should never have existed in the first place. Hopefully, LCME learned their lessons and will intensify their crackdown on malicious new schools while trying to drive CNU out of existence.

 

[BSlugs2017]

CN"U" put its financial interests ahead of the needs of its students. It could have applied to be able to allow students to get Federal loans, but chose not to. This is very telling.

I agree this is a concern to prospective students who would need federal loans to attend, less of a concern for students with the financial means to attend without federal loans. Currently enrolled students went in knowing of the lack of federal loans so I don't think they would be counting on them since they never existed at the school in the first place. I agree that it is concerning, I don't see this as a reason for a student of financial means to go DO over MD unless there are additional details that I am missing to this story.

When you get to a 27 MCAT score, students perform just as well on Boards as do 32. It's the cohort < 26 that are the problem children.

When you say "perform just as well", do you mean pass at the same or similar rates or achieve similar/same scores? This is a difference worth delineating because passing and doing well have different implications for career prospects.

Also, if the average MCAT for DO schools is a 27 wouldn't that mean there is a sizable number of students attending osteopathic medical schools with MCAT scores below 26? I understand that many DO schools have higher averages than this (Tuoro-CA, for example), but on aggregate across DO schools wouldn't this be the case?

 

[BSlugs2017]

Program directors know CNU is the only for-profit MD school with questionable reputations. Part of their job is to be well versed with ACGME/LCME accreditation. This information can be accessed online on the LCME website.

But i don't know why you care what program directors think when you haven't even applied to med school yet.

I guess I can't shake the feeling that program directors would be mostly concerned with issues pertaining to their own programs and GME rather than the tax status of new medical schools, except for maybe program directors and faculty at UC Davis because of the proximity. If CNU became notorious and made national news, then maybe I would be more inclined to believe this but so far its seems to be pretty under the radar at least outside of SDN and I don't think many program directors lurk on SDN. In all of my other sources of med school news (pre-med office, AAMC website), it has seemed less controversial.

How many program directors would know that Creighton medical school is religiously affiliated? I would guess there is a good chunk that do not.

Read the posts by @Med Ed and @gyngyn regarding CNU's financial problems and possibility of collapse in the future. I personally view CNU as an avoidable mess that should never have existed in the first place. Hopefully, LCME learned their lessons and will intensify their crackdown on malicious new schools while trying to drive CNU out of existence.

Regarding financial problems and possibility of collapse, the only concrete facts I have read from lurking SDN has been the denial of federal loans. I did a little bit of digging into this and found out that this decision was made by CNU in the fall of 2015, while LCME expanded their class size in spring of 2016. The timeline of these two events does not seem to indicate that CNU is in accreditation trouble, unless I am missing some facts. I have heard lots of speculation, but from the facts I know, this doesn't seem to be the case. If there are any facts to point to accreditation trouble, I haven't read anything but would like to know about them before applying here.

When you refer to a crackdown on malicious schools, are you referring to the increased number of medical schools being placed on probation (Baylor, TCMC in recent years)? Has CNU been placed on probation?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Currently enrolled students went in knowing of the lack of federal loans so I don't think they would be counting on them

Actually most students go to new schools with the hope of getting federal loans after 2 years. Denying them this was a slap in the face.

When you say "perform just as well", do you mean pass at the same or similar rates or achieve similar/same scores

Both.

I guess I can't shake the feeling that program directors would be mostly concerned with issues pertaining to their own programs

I guarantee you they know. Medicine is a small field and knowledge like this travels fast. From the doctors down to the nurses and techs medicine is the most gossipy field I have ever seen.

pre-med office

Ah yes the great fountain of infallible information.

How many program directors would know that Creighton medical school is religiously affiliated

I guarantee you almost all of them know this.

 

[Goro]

The point is that this school chose $ over the needs of their students, and now how the students currently get their tuition.


Concerning MCAT vs Boards, the MCAT is a weak predictor, but the only thing from pre-med schools that has any predictive value. And yes, there are a lot of DO students with scores < 25. I don't have the data handy but I recall that recently DO students seem to do as well on USMLE as their MD peers.

I agree this is a concern to prospective students who would need federal loans to attend, less of a concern for students with the financial means to attend without federal loans. Currently enrolled students went in knowing of the lack of federal loans so I don't think they would be counting on them since they never existed at the school in the first place. I agree that it is concerning, I don't see this as a reason for a student of financial means to go DO over MD unless there are additional details that I am missing to this story.



When you say "perform just as well", do you mean pass at the same or similar rates or achieve similar/same scores? This is a difference worth delineating because passing and doing well have different implications for career prospects.

Also, if the average MCAT for DO schools is a 27 wouldn't that mean there is a sizable number of students attending osteopathic medical schools with MCAT scores below 26? I understand that many DO schools have higher averages than this (Tuoro-CA, for example), but on aggregate across DO schools wouldn't this be the case?

 

[navigator]

Also, if the average MCAT for DO schools is a 27 wouldn't that mean there is a sizable number of students attending osteopathic medical schools with MCAT scores below 26?

Good point, yeah that's probably an issue

 

[gyngyn]

There is no obligation to accept the transfer of students of failed medical schools.

 

[Med Ed]

I guess I can't shake the feeling that program directors would be mostly concerned with issues pertaining to their own programs and GME rather than the tax status of new medical schools,

Everyone in the business knows CNU. Just like everyone knows SGU, Ross, and AUC.

Has CNU been placed on probation?

No. To my knowledge they have not yet had their LCME site visit for provisional accreditation. No school is obligated to publicly report accreditation issues that fall below the level of probation.

 

[BSlugs2017]

There is no obligation to accept the transfer of students of failed medical schools.

This contradicts what Med Ed has said earlier:

Other schools would accommodate. Period.

So which is correct? And even if there is no obligation per se, in practice wouldn't it be likely for the LCME to incentivize other schools to take the students/ other schools take them because it would be humane? Not to mention that the students would probably have a good legal case against LCME for negligence? In practice wouldn't fear of litigation/ compassion work in the students interest regardless of what happens to CNU? After all, it is LCME's job to make sure that the schools they accredit are up to snuff, I'm definitely not qualified to do that and neither are CNU's enrolled students or prospective future students.

Given that CNU students in the worst case scenario (shut down) will be taken care of and sent to other medical schools, how is it not more beneficial to attend CNU over a DO school in terms of career prospects?

No. To my knowledge they have not yet had their LCME site visit for provisional accreditation. No school is obligated to publicly report accreditation issues that fall below the level of probation.

So if established schools like Baylor and a new non-profit school like Commonwealth medical college have had more severe accreditation issues than CNU which, to my knowledge, is not on probation, why is CNU a risky choice over accreditation? What exactly are the accreditation issues it is facing and why would LCME increase its class size within a year of opening if they are having issues?

 

[BSlugs2017]

The point is that this school chose $ over the needs of their students, and now how the students currently get their tuition.

I agree that if the decision to deny student loans is concerning, especially to students who do not have the means to attend otherwise. However, in terms of career prospects it seems like it would hardly matter to the students applying to and deciding to enroll at CNU if they ultimately graduate with a US MD and match well. Personally, I don't really care too much if administrators and professors are making lots of money from the school as long as there are good rotation sites to learn clinical medicine and I can match well. It's tuition is comparable to many private schools and less than out of state tuition at lots of public schools (Illinois, for example I think is over 70K).

For students with the means to attend, the loan decision doesn't seem like it would really harm their career prospects in the way that anti-DO bias would when it comes to the match.

Concerning MCAT vs Boards, the MCAT is a weak predictor, but the only thing from pre-med schools that has any predictive value. And yes, there are a lot of DO students with scores < 25. I don't have the data handy but I recall that recently DO students seem to do as well on USMLE as their MD peers.

Wouldn't the fact that USMLE is not mandatory for DO students be a confounding variable in the data you saw? Seems like there would be self-selection involved where only the top DO students took USMLE? If that were the case, then the only conclusion that could be drawn is that the very best DO students scored as well as the average MD students.

If you do happen to find that data, I'd be interested to see it. Step 1 data is way harder to find per school and between MD/DO programs than MCAT data is. Would be interesting to see the differences, especially with the recent expansion in MD and DO schools and the merger coming up.

 

[sparklingwater]

Concerning MCAT vs Boards, the MCAT is a weak predictor, but the only thing from pre-med schools that has any predictive value. And yes, there are a lot of DO students with scores < 25. I don't have the data handy but I recall that recently DO students seem to do as well on USMLE as their MD peers.

According to many recent studies, the average DO USMLE score is ~210-215, whereas the average MD USMLE score is ~230. That is a pretty stark difference (almost 1 SD), especially considering that (expectedly) students at the lower end of the DO class are less likely to take both the COMPLEX and USMLE.

 

[Med Ed]

This contradicts what Med Ed has said earlier:

No, it doesn't. As you note, no individual school is obligated to accept students from a failed enterprise, but the LCME can bring considerable influence to bear in finding placements. It happened with San Juan Bautista, it happened with Oral Roberts, it will happen the next time an institution tanks.

why is CNU a risky choice over accreditation? What exactly are the accreditation issues it is facing and why would LCME increase its class size within a year of opening if they are having issues?

New schools increase their class sizes because they need money to sustain their financial models. There really isn't a compelling interest for the LCME to stop them during pre-clinical operations, assuming they have enough classroom space to accommodate.

The problem that a lot of folks in medical school administration foresee at CNU does, in fact, come down to money. In general, osteopathic schools use a model of large class sizes coupled with small teaching faculties in order to stay solvent. You can't really do that in the allopathic world nowadays. The LCME expects educational methods that are resource intensive, both in clinical and pre-clinical settings, and for schools to have or develop revenue streams other than tuition. I just checked and CNU landed exactly one NIH award in 2016, netting a whopping $122K in indirect costs. Unless that changes, or they get some serious philanthropy, or they start a profitable clinical operation, it's going to be really, really difficult for them to keep their doors open without charging tuition that is astronomical (even by modern standards). Word on the street is that Roseman went down because it wanted to use a CNU-like model and the LCME said "fool us once..."

 

[Goro]

The vast majority of DO students take the USMLE.

Wouldn't the fact that USMLE is not mandatory for DO students be a confounding variable in the data you saw? Seems like there would be self-selection involved where only the top DO students took USMLE? If that were the case, then the only conclusion that could be drawn is that the very best DO students scored as well as the average MD students.

If you do happen to find that data, I'd be interested to see it. Step 1 data is way harder to find per school and between MD/DO programs than MCAT data is. Would be interesting to see the differences, especially with the recent expansion in MD and DO schools and the merger coming up.