Cheap DO vs Expensive MD

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so if LCME shuts down CNU, CNU can just sue them and get its accreditation reinstated? thats my fear: once a med school achieves its accreditation, its there for good and unlikely to be wiped out/shut down

Shutting down an accredited school is a difficult prospect, in part because of legal challenges, in part because the existing students have to be sent to other medical schools to complete their degrees. It's a total mess.

One of the things you learn very quickly in medicine is that anyone can sue anybody over anything, but that does not mean the suit will have merit or be victorious. I suspect CNU underestimated the true cost of running an allopathic school, which erodes the profit incentive. The only way out is raise tuition, and without the financial backing of a real university and/or health system the LCME might have a strong justification for pulling the plug.

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Beyond the ridiculousness of all that....I just want to see some evidence behind this notion that taking history classes makes you a more empathetic doctor.

I don't believe the assumption is that taking humanities classes are causative of empathy, but people who have greater humanistic tendencies are more likely to be found taking humanities classes.

ConfusedChemist said:
It's kind of like saying someone will be more athletically gifted because you put them in gym class. When really, they'll just be the same uncoordinated person, but in gym class

To my point, if you want to find someone who is athletically gifted where do you look? I would start at the gym, as they are more likely to be concentrated there. Conversely, if I want to find a conveyor belt of biology major drones, I will head to the nearest premedical club.
 
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It was conveniently omitted that the OU MHSP receives 125-150 applications, interviews 15, and accepts 5-8. One does not simply waltz in with a 3.7/509.
I agree with you. I remain cynical of the claims made, but my internet pitchforks have dulled in old age. I just posted it to show that the person did not even meet the threshold for that program. That's not to say that he couldn't have other qualities that made him an attractive candidate.
 
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okay this makes sense. although this requires being confident in pursuing primary care before starting med school.
The opposite, actually; you need to be confident you won't have any interest in low-reimbursement specialties if you pursue a high-costdegree
 
The opposite, actually; you need to be confident you won't have any interest in low-reimbursement specialties if you pursue a high-costdegree

i meant being confident in primary care in regards to choosing the cheaper DO option.

Although im not sure how much would it help if the cheaper DO option never existed, and someone was stuck with only a really expensive school to attend. So that'd mean they have to pick the more high-reimbursement specialties (and thus more competitive) to quickly pay off the debts

Shutting down an accredited school is a difficult prospect, in part because of legal challenges, in part because the existing students have to be sent to other medical schools to complete their degrees. It's a total mess.

One of the things you learn very quickly in medicine is that anyone can sue anybody over anything, but that does not mean the suit will have merit or be victorious. I suspect CNU underestimated the true cost of running an allopathic school, which erodes the profit incentive. The only way out is raise tuition, and without the financial backing of a real university and/or health system the LCME might have a strong justification for pulling the plug.

in the event CNU gets shut down because of shady finances (and the CNU lawsuit fails), where would the CNU students go? do they really have to complete their degree despite knowing they took a heavy risk attending a shady school like CNU? wasnt sure if theres a law that requires them to complete their degree once started in US
 
Isn't there like zero incentive to not pick a reach for your residency considering the algorithm?
Is there a any metric that could point towards bias in obtaining residency?

Except that there's a good chance you will never be offered an interview at said institution. If my top choice is Harvard and they don't offer me an interview, suddenly "matching at my top choice" has a very different significance.

For many people, their top ranked institution on their match list may not be at all what their top choice was.
 
Except that there's a good chance you will never be offered an interview at said institution. If my top choice is Harvard and they don't offer me an interview, suddenly "matching at my top choice" has a very different significance.

For many people, their top ranked institution on their match list may not be at all what their top choice was.
Is there a cost for adding additional programs ? I still am confused about the downside. You just add Harvard UCSF, and keep on going down the list. Eventually you hit with the same frequency you would since the algo matches the person's preference first.
 
Is there a cost for adding additional programs ? I still am confused about the downside. You just add Harvard UCSF, and keep on going down the list. Eventually you hit with the same frequency you would since the algo matches the person's preference first.
There is a cost at I think 25-30 ranks (been a while since I matched). Also pointless because you won't match there without an interview.
 
Is there a cost for adding additional programs ? I still am confused about the downside. You just add Harvard UCSF, and keep on going down the list. Eventually you hit with the same frequency you would since the algo matches the person's preference first.

I'm not suggesting cost is the issue (although it is an issue). The conversation was about statistics regarding DOs vs MDs getting "into their first choice." But your first choice vs the best of the crappy choices you actually have are quite often two very different things, so any mythical statistics on it would be inherently flawed.

When people say "oh I matched into my top choice" for residency, there is already an unbelievable amount of self selection that has occurred.

It's like voting for either Hillary or Trump and having them win. It's still a ****ty outcome, just the one you felt was slightly less ****ty.
 
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in the event CNU gets shut down because of shady finances (and the CNU lawsuit fails), where would the CNU students go? do they really have to complete their degree despite knowing they took a heavy risk attending a shady school like CNU? wasnt sure if theres a law that requires them to complete their degree once started in US

Like it or not, CNU obtained preliminary accreditation, and therefore all the students who signed up have been joining an accredited institution. If accreditation is revoked or the school goes under for another reason the only fair and humane thing to do is find other medical schools willing to take the students. It happened with San Juan Bautista, it happened with Oral Roberts.
 
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Like it or not, CNU obtained preliminary accreditation, and therefore all the students who signed up have been joining an accredited institution. If accreditation is revoked or the school goes under for another reason the only fair and humane thing to do is find other medical schools willing to take the students. It happened with San Juan Bautista, it happened with Oral Roberts.

but if CNU gets shut down and no other schools can accommodate them for whatever reason, what happens? while i understand it's humane to accommodate students who got slammed, i really don't think it's fair for schools to be required to take them in out of empathy.

or how about the alternative: CNU's accreditation gets revoked but the M1s there are allowed to graduate. is this possible under the ACGME/LCME standards?
 
i meant being confident in primary care in regards to choosing the cheaper DO option.
I know what you meant, obviously I wasn't being clear enough

If you're sure you want to pricare, in practice, in the community, 100% = cheaper is probably better, even if DO
If you're sure you want to do dermato-oculo-plastics at Hardale = prestige is probably better at any price

But there's a lot of gray in between there and as such you can't definitively say MD is always better than DO at any price. The most important thing to consider is the fact that most premeds will not know what kind of specialty they want in the end, so it's about protecting opportunities. The focus here in SDN is usually protecting things like derm and surgical subs. The problem with over-emphasis on this is that your opportunity to do primary care is predicated on manageable finances; so in the zeal to protect one end of opportunities, you may lose out on the other. Just like a DO who wants to do ENT might be "forced" into IM, an over-indebted MD might be forced into cardiology when s/he actually wanted to practice urban family medicine.
 
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I know what you meant, obviously I wasn't being clear enough

If you're sure you want to pricare, in practice, in the community, 100% = cheaper is probably better, even if DO
If you're sure you want to do dermato-oculo-plastics at Hardale = prestige is probably better at any price

But there's a lot of gray in between there and as such you can't definitively say MD is always better than DO at any price. The most important thing to consider is the fact that most premeds will not know what kind of specialty they want in the end, so it's about protecting opportunities. The focus here in SDN is usually protecting things like derm and surgical subs. The problem with over-emphasis on this is that your opportunity to do primary care is predicated on manageable finances; so in the zeal to protect one end of opportunities, you may lose out on the other. Just like a DO who wants to do ENT might be "forced" into IM, an over-indebted MD might be forced into cardiology when s/he actually wanted to practice urban family medicine.

Ah this makes sense. Thanks!
 
I'm not suggesting cost is the issue (although it is an issue). The conversation was about statistics regarding DOs vs MDs getting "into their first choice." But your first choice vs the best of the crappy choices you actually have are quite often two very different things, so any mythical statistics on it would be inherently flawed.

When people say "oh I matched into my top choice" for residency, there is already an unbelievable amount of self selection that has occurred.

It's like voting for either Hillary or Trump and having them win. It's still a ****ty outcome, just the one you felt was slightly less ****ty.
So futility is enough to deter people from applying to programs they cannot get into? That doesnt stop people from applying to medical schools they have no business applying to, I am unsure how residency would be different. How do people gauge their competitiveness prior to applying? lets say a DO has AOA good letters, and 260 on step I. what is stopping that person from applying to top ortho spots, even if he or she knows they exclude DO's there is no incentive not to apply except a few hundred dollars.
 
So futility is enough to deter people from applying to programs they cannot get into? That doesnt stop people from applying to medical schools they have no business applying to, I am unsure how residency would be different. How do people gauge their competitiveness prior to applying? lets say a DO has AOA good letters, and 260 on step I. what is stopping that person from applying to top ortho spots, even if he or she knows they exclude DO's there is no incentive not to apply except a few hundred dollars.

Again, no one is stopping anyone from applying to every program in their specialty (well, money might). But if I apply to Harvard because they're my top choice, and I am not offered an interview, then regardless of whether I match at my eventual #1 rank on my match list, I failed to match at my top choice (hell, they didn't even interview me).

Let me spell it out further, at the risk of hurting some poor little feelings. Chances are if you're at a DO school and you have aspirations for something above mediocre primary care programs, you will never achieve this and your "number one choice" will in reality be closer to your 500th choice in the end.
 
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Again, no one is stopping anyone from applying to every program in their specialty (well, money might). But if I apply to Harvard because they're my top choice, and I am not offered an interview, then regardless of whether I match at my eventual #1 rank on my match list, I failed to match at my top choice.

Let me spell it out further, at the risk of hurting some poor little feelings. Chances are if you're at a DO school and you have aspirations for something above mediocre primary care programs, you will never achieve this and your "number one choice" will in reality be closer to your 500th choice in the end.
Ah, thank you that makes more sense. The rank list determination is made after the interviews are completed. So the candidates can apply to reaches, but they never get an interview so they never rank each other. Then we dont really know if DO's really want to do primary care, or if they rarely get interviews for anything else. So the initial application data with a prelim rank would give us more insight, but that does not exist.
 
Ah, thank you that makes more sense. The rank list determination is made after the interviews are completed. So the candidates can apply to reaches, but they never get an interview so they never rank each other. Then we dont really know if DO's really want to do primary care, or if they rarely get interviews for anything else. So the initial application data with a prelim rank would give us more insight, but that does not exist.

Bingo. Sorry for seemingly being frustrated with you, I forget that not everyone has been through the match or is well versed in it.

But yes, it is impossible to ascertain what a student's number one program (or even number one specialty) truly is.
 
Again, no one is stopping anyone from applying to every program in their specialty (well, money might). But if I apply to Harvard because they're my top choice, and I am not offered an interview, then regardless of whether I match at my eventual #1 rank on my match list, I failed to match at my top choice (hell, they didn't even interview me).

Let me spell it out further, at the risk of hurting some poor little feelings. Chances are if you're at a DO school and you have aspirations for something above mediocre primary care programs, you will never achieve this and your "number one choice" will in reality be closer to your 500th choice in the end.

Sounds like you have some personal feelings into this topic. If you work hard, you get what you want....I sure did....eh. :ninja:

Ah, thank you that makes more sense. The rank list determination is made after the interviews are completed. So the candidates can apply to reaches, but they never get an interview so they never rank each other. Then we dont really know if DO's really want to do primary care, or if they rarely get interviews for anything else. So the initial application data with a prelim rank would give us more insight, but that does not exist.

When pre-meds or anyone looks at rank lists and uses that as a guage, it's utterly useless. If the best most prestigious SDN MD school matches only 1 person into Ortho and Derm, but the worst MD school ever matches 15 people into Ortho and Derm, does that mean #1 > #x. Who knows?! Maybe school 1 had 30 people trying for those specialties and failed or they had no one interested in those...

Needless to say, SDN and pre-meds have a strong bias about MD > DO. In the end, you need to choose what school gives you the best opportunity to succeed. Location? Family? Ect? If none of these are important, but you know you want to do neuro-derma-ortho at Yale, then yes, you probably need a lot of connections and MD will help. If you want to do Ortho and be a private practice guy, then either school is fine.
 
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Bingo. Sorry for seemingly being frustrated with you, I forget that not everyone has been through the match or is well versed in it.

But yes, it is impossible to ascertain what a student's number one program (or even number one specialty) truly is.
Thank you for explaining it. It is all mysterous to people outside the process.
 
I swear, Lawper, you're addicted to all these "what ifs".

If a school's accreditation gets revoked, the M1's have to go elsewhere. Period. This has happened with SJB. And my understanding is that other schools have to accommodate them in some way. It won't be pretty. Perhaps @gyngyn can enlighten us more on the SJB saga?


but if CNU gets shut down and no other schools can accommodate them for whatever reason, what happens? while i understand it's humane to accommodate students who got slammed, i really don't think it's fair for schools to be required to take them in out of empathy.

or how about the alternative: CNU's accreditation gets revoked but the M1s there are allowed to graduate. is this possible under the ACGME/LCME standards?
 
I swear, Lawper, you're addicted to all these "what ifs".

If a school's accreditation gets revoked, the M1's have to go elsewhere. Period. This has happened with SJB. And my understanding is that other schools have to accommodate them in some way. It won't be pretty. Perhaps @gyngyn can enlighten us more on the SJB saga?

i ask this because having other schools accommodate the M1s from the school that got shut down would lead to major complications, both for the current class (for obvious reasons) and for future classes (admissions will become much more selective/more likely to accept fewer students to prevent this disaster from reoccurring). because of these difficulties, once a med school gets its preliminary accreditation approved, it's there for good, unless something unusual happens as @Med Ed had pointed out (i.e. merging, vanishing etc.).

the CNU debacle is troublesome because of these unsettling ripple effects that would severely impact Cali schools if and when it gets shut down. this makes Cali an even more selective state. and all this avoidable disaster occurred because of LCME's carelessness and hastiness in approving its preliminary accreditation.
 
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CNU has what 60 students? There are 9 MD schools in CA. That's 7 extra students per school, just in CA. Add more schools around the country and the effect is negligible.
Again, I defer to the wise @gyngyn or @Med Ed for their comments on the logistics of this.

i ask this because having other schools accommodate the M1s from the school that got shut down would lead to major complications, both for the current class (for obvious reasons) and for future classes (admissions will become much more selective/more likely to accept fewer students to prevent this disaster from reoccurring). because of these difficulties, once a med school gets its preliminary accreditation approved, it's there for good, unless something unusual happens as @Med Ed had pointed out (i.e. merging, vanishing etc.).

the CNU debacle is troublesome because of these unsettling ripple effects that would severely impact Cali schools if and when it gets shut down. this makes Cali an even more selective state. and all this avoidable disaster occurred because of LCME's carelessness and hastiness in approving its preliminary accreditation.
 
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CNU has what 60 students? There are 9 MD schools in CA. That's 7 extra students per school, just in CA. Add more schools around the country and the effect is negligible.
Again, I defer to the wise @gyngyn or @Med Ed for their comments on the logistics of this.
I'm pretty sure that none of us want them.
 
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but if CNU gets shut down and no other schools can accommodate them for whatever reason, what happens? while i understand it's humane to accommodate students who got slammed, i really don't think it's fair for schools to be required to take them in out of empathy.

Other schools would accommodate. Period.

Lawper said:
or how about the alternative: CNU's accreditation gets revoked but the M1s there are allowed to graduate. is this possible under the ACGME/LCME standards?

A school is either accredited or not accredited. There is no category of "you're good enough to graduate the current class but not good enough to take any more."
 
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CNU has what 60 students? There are 9 MD schools in CA. That's 7 extra students per school, just in CA. Add more schools around the country and the effect is negligible.
Again, I defer to the wise @gyngyn or @Med Ed for their comments on the logistics of this.

It'll be more than 60 (since the M1s are currently enrolled, and likely there'll be few more classes over the next few years) but okay I can see that. It's only a marginal increase if the students are distributed nationwide.

Other schools would accommodate. Period.

A school is either accredited or not accredited. There is no category of "you're good enough to graduate the current class but not good enough to take any more."

So this means if the accommodation happens, the new host school will adjust its admission standards to enroll only a smaller future class to compensate, correct?
 
No. And IF LCME works like COCA on this regard, MD schools are allowed to engage in a overflow, which is built in for attrition.

.So this means if the accommodation happens, the new host school will adjust its admission standards to enroll only a smaller future class to compensate, correct?
 
No. And IF LCME works like COCA on this regard, MD schools are allowed to engage in a overflow, which is built in for attrition.

MD schools can increase their class sizes 10% year-over-year without obtaining LCME approval. A place with 100-120 students per class could absorb 6 without blinking.
 
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No. And IF LCME works like COCA on this regard, MD schools are allowed to engage in a overflow, which is built in for attrition.
That's morbid, don't MD schools have very little attrition?
 
That's morbid, don't MD schools have very little attrition?

That 10% margin doesn't exist for attrition purposes, per se, but it does give schools some flexibility in terms of overbooking or slow, deliberate class expansion. One must also factor in that a not-insignificant number of students end up repeating a year.
 
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No. And IF LCME works like COCA on this regard, MD schools are allowed to engage in a overflow, which is built in for attrition.
Schools, plural. The students would be dispersed to spread the burden.
MD schools can increase their class sizes 10% year-over-year without obtaining LCME approval. A place with 100-120 students per class could absorb 6 without blinking.

So we have some failsafe mechanisms employed in the event a med school collapses. But wouldn't this mean the ACGME/LCME accreditation process ought to be strict to minimize these slipups? Hard to imagine the LCME got careless on an avoidable dilemma

Also does the LCME approve mergers between med schools? Is there a separate regulatory process that the 2+ schools need to meet to merge?
 
Honest opinion everyone. I have read through these forums and really became aware of the situation more than before.

If I am only accepted to DO schools should I take a year off and attempt to re apply to MD. LizzyM~71 heavy extracurriculars and first author publications.


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That 10% margin doesn't exist for attrition purposes, per se, but it does give schools some flexibility in terms of overbooking or slow, deliberate class expansion. One must also factor in that a not-insignificant number of students end up repeating a year.
Makes perfect sense.
Honest opinion everyone. I have read through these forums and really became aware of the situation more than before.

If I am only accepted to DO schools should I take a year off and attempt to re apply to MD. LizzyM~71 heavy extracurriculars and first author publications.


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Career goals matter. What are yours. Also do you have a high GPA low mcat or other way around?
 
I want to go internal medicine subspecialize in allergy/immunology

4.0 GPA 507 MCAT


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That is though. You have a 50- 60% shot at MD matriculation. Your state schools should like you unless from a bad state.

I don't think DO is a bad plan for those career goals if you don't get into MD.
 
Hard to imagine the LCME got careless on an avoidable dilemma

It's difficult to explicitly write fair accreditation standards that would include non-profit schools and exclude for-profit ones. I suspect the LCME felt that they would get involved in another protracted legal battle if they denied CNU accreditation on the grounds of its for-profit status. A more reasonable way to accomplish a similar goal is, as I said, to raise the bar on the financial requirements such that a free-standing, for-profit medical school is not an enticing investment.

Lawper said:
Also does the LCME approve mergers between med schools? Is there a separate regulatory process that the 2+ schools need to meet to merge?

A merger would definitely need LCME inspection and approval.
 
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That is though. You have a 50- 60% shot at MD matriculation. Your state schools should like you unless from a bad state.

I don't think DO is a bad plan for those career goals if you don't get into MD.

From Ohio, maybe have a shot. Hasn't looked good thus far. Was accepted to OU heritage college early and might have to go that route.


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From Ohio, maybe have a shot. Hasn't looked good thus far. Was accepted to OU heritage college early and might have to go that route.


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If it makes you feel any better, my aunt went to OUHCOM and is an allergist (she went peds --> allergy fellowship)
 
From Ohio, maybe have a shot. Hasn't looked good thus far. Was accepted to OU heritage college early and might have to go that route.


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From Ohio, maybe have a shot. Hasn't looked good thus far. Was accepted to OU heritage college early and might have to go that route.


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You would have to retake the MCAT. 29 on the old scale is a though score for most private MD schools and oos candidates to state schools .Your GPA is great.your Mcat is a standard deviation below the matriculant median.
 
You would have to retake the MCAT. 29 on the old scale is a though score.... your Mcat is a standard deviation below the matriculant median.

where did you get the data for matriculant medians

table A-16 shows matriculant mean being 31.4 and standard deviation being 3.9 for 2015-2016 year. Or more generally, a 31 average and 4 standard deviation. being a standard deviation below the matriculant median would mean that the matriculant median is a 33-34.

but to address the matter on-topic, i think OP is still fine for Ohio schools and maybe a few other low tier MD schools as long as he applies broadly. a 29 isn't a deal breaker. a 27 or below is. retaking a 507 is a bit risky.

It's difficult to explicitly write fair accreditation standards that would include non-profit schools and exclude for-profit ones. I suspect the LCME felt that they would get involved in another protracted legal battle if they denied CNU accreditation on the grounds of its for-profit status. A more reasonable way to accomplish a similar goal is, as I said, to raise the bar on the financial requirements such that a free-standing, for-profit medical school is not an enticing investment.

@Bold why is this? i thought for-profit schools could be a major conflict of interest, as the school admins would prioritize more heavily on shareholder interests than education

then again, as has been pointed out before, US is a litigious country. everyone loves to sue for whatever reasons. but your suggestion is pretty good but i thought that was implicitly implemented seeing that there weren't any for-profit MD schools before CNU

A merger would definitely need LCME inspection and approval.

and i guess the same is true for a medical school splitting into two?
 
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where did you get the data for matriculant medians

table A-16 shows matriculant mean being 31.4 and standard deviation being 3.9 for 2015-2016 year. Or more generally, a 31 average and 4 standard deviation. being a standard deviation below the matriculant median would mean that the matriculant median is a 33-34.

but to address the matter on-topic, i think OP is still fine for Ohio schools and maybe a few other low tier MD schools as long as he applies broadly. a 29 isn't a deal breaker. a 27 or below is. retaking a 507 is a bit risky.
I rounded up for mcat to 32 and incorrectly rounded down for SD. *OP is Almost a full SD below. Still would place him/ her in the lower quartile of matriculant MCATs. And probably lower decile of Asians matriculant s for mcat.

oP waiting a year will not magically change OPs chances of matriculation which I stated between 50-60. Which is what OP was asking.
 
I rounded up for mcat to 32 and incorrectly rounded down for SD. *OP is Almost a full SD below. Still would place him/ her in the lower quartile of matriculant MCATs. And probably lower decile of Asians matriculant s for mcat.

oP waiting a year will not magically change OPs chances of matriculation which I stated between 50-60. Which is what OP was asking.

acceptance rates depend on the school (and the state) in question though, which is why i think he has best chances with his state schools.

funny thing is OP can improve the MCAT by exactly two points* and his aggregated national acceptance rate shoots up to 74%!

*two points in the event that the school averages multiple MCAT scores
 
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