Cheating Allegations

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efle

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Then again it looks like one of those easy plug-n'-chug problems where you don't need to show more than a handful of steps. I'm guessing the solution manual took a similar approach
I still wouldn't buy that there was not a single difference in what steps were shown, order of variables in expressions, etc across multiple answers. But this is the kind of thing profs/TAs either catch when it is graded, or find when they go back and look through your work. Something must have happened at the end of semester to make the prof suspect OP and go back to confirm. Doubt we have the whole story.

OP why don't you post the full set of accusations. The more info you provide the more likely someone will have a piece of advice.

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deleted393595

I still wouldn't buy that there was not a single difference in what steps were shown, order of variables in expressions, etc across multiple answers. But this is the kind of thing profs/TAs either catch when it is graded, or find when they go back and look through your work. Something must have happened at the end of semester to make the prof suspect OP and go back to confirm. Doubt we have the whole story.

OP why don't you post the full set of accusations. The more info you provide the more likely someone will have a piece of advice.

Most likely. But having been in a crappy situation exactly like this, I am more than willing to give the OP the benefit of the doubt.
 
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ProspectiveKidd

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Actually, the exact same thing happened to me in another class. Professor thought I copied from the solution manual because of "similar" errors, but I hadn't.
Such a clever smokescreen ;)


I know youre joking, but thats the kind of circumstantial evidence the prof. seems to be going on, given the information we have. There is not proof that the OP copied this. Allegations are simply alleged.
 
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deleted393595

Such a clever smokescreen ;)

If you ever became a professor @efle, you'd have a sqrt(-1) rating on ratemyprofessors.com 'cause you don't have chill. You won't be getting the chili either. :p

I know youre joking, but thats the kind of circumstantial evidence the prof. seems to be going on, given the information we have. There is not proof that the OP copied this.

+1. Would help to see 1 and 2 on that list though
 

efle

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I know youre joking, but thats the kind of circumstantial evidence the prof. seems to be going on, given the information we have. There is not proof that the OP copied this.
Personally I'd need to see the soln manual entries and several problems to judge. If it's down to every freaking detail (like soln manual across many problems always shows exact same steps, same order of variables, same missing radicals, same typos, etc) is sufficient to me.
 
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deleted393595

Personally I'd need to see the soln manual entries and several problems to judge. If it's down to every freaking detail (like soln manual across many problems always shows exact same steps, same order of variables, same missing radicals, same typos, etc) is sufficient to me.

Tbh, if I were the professor, I wouldn't care. *****s that cheat are only digging their own grave, and are going to get screwed over very very badly down the road. There is no circumventing the laws of karma
 

efle

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If you ever became a professor @efle, you'd have a sqrt(-1) rating on ratemyprofessors.com cause you don't have chill. You won't be getting the chili either. :p



+1. Would help to see 1 and 2 on that list though
If I were a professor I'd never be stupid enough to expect "don't use the solution manual you can find in two second online" to actually prevent cheating in my class! But yeah I have zero chill for cheaters. That said I would also need more evidence than we've seen here, like multiple problems and a glance at the soln manual version. But I'm guessing this is based on a lot more than swapping an 8 for 9 in a two step problem.

Tbh, if I were the professor, I wouldn't care. *****s that cheat are only digging their own grave, and are going to get screwed over very very badly down the road. There is no circumventing the laws of karma
Passing the buck bro
 
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deleted393595

If I were a professor I'd never be stupid enough to expect "don't use the solution manual you can find in two second online" to actually prevent cheating in my class! But yeah I have zero chill for cheaters. That said I would also need more evidence than we've seen here, like multiple problems and a glance at the soln manual version. But I'm guessing this is based on a lot more than swapping an 8 for 9 in a two step problem.

Possibly. OP needs to be honest about what else the professor has against him

Passing the buck bro

#LazinessProblems
 

JustAPhD

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Tbh, if I were the professor, I wouldn't care. *****s that cheat are only digging their own grave, and are going to get screwed over very very badly down the road. There is no circumventing the laws of karma

Actually with enough angular momentum you can circumvent just about anything.
 
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ac62994

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Take an F and retake. Or donezo.
 
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Norelio

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this is a classic example of the prof having a pwoer trip
 
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studentdocftw

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Sigh..these cheating scandals are becoming more and more common as of late. I'll just copy and paste my post from the cell phone one with a slight change. What are you guys going to do about it? Hit me with an IA?

Time to move on. Mistakes happen, dreams fade away, but that doesn't mean you can't go on to a lead a full, meaningful and enjoyable life (please don't say medicine is the only field that can make you feel..err..complete). Look into other pursuits that interest you. On a side note, I'm curious how severe the penalty will be, so feel free to update us on the final verdict. If by chance you get off, count yourself lucky and refrain from taking the easy route again.
 
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ProspectiveKidd

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Its pretty damn stupid to have a class with the answers in the book if you get an ****ing IA for using it anyways. If the OP is cruising his way through the class this way then he would bomb the final anyways. I think most professors would view things similarly.
 
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terra330

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Its pretty damn stupid to have a class with the answers in the book if you get an ****ing IA for using it anyways. If the OP is cruising his way through the class this way then he would bomb the final anyways. I think most professors would view things similarly.
It's a dumb policy for sure. Past high school, practice problems should be for your own benefit and not have to be turned in or count for a grade.
 
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enchantediris

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It's a dumb policy for sure. Past high school, practice problems should be for your own benefit and not have to be turned in or count for a grade.

There will always be policies in life that you don't like because you think that they're dumb. Mandatory attendance, for example, seems to be a particularly hot issue around here. However, if it's expected that you turn in homework for a grade or attend every class, then complain all you want, but at the end of the day if you don't do these things then you'll get a lower grade than you wanted. (And you would deserve it, dumb policy or not.)
 
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DokterMom

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Unless the professor explicitly says that s/he doesn't care if you come to class or not, I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that if you care about your grades, you actually SHOW UP for the class most of the time, and preferably don't sit in the very back row. As someone who has taught before, I am offended when people don't show up, or do show up but then don't pay attention; and it annoys me when those same people then come to me later with questions on topics that were clearly (IMO) explained during the class. If they then go on score well on tests, it doesn't actually help.

I'm suggesting that the professor probably did have it in for the OP to some degree, but that this also is a direct result of the OP's choices. Nothing says "I don't give a duck" quite like skipping the professor's class and disregarding his/her explicit instructions about not using the solution manual to solve problem sets.

Time for a "big slice of humble pie with grovel sauce."
 
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Bsch1951

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Unless the professor explicitly says that s/he doesn't care if you come to class or not, I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that if you care about your grades, you actually SHOW UP for the class most of the time, and preferably don't sit in the very back row. As someone who has taught before, I am offended when people don't show up, or do show up but then don't pay attention; and it annoys me when those same people then come to me later with questions on topics that were clearly (IMO) explained during the class. If they then go on score well on tests, it doesn't actually help.

I'm suggesting that the professor probably did have it in for the OP to some degree, but that this also is a direct result of the OP's choices. Nothing says "I don't give a duck" quite like skipping the professor's class and disregarding his/her explicit instructions about not using the solution manual to solve problem sets.

Time for a "big slice of humble pie with grovel sauce."
Don't hate on the back row
 
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JustAPhD

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Unless the professor explicitly says that s/he doesn't care if you come to class or not, I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that if you care about your grades, you actually SHOW UP for the class most of the time, and preferably don't sit in the very back row. As someone who has taught before, I am offended when people don't show up, or do show up but then don't pay attention; and it annoys me when those same people then come to me later with questions on topics that were clearly (IMO) explained during the class. If they then go on score well on tests, it doesn't actually help.

I'm suggesting that the professor probably did have it in for the OP to some degree, but that this also is a direct result of the OP's choices. Nothing says "I don't give a duck" quite like skipping the professor's class and disregarding his/her explicit instructions about not using the solution manual to solve problem sets.

Time for a "big slice of humble pie with grovel sauce."

Was about to mention that.

Maybe this will be a valuable teaching moment for others. The relationships you make with your professors actually count for more than you think (especially at smaller colleges)! It doesn't matter if you believe the prof is a bad lecturer, if you blatantly do not go to any of the lectures you are putting yourself behind the 8-ball for situations like this. Had the OP went to class, contributed, and shown an effort I honestly don't think this thread exists.
 
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lalex

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Was about to mention that.

Maybe this will be a valuable teaching moment for others. The relationships you make with your professors actually count for more than you think (especially at smaller colleges)! It doesn't matter if you believe the prof is a bad lecturer, if you blatantly do not go to any of the lectures you are putting yourself behind the 8-ball for situations like this. Had the OP went to class, contributed, and shown an effort I honestly don't think this thread exists.
Really? The professor could just be a dick because it seems like he does this often. Lists out every question and how they cheated. I doubt that a decent professor would go out of his way to hurt someone who didn't show an interest in the class, the student's exams would reflect that.

Sorry, but if the professor sucks and the book is a better tool, I will not waste my time by going. It's not a sign of disrespect, it's logical. As we speak I am missing my Physics class. Nice professor, terrible lecturer.
 

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JustAPhD

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Really? The professor could just be a dick because it seems like he does this often. Lists out every question and how they cheated. I doubt that a decent professor would go out of his way to hurt someone who didn't show an interest in the class, the student's exams would reflect that.

Sorry, but if the professor sucks and the book is a better tool, I will not waste my time by going. It's not a sign of disrespect, it's logical. As we speak I am missing my Physics class. Nice professor, terrible lecturer.

While I can agree it may be logical, I bet a lot of professors would take offense to a student not showing up for any class. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just saying you're running the risk of stuff like this happening. If OP went to class and contributed my guess is that the professor speaks to the OP in person about this matter first before he or she goes straight to the disciplinary board.


In the end, you want professors that are going to fight for you not against you. Not going to any lectures is a good way to tip the scale towards the latter. That's all I meant.

Edit: Obviously this is geared towards smaller colleges/lectures. If your physics class has 300 people in it this doesn't pertain to you so much. I may be biased, I went to a small undergrad where my physics class had 25 people and the professor knew if you missed.
 
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lalex

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While I can agree it may be logical, I bet a lot of professors would take offense to a student not showing up for any class. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just saying you're running the risk of stuff like this happening. If OP went to class and contributed my guess is that the professor speaks to the OP in person about this matter first before he or she goes straight to the disciplinary board.


In the end, you want professors that are going to fight for you not against you. Not going to any lectures is a good way to tip the scale towards the latter. That's all I meant.

Edit: Obviously this is geared towards smaller colleges/lectures. If your physics class has 300 people in it this doesn't pertain to you so much. I may be biased, I went to a small undergrad where my physics class had 25 people and the professor knew if you missed.

True, I just doubt this particular professor would care. That's why I asked for OP's exam scores, though.

I just think this professor does this every semester. Says not to use the solutions, then assigns lots of problems with errors (there aren't even that many in my book), then gets them in trouble.
 
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LuluLovesMe

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Some professors don't care what your homework looks like, if you worked with others on it or even if you straight up copied from the solutions manual; all they care about is how you perform on the test. Others are very strict with homework like your professor. You really need to know what you can and can't do for each particular class. So either you neglected to check the homework policy or you knowingly broke it. Either way, this reeks of poor judgement.

The second mistake you made was to come to SDN and lie to us about it. I'm willing to give you advice nomatter your situation or what mistake you made. Why would you lie?

I think you still can fix this. You've just made this whole thing a lot harder for yourself.

Your next steps are as follows.

1.) Contact your professor. Admit your mistake and apologize genuinely. Tell him you are willing to take responsibility for your actions and ask him what consequences you are facing. Don't ask him to reduce the punishment. Tell him about your aspirations and ask him for advice to help you through the process and express interest in taking his course again the right way. There's a small chance this might change his mind about pursuing an IA against you. It's a hassle for the professor too so I don't think they want to do it unless you give them a compelling reason to.

2.) If he still wants to pursue the IA, find out as much as you can about the trial/appeal process and what you can do. If it's only 1-2 instances they can prove it probably happened, but not beyond a reasonable doubt. If it was 3+ instances, you're gonna get the IA.

3.) If you get the IA, you'll need to hold off on applying for at least 2 years and show some sort of change in character through your activities in that time.
 

TBV

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Mandatory attendance is a load of ****. Let's not get this twisted you are not doing me a favor lecturing, you are providing a service and one that I am paying for. If I pay for a service and elect not to utilize it that's on me and provided the learning objectives have been met (exams & assignments) you should get the grade you deserve regardless.
 
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DokterMom

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2.) If he still wants to pursue the IA, find out as much as you can about the trial/appeal process and what you can do. If it's only 1-2 instances they can prove it probably happened, but not beyond a reasonable doubt. If it was 3+ instances, you're gonna get the IA.

This is not a criminal trial, so the criminal burden of proof -- beyond a reasonable doubt -- does not apply. In most academic integrity cases, the standard is the much laxer more likely than not -- which means OP is likely toast.

Really? The professor could just be a dick because it seems like he does this often. Lists out every question and how they cheated. I doubt that a decent professor would go out of his way to hurt someone who didn't show an interest in the class, the student's exams would reflect that.

Of course the professor is going to list every question s/he is accusing the OP of cheating on. S/he is accusing the OP of cheating, and would want to present a full and accurate case to substantiate that accusation. That's not being mean; it's being thorough and professional.

I just think this professor does this every semester. Says not to use the solutions, then assigns lots of problems with errors (there aren't even that many in my book), then gets them in trouble.

And if the professor wants his/her students to NOT use the solution manual, assigning the problems where the SM is known to be wrong seems like the most logical way to enforce that policy.
 
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lalex

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Of course the professor is going to list every question s/he is accusing the OP of cheating on. S/he is accusing the OP of cheating, and would want to present a full and accurate case to substantiate that accusation. That's not being mean; it's being thorough and professional.



And if the professor wants his/her students to NOT use the solution manual, assigning the problems where the SM is known to be wrong seems like the most logical way to enforce that policy.
It's just seems clear to me he does this every semester. If he really wanted his students not to use the SM, he would.. not count homework and let the exams speak for how much the students actually practiced. Or he could give quizzes or make up problems himself.

Then again, the problems seem like plug and chug. If his exams are similar to his homework, maybe he should actually make exams that require thought than trying to catch those who didn't do the homework.

I think he does this on purpose and is just as lazy as the students that he tries to catch.
 

LuluLovesMe

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It's just seems clear to me he does this every semester. If he really wanted his students not to use the SM, he would.. not count homework and let the exams speak for how much the students actually practiced. Or he could give quizzes or make up problems himself.

Then again, the problems seem like plug and chug. If his exams are similar to his homework, maybe he should actually make exams that require thought than trying to catch those who didn't do the homework.

I think he does this on purpose and is just as lazy as the students that he tries to catch.

The professor could be lazy or malicious, but that still doesn't help OP's situation at all. The policy was laid out and he broke it.
 
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lalex

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The professor could be lazy or malicious, but that still doesn't help OP's situation at all. The policy was laid out and he broke it.
True, but what does that mean? He said it in class or is it on the syllabus? If he just said it, would that still be a violation?
 

LuluLovesMe

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True, but what does that mean? He said it in class or is it on the syllabus? If he just said it, would that still be a violation?

I'd think if he just said it in class, then it would depend on if class attendance was mandatory.
 

DokterMom

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I'd think if he just said it in class, then it would depend on if class attendance was mandatory.

So hypothetically,
  • If class attendance is not mandatory
  • And the professor only stated the rule in class
  • The OP shouldn't be held accountable for breaking it?
Come on. Isn't it fairly common knowledge that copying the answers to homework problems out of the solution manual is cheating? At least it was in my elementary school...
 
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maxwell_edison

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IDK like let's be honest, you probably did cheat. But the professor using this one tiny instance from homework is ridiculous.

Was 1.09 rounded up from 1.08xxxx? Maybe that's how you got 1.08, I do that all the time by accident.

I always had trouble with the stupid electronic physics homework for this reason. Wouldn't take my correct answers, where I prepared everything algebraically before solving, then rounding. Had to work with my classmates to figure out _which_ wrong answer it wanted.


Actually, the exact same thing happened to me in another class. Professor thought I copied from the solution manual because of "similar" errors, but I hadn't. My errors were because I used part of the parameters from Part 1 for Part 2 rather than those given in the solution manual.

Also, I ended up skipping a lot of steps because 1) I started doing that 5 hour long HW 1 hour before class, 2) My calculator could do most of it and because 3) I'm extraordinary lazy and often skip a lot of steps showing work.

Anyways, I ended up having to write a 1 page long email with 10+ bullet points explaining the above, and going piece-by-piece through the evidence. My saving grace was also that I did my entire HW in pen with a lot of work scratched out because of errors on my part, which was proof that I didn't just copy it straight from the solution manual.


I'd suggest you do some statistical analysis. There are a limited number of methods to solve a problem, and a limited number of incorrect ways to solve a problem. If the _author_ of the book made mistakes in the solution manual, it's not convincing that you, a lowly undergrad, could not have possibly made the mistakes that a book-writing professor did. Especially if it is something like forgetting a square-root.

I always run everything on my calculator. Always have. My handwriting is terrible, much easier to keep everything in place. Then I would copy the equations/work when I have the answer. There is a clear failure point in that process (the copying of the equations, hurriedly, because you already solved the question, and it's homework, so I don't care).

Fight this tooth and nail. Hire a lawyer now.
 

luvall

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108 is seen more frequently in life than 109, maybe that can be a reason why you made that mistake.
108 is number of beads on buddhist/hindu mala used for chanting. it is a sacred number. I can't think of any other reason why both you and the solution manual author made the very same mistake.
 
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LuluLovesMe

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So hypothetically,
  • If class attendance is not mandatory
  • And the professor only stated the rule in class
  • The OP shouldn't be held accountable for breaking it?
Come on. Isn't it fairly common knowledge that copying the answers to homework problems out of the solution manual is cheating? At least it was in my elementary school...

I'm just trying to help see if there's any way out of this for the OP. Yes, it's pretty common knowledge to me but it may not be for everyone.
 
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lalex

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So hypothetically,
  • If class attendance is not mandatory
  • And the professor only stated the rule in class
  • The OP shouldn't be held accountable for breaking it?
Come on. Isn't it fairly common knowledge that copying the answers to homework problems out of the solution manual is cheating? At least it was in my elementary school...
No? Lots of people google problems and even post on here and sites like Y!A.

And like someone mentioned, homework is a group effort. My professors encourage working together and make it very known if an assignment is to be done alone.
 

GrapesofRath

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No? Lots of people google problems and even post on here and sites like Y!A.

The difference is the professor stated clearly you cant use the syllabus at all. It's like if a professor gives a take home test and tells you you cant use any outside resources but you do anyway and they catch you.

Now, I will say this type of policy is an incredibly poor look for a professor. Much worse than even requiring mandatory attendance which IMO reflects poorly on a professor. You're too lazy/dont feel like making your own practice problems so you just copy the ones from the book and say "you cant use the solution manual readily available"? Please. You can put the issues of morals/doing what's right aside to realize how bad that reflects on a professor. It's not much different than a professor giving back exams to students every year, reusing exam questions but telling people "You cant use my old exams from previous students as reference to study from".

But like I said above, rules are rules. They were broken. And it's rather obvious there is more to this story than the OP is leading on. It's almost certainly not just an issue of one simple calculation in a long problem in a problem set having many problems being questionable.
 
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lalex

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The difference is the professor stated clearly you cant use the syllabus at all. It's like if a professor gives a take home test and tells you you cant use any outside resources but you do anyway and they catch you.

Now, I will say this type of policy is an incredibly poor look for a professor. Much worse than even requiring mandatory attendance which IMO reflects poorly on a professor. You're too lazy/dont feel like making your own practice problems so you just copy the ones from the book and say "you cant use the solution manual readily available"? Please. You can put the issues of morals/doing what's right aside to realize how bad that reflects on a professor. It's not much different than a professor giving back previous exams, reusing exam questions but telling people "You cant use my old exams from previous students as reference to study from".

But like I said above, rules are rules. They were broken. And it's rather obvious there is more to this story than the OP is leading on. It's almost certainly not just an issue of one simple calculation in a long problem in a problem set having many problems being questionable.
I understand, my take home exams have large red font stating "TO BE DONE ALON blah blah blah" and it's an exam. I'm not saying OP is right, I'm just trying to think of how he could possibly get away without an IA and maybe just an F?
 

GrapesofRath

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I understand, my take home exams have large red font stating "TO BE DONE ALON blah blah blah" and it's an exam. I'm not saying OP is right, I'm just trying to think of how he could possibly get away without an IA and maybe just an F?

Honestly avoiding an IA will come down to
a) how much they actually cheated. I served as one of many members on my schools academic judiciary committee as a UG for 2 years. We dealt with academic dishonesty cases and I saw how they were dealt with even if I didnt have a huge influence at all. A case where it is only 1 part of a problem in a long problem set looking questionable would get laughed out the room at my school and our committee. The case would get thrown out in 2 seconds. It would take at least several examples of this. Guessing from what Lawper has shown, I think there's a good chance that's the case.
b) Beg and plead and cry and show anything you can to get the professor to just give you an F for the course. Many professors are generous and reasonable people with little desire to ruin people's careers even when they have the chance to. At many schools and in many instances, things like these never even reach the dean because the professor agrees to just sweep it under the rug if the student agrees to an F. That's probably the OP's best move but it'll require a drastic change in outlook and mentality from what they've shown here.
 
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JustAPhD

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108 is seen more frequently in life than 109, maybe that can be a reason why you made that mistake.
108 is number of beads on buddhist/hindu mala used for chanting. it is a sacred number. I can't think of any other reason why both you and the solution manual author made the very same mistake.

I'm sure the disciplinary committee will agree.


I think there's a reason why OP hasn't come back.
 
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luvall

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Hi everyone,

I go to a prestigious college on the East Coast.
I recently received my grades and they were excellent, but my physics grade was "NA." I thought this was strange, but the next day the professor email blaming me for Honor Code violation, specifically claiming that the errors present in the solution manual are also seen in my homework. Due to course policy, this is a violation because we were told not to use the manual. However, I haven't used a solution manual for that class in my life! I am not guiltily by any means. I did not use the internet to find answers either.

Anyways, what makes me **** bricks is that I began my med school application cycle. Getting Institutional Action right now will just bomb me. I always felt that the professor disliked me, but he is "well reputed." He did suck at lecturing, so I made my point not to go to lectures and instead studying physics all by myself. I think this issue is personal of many levels. YET it still does not explain why some errors match up. I ****ing have NO clue. So WHAT am I supposed to do to help myself? What can I say? The hearing is next week.

Obviously saying "I didn't do it." is not a strong argument/

Please help out guys


in life we see or even write 108 multiple times, rarely see or write 109, this can be a result of careless error on both your part and the solution manual author. in my opinion this is not conclusive proof of cheating.
 

lalex

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in life we see or even write 108 multiple times, rarely see or write 109, this can be a result of careless error on both your part and the solution manual author. in my opinion this is not conclusive proof of cheating.
This was the third instance the error of OP's homework matched the SM and there were probably more. Also, 1.09 was rounded down from 1.09xxx and not up from 1.08xxx.
 

candbgirl

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Much of the final outcome will depend on OP owning the issue and changing a really bad attitude. I wonder what OP did in the first place to make the professor take particular notice of everything OP did in the class. What professor has time to be this involved and/or vindictive. As we have all said-there is way more to this story.
 
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andybshaker

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OP, help us help you. We need more information. You can PM me if you'd like.

I am a member of the disciplinary committee at my school and my job is to answer the following question: Is it more likely than not, given the evidence, that you cheated? University disciplinary committees do not use the "beyond reasonable doubt" standard.

Now, I am one of the more lenient members of the committee, especially in cases like this because:
A) I believe that all of us have done something similar to this (i.e. getting help from friends on homework, finding an answer online, etc.) and I am not going to ruin someone's academic career over something I could see myself doing.
B) I believe that for an infraction like this, scaring the bejesus out of somebody is punishment enough to ensure that they will never do it again. If we were talking about cheating on a final or stealing a test, it would be a different story, but we're not.

That being said, I would vote that based on only one example, the professor does not have above 50% certainty that you cheated. However, if there is any more evidence like this, it would be extraordinarily difficult to convince anyone, including me, that you did not cheat.

I wish you the best of luck, and I hope that this mistake doesn't end up having drastic consequences.
 
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ProspectiveKidd

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Oh pre-allo. Some things never change.


We don't know whether he did or he didn't, but his future is on the line. It's feasible that this was some freak accident like ElCapone experienced himself. I have written things down incorrectly (as students often do) and arrived at the correct answer before. There is clearly more to the story but based on what we have, there is no proof. I'm not condoning cheating, I'm just keeping things fair. You're willing to destroy someone's life over something you can't be certain of?
 
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