cheating vet students

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bern

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I became aware that one of my classmates cheated on an exam. How despicable! I know we're all under a lot of pressure, but how would it feel to know that your pet's vet or your own doctor cheated in school?

I'm beginning to think it might not be such a rare thing... Anybody else had this experience?

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Last year we had a problem with cheaters. I and three other people in my class witnessed two people cheating. We reported it, but nothing happened because it wasn't witnessed by the prof and it was our word against theirs. Another girl in my class excused herself during a final exam to go to the bathroom. A TA followed her and found her reading her notes. Our school decided that she should repeat the year. You should report it. They may not do anything initially, but they will likely keep a closer eye on the individual to try and catch them in the act.
 
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I heard of a similar situation among an older class of vet students while I worked in the vet school... something about a teacher finding an answer key to the exam s/he had just given. Like it was just laying in the hall outside the classroom or something.

No one was ever caught that I know of, but it certainly did upset and/or piss off a lot of professors and non-cheating classmates. If I saw it, I'd report it. I'm not spending 5 years of my life thinking about vet school every 4 minutes of my waking day (and then dreaming about it sometimes) to have someone cheat once I finally get in.
 
Yeah it happens at my school and nothing is done about it. It happened first year and nothing happened, the same 2 nd. The communication between the professors and deans office is just incredibly bad. For example,students knew to see the professors, not student affairs, if they wanted to leave for Christmas early and then test material got passed along to their friends for the next day. The class behind us has a entire system of people where if people are unprepared for atest, they call in sick and get the jist of the test from their friends. Some of the professors change the test up, like to oral exam, but some don't. The students know.
Not surprisingly, these same students I have caught doing night treatments in the wards drunk (multitple people), not feeding/caring for their animals on blocks they were not interested in, and striking students in anger in the building. Nothing has been done. The worst people I have ever met in my life have been at this vet school. The kicker is when you confront these people, they get super vindictive and make more work for you in some form or another. You can't win if you dont have the administrations backing. The really worrisome kicker is that a couple of these people are gunning for internships and residencys and that is really scary. Some schools need to get their admissions committees in much better shape, because as selective as the vet school process is, some good, hard working people with what the schools consider sub-standard grades are being left out and the profession needs people that care with work ethic and problem solving skills, not a 4.0 obtained by cheating. A kid that has a 2.9 or 3.1 that has never had a D in college and is helping the family dairy should be a lock for vet school over someone with a 3.8 and 200 hours of clinic experience, but that is not the case at SOME schools. My 2cents.
 
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Thankfully, I have yet to encounter this situation in vet school. However, this has happened to me on several occasions (by the same people!) in undergrad. And I was a TA for the class! The prof did not want to report the students because he did not want to ruin their chances for getting in to vet school. In that same class and another by the same prof, we had a problem with plagiarism (again usually the same few people). All he wanted us to do was maybe dock a point or two from the grade if it was a second + offense.

If undergraduate profs don't care about pre-vet students cheating, how can we really expect the profs in vet school to care? The whole thing makes me so angry. :mad:
 
We've got an interesting one:

One chick in my class is ALWAYS, always, always "sick" on the day of the exam.

She waits to study until the night before the exam, can't cram it in, and so calls in "sick" and makes up the exam later in the week so that she can have more time to study for it.

This doesn't affect the rest of the class except that it postpones the receipt of our grades, and the fact that WE don't get extra days to study.

There's no way to prove it to the prof/dean's office, and yet it one of those things that the whole class knows about. How do we know about it? Because she has no problem or hesitation in telling classmates thats what she does. Its bizarre to say the least. Infuriating at best. And definitely some form of cheating.

I'm like just go ahead and drop out already and spare yourself having to do board exams cos there's no way to cram for those.

Worst of it is she's my closest friend in vet school and yet it makes me periodically hate her around exams. :thumbdown:
 
I can't help but think that some way, some how their actions are going to come back to haunt them (and from what I've seen it will). That is what I tell myself when I hear about people like that. It's just unfortunate that they may unjustly take someone else's internship.
 
We've got an interesting one:

One chick in my class is ALWAYS, always, always "sick" on the day of the exam.

She waits to study until the night before the exam, can't cram it in, and so calls in "sick" and makes up the exam later in the week so that she can have more time to study for it.

What happened to the Aggie honor code "An Aggie does not lie, cheat, or steal or tolerate those who do." Did they get rid of that?
 
Honestly? I think they did, sadly enough.
 
I TA in the chemistry department, and I've seen a reported cheating several times. Unless it is my PI who is teaching the class, nothing is done (when it is my PI, he either handles it formally, or handles it when grading lab reports and such (it is amazing how subjective grading can be).

The crazy part, our new Honor Code REQUIRES that I do something about the cheating, usually i get outed as the rat, yet the accused identity is almost never revealed.

For the last 2 years, what I have been doing (and I have received a bit of flack for this) is send an email out, to the student I witnessed cheating, the professor, the dean(s), and the "Honor Code Committee" (the later being a bunch of inept fools). I have to be careful of the contents of such a letter, and I never say 'cheating' but something like

"I witness Mr(s) Jones talking to Mr(s) Smith during an exam on 11/5/08. I cannot prove they were cheater, but now everyone will be retaking that exam"

I then reschedule the exam for EVERYONE to retake. Crazy part, it is a higher level class, not talking Chem or O-chem here. 1 time the class formally complained about my action, and that was the only time the deans ever did ANYTHING about the cheaters.

Not suggesting this course of action, and I am a TA who teaches a class no one else like to teach, but you could always make a fake gmail account, spoof your IP address, (or use public wifi) and send out such an email.

I'm not surprised that cheating happens in vet school, as you guys are only 1 year apart from those I see cheating every year. (no offense, but people who get by undergrad cheating, feel the need to do the same for the rest of their lives).
 
We've got an interesting one:

One chick in my class is ALWAYS, always, always "sick" on the day of the exam.

She waits to study until the night before the exam, can't cram it in, and so calls in "sick" and makes up the exam later in the week so that she can have more time to study for it.

This doesn't affect the rest of the class except that it postpones the receipt of our grades, and the fact that WE don't get extra days to study.

There's no way to prove it to the prof/dean's office, and yet it one of those things that the whole class knows about. How do we know about it? Because she has no problem or hesitation in telling classmates thats what she does. Its bizarre to say the least. Infuriating at best. And definitely some form of cheating.

I'm like just go ahead and drop out already and spare yourself having to do board exams cos there's no way to cram for those.

Worst of it is she's my closest friend in vet school and yet it makes me periodically hate her around exams. :thumbdown:

Frankly, I'm shocked that your school allows that. Our school would not postpone an exam except for a serious, documented illness. If anyone reports cheating it is taken very seriously.
 
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There's no way to prove it to the prof/dean's office, and yet it one of those things that the whole class knows about. How do we know about it? Because she has no problem or hesitation in telling classmates thats what she does. Its bizarre to say the least. Infuriating at best. And definitely some form of cheating.

I would make sure your dean of students knows about this. It may not raise any red flags with each individual instructor because they may not realize she's doing this in every other class. If the administration sees a student is having to make up exams in multiple classes, they'll figure out what's going on ... unless they're totally clueless.
 
This question is not meant as a judgment of you, but out of curiosity:

How are you able to remain close friends with someone who repeatedly engages in behavior that you define as cheating and find to be of questionable morality?



We've got an interesting one:

One chick in my class is ALWAYS, always, always "sick" on the day of the exam.

She waits to study until the night before the exam, can't cram it in, and so calls in "sick" and makes up the exam later in the week so that she can have more time to study for it.

This doesn't affect the rest of the class except that it postpones the receipt of our grades, and the fact that WE don't get extra days to study.

There's no way to prove it to the prof/dean's office, and yet it one of those things that the whole class knows about. How do we know about it? Because she has no problem or hesitation in telling classmates thats what she does. Its bizarre to say the least. Infuriating at best. And definitely some form of cheating.

I'm like just go ahead and drop out already and spare yourself having to do board exams cos there's no way to cram for those.

Worst of it is she's my closest friend in vet school and yet it makes me periodically hate her around exams. :thumbdown:
 
I would make sure your dean of students knows about this. It may not raise any red flags with each individual instructor because they may not realize she's doing this in every other class. If the administration sees a student is having to make up exams in multiple classes, they'll figure out what's going on ... unless they're totally clueless.

Well, you will be shocked and appalled to read this:

I did go to the dean's office, before I even made that first post on here. I told her everything I told y'all, didn't reveal my friend's name, and asked what the possible consequences were.

She was completely baffled by me bringing this to the dean's office. She asked me "Why do you feel you need to get involved in this?" I replied, because this is my friend and I'm not sure she understands the repercussions of her actions, and I wanted to warn her of the consequences before she got caught because I do honestly care.
She said: "Well, it'll be your word against hers. You will have to come up with proof of all the times she has missed a major exam without being actually sick, present the evidence to each individual teacher, and then me, the cheater, and all the professors would have to go before the honor committee to decide what action would be taken. It could be possible that she receives an F per course, or most likely just have to retake each exam, but its up to the professor to decide. She would not get expelled."

She then asked me again why I was bringing this to her. She cautioned me that if I really felt like pursuing this, "it would ruin it for everyone" because then the school policy would have to be changed to require a doctor's note for missing an exam, "and we all know you don't always need to go to the doctors when you're too sick to take an exam."

I was absolutely amazed. The Dean's office discouraged me from reporting her for cheating. Said it would be me against her, and even then I'd be ruining it for everyone if I did.

Honestly I can't believe they hadnt figured it out yet, before I even brought it to their attention. Clueless is an understatement.

In response to runnerDC "How are you able to remain close friends with someone who repeatedly engages in behavior that you define as cheating and find to be of questionable morality?"

I'm sure my postings on this topic make me come off as a goody two shoes, highly moral, straight laced person whose never done anything wrong in my life...but I'm not. How am I able to remain friends? Because I have empathy for her, sincerely. I wish she'd get some freaking counseling, but she refuses - saying "Why should I? I've got you instead. Besides I'm passing all my courses." Which drives me up the wall, but I remember freaking out over exams...just because I've never skipped an exam because I felt unprepared doesn't mean I don't relate to test anxiety. So I feel for her...but not enough to not call her out on her b.s.
But, at times you're right. It does wear on me and get old super fast.
If I can resolve this between me and her, without bringing in the Feds then I will, because I feel that's professional.
I suppose the next step is to threaten her with the termination of our friendship. No one else is friends with her because of this...and I don't know if she realizes this is why.
Its one of those things where you put 140 girls in a room together from 9-5. Everybody knows the vitriole pertaining to the girl, except the girl herself.
 
In that case your dean is not doing her job.

See, here's the thing. By refusing to at least following up on this, the dean is hurting the entire class because in addition to giving her an unfair advantage, she is sending the message that academic integrity and honesty is not taken seriously by the college.

But most of all, she's hurting the cheating student. When you pass a student that hasn't done the work necessary to pass, you may think you're doing the student a favor. But you're not. She needs to learn how to manage her time effectively now, because she's not going to be able to take a sick day every time she's faced with a challenge in the hospital or her career. And if she's incapable of doing the work, the sooner she finds out the better.
 
In that case your dean is not doing her job.

See, here's the thing. By refusing to at least following up on this, the dean is hurting the entire class because in addition to giving her an unfair advantage, she is sending the message that academic integrity and honesty is not taken seriously by the college.

But most of all, she's hurting the cheating student. When you pass a student that hasn't done the work necessary to pass, you may think you're doing the student a favor. But you're not. She needs to learn how to manage her time effectively now, because she's not going to be able to take a sick day every time she's faced with a challenge in the hospital or her career. And if she's incapable of doing the work, the sooner she finds out the better.

Very well said, Bill! :thumbup:
 
I'm in 100% agreement with you, Bill59.

It is a disservice to her. I'm wondering if she'll even make it to graduation if she tanks this badly in the face of pressure, much less make it to the real world. Dealing with client's questions is like having an oral exam everyday.

And I thought the discouraging attitude towards reporting academic dishonesty leaves something to be desired. I figure her reticence may have been because it would tarnish the class's reputation or the school's reputation...I don't know. Thats probably a bit cynical.
 
I think that is terrible!! At Illinois we have an ethics code type thing. It is up to all of us to keep each other honest. If someone notices cheating, it is up to them to report it or they can be brought up to the ethics committee as well. It has seemed to work pretty well. I have not noticed anyone cheating. We even have all of our quizzes, exams, etc passed out to us face-down before class starts. We can finish studying, etc until the prof tells us to put our stuff away. Then we all flip the exams over at the same time.
 
More disgrace:

Apparently the class of 2012 had some problems last week:

3-4 students accused 10-12 other students of cheating, to the Dean's office.
The Dean got pissed off, went down to the classroom auditorium then next day and announced:
"I'm embarrassed by some of your classmates reporting cheating going on. Cheating has never happened at this school before (YEA RIGHT!) and besides, the accusers should sort it out with the accused, NOT bring it to us."

Oh ok, so it is the student body's job collectively to sort out and deal with cheating. I see, right that makes sense, because we don't have other stuff to focus on or anything. Plus, I can see how effective that would be:

"Hey Bobby, hows it goin? You uh, mind not cheating during the next exam?"
"Sure thing!"
"Great, thanks - I'll cya around!!"

And am I taking crazy pills, or were we not required to make an agreement about reporting cheating to higher ups, cos if we didn't - that's considering cheating, and that it would be taken seriously if we did?

What purpose does it serve, for the Dean to yell at the class of 2012 "Don't bring me reports of cheating"? I'm thinking the paperwork of it all threatens her latte time. Man I'm getting cynical.

I'm just thinking, screw it, I'll just make all my exams open book, just blatantly throw open the textbook on my desk with a THUD in front of the whole class, the prof, and just see what happens. I bet I'll be safer than a Slim Fast bar around Oprah.

Why don't we all just start cheating??
 
Wow, Infinivet, I don't even know what to say to that. Maybe I am naive, though I hope not, but I honestly cannot imagine that any of my classmates would cheat. Seriously, it just seems antithetical to who we are as people.

But I do know this: IF one of my classmates was reported to the Dean for suspected cheating, it would be investigated fully and fairly. I have NO doubt that UTKCVM would expel a cheating student if it was proven they had done it.

We actually had an incident a few years back where a student was NOT expelled for cheating, and it made the professor so mad, he took her to court. She ended up leaving of her own volition. I think the current administration would have booted her to begin with. They are all about ethics. In fact, ethics is a HUGE part of our curriculum.

I am sorry you are dealing with such a putz of a Dean. That's mind-blowing. However, karma is a bitch, and come accreditation time, I think there might be more than a few students who are willing to tell the committee what goes on..and I don't think the result will be what the Dean is hoping for.
 
InfiniVet, that blows. I'm sorry that your dean is like that.

We have an honor code and student honor board here. Students are supposed to report others if they are cheating, etc. Then the honor board investigates and an decides whether or not to take it to a trial. The administration pretty much lets the students run this and make the decisions about guilty, not/guilty and the sanctions if found guilty. I think there's flaws in it...and I know for a fact that not everyone gets reported, but the system is there.

Critterfixer, I hate to say it, but I'm sure cheating goes on more than you think. People cheated to get in, they'll cheat to stay in and get out and they'll cheat in real life. I had a nice long chat with a professor about this my first semester because I, like you, feel that cheating is totally against what we as future veterinarians should stand for. But, such is life. *sigh*
 
Critterfixer, I hate to say it, but I'm sure cheating goes on more than you think. People cheated to get in, they'll cheat to stay in and get out and they'll cheat in real life. I had a nice long chat with a professor about this my first semester because I, like you, feel that cheating is totally against what we as future veterinarians should stand for. But, such is life. *sigh*

Though I know you're probably right, I feel the same way as Critterfixer. I am also sure that the administration here would not hesitate to investigate fully into the matter. All exams here are watched pretty closely and some professors have shared students getting caught cheating stories (parasitology's last year was a good one, student kept going to the bathroom during tests, turns out her notes were up there). One of my classmates legitimately had to use the bathroom last year and was told to hold it or turn in her test during one of our classes last year.
 
This is some crazy stuff. Another sad by-product of our litigious society. Administrations are held hostage by the possibility of legal recourse by the accused. :(

Don't get me wrong, everyone should have the chance to defend themselves, but cheating has to be dealt with. Especially in vet school when the future care of patients and the reputation of the profession is at stake.
 
So, out of curiousity...are the schools you guys are talking about on Pass/Fail systems, or are they letter grades? We have a Pass/Fail system here at Washington State and it seems to really help it.
 
So, out of curiousity...are the schools you guys are talking about on Pass/Fail systems, or are they letter grades? We have a Pass/Fail system here at Washington State and it seems to really help it.

Is every class pass/fail?? We have a few pass/fail classes here (mostly the ones where you really can't quantify what we do in the course). Man, facing down the barrel of finals, pass fail sounds like it'd be a dream come true. I'm sure you guys still have to work your tails off, though.
 
Yes, all classes are pass-fail at WSU. We do have class rank though (rank is calculated in each class and then overall class rank is determined by combining individual class rankings with the number of credits each class is worth).
 
Infini: That's distressing, to say the least. I'm glad I don't have to take part of that (well, kind of...still not in vet school lol) but I know a couple people that do. Wonder if they know about it? Will have to ask.

I'm surprised that nothing is done. Cheating in undergrad is a big deal. There was about 18 people expelled from May's (an undergrad class, though) last year for collective cheating on one of those class wide questions using the remotes. Saddening that it's not the same in upper level.


What's even more frustrating is I applied for the class of 2012 and got beat out by a cheater? That kind of miffs me.
 
What's even more frustrating is I applied for the class of 2012 and got beat out by a cheater? That kind of miffs me.

Exactly. Exactly times 1,000. Ugh.
 
That really is terrible. I DO NOT stand for cheating. Even at a young age I didn't tolerate it. Hehe. In elementary school the class was completing an assignment. We were all facing the front and the completed homework tray was in the back of the room. One girl kept blowing her nose in the back of the room. I kind of became suspiscous so I watched her. She proceeded to the tissue box, which was convienently placed by the homework tray, and lifted up the completed assignment sheets while blowing her nose to get the answers. I was so angry that when she sat down I went and blew my nose and then casually moved the tissue boxes to a shelf on the side of the room away from the homework tray. Ha! I was so proud.

But on a more serious note, that is quite disturbing. But in the end she will pay for her poor choices.
 
I agree with DesignerVet, our associate dean of academic affairs at Illinois created an anti-cheating environment during orientation by talking about professional ethics, expectation to monitor one another that kind of set the standard. I think knowing that the administration cares about the issue keeps everyone honest.

I am sorry to hear about some of the posts about administrators that does not want to address the issue. I would try to first talk to you class president about writing a collective letter to the administration outlining the issue (concrete evidence/incidences). If that does not work, I would reflect upon how this is four years that you have committed to intense professional studies to the field of veterinarian medicine, so you can not waste your energy on fixing a broken system. So learn as much as you can, demonstrate your knowledge on the tests and then pass the board and get out of there. My .02 cents.
 
I agree that this is horrible! My undergrad would definitely not put up with cheating. I surely wouldn't want one of my animals going to a cheating vet! They would be the ones to slip your dog the wrong meds and cover their mistakes up. I must say, though, if you are not a good steward of the talents and blessings you are given, they can and often times, will be taken away from you! You reap what you sow. You sow cheating, you'll be cheated down the road. Sorry for the sermon!:D
 
Man, facing down the barrel of finals, pass fail sounds like it'd be a dream come true. I'm sure you guys still have to work your tails off, though.

just to clarify for anyone who is thinking of going to WSU- There are actually three grades- satisfactory, marginal, fail. You can only get so many marginal credits ( I think 5 so if you blow first semester of anatomy, that's that) until you have to go before the academic board and petition to be let back into the curriculum. The grades are determined by percentages and each class has a different standard for what gets a "satisfactory" grade. Usually between 75%-80%.

If you are in the bottom 10% of the class (so, even if you get 93% in a class but the average is high) you get a letter advising you that you need to step it up. It is not uncommon for people to be sent back a year for poor performance in subsequent years. So they tried to take away some of the suicidal levels of stress by taking away the competition for grades, but since you still have class rank and certain percentages to meet all they really did was change the names of the grade without relieving stress or competition. Good times.
 
If you are in the bottom 10% of the class (so, even if you get 93% in a class but the average is high) you get a letter advising you that you need to step it up. .

That's pretty weird because there is always a bottom 10% and you are absolutely right... there is still a bottom 10% even if EVERYONE is acing the class. I don't get it. I was in the bottom 20% of my class my first semester and I got all B's and an A. I was freakin proud and no one cared I was in the bottom 20%. That's just stupid.
 
so... what school are we talking about this occuring at?
 
The upper classmen advised us to "cheat discreetly." I am offended by this, because not only would I not cheat, and I think that it is extremely insulting to me, and others like me who would never do such a thing. Also, it's not as if she just told one or two people quietly, privately. She told the entire class.

Am I foolish to think that we should be above this? That our classes should not be so hard that people cheat? Or am I just naive to think that people don't do this, because I just work my butt off and would never cheat? Perhaps I don't belong in this profession, if these are my colleagues. Maybe I'm just extremely disappointed because I have worked hard for years to get to this point, and it seems as if others have gotten here by unsavory and unfair methods.
 
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I became aware that one of my classmates cheated on an exam. How despicable! I know we're all under a lot of pressure, but how would it feel to know that your pet's vet or your own doctor cheated in school?

I'm beginning to think it might not be such a rare thing... Anybody else had this experience?


I agree with most comments, and I am very sorry that the school authorities are not taken responsibility for it. I had similar experience during my vet school years, which was in another country, but there are dishonest people everywhere indeed.
Also in my school a group of 10 students(buddies+ Gyrlfriends), constantly cheat, had files and files of previous exams etc..
It surprise me when I came to US, and I have been in 3 different schools and realize that the students here also have exam files and cheat as well, so I guess as I said it doesnt matter where are you from, honesty is a rare quality now days.
But anyways those same cheaters in my class were admitted in well known internships/residency programs...I know...sadly....at least my school did take some actions, did not do anything against them, because they were graduating already, but I guess at least will avoid that to happen again..

Along the years as a vet, a vet-student, grad-student..I realize and learn a harsh true, The person that gets the job/reward/credit etc... many times is not the person that deserves...sadly most of the times now days the wicked are victorious. i am not sure why, maybe we are easily deceived, or they are just too good(cheaters/manipulative/fakers/liers)...dammm...I don't know, but the fact is it happens all the time and all I can tell you is to stay true to yourselves, not let yourself corrupt, and i hate having to say that, but sometimes dont get involved, cause it might not do any good besides get yourself in trouble.
If you wanna do something make sure you have other people to back you up as well proof, I found out that going alone in those situations are not the best, and remember that you may not be able to do anything but there is no lie that last forever, basically one day they fall, get caught, big time...lol..seen it happened...

As advice sometimes If you corner the cheaters with some other classmates and tell them you are going to tell somebody(dean) may actually work better, specially If nobody in your school is doing anything about it.

good luck
 
I became aware that one of my classmates cheated on an exam. How despicable! I know we're all under a lot of pressure, but how would it feel to know that your pet's vet or your own doctor cheated in school?

I'm beginning to think it might not be such a rare thing... Anybody else had this experience?


I agree with most comments, and I am very sorry that the school authorities are not taken responsibility for it. I had similar experience during my vet school years, which was in another country, but there are dishonest people everywhere indeed.
Also in my school a group of 10 students(buddies+ Gyrlfriends), constantly cheat, had files and files of previous exams etc..
It surprise me when I came to US, and I have been in 3 different schools and realize that the students here also have exam files and cheat as well, so I guess as I said it doesnt matter where are you from, honesty is a rare quality now days.
But anyways those same cheaters in my class were admitted in well known internships/residency programs...I know...sadly....at least my school did take some actions, did not do anything against them, because they were graduating already, but I guess at least will avoid that to happen again..

Along the years as a vet, a vet-student, grad-student..I realize and learn a harsh true, The person that gets the job/reward/credit etc... many times is not the person that deserves...sadly most of the times now days the wicked are victorious. i am not sure why, maybe we are easily deceived, or they are just too good(cheaters/manipulative/fakers/liers)...dammm...I don't know, but the fact is it happens all the time and all I can tell you is to stay true to yourselves, not let yourself corrupt, and i hate having to say that, but sometimes dont get involved, cause it might not do any good besides get yourself in trouble.
If you wanna do something make sure you have other people to back you up as well proof, I found out that going alone in those situations are not the best, and remember that you may not be able to do anything but there is no lie that last forever, basically one day they fall, get caught, big time...lol..seen it happened...

As advice sometimes If you corner the cheaters with some other classmates and tell them you are going to tell somebody(dean) may actually work better, specially If nobody in your school is doing anything about it.

good luck
 
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