Cheap DO vs Expensive MD

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No, it doesn't. As you note, no individual school is obligated to accept students from a failed enterprise, but the LCME can bring considerable influence to bear in finding placements. It happened with San Juan Bautista, it happened with Oral Roberts, it will happen the next time an institution tanks.

So my takeaway from this is that regardless of CNU's accreditation, in all practicality, once a student is enrolled they will come out with a US MD from either CNU or another medical school. Is this correct?

From any thread I've read on CNU, I still am not convinced that it is agains an individual student's interest to attend. I've read lots of speculation and doom and gloom and compelling reasons why it is bad for medical education as a whole but very little specific facts that would make me consider DO over CNU based on my interests to graduate with an US allopathic medical degree and match successfully.

New schools increase their class sizes because they need money to sustain their financial models. There really isn't a compelling interest for the LCME to stop them during pre-clinical operations, assuming they have enough classroom space to accommodate.

If LCME believed that CNU is destined to fail, why would they expand class size and expose more students to what is, in their view, a substandard education? I get this will cover some of CNU's losses, but why prop up a sinking ship and screw over students if the unspecific negative claims against CNU made on SDN are true? What does LCME have to gain from this?

The problem that a lot of folks in medical school administration foresee at CNU does, in fact, come down to money. In general, osteopathic schools use a model of large class sizes coupled with small teaching faculties in order to stay solvent. You can't really do that in the allopathic world nowadays. The LCME expects educational methods that are resource intensive, both in clinical and pre-clinical settings, and for schools to have or develop revenue streams other than tuition. I just checked and CNU landed exactly one NIH award in 2016, netting a whopping $122K in indirect costs. Unless that changes, or they get some serious philanthropy, or they start a profitable clinical operation, it's going to be really, really difficult for them to keep their doors open without charging tuition that is astronomical (even by modern standards). Word on the street is that Roseman went down because it wanted to use a CNU-like model and the LCME said "fool us once..."

Wouldn't CNU be able to have investors to fund its operation since it is a for-profit institution? Do you foresee probation in the near future for CNU?

Does LCME release public statements regarding why prospective medical schools like Roseman get denied accreditation spelling out the reason you've mentioned or is your information coming from more informal sources?

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Both gyngyn and Med Ed's opinion's differ here. Thus, I interpret this as being that there will be no guarantee that CNU students would be able to go elsewhere if they go belly up. In addition, they have yet to get students into their clinical years, much less graduate a class.

So my takeaway from this is that regardless of CNU's accreditation, in all practicality, once a student is enrolled they will come out with a US MD from either CNU or another medical school. Is this correct?

Do you not get that CNU puts it's financial interest ahead of their students????

From any thread I've read on CNU, I still am not convinced that it is agains an individual student's interest to attend. I've read lots of speculation and doom and gloom and compelling reasons why it is bad for medical education as a whole but very little specific facts that would make me consider DO over CNU based on my interests to graduate with an US allopathic medical degree and match successfully.

They were afraid of CNU's lawyers.

If LCME believed that CNU is destined to fail, why would they expand class size and expose more students to what is, in their view, a substandard education? I get this will cover some of CNU's losses, but why prop up a sinking ship and screw over students if the unspecific negative claims against CNU made on SDN are true? What does LCME have to gain from this?

Well, yeah. That's the idea of for profit institutions.
Wouldn't CNU be able to have investors to fund its operation since it is a for-profit institution?

I believe that they are on LC<E's radar, and not in a good way. Interpret that as you will. Med Ed has made a compelling observation as to their financial future.
Do you foresee probation in the near future for CNU?

Not as far as I'm aware, but my wise clinician colleagues may have better info.
Does LCME release public statements regarding why prospective medical schools like Roseman get denied accreditation spelling out the reason you've mentioned
 
So my takeaway from this is that regardless of CNU's accreditation, in all practicality, once a student is enrolled they will come out with a US MD from either CNU or another medical school. Is this correct?

From any thread I've read on CNU, I still am not convinced that it is agains an individual student's interest to attend. I've read lots of speculation and doom and gloom and compelling reasons why it is bad for medical education as a whole but very little specific facts that would make me consider DO over CNU based on my interests to graduate with an US allopathic medical degree and match successfully.

Will CNU students match? Sure, but it is interesting that if one mentions the word "Northstate" within earshot of program directors they typically make involuntary gagging gestures.

BSlugs2017 said:
If LCME believed that CNU is destined to fail, why would they expand class size and expose more students to what is, in their view, a substandard education? I get this will cover some of CNU's losses, but why prop up a sinking ship and screw over students if the unspecific negative claims against CNU made on SDN are true? What does LCME have to gain from this?

The LCME writes and enforces a set of standards that it considers reasonable. It did not feel that it could legally defend itself if it denied accreditation to a for-profit institution that fulfilled the standards for preliminary accreditation. So CNU got accredited (after a rather prolonged series of false starts with Suskind at the helm). The only option the LCME had was to treat CNU like every other new allopathic school. Ditto for the class size increase, which does not require a new site visit or comprehensive re-examination of every nook and cranny of the school. CNU planned on the class size increase, built it into the preliminary accreditation plans, and could mount a legally defensible argument to win it.

The big unknown in all this is what will happen when the LCME returns for the provisional accreditation site visit with revised standards that are stricter, and does the full cavity search of their program. That's what people are waiting to see.

BSlugs2017 said:
Wouldn't CNU be able to have investors to fund its operation since it is a for-profit institution?

Investors aren't philanthropists. They want their money back. With interest.

BSlugs2017 said:
Do you foresee probation in the near future for CNU?

I haven't seen their books, nor do I sit in on the LCME meetings, so neither myself nor anyone else can say for certain what the future will bring. All I can say is caveat emptor.

BSlugs2017 said:
Does LCME release public statements regarding why prospective medical schools like Roseman get denied accreditation spelling out the reason you've mentioned or is your information coming from more informal sources?

The LCME does not publish anything. Sometimes you can infer what went wrong based on public admissions by the school. Mostly you just know someone who knows someone who knows.
 
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Wouldn't CNU be able to have investors to fund its operation since it is a for-profit institution?

P.S. Six years ago the idea a private, for-profit, investor-funded medical school was floated in Palm Beach County, Florida. They were positing a starting class size of 100 with tuition of $50,700, so right out of the gate they were anticipating beginning annual tuition revenue of $5.07 million per class to make it work, which is more than Northstate has gotten.

The project died on the vine. A cautionary tale?
 
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So my takeaway from this is that regardless of CNU's accreditation, in all practicality, once a student is enrolled they will come out with a US MD from either CNU or another medical school. Is this correct?

From any thread I've read on CNU, I still am not convinced that it is agains an individual student's interest to attend. I've read lots of speculation and doom and gloom and compelling reasons why it is bad for medical education as a whole but very little specific facts that would make me consider DO over CNU based on my interests to graduate with an US allopathic medical degree and match successfully.



If LCME believed that CNU is destined to fail, why would they expand class size and expose more students to what is, in their view, a substandard education? I get this will cover some of CNU's losses, but why prop up a sinking ship and screw over students if the unspecific negative claims against CNU made on SDN are true? What does LCME have to gain from this?



Wouldn't CNU be able to have investors to fund its operation since it is a for-profit institution? Do you foresee probation in the near future for CNU?

Does LCME release public statements regarding why prospective medical schools like Roseman get denied accreditation spelling out the reason you've mentioned or is your information coming from more informal sources?
Help me understand this. Why are you so fixated on CNU? Is it because you see a new CA school and want to remain in-state no matter what?

Because I bet that many strong, rockstar Cali applicants that also want to remain in-state end up moving OOS for med school anyways. CA has low IS matriculation % for a reason, since it is a very competitive state with strong applicant pool.

I'd personally apply to Western and Touro-CA over malicious for-profit schools like CNU that don't care about their students and education, and are only in it to make a nice profit out of their tuition.
 
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Both gyngyn and Med Ed's opinion's differ here. Thus, I interpret this as being that there will be no guarantee that CNU students would be able to go elsewhere if they go belly up. In addition, they have yet to get students into their clinical years, much less graduate a class.

So my takeaway from this is that regardless of CNU's accreditation, in all practicality, once a student is enrolled they will come out with a US MD from either CNU or another medical school. Is this correct?

Just trying to clarify each by their areas of expertise, but isn't Med Ed involved in policy or Medical education on a regional or national basis while gyngyn is on the admissions committee at a single medical school in CA? Med Ed seems to have some insight on the procedures that do occur when a medical school goes belly up and my conclusion that I've gathered from both of their comments is that, while there is no guarantee that the students would be accepted as transfers at different medical schools, in practice this will almost definitely happen because it's the right thing to do/ LCME doesn't want bad PR or lawsuits.

Do you not get that CNU puts it's financial interest ahead of their students????

From any thread I've read on CNU, I still am not convinced that it is agains an individual student's interest to attend. I've read lots of speculation and doom and gloom and compelling reasons why it is bad for medical education as a whole but very little specific facts that would make me consider DO over CNU based on my interests to graduate with an US allopathic medical degree and match successfully.

Well what is definitely not in their financial interests is for the school to get closed down. Besides that, if their financial interests align with my own interests to graduate with an MD and match into a decent residency then I don't see this as enough of a reason to choose DO over this school.

They were afraid of CNU's lawyers.

If LCME believed that CNU is destined to fail, why would they expand class size and expose more students to what is, in their view, a substandard education? I get this will cover some of CNU's losses, but why prop up a sinking ship and screw over students if the unspecific negative claims against CNU made on SDN are true? What does LCME have to gain from this?
Did CNU threaten legal action unless LCME expanded class size?

I believe that they are on LC<E's radar, and not in a good way. Interpret that as you will. Med Ed has made a compelling observation as to their financial future.
Do you foresee probation in the near future for CNU?

Is your impression that CNU is on LCME's radar in a bad way based on specific information that you are allowed to share or is it from word of mouth/sdn postings? What specifically makes you think this?
 
Will CNU students match? Sure, but it is interesting that if one mentions the word "Northstate" within earshot of program directors they typically make involuntary gagging gestures.

Is this a unanimous impression across program directors nationwide? This seems a bit hyperbolic, but what do I know. If this is true, do you think program director's would punish the students attending CNU over what you believe to be LCME's mistake? Would you consider it better to apply to ACGME programs as a DO when many program directors won't accept their applications at all?

The LCME writes and enforces a set of standards that it considers reasonable. It did not feel that it could legally defend itself if it denied accreditation to a for-profit institution that fulfilled the standards for preliminary accreditation. So CNU got accredited (after a rather prolonged series of false starts with Suskind at the helm). The only option the LCME had was to treat CNU like every other new allopathic school. Ditto for the class size increase, which does not require a new site visit or comprehensive re-examination of every nook and cranny of the school. CNU planned on the class size increase, built it into the preliminary accreditation plans, and could mount a legally defensible argument to win it.

The big unknown in all this is what will happen when the LCME returns for the provisional accreditation site visit with revised standards that are stricter, and does the full cavity search of their program. That's what people are waiting to see.

Ok so the class increase mechanism was built into the preliminary accreditation, I think this makes sense to me now. Thank you for clarifying.

Investors aren't philanthropists. They want their money back. With interest.

I have little knowledge on finance, but wouldn't CNU be funded by private equity? Does that involve interest at all? I thought it was more like buying and selling stock, but I'm honestly clueless here.

The LCME does not publish anything. Sometimes you can infer what went wrong based on public admissions by the school. Mostly you just know someone who knows someone who knows.

Do you know someone who knows someone at CNU or LCME providing you with information from which you've formed your impressions? I've gotten a negative impression from CNU but very little facts to base it on and I'm inclined to believe that it's just another neurotic SDN fixation that will blow over once the first class matches (like with Rocky Vista the for-profit DO school). The facts that I have been able to parse out from the hearsay, have not yet deterred my from applying and ranking it above DO schools if it comes down to it and probably even some of the newer OOS medical schools.

P.S. Six years ago the idea a private, for-profit, investor-funded medical school was floated in Palm Beach County, Florida. They were positing a starting class size of 100 with tuition of $50,700, so right out of the gate they were anticipating beginning annual tuition revenue of $5.07 million per class to make it work, which is more than Northstate has gotten.

The project died on the vine. A cautionary tale?

Is it a cautionary tale because it was a for-profit school that failed or am I missing the point? There is a for-profit DO school that is currently matching its students very well for a DO school, but I'm not entirely sure if I got your original point :/
 
Help me understand this. Why are you so fixated on CNU? Is it because you see a new CA school and want to remain in-state no matter what?

Because I bet that many strong, rockstar Cali applicants that also want to remain in-state end up moving OOS for med school anyways. CA has low IS matriculation % for a reason, since it is a very competitive state with strong applicant pool.

I'd personally apply to Western and Touro-CA over malicious for-profit schools like CNU that don't care about their students and education, and are only in it to make a nice profit out of their tuition.

I wouldn't say I'm fixated on CNU, but rather curious as to where the hate comes from. SDN tends to be a very neurotic place so I'd like to separate fact from hearsay so that I can make a good decision when the time comes. Out of all the schools in CA, CNU is probably the most likely to accept me based on my stats.

I'm trying to find where CNU fits on the dogma of USMD>DO>>>>>CarribeanMD. There doesn't seem to be a clear consensus and it's my impression that when it comes to match prospects that CNU will be no worse than any other new USMD school and maybe even better than some the don't have the best rotation sites. I'm somewhat local so I'm familiar with Kaiser Permanente and Sutter and these seem like way better rotation sites than the community hospitals that other new MD schools and most DO schools have to learn clinical medicine. I'm also confident that I'll be able to successfully study for step1 and the preclinical sciences independently regardless of whether or not the school's preclinical classes are helpful or not, but from what I hear they seem to teach to the test (NBME exams each block).

I'd disagree that Western and Touro are better alternatives given that lots of program directors would not even consider applications from them. I get the impression that CNU is just another Rocky Vista that will cease to be criticized once its first class matches but I'd like to get as much information as possible because they're inaugural class won't have graduated by the time I apply there.
 
Is this a unanimous impression across program directors nationwide? This seems a bit hyperbolic, but what do I know.

You're right, sometimes they just roll their eyes.

BSlugs2017 said:
If this is true, do you think program director's would punish the students attending CNU over what you believe to be LCME's mistake? Would you consider it better to apply to ACGME programs as a DO when many program directors won't accept their applications at all?

It may be somewhat limiting either way, but established osteopathic schools have very strong track records of matching their graduates. The overall NRMP match rate for DO's is about 80% and climbing.

BSlugs2017 said:
I have little knowledge on finance, but wouldn't CNU be funded by private equity? Does that involve interest at all? I thought it was more like buying and selling stock, but I'm honestly clueless here.

Either way the funder(s) of CNU are not donors. They are expecting some form of ROI.

BSlugs2017 said:
Do you know someone who knows someone at CNU or LCME providing you with information from which you've formed your impressions? I've gotten a negative impression from CNU but very little facts to base it on and I'm inclined to believe that it's just another neurotic SDN fixation that will blow over once the first class matches (like with Rocky Vista the for-profit DO school). The facts that I have been able to parse out from the hearsay, have not yet deterred my from applying and ranking it above DO schools if it comes down to it and probably even some of the newer OOS medical schools.

I know a lot of people who know people, and while there is always a dose of uncertainty in predicting the future, the persistent feeling I get is that CNU is financially shaky, at higher-than-average risk of accreditation problems, and if it stays open its graduates will be given higher-than-average scrutiny in the match. But I don't have a crystal ball. So again, all I can say is caveat emptor.

BSlugs2017 said:
Is it a cautionary tale because it was a for-profit school that failed or am I missing the point?

The school never even opened, and it was one that was counting on a rosier financial model than CNU's. If Palm Beach's investors walked over a model that started with $5 million/class, it doesn't bode well for one that did start with less.

BSlugs2017 said:
There is a for-profit DO school that is currently matching its students very well for a DO school, but I'm not entirely sure if I got your original point :/

At the risk of sounding like a jerk, there is already a fairly prevalent feeling that many of the new DO schools are non-profits in name only. COCA's standards are already significantly more lax than the LCME, so it isn't much of a stretch to have a for-profit osteopathic school. RVU's first match list was actually pretty bad; I would argue they have clawed their way to mediocrity, at best.
 
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I wouldn't say I'm fixated on CNU, but rather curious as to where the hate comes from.

If you have the time, try reading some or all of the 1910 Flexner Report, which described US medical education of that time. Its publication led to the closing or merging of virtually every for-profit medical school by 1935. The era of so-called proprietary medical education is considered a dark one in our history, and so the modern push for an acceptance of proprietary models (like CNU) elicits a PTSD-like reaction from many quarters of the profession.
 
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If you have the time, try reading some or all of the 1910 Flexner Report, which described US medical education of that time. Its publication led to the closing or merging of virtually every for-profit medical school by 1935. The era of so-called proprietary medical education is considered a dark one in our history, and so the modern push for an acceptance of proprietary models (like CNU) elicits a PTSD-like reaction from many quarters of the profession.
So there were potentially MD's practicing up till 1975 with questionable medical education?

Also , is there an exec summary of that report? I love to read and all, but 300 pages for an internet argument is a bit much for me.
 
So there were potentially MD's practicing up till 1975 with questionable medical education?

The NBME was founded in 1915, five years after the Flexner report was published, and it was generally a period when physician licensing because more standardized. There have always been quacks running around, but 1910 was really the start of a widespread effort to ensure physician quality.

libertyyne said:
Also , is there an exec summary of that report? I love to read and all, but 300 pages for an internet argument is a bit much for me.

The introduction and first three chapters are the most illuminating.
 
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At the risk of sounding like a jerk, there is already a fairly prevalent feeling that many of the new DO schools are non-profits in name only. COCA's standards are already significantly more lax than the LCME, so it isn't much of a stretch to have a for-profit osteopathic school. RVU's first match list was actually pretty bad; I would argue they have clawed their way to mediocrity, at best.

Is that true? I was under the impression from these boards that RVU was kind of the school that proved everyone wrong in that they all thought it was going to be a terrible for-profit spawn of Satan and turned out to be a pretty stellar school. Or did I accidentally drink some Kool-Aid?
 
If you have the time, try reading some or all of the 1910 Flexner Report, which described US medical education of that time. Its publication led to the closing or merging of virtually every for-profit medical school by 1935. The era of so-called proprietary medical education is considered a dark one in our history, and so the modern push for an acceptance of proprietary models (like CNU) elicits a PTSD-like reaction from many quarters of the profession.


Slightly off-topic/on-topic, but to piggy back since no one else mentioned it: The younger and more famous Flexner brother not only redefined educational standards but also thought that black people were inferior and his opinion directly led to the closing of all but two black schools of medicine (Howard and Meharry). This has arguably (I don't know the official sociology studies on this) contributed to the under representation within and mistrust of the healthcare system.

Doubtlessly, the report brought positive changes, but it just goes to show the shades of grey.

















Yikes. My liberal arts education is starting to manifest.
 
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Is that true? I was under the impression from these boards that RVU was kind of the school that proved everyone wrong in that they all thought it was going to be a terrible for-profit spawn of Satan and turned out to be a pretty stellar school. Or did I accidentally drink some Kool-Aid?

I'm not going to bother digging, but I distinctly recall examining RVU's first match list with some intensity, and found it to be largely a hodgepodge of no-name programs in noncompetitive specialties. In my view the apologists who claim RVU is somehow a shining jewel of osteopathic education are, at best, delusional.
 
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Slightly off-topic/on-topic, but to piggy back since no one else mentioned it: The younger and more famous Flexner brother not only redefined educational standards but also thought that black people were inferior and his opinion directly led to the closing of all but two black schools of medicine (Howard and Meharry). This has arguably (I don't know the official sociology studies on this) contributed to the under representation within and mistrust of the healthcare system.

Doubtlessly, the report brought positive changes, but it just goes to show the shades of grey.

Miller LE, Weiss RM. Revisiting black medical school extinctions in the Flexner era. J Hist Med Allied Sci. 67(2):217-43, 2012.

Abstract
Abraham Flexner's 1910 exposé on medical education recommended that only two of the seven extant medical schools for blacks be preserved and that they should train their students to "serve their people humbly" as "sanitarians." Addressing charges of racism, this article traces the roots of the recommendation that blacks serve a limited professional role to the schools themselves and presents evidence that, in endorsing the continuance of Howard's and Meharry's medical programs, Flexner exhibited greater leniency than he had toward comparable schools for white students. Whether his recommendations to eliminate the other five schools were key factors in their extinction is addressed here by examining 1901-30 enrollment patterns. Those patterns suggest that actions of the American Medical Association and state licensing boards, combined with the broader problem of limited premedical educational opportunities for blacks, were more consequential than was the Flexner report both for the extinction of the schools and for the curtailed production of black doctors.

sullen-burger said:
Yikes. My liberal arts education is starting to manifest.

Don't let an ounce of skepticism go to your head.
 
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Miller LE, Weiss RM. Revisiting black medical school extinctions in the Flexner era. J Hist Med Allied Sci. 67(2):217-43, 2012.

Abstract
Abraham Flexner's 1910 exposé on medical education recommended that only two of the seven extant medical schools for blacks be preserved and that they should train their students to "serve their people humbly" as "sanitarians." Addressing charges of racism, this article traces the roots of the recommendation that blacks serve a limited professional role to the schools themselves and presents evidence that, in endorsing the continuance of Howard's and Meharry's medical programs, Flexner exhibited greater leniency than he had toward comparable schools for white students. Whether his recommendations to eliminate the other five schools were key factors in their extinction is addressed here by examining 1901-30 enrollment patterns. Those patterns suggest that actions of the American Medical Association and state licensing boards, combined with the broader problem of limited premedical educational opportunities for blacks, were more consequential than was the Flexner report both for the extinction of the schools and for the curtailed production of black doctors.



Don't let an ounce of skepticism go to your head.

A bit confused. Does the Flexner Report apply to DO schools? The most reputed ones seem to follow the guidelines carefully and strictly, but I suspect many new ones don't.

Also, I read somewhere that one of Flexner's original objectives for medical education reform was to reduce the number of medical schools (and hence why his proposed standards did in fact led many to close their doors and disappear). Flexner also wanted to wipe out for-profit schools. Yet surprisingly, there has been a substantial growth in US MD and US DO schools. What happened?

And what led new for-profit med schools to arise and get accredited? How did they satisfy the requirements from the Flexner Report?

Yeah admittedly, I'm interested in learning more about medical education + reform, since it's pretty fascinating.
 
I'm not going to bother digging, but I distinctly recall examining RVU's first match list with some intensity, and found it to be largely a hodgepodge of no-name programs in noncompetitive specialties. In my view the apologists who claim RVU is somehow a shining jewel of osteopathic education are, at best, delusional.

Roger. I wasn't planning on applying there anyway (for other reasons), but still good to know.
 
I'm not going to bother digging, but I distinctly recall examining RVU's first match list with some intensity, and found it to be largely a hodgepodge of no-name programs in noncompetitive specialties. In my view the apologists who claim RVU is somehow a shining jewel of osteopathic education are, at best, delusional.

Have you looked at a more recent one? As far as DO match lists go it is as good as anywhere else that frequently gets called a "top" DO school. I think your view is skewed and lacking honestly. Not going to say RVU is the best thing since sliced bread but to say it isn't a good school is extremely short sighted...
 
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@Med Ed thanks for presenting me with new information that I was previously unaware of before now. Help me though as I am confused.

Don't let an ounce of skepticism go to your head.

I don't understand what you mean by this.

Combined with your quote from a study with lacking explanation on your part and your unclear statement that I shouldn't let skepticism get to my head, I don't see the point of your post.

Are you trying to just add more info to this subject? That's cool! Thanks!

The study you reference is just a piece of the answer, not the only one. And because your response was pithy, I have no way of knowing what you meant. Assuming you meant to correct me with a quick google search to an article that can't be accessed in full unless one has a subscription, I can't accurately analyze the whole article.

But I can tell you from reading the quote that the abstract you cite is only one part of the answer. Unfortunately, there's more to this issue than your quote. Again, as with shades of grey, there's more to it than just one answer.

The AMA and licensing boards did have the ultimate say in refusing licensing to schools, which ultimately would then close their doors. Flexner was not in a position to literally close their doors. And I never wrote that he did. I think I said his advise directly led to their closure. Which in large part, it did. As it turns out, the answer lies on a spectrum somewhere in the middle and I'm so happy you've brought up a particular part of US medical education and history that most people are unfamiliar with! So, irrespective of your intentions, I will now try to succinctly explain my thoughts because I think this time in our history is so cool!! Let's begin.



Flexner was not the first person to seek medical education reform when he reported his two year findings in 1910. The AMAs Council on medical education (CME) formed in 1904 and gave recommendations to all schools to improve based on their board rates and personal visits to schools, starting in 1904. These pre-Flexner reports were not explicitly targeting black colleges, but instead giving them, and others, notice. And many, including the black schools, sought immediate revisions. Unfortunately, because most black applicants did not meet new qualification requirements (one year of science pre reqs), coupled with the fact that black schools still depended on enrolled student tuition to avoid financial ruin due to lack of outside funding, these colleges were not as eager to implement these AMA guidelines as were the other colleges. For the simple fact that financial aid to black colleges was scarce, colleges already had pressure, pre-Flexner, from the AMA to improve their quality.

The year Flexner started his report, 3 of the black schools in the worst shape, both financially and academically, had to close their doors- before his report came out. Historians show that the AMA had already found, in 1904 and in 1908, that some black medical schools were lacking. Flexners report, completed in 1910, reflected their previous ideas, so they readily acted on his recommendations.

I'm choosing not to go into the uncomfortable facts of Flexner's thoughts on black physicians, his ideas of their inferior capabilities, and his subscription that black people carried around specific germs that put whites at risk.

What is interesting to note though is the awareness of black medical schools and their standards pre 1910. Or rather, how little anyone really cared before Flexner to implement changes. Although the CME did publish results on medical education since its inception, none of the discussion about medicine in JAMA ever mentioned black medical school education pre-1910; and JAMA mentioned women's education only very briefly. The point is that it was not until Flexner that there was a relatively microscopic view placed over the black colleges. A view that has historically shown to reflect the opinions of a country with racial tensions. His views were that 5 black schools needed to be shut down because they were wasting money and producing unqualified physicians (while also hinting that black physicians couldn't be solely responsible for the health of their people because of perceived lack of abilities). He instead supported Howard's and Meharrys current facilities and endowments, urging that these two schools become recipients of financial aid and improvement.

The following years saw an immediate closure of one school Flexner severely criticized, all the way until 20 years later when the last of the five finally gave in to closure. The first school to immediately close cited their inability to fund the conditions for the new and intense CME guidelines. What official response was there to this? The black physician equivalent of the AMA, the NMA, had earlier already recognized the weakness of certain schools and had given its recommendations on how to improve conditions without public embarrassment, but only then after the Flexner report, the failing conditions became obviously and publicly embarrassing.

For the next decade, Howard and Meharry struggled to survive, along with 4 other schools. Flexner actually tried to help secure funding for Meharry and one other, but contemporary records show that his 1910 report directly led to the closure of three of the 5 he found unfit. Agencies and philanthropists did not get behind the struggling schools and to this day the blame game is bounced between Carnegie and Flexner for their inability to secure funding for the struggling four schools after 1912. To his credit where documented credit is due, Flexner found the CME to be judging the black schools too harshly and did try to find funding through his position at the General Education Board. Not enough public or private support was found for the other 4 schools and consequently they were unable to fund the conditions that would meet CME standards after Flexners severe suggestions targeted at the black schools.

Though Meharry and Howard did eventually find money and graduate up to 100 black students a year by 1950, they were still limited in their capabilities.

Given that the mindset (beginning with Flexner and his own words) continued to be the notion that schools for minorities should only produce physicians for their own kind, schools continued to refuse black students until 1966, further contributing to the reality that exists today. A reality, which unequivocally began with Flexners own words


Sorry for derailing the thread, but this topic goes hand in hand with modern day implicit bias during doctor-patient interactions like when physicians are incorrectly prescribing pain medications to minorities, physicians perceiving minorities' cardiac chest pains different than white cardiac pain, and the existence of minorities' suspicion of the healthcare system. Understanding the past is key to the present and future. The facts are that Flexners report came in the midst of educational reform, not at the forefront. He helped push an already rolling cart. That's what makes his contribution significant.

What's almost never mentioned whenever someone talks Flexner in passing are the shade of grey that goes with his report and the consequences.





Also. I despise arrogance.

http://thescholarship.ecu.edu/bitstream/handle/10342/3086/Abraham Flexner black medical schools.pdf


http://mobile.journals.lww.com/acad....aspx?year=2010&issue=02000&article=00021#ath
 
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For the USMLE veterans out there, what would you have done differently after 1st semester of medical school to do well on that test? I'm going to be more FA oriented and research heavy next semester. I think I finally have figured out how to study in order to do well in classes.
 
Have you looked at a more recent one? As far as DO match lists go it is as good as anywhere else that frequently gets called a "top" DO school. I think your view is skewed and lacking honestly. Not going to say RVU is the best thing since sliced bread but to say it isn't a good school is extremely short sighted...

I have, although they aren't very easy to find, and I guess one person's top is another person's middle. RVU does that annoying thing where they conveniently omit certain details from their match lists, like the person who matched in IM at the University of Chicago this year. It was actually the U of C NorthShore program. A fine place to train, no doubt, but that little hint of presumed obfuscation always rubs me the wrong way.

Just checked out the 2015 match list again. Looking at the ACGME side there are certainly some good ones, particularly the bottom three EM matches. But therein lies the problem, one can cherry pick a few strong matches to highlight and make any list look good. The simple fact is that the ACGME matches comprise mostly primary care fields +psych +OB/GYN, with representation from a lot of community programs. Anesthesiology and rads also bottomed out a couple of years ago in terms of competitiveness (part of the natural cycle of things).

In terms of truly competitive specialties, they had two go into AOA ortho programs. I mean, its not bad, but IMHO they just seem to have risen to the soft middle of all DO schools.
 
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Meh, tons of whites thought that way in those times. So did Abraham Lincoln, who wanted wanted to settle all the freed slaves in Nicaragua.

Moral of the story: yes, their actions had consequences, but we shouldn't always view things through the prism of 2016. We at least have four HBCs now, and UR< admissions policies, so the pendulum has swung back toward justice, as the arc of the universe always does.


Slightly off-topic/on-topic, but to piggy back since no one else mentioned it: The younger and more famous Flexner brother not only redefined educational standards but also thought that black people were inferior and his opinion directly led to the closing of all but two black schools of medicine (Howard and Meharry). This has arguably (I don't know the official sociology studies on this) contributed to the under representation within and mistrust of the healthcare system.

Doubtlessly, the report brought positive changes, but it just goes to show the shades of grey.
Yikes. My liberal arts education is starting to manifest.

Well, the US population has tripled in that time, for one. And while I can't speak for COCA and RVU and BCOM (although COCA's standards are less rigorous than LCME), it seems that CNU pulled a fast one of LCME. Don't expect any new for-profit MD schools to appear anytime soon.

Also, I read somewhere that one of Flexner's original objectives for medical education reform was to reduce the number of medical schools (and hence why his proposed standards did in fact led many to close their doors and disappear). Flexner also wanted to wipe out for-profit schools. Yet surprisingly, there has been a substantial growth in US MD and US DO schools. What happened?
 
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MD. You need to work a lot harder in the entire four years if you do DO.
 
MD. You need to work a lot harder in the entire four years if you do DO if you want a residency at a competitive teaching hospital or in a competitive specialty.

FTFY
 
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I wouldn't close any doors just for $160,000 + interest. Yes, that is a huge amount of money, but what if you wanted to do a competitive residency? going DO route will most likely close that door for you unless you're an exceptional student. Plus, the difference in salary between ortho, derm, and ENT vs. primary care over the span of 30+ years of working will definitely pay off in the long run.
are you implying that those specialties dont require you to be exceptional even if you're an MD student?
 
are you implying that those specialties dont require you to be exceptional even if you're an MD student?

No but if you are exceptional as an MD student then you will get those specialties. If you are exceptional as a DO student then you still might not. This isn't even to talk about the tier of program. An exceptional MD has a chance anywhere, an exceptional DO just has a chance to match.
 
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A bit confused. Does the Flexner Report apply to DO schools? The most reputed ones seem to follow the guidelines carefully and strictly, but I suspect many new ones don't.

Also, I read somewhere that one of Flexner's original objectives for medical education reform was to reduce the number of medical schools (and hence why his proposed standards did in fact led many to close their doors and disappear). Flexner also wanted to wipe out for-profit schools. Yet surprisingly, there has been a substantial growth in US MD and US DO schools. What happened?

And what led new for-profit med schools to arise and get accredited? How did they satisfy the requirements from the Flexner Report?

Yeah admittedly, I'm interested in learning more about medical education + reform, since it's pretty fascinating.

The Flexner Report did not set out requirements, per se, but it did put forth the notion that Hopkins was doing it right. By that I mean JHU had a four year curriculum, two in the classroom, two in the hospital, with bona fide admissions standards, faculty, facilities, and other resources to give a quality education. If you compare most medical schools today against the gold standard of over 100 years ago, the lasting imprint of the JHU model is very clear.

You are right, there has been substantial growth of US MD and DO schools... since 1935. In the wake of the Flexner Report there were numerous closings and mergers of underperforming schools from 1910 to about 1935. This was basically a period of flushing out the garbage, much of which occurred not directly from the Report itself but from a combination of new accreditation and licensing standards. In the modern era, it is significant to note that a flurry of new MD schools opened in the 1960's and 1970's, but after Mercer in 1982 there wasn't a new allopathic medical school in the US until FSU was founded in 2000.

Without getting into details, for-profit ("proprietary") medical education had been held at bay since 1935 largely because the profession of medicine was considered fundamentally humanistic, with money being a necessary but corrosive facet of its practice. Nowadays medical education is just a seller's market, and wherever a seller's market exists there will be investors looking to capitalize. The LCME apparently pondered an explicit ban on for-profit medical schools, but figured they would lose in court. Their new approach is still playing out...
 
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A bit confused. Does the Flexner Report apply to DO schools?

Flexner did indeed visit the osteopathic schools of the day. A PDF of the report is available here. The entry for Kirksville (formerly the American School of Osteopathy) is on page 253, and is somewhat amusing in retrospect.

In the period after the report, when accreditation and licensing standards were being developed an implemented around the country, the AOA got on the train. This allowed most of the eight osteopathic schools that existed in 1910 to stay open.
  • Los Angeles College of Osteopathy - evolved into UC Irvine (1962)
  • Pacific College of Osteopathy - closed
  • Littlejohn College of Osteopathy - evolved into CCOM at Midwestern University
  • Still College of Osteopathy - evolved into DMU
  • Massachusetts College of Osteopathy - closed
  • Central College of Osteopathy - merged into KCUMB
  • American School of Osteopathy - evolved into KCOM
  • Philadelphia College of Infirmary and Osteopathy - evolved into PCOM
 
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I wouldn't close any doors just for $160,000 + interest. Yes, that is a huge amount of money, but what if you wanted to do a competitive residency? going DO route will most likely close that door for you unless you're an exceptional student. Plus, the difference in salary between ortho, derm, and ENT vs. primary care over the span of 30+ years of working will definitely pay off in the long run.

That's an interesting point. How does one who is naturally an exceptional student differ from a DO school vs a MD school?
 
I've taught students at both MD and DO schools, and an exceptional student is an exceptional student. Period. Some of the MD student s may have been a tad more arrogant, but my sample size is small.


That's an interesting point. How does one who is naturally an exceptional student differ from a DO school vs a MD school?
 
No but if you are exceptional as an MD student then you will get those specialties. If you are exceptional as a DO student then you still might not. This isn't even to talk about the tier of program. An exceptional MD has a chance anywhere, an exceptional MD just has a chance to match.

Your last sentence was a bit confusing. Did you mean that an exceptional MD has a chance anywhere, while an exceptional DO has a chance to match? Why is there a bias?
 
Your last sentence was a bit confusing. Did you mean that an exceptional MD has a chance anywhere, while an exceptional DO has a chance to match? Why is there a bias?

Yes that's what I meant, I fixed it now. Thanks!

Why is there a bias? Lots of reasons. The pure fact that you didn't go to an allopathic school is a factor. Then come things like unknown quality of clinical education and stuff like that.
 
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Going DO makes getting into ACGME ENT, plastics, derm, surgery, neurosurgery, CT, ortho, vascular surgery, radiology oncology, extremely hard and almost impossible. Let's not forget almost all top tier IM programs, a huge swath of mid tier IM programs are also locked out as a DO. The only specialties where you DOs have really landed some great locations (including ucsd, UCLA, Stanford, and the like) have been in FM, PM&R, Psych, Peds and Pathology.

Would have to disagree that 90% it doesn't make a difference where you want to go. If you want to do fellowship (and many do), where you go to residency matters and can help tremendously.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Results-and-Data-SMS-2017.pdf

Getting a fellowship as a DO isn't so gloomy and doomy. Nor do I even think it's an uphill battle to be honest. BUT, with that said, I do think strategy does need to be implemented. Like You and @AnatomyGrey12 say, you want to go to a good residency (preferably Academic IM) so you can engage in meaningful research and hopefully the IM program has the fellowship in-house.

By strategy, I mean apply to low-tier MD Academic IM programs. There are PLENTY and there are plenty of DO's and even more IMG's and FMG's who get into them. Furthermore, look at how many DO's IMG's and FMG's get fellowships every year. I think the problems come when applicants don't apply wisely for residencies. Many would rather apply to a local community program with no research because it's in a good location/close to family vs. moving to a random academic program in, say Michigan, Kansas, Missouri, Tennessee, Kentucky, etc. etc. and working their but off there.

Also, we look at these numbers, but at times we need to take them with a grain of salt. A vast majority of MD's and DO's are not as informed as we are about these topics, simply because they don't think about them until wayyyy later. Like some people may go to community IM programs, then in their last year when applying for a fellowship do they realize that they could've done it differently. I've met students who don't even know what SDN is, don't know what the match is, don't know what the merger is, etc. etc. etc.


And I know it's a huge ego blow at times, but who cares if the ENT, plastics, etc. etc. residencies are AOA rather than ACGME. There are many instances where an MD applicant can't match into those specialties anyways (like my friend who didn't match this year as a U.S. MD into Ortho), BUT if they went to a DO school and applied AOA for those competitive specialties they might've become the specialty they desired. No one stops to think like that for some reason, but it's true.
 
I hope you chose MD....choose MD!!
Honestly, once you finish school and get into an amazing residency program, and then finish the residency program and start with an amazing salary, that extra debt will be gone before you know it!
Don't do DO, so many specialties will be out of reach, + their USMLE scores aren't as good either (could be the education).
 
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I hope you chose MD....choose MD!!
Honestly, once you finish school and get into an amazing residency program, and then finish the residency program and start with an amazing salary, that extra debt will be gone before you know it!
Don't do DO, so many specialties will be out of reach, + their USMLE scores aren't as good either (could be the education).

No specialty is out of reach for DO. Most DO's who get competitive specialties have done so through the AOA match. USMLE scores are on you as a student, not as much on the institution.

But with that said, an MD helps keep more doors open. I think there is just a complete lack of info about the DO world for many people who are not in it.
 
As a first year DO student, go MD if you actually have the option.

If you cannot, then go DO.

OPP is cool and all... but if you have the option... why put yourself through the extra hassle of learning and being tested on stuff that a majority of DOs never use in practice.

I wish I would have worked harder in undergrad to end up in an MD program but no complaints!

Med school is kicking my butt and I'm kicking it's butt right back.
 
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