Cheating Allegations

[efle]

The vast majority of undergrad colleges in my state did not record lectures. The only people that I know that had that sort of tech support went to top 20s or similarly equipped universities. I'd bet that out of the over 4,000 universities in the united states, less than 100 have all lectures recorded. Probably far less.

It's a funny thought since you only need a couple hundred bucks worth of equipment and an internet connection to set the classroom up for years of recording!

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[lalex]

Actually I can watch lectures at double speed, so I don't go to their lecture because I can follow it twice as quickly with a fast video player, then use the extra time to read up on their notes, references, or other sources of my own choosing.

Yes and it makes sense you watch lectures because it's medical school.

But just as you save time watching it 2x, many people save time by using the book. Someone needs to explain to me how a lecture helps when the professor summarizes information in 50 min that will take you 3+ hours to study in detail. IDK..

 

[Mad Jack]

Yes and it makes sense you watch lectures because it's medical school.

But just as you save time watching it 2x, many people save time by using the book. Someone needs to explain to me how a lecture helps when the professor summarizes information in 50 min that will take you 3+ hours to study in detail. IDK..

In undergrad, 90% of a test is understanding the professor and what they want you to know, while 10% of it is understanding the subject.

In medical school, 30% of a test is understanding the professor and what they want you to know, while 70% of it is understanding the board-relevant material.

 

[efle]

Yes and it makes sense you watch lectures because it's medical school.

But just as you save time watching it 2x, many people save time by using the book. Someone needs to explain to me how a lecture helps when the professor summarizes information in 50 min that will take you 3+ hours to study in detail. IDK..

I'd guess the lecture focuses on only certain parts of the material in the book, and those are the parts you most need to know? At least for something like biochem in undergrad, you aren't going to do well on the tests if you just read the textbook. Overwhelming amounts of info with no guidance on what you need to know.

 

[el_duderino]

It's a funny thought since you only need a couple hundred bucks worth of equipment and an internet connection to set the classroom up for years of recording!

Hosting and serving thousands of hours of video per week is not cheap, whether you contract it out or do it in house.

 

[efle]

Hosting and serving thousands of hours of video per week is not cheap, whether you contract it out or do it in house.

Thousands of hours per week? We have like 3 classrooms set up with cameras that are used at different times of day of chem, bio, ochem, physics, biochem, and a couple other big classes. At most it's like 10 hours in a day x 3 days of the week

Unless you mean recording everything like even the 15 person classes

 

[el_duderino]

Thousands of hours per week? We have like 3 classrooms set up with cameras that are used at different times of day of chem, bio, ochem, physics, biochem, and a couple other big classes. At most it's like 10 hours in a day x 3 days of the week

Unless you mean recording everything like even the 15 person classes

I don't know what school you go to. I was just saying it would be hundreds per week for a typical university to record a handful of its most popular lecture-based courses. Is that 10 hours per day total across 3 classrooms (each classroom only used 3 hours a day?) or 10 hours per room per day (90 hours per week)? Sounds like a tiny school. Still, even that is going to cost a good bit of money in equipment, storage, hosting, and management. People tend to significantly underestimate how much the back end of that sort of infrastructure costs. I spent 10 years in IT infrastructure, and a large part of my job was storage and servers. Stuff is not cheap, and neither are the people to run it.

 

[lalex]

In undergrad, 90% of a test is understanding the professor and what they want you to know, while 10% of it is understanding the subject.

In medical school, 30% of a test is understanding the professor and what they want you to know, while 70% of it is understanding the board-relevant material.

Maybe your university. But in general at mine, they would mention something for .1 second then test us on it. I would like to think understanding the professor is the same as understanding the book or else the professor might be making **** up. My Ethics professor did that, but I would worry if my Physics professor does that.

 

[Mad Jack]

Maybe your university. But in general at mine, they would mention something for .1 second then test us on it. I would like to think understanding the professor is the same as understanding the book or else the professor might be making **** up. My Ethics professor did that, but I would worry if my Physics professor does that.

I took courses at four universities and colleges. The rule held true fairly well throughout. Understanding your teacher is far more important than understanding the material in undergrad.

 

[el_duderino]

Maybe your university. But in general at mine, they would mention something for .1 second then test us on it. I would like to think understanding the professor is the same as understanding the book or else the professor might be making **** up. My Ethics professor did that, but I would worry if my Physics professor does that.

Everything is different in medical school. It's glorious. The instructors and administration actually want you to learn the information they're teaching. It's a completely different experience, and really kinda funny.

 

[lalex]

I took courses at four universities and colleges. The rule held true fairly well throughout. Understanding your teacher is far more important than understanding the material in undergrad.

Yeah I took classes at 3 universities. The hardest of the 3 was the one that attendance doesn't matter that much. The other 2 it was just regurgitating what the professor said and not truly learning/understanding the material. I didn't even have to study outside of class. No wonder I got As there without trying and had a good kick in the ass when I got here.

 

[shoal]

This was a long time ago when I was in undergrad. But all of the 200 people who were alleged cheater took Fs and had to retake.

http://thedartmouth.com/2002/01/22/cheating-flap-hits-georgia-tech/

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk

 

[sliceofbread136]

Practicing a PE when you are 8 months away from using it... and wont practice it again formally for 8 months... and two days before an exam is absolutely a waste of time.

Sorry you aren't going to convince me that practicing the most practical thing you learn in preclinical years is a waste of time.

 

[efle]

This was a long time ago when I was in undergrad. But all of the 200 people who were alleged cheater took Fs and had to retake.

http://thedartmouth.com/2002/01/22/cheating-flap-hits-georgia-tech/

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk

Jesus, 10% of the class accused of cheating and they're probably just the tiny minority of idiots that didn't even rearrange anything and left it copied exactly.

"In a written statement, Georgia Tech President Wayne Clough asked for patience as the investigation proceeds and pointed out the national prevalence of cheating, noting a Duke University study that found 75 percent of college students admitted to cheating."

Even pessimist that I am on this topic, I wouldn't have guessed it was that high.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Honestly that 75% number is probably deflated because there is alot of stuff like "working with people on HW" or "having access to other peoples ochem lab reports so you know what to focus on even if you write yours entirely on your own/own words" that many people wouldnt identify with themselves as cheating even though it by the definition is. I have many many many friends who have no problem working together on HW problems to a degree a professor wouldnt approve but who would never ever cheat on an exam. My guess is also this is more rampant at state universities, not top academic private institutions like Duke.

At the same time though, most pre-meds dont ever make it to med school. By and large hoards of the cheaters get weeded out not because they are caught but because they are simply mediocre students. That'll never be enough for some as there will be cheaters who slip through the cracks to med school, but as we've kind of talked about professors often times simply dont enforce the policies stringently enough for their own reasons for better or worse.

 

[LFC85]

I'm not sure I understand how the process works at your school? A professor can make an allegation of cheating and it can stick unless proven otherwise? Nowhere in the civilized world is that considered justice.

OP should have access to a process by which she can prove her innocence. OP should access to a faculty member who can help her with this process, and OP should have a hearing in front of her peers; this is all standard.

 

[JustAPhD]

I'm not sure I understand how the process works at your school? A professor can make an allegation of cheating and it can stick unless proven otherwise? Nowhere in the civilized world is that considered justice.

OP should have access to a process by which she can prove her innocence, innocence which should be assumed unless otherwise proven beyond all reasonable doubt. OP should access to a faculty member who can help her with this process, and OP should have a hearing in front of her peers; this is all standard.

It could simply be that her hooked shaped 9 was re-written as an 8. I can tell you with complete confidence that, as math major, I have carried numerous errors through a paper by misreading my own handwriting. This seems rather

Innocent until proven guilty does not apply to academia.

Right to a fair trail honestly hardly applies to academia.

The professor's email the OP screenshotted started at 3, leading us to believe this was not the only problem that there was this pattern.

 

[lalex]

I'm not sure I understand how the process works at your school? A professor can make an allegation of cheating and it can stick unless proven otherwise? Nowhere in the civilized world is that considered justice.

OP should have access to a process by which she can prove her innocence. OP should access to a faculty member who can help her with this process, and OP should have a hearing in front of her peers; this is all standard.

OP hasn't replied in over 24 hours. OP will probably get a hearing which is probably standard in OP's school. OP's professor simply presented his evidence which is just the first step.

 

[LFC85]

Innocent until proven guilty does not apply to academia.

Right to a fair trail honestly hardly applies to academia.

The professor's email the OP screenshotted started at 3, leading us to believe this was not the only problem that there was this pattern.

At my school, and most schools that I'm aware of, an honor violation must be handed down by a panel of one's peers, not the professor. The professor must report the allegation to an honor committee along with his or her evidence. A hearing is convened, consisting of a panel of the accused's peers, at which point the evidence is presented, and the accused has an opportunity to make a defense.

For example, from UVA:
http://www.virginia.edu/honor/public-summaries/

 

[lalex]

Yes, but at my school, and most schools that I'm aware of, an honor violation must be handed down by a panel of one's peers, not the professor. The professor must report the allegation to an honor committee along with his or her evidence. A hearing is convened, consisting of a panel of the accused's peers, at which point the evidence is presented, and the accused has an opportunity to make a defense.

For example, from UVA:
http://www.virginia.edu/honor/public-summaries/

What is different in OP's case?

 

[efle]

At my school, and most schools that I'm aware of, an honor violation must be handed down by a panel of one's peers, not the professor. The professor must report the allegation to an honor committee along with his or her evidence. A hearing is convened, consisting of a panel of the accused's peers, at which point the evidence is presented, and the accused has an opportunity to make a defense.

For example, from UVA:
http://www.virginia.edu/honor/public-summaries/

I believe OP is having a hearing (unless they're a troll ofc)

 

[LFC85]

What is different in OP's case?

Forgive me, I misread OP's first post. I see she is in fact having a hearing.

I'll blame it on this bottle of cab franc...

 

[efle]

Honestly that 75% number is probably deflated because there is alot of stuff like "working with people on HW" or "having access to other peoples ochem lab reports so you know what to focus on even if you write yours entirely on your own/own words" that many people wouldnt identify with themselves as cheating even though it by the definition is. I have many many many friends who have no problem working together on HW problems to a degree a professor wouldnt approve but who would never ever cheat on an exam. My guess is also this is more rampant at state universities, not top academic private institutions like Duke.

At the same time though, most pre-meds dont ever make it to med school. By and large hoards of the cheaters get weeded out not because they are caught but because they are simply mediocre students. That'll never be enough for some as there will be cheaters who slip through the cracks to med school, but as we've kind of talked about professors often times simply dont enforce the policies stringently enough for their own reasons for better or worse.

The 70% seems to include the smaller offenses but the big ones are still popular....

"70% of students admit to some cheating. Close to one-quarter of the participating students admitted to serious test cheating in the past year and half admitted to one or more instances of serious cheating on written assignments"

Interesting other stuff too, honor codes reduce cheating by 1/3 to 1/2.

This really is an interesting bit of research. Most students don't think it's serious cheating to plagiarize a few sentences at a time from web sources and 44% of faculty aware of student cheating never reported it.

For whoever might be interested, try here for summary bit or this document download (compares Duke after implementing an honor code to other code schools and noncode schools).

 

[lalex]

OP PLEASE REPLY. PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

 

[samac]

I keep clicking on this thread waiting for something fun to happen.
COME BACK OP IT'LL BE FUN

 

[andybshaker]

OP: Moral of the story is, avoid an IA at all costs, or you're donezo.

 

[lalex]

K OP logged in. OP didn't defend herself. OP is guilty.

Case closed.

 

[DokterMom]

I agree with @GrapesofRath that there should be some alternative short of the academic and career "death penalty" that is the academic integrity IA -- something more than a slap on the wrist, but less than career-execution that could be used more widely, something less black and white that reflects the varied shades of gray involved in cheating.

 

[maxwell_edison]

A lawyer cannot solve these problems. In most cases they will not even be able to speak in a hearing. It is a private matter.

One still needs to prepare for any hearing, and establish an argument. If a person wants to prove that they didn't cheat (steal, etc), they need to make a convincing argument. Same reasons lawyers are involved in company negotiations, and employment disciplinary procedures. They make sure the bases are covered, and are trained in debate. My uncle is an employment lawyer, and he does stuff like this all the time. The usual goal of a lawyer is to _avoid_ litigation. Like in one case he represented a woman who was going to be fired after failing a random drug test for coke. They had been clean for well over a year, and had passed their pre-employment (urine) drug test. The advantage of a lawyer involved is that the lawyer picked out that the woman had very long, curly hair. He then helped her make the cohesive argument that the hair-test showed conduct from well before she was hired, and she remained employed. There of course were future courses of action should she have been fired (sex discrimination due to long hair, race discrimination due to slower growth rate of african american hair), but the ideal outcome is for the person to just be left alone. "speak softly, and carry a big stick"

Well I think it's not that they'd help OP at the hearing, it's that they'd help build a nice threat of successfully suing to remove the IA + damages should they return a guilty verdict

 

[JustAPhD]

I agree with @GrapesofRath that there should be some alternative short of the academic and career "death penalty" that is the academic integrity IA -- something more than a slap on the wrist, but less than career-execution that could be used more widely, something less black and white that reflects the varied shades of gray involved in cheating.

Wouldn't that be a F for the course or maybe an F for your homework grade?

Both of the above do indeed happen, I've seen individuals almost in this same situation receive a 0% on the HW portion of their final grade due to cheating such as the OP's. In this situation that's what I wish the professor would have done. Say HW is worth 5% of your final grade, I think that's punishment enough for this, but that's just my opinion.

 

[xc_stallion92]

op pls reply

 

[lalex]

Wouldn't that be a F for the course or maybe an F for your homework grade?

Both of the above do indeed happen, I've seen individuals almost in this same situation receive a 0% on the HW portion of their final grade due to cheating such as the OP's. In this situation that's what I wish the professor would have done. Say HW is worth 5% of your final grade, I think that's punishment enough for this, but that's just my opinion.

Yeah, professors do it all the time. The other day my professor yelled at someone for wandering eyes and she got a 0 on that assignment. I feel for OP, I bet most people have done something like this without getting caught let alone an IA.

 

[yourigagari]

A story about cheating

My physics prof gave us a take home exam and she asked us to use the powerpoints and the book (with he solution guide) to help us but avoid everything else.

5 students (including me) and who, by chance, were the only ones who ended up with an A in the class didn't get their grades back. She told the class that the ones who didn't get the grade back need to see her ASAP as the last problem's solution was impossible to resolve without using the internet (why give it then if it's impossible to resolve?).

Us, the 5 students, have independently used the solution in the BOOK where a similar problem (not the same but gives us a hint on how to approach the problem) was given and we ended up having the right answer.

She accused us of cheating at first but once she understood her mistake, she appologized.

BUT, after that, she stopped giving take home exams

 

[lalex]

A story about cheating

My physics prof gave us a take home exam and she asked us to use the powerpoints and the book (with he solution guide) to help us but avoid everything else.

5 students (including me) and who, by chance, were the only ones who ended up with an A in the class didn't get their grades back. She told the class that the ones who didn't get the grade back need to see her ASAP as the last problem's solution was impossible to resolve without using the internet (why give it then if it's impossible to resolve?).

Us, the 5 students, have independently used the solution in the BOOK where a similar problem (not the same but gives us a hint on how to approach the problem) was given and we ended up having the right answer.

She accused us of cheating at first but once she understood her mistake, she appologized.

BUT, after that, she stopped giving take home exams

lol see. that's a ridiculous instance of "you used a source I told you not to with no proof".

 

[tori150150150]

Hi All,

Thanks for feedback. But today I saw the professor, explained everything to him, and was let off the hook.
Thus is the update. Thanks again! Life is good.

 

[Lannister]

Hi All,

Thanks for feedback. But today I saw the professor, explained everything to him, and was let off the hook.
Thus is the update. Thanks again! Life is good.

Well, that was anticlimactic.
Congrats tho!

 

[lalex]

Hi All,

Thanks for feedback. But today I saw the professor, explained everything to him, and was let off the hook.
Thus is the update. Thanks again! Life is good.

Congrats! You should be a lawyer though. Getting him to change his mind after preparing the proof is impressive.

 

[Glandzburg]

Troll game strong OP, nice.

 

[avgn]

llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[GrapesofRath]

I agree with @GrapesofRath that there should be some alternative short of the academic and career "death penalty" that is the academic integrity IA -- something more than a slap on the wrist, but less than career-execution that could be used more widely, something less black and white that reflects the varied shades of gray involved in cheating.

There absolutely should but will there ever be? I seriously doubt it. Talking to people on my committee about it and other professors there are many people not comfortable with the message being sent from that. While it's a strawman to say "we're saying some kind of cheating is ok" by doing this this perspective was rather prevalant amongst a number of people I talked to. The mere perception that some will get from such a policy "making some forms of cheating acceptable" and the backlash it can generate is why so many didnt see it as a worthwhile endeavor.

And this says nothing about how whether or not IA's are lethal isnt really dependent on the school; it's dependent on the med school. There are people on the committee I know of who are pretty willing to give IA's for small things under the logic "It gets expunged when they graduate, as long as they dont do it again theyll be fine and this is just a warning basically" not realizing how incorrect that is. As long as it has the title "Academic IA" there is still always likely going to be a stigma to it to ADCOMs unlike anything else such as even a DUI or battery, even if it is over something rather forgivable IMO like putting an answer on your friends clicker for them while they are in the bathroom. The professors I know who wont give IA's unless it is something extreme like stealing an exam use this as a big part of why they dont pursue IA's. If we really want to change how IA's are dealt with and pursued, it'll require a change from everybody; ADCOMs, schools, professors, judiciary committees, students. Everyone.

 

[Planes2Doc]

Aside from solutions manuals (which I never actually saw before), Chegg (used to be called Cramster) is quite popular. It provides step-by-step solutions for problems from a large variety of text books. If a physics class uses an online-based homework system such as Mastering Physics that only needs the final answer inserted, it can be a Godsend for certain students. I remember reading a thread a few years back where a student told their professor about this, and ended up getting an IA themselves! Some people consider it cheating, but some don't. Generally speaking, if you use it simply to copy and paste your work into homework, then you will most likely screw yourself over come exam time. But if you take the time to understand how exactly the problem is solved, then this can be very helpful, especially if your professor isn't the best at explaining things. It can do a hell of a lot better job explaining than a textbook! If you are lucky enough to have a professor that allows cheat sheets on exams, then something like Chegg can help you do very well. Of course you'll have people debate whether it is ethical or not.

Unfortunately, after searching, I couldn't find the thread about the student who told their professor about it. I did find a very brief one from a few years ago about using the service. Now these members are pretty far along in their medical education journey, so it comes to show that you can use something like this and still be a perfectly good doctor.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/has-anyone-used-cramster-com.760203/

 

[yourigagari]

Aside from solutions manuals (which I never actually saw before), Chegg (used to be called Cramster) is quite popular. It provides step-by-step solutions for problems from a large variety of text books. If a physics class uses an online-based homework system such as Mastering Physics that only needs the final answer inserted, it can be a Godsend for certain students. I remember reading a thread a few years back where a student told their professor about this, and ended up getting an IA themselves! Some people consider it cheating, but some don't. Generally speaking, if you use it simply to copy and paste your work into homework, then you will most likely screw yourself over come exam time. But if you take the time to understand how exactly the problem is solved, then this can be very helpful, especially if your professor isn't the best at explaining things. It can do a hell of a lot better job explaining than a textbook! If you are lucky enough to have a professor that allows cheat sheets on exams, then something like Chegg can help you do very well. Of course you'll have people debate whether it is ethical or not.

Unfortunately, after searching, I couldn't find the thread about the student who told their professor about it. I did find a very brief one from a few years ago about using the service. Now these members are pretty far along in their medical education journey, so it comes to show that you can use something like this and still be a perfectly good doctor.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/has-anyone-used-cramster-com.760203/

I used chegg for instrumental analysis (analytical chem) but it wasn't cheating since we had solution manuals (sometimes they're not too clear). It's also a great place to rent books.

I do believe that I have used it sometimes for physics (second semester), my prof was terrible and started teaching 5 years ago so pretty new and awful. My evaluation was: please go practice with high school students who don't pay for school

 

[GrapesofRath]

Aside from solutions manuals (which I never actually saw before), Chegg (used to be called Cramster) is quite popular. It provides step-by-step solutions for problems from a large variety of text books. If a physics class uses an online-based homework system such as Mastering Physics that only needs the final answer inserted, it can be a Godsend for certain students. I remember reading a thread a few years back where a student told their professor about this, and ended up getting an IA themselves! Some people consider it cheating, but some don't. Generally speaking, if you use it simply to copy and paste your work into homework, then you will most likely screw yourself over come exam time. But if you take the time to understand how exactly the problem is solved, then this can be very helpful, especially if your professor isn't the best at explaining things. It can do a hell of a lot better job explaining than a textbook! If you are lucky enough to have a professor that allows cheat sheets on exams, then something like Chegg can help you do very well. Of course you'll have people debate whether it is ethical or not.

Unfortunately, after searching, I couldn't find the thread about the student who told their professor about it. I did find a very brief one from a few years ago about using the service. Now these members are pretty far along in their medical education journey, so it comes to show that you can use something like this and still be a perfectly good doctor.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/has-anyone-used-cramster-com.760203/

As the always say snitches get stiches. The value of Chegg comes in becuase as much as nobody likes to admit it; we all find behind schedule in our classes to some extent. Every professor recommends people study say 5-10 hours a week or 3 hours for every 1 hour of lecture right after class. Nobody does that in undergrad with relatively few exceptions or for extremely brutal classes. It's just not practical, especially with other commitments. In fact, there are many who will tell you if you are legitimately studying 6+ hours a day in undergrad you are doing something wrong and will need to change your study habbits and efficiency for med school. Think of how many classes you had in college where by and large the majority of your prep was within the few nights before the exam? In hindsight, its alot. And that's where Chegg comes in; it often just isnt feasible to keep up with the weekly learning schedule your one professor in a 3 credit class in your 19 credit schedule wants you to and be able to put in the 10 hours a week your professor wants you to.

Ultimately at the end of the day if you are going to give HW and assign it for points in a class it should
a) Be rather difficult where working with people(not copying off people) should be encouraged and often necessary. I had many classes like this
b) Have so little weight for a class grade that it's just not worth enforcing stringent policies for.
c) Should be substituted with quizzes in recitation or at beginning of class. If your goal is to simply hoping to make sure people keep up with the material, quick weekly quizzes in controlled settings get the job done easily.

This idea that a professor is going to be too lazy to give HW that isnt straight out of the book and then assign it for a not so insignificant part of the grade is just a flawed strategy all the way around. None of this says the OP wasnt wrong but it is rather apparent to me what a dunce this professor sounds like basically telling people "your not allowed to use the solution manual because I'm too lazy to come up with problems not from there".

 

[Lawpy]

Hi All,

Thanks for feedback. But today I saw the professor, explained everything to him, and was let off the hook.
Thus is the update. Thanks again! Life is good.

Troll game strong OP, nice.

llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Be optimistic guys. At least we know that OP's physics professor is not only absurdly strict (by idiotically banning solution manuals for homework problems) but also completely clueless if he was easily swayed and couldn't see his own rules being violated. The poor guy wasted all that time writing a list only to be persuaded by a clever lie! What an awesome professor.

 

[Mad Jack]

This is one of the things I love about the MCAT- it serves as at least one major hurdle cheaters have to overcome in the process of getting into medical school. Those who aren't used to not cheating or that cheated a ton adds never learned the material are at a serious disadvantage.

 

[GrapesofRath]

This is one of the things I love about the MCAT- it serves as at least one major hurdle cheaters have to overcome in the process of getting into medical school. Those who aren't used to not cheating or that cheated a ton adds never learned the material are at a serious disadvantage.

In many other countries for various admission purposes, its standardized tests themselves which are given almost all the weight in a decision largely because of factors like this. It's also why due to lack of standardization of GPA and how many variables can influence it so substantially I've been an MCAT>>GPA guy personally when it comes to which I think should be given more weight.

 

[Lawpy]

This is one of the things I love about the MCAT- it serves as at least one major hurdle cheaters have to overcome in the process of getting into medical school. Those who aren't used to not cheating or that cheated a ton adds never learned the material are at a serious disadvantage.

In many other countries for various admission purposes, its standardized tests themselves which are given almost all the weight in a decision largely because of factors like this. It's also why due to lack of standardization of GPA and how many variables can influence it so substantially I've been an MCAT>>GPA guy personally when it comes to which I think should be given more weight.

I was talking to @efle and @Lucca about this previously but I think we can standardize all university-proctored exams by promoting similar MCAT-like conditions, like an examination room with cameras monitoring your performance every second. No cell phones, watches, backpacks etc. allowed and proctors will provide you a pencil and scratch paper. Seems like a nice deal.

 

[GrapesofRath]

I was talking with @efle and @Lucca about this previously but I think we can standardize all university-proctored exams by promoting similar MCAT-like conditions, like an examination room with cameras monitoring your performance every second. No cell phones, watches, backpacks etc. allowed and proctors will provide you a pencil and scratch paper. Seems like a nice deal.

That's all great in theory but how exactly is that going to be done, planned or funded? You really think schools are going to spend that much money on camera's, metal detectors, security systems, advanced proctors etc for every test in a particular school? Not a chance

Ideally the best system to me IMO would be to have multiple standardized exams. Kind of like how there are the SAT's, AP tests and SAT subject tests in high schools. Different standardized tests to analyze different skills and the like. There's enormous grey area in med school admission; some of it such as accounting for an applicants context, ECs etc is necessary. But the degree in variation in trying to account for academic performance such as a GPA from MIT ChemE vs Sociology from State U can be simplified and reduced greatly.

 

[Mad Jack]

I was talking to @efle and @Lucca about this previously but I think we can standardize all university-proctored exams by promoting similar MCAT-like conditions, like an examination room with cameras monitoring your performance every second. No cell phones, watches, backpacks etc. allowed and proctors will provide you a pencil and scratch paper. Seems like a nice deal.

Except that costs a lot of money. Prometric is in business for a reason, and all they do is provide exactly what you describe.

 

[Mad Jack]

That's all great in theory but how exactly is that going to be done, planned or funded? You really think schools are going to spend that much money on camera's, metal detectors, security systems, advanced proctors etc for every test in a particular school? Not a chance

Ideally the best system to me IMO would be to have multiple standardized exams. Kind of like how there are the SAT's, AP tests and SAT subject tests in high schools. Different standardized tests to analyze different skills and the like. There's enormous grey area in med school admission; some of it such as accounting for an applicants context, ECs etc is necessary. But the degree in variation in trying to account for academic performance such as a GPA from MIT ChemE vs Sociology from State U can be simplified and reduced greatly.

I'd be down for that. Scrap grades and make standardized exams for given blocks of a subject, with fluff courses simply pass/fail since they shouldn't matter anyway.