Children of Physicians

[Goro]

Have to seriously disagree with the tone and connotations around this statement .

Do you seriously believe that medical schools should not do research and not contribute to the growth of medical science ?

If medical schools are not required to do research, and advance the medical field, where do you think the progress in the medical field will come from ?

Have you taken the MCAT yet? If not, do watch out for the CARS section.

I made no such statement as you imply.

I simply stated the reality that COCA doesn't require DO schools to engage in research, unlike LCME

Hence, not having to invest in, and support research, allows DO schools to run on far leaner budgets.

I have a lab of my own, thank you.

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[LaughingGas10]

Respectfully, I didn't read anything like that. I'm sure he doesn't think medical schools should not do research. We all can/should agree on that. I read it as merely pointing out the fact that almost universally, DO schools perform far less research and have far less federal research funding than MD schools. Therfore, less money to move around therefore being more reliant on tuition. They do run leaner. They don't own the city blocks of buildings and research wings universities have to maintain . My former school didn't even own their buildings. They leased everything.

"pesky accreditation requirements like research" are not the reason that tons of us, who have spent thousands of countless hours doing medical research are doing it for. It is for the advancement of science and a ray of hope that we will discover something that will benefit mankind and erase human suffering. This is a wrong message to post for premedical students who are beginning their career, to imply that MD school personnel are doing the research only to meet the pesky accreditation requirements.

 

[KnightDoc]

"pesky accreditation requirements like research" are not the reason that tons of us, who have spent thousands of countless hours doing medical research are doing it for. It is for the advancement of science and a ray of hope that we will discover something that will benefit mankind and erase human suffering. This is a wrong message to post for premedical students who are beginning their career, to imply that MD school personnel are doing the research only to meet the pesky accreditation requirements.

... and to generate funding so as to not have to "run lean" or rely on tuition dollars to fund operations!!!!

 

[LaughingGas10]

Have you taken the MCAT yet? If nit, do watch out for the CARS section.

I made no such statement as you imply.

I simply stated the reality that COCA doesn't require DO schools to engage in research, unlike LCME

Hence, not having to invest in, and support research, allows DO schools to run on far leaner budgets.

I have a lab of my own, thank you.

I havent taken the MCAT and dont intend to , since I have been faculty at 4 medical schools already. However, I strongly believe that I will flunk the CARS section (and probably every other section) if I am forced to write the MCAT .

"pesky accreditation requirements like research" are not the reason that tons of us, who have spent thousands of countless hours doing medical research are doing it for. It is for the advancement of science and a ray of hope that we will discover something that will benefit mankind and erase human suffering. This is a wrong message to post for premedical students who are beginning their career, to imply that MD school personnel are doing the research only to meet the pesky accreditation requirements.

 

[r2med]

I don't understand what all the recent posts have got to do with the OP

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I don't understand what all the recent posts have got to do with the OP

After few posts these threads gets diverted to different discussion. You haven't noticed that until now?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

DO schools, which run leaner and aren't bothered by pesky accreditation requirements like research, can and do run off of tuition only.

Isn't true that DO schools have lager class sizes than MD schools?

 

[Angus Avagadro]

"pesky accreditation requirements like research" are not the reason that tons of us, who have spent thousands of countless hours doing medical research are doing it for. It is for the advancement of science and a ray of hope that we will discover something that will benefit mankind and erase human suffering. This is a wrong message to post for premedical students who are beginning their career, to imply that MD school personnel are doing the research only to meet the pesky accreditation requirements.

Looks like we are talking past each other. That's not the message I received when I read that. Sorry you got triggered over it.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Isn't true that DO schools have lager class sizes than MD schools?

Not sure about that. My graduating class had around 200, my wife's was around 250.

 

[r2med]

After few posts these threads gets diverted to different discussion. You haven't noticed that until now?

Some people have a lot of time on hand to do just that to several posts. Most of them are fun reading though

 

[LaughingGas10]

Not sure about that. My graduating class had around 200, my wife's was around 250.

Yes, exactly the point that @EdgeTrimmer is trying to make.

Mayo clinic which is one of the most recognized names in medicine has 3 large campuses which are considered medical destinations for medical care, Rochester, MN, Phoenix, AZ and Jacksonville, FL with tons of academic physicians. They believe they can only train 100 medical students per year in a legitimate fashion.

Lake Eric College of Medicine. a relatively unheard of entity in medicine, started off in Erie , PA (medium sized city with limited clinical resources) and now has proliferated to 4 campuses across the country in Bradenton, FL, Elmira, NY, seton hall and matriculates close to 900 students per year.

This is the effect of deregulation of educational requirements. Most of these campuses have very limited clinical research, and probably very little translational research exposure to their students even if they wish to get involved, allowing them to open these many schools. Cultivating a medical infrastructure to provide quality medical education, "is not just about leasing buildings", it is about the getting the right culture, academic curiosity and teaching that the students can thrive in, and then blossom into whatever they hope to be.... majority will be clinicians, some of them will be thought leaders, pharmaceutical researchers, academic giants, and heading government branches of medicine. Limiting the students exposure to all of these options is curtailing them of their dreams.

I dont know that we can celebrate this as "schools being lean and knocking off the pesky research requirements". Having students retain the scientific curiosity of research and in effect mandate some research requirements on school is necessary, to have future physicians understand the impact of research in clinical medicine, and also be able to interpret scientific data when presented to them.

Where will we develop the next CRISPer technology, editing the genetic code to cure genetic mediated diseases, allow the refining of immunotherapy to cure "incurable" cancer, find the basic science research needed to develop vaccines for the next pandemic, develop bioscience personnel who can teach medical ethics and decision making to the next clinician ? Inspiring medical students to be part of this is critical in their development, one of my medical schools, the very first day, we would walk with them on a walk of fame, with 17 pictures/stories of nobel laureates from our institution who changed the face of medicine, the other medical school I was in, walked them below an awning which said the very first heart transplanter walked below this and performed the first cardiac transplant in the world. Are these not awe inspiring research experiences that medical students should get exposed to, and in turn allow them to dream and reach the clouds ?

Medical education is not just about creating a factory to develop human machines which can earn 300 thousand dollars per year. Nothing wrong with being a clinical physician, which is what 80% of the medical students will do, but medical schools need to be able to allow medical students to have all options available to them during their training and give them a broad exposure.

 

[DNAJB6]

Would children of physicians be better physicians - very likely, so they may actually be favored by adcoms.

This is the most absurd thing I have ever read on SDN. Being from a physician family does not ensure that you will be an excellent doctor. While some of them will undoubtedly be wonderful doctors and human beings, there are many more that won't and will have a sense of entitlement, be arrogant, and grow up into adult spoiled brats that throw temper tantrums when they don't get their way. It all depends on how one is raised. I certainly wouldn't stereotype all children of physicians. In other words it cuts both ways. The same can be said of descendants of non-physicians.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Yes, exactly the point that @EdgeTrimmer is trying to make.

Lake Eric College of Medicine. a relatively unheard of entity in medicine, started off in Erie , PA (medium sized city with limited clinical resources) and now has proliferated to 4 campuses across the country in Bradenton, FL, Elmira, NY, seton hall and matriculates close to 900 students per year.

Where will we develop the next CRISPer technology, editing the genetic code to cure genetic mediated diseases, allow the refining of immunotherapy to cure "incurable" cancer, find the basic science research needed to develop vaccines for the next pandemic, develop bioscience personnel who can teach medical ethics and decision making to the next clinician ? Inspiring medical students to be part of this is critical in their development, one of my medical schools, the very first day, we would walk with them on a walk of fame, with 17 pictures/stories of nobel laureates from our institution who changed the face of medicine, the other medical school I was in, walked them below an awning which said the very first heart transplanter walked below this and performed the first cardiac transplant in the world. Are these not awe inspiring research experiences that medical students should get exposed to, and in turn allow them to dream and reach the clouds ?

Medical education is not just about creating a factory to develop human machines which can earn 300 thousand dollars per year.

Not aware of developments at Erie. Reminds me my trip to Erie 20+ years ago when my spouse interviewed for residency during a blizzard. Only thing I like at that place was Blueberry pancakes at the B&B we stayed

I see serving the underserved is the only criteria being pushed by some adcoms and they say research is overrated. I understand there needs to be balance between research and serving people but premier institutions shouldn't dilute their focus on research in the name of social justice.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

This is the most absurd thing I have ever read on SDN. Being from a physician family does not ensure that you will be an excellent doctor. While some of them will undoubtedly be wonderful doctors and human beings, there are many more that won't and will have a sense of entitlement, be arrogant, and grow up into adult spoiled brats that throw temper tantrums when they don't get their way. It all depends on how one is raised. I certainly wouldn't stereotype all children of physicians. In other words it cuts both ways. The same can be said of descendants of non-physicians.

so which kids will be better doctors, physicians kids or so called helicopter/tiger parents kids?

 

[KnightDoc]

so which kids will be better doctors, physicians kids or so called helicopter/tiger parents kids?

Maybe kids who are self motivated, and are not responding to undue influence or pressure from their parents, regardless of what they do for a living.

 

[DNAJB6]

so which kids will be better doctors, physicians kids or so called helicopter/tiger parents kids?

In many (not all) cases, there is no difference except perhaps more money. The power of parents to damage their children isn't limited to one demographic.

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

Would children of physicians be better physicians - very likely, so they may actually be favored by adcoms.

Yes, because we want more physicians who grew up in a 300k+ family environment, and have zero understanding of what it's like to actually be poor. If it were up to me, I'd force medical schools (and colleges) for that matter to have a median student income of under $100k.

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

so which kids will be better doctors, physicians kids or so called helicopter/tiger parents kids?

Neither. I'd take a bottom of the barrel DO as a family physician that grew up, and faces the same type of hardships that I do over a trained HMS/mass gen doc that had his way to the top be paved by his/her physician parents.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Yes, because we want more physicians who grew up in a 300k+ family environment, and have zero understanding of what it's like to actually be poor. If it were up to me, I'd force medical schools (and colleges) for that matter to have a median student income of under $100k.

Not every 300k+ family is same and probably lot of physicians came from poor or middle class background and got to 300K with hard work (not inheritance). some of them (us) teach those values to the kids. Not every poor person knows value of hard work, so there is no one size fits all.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Neither. I'd take a bottom of the barrel DO as a family physician that grew up, and faces the same type of hardships that I do over a trained HMS/mass gen doc that had his way to the top be paved by his/her physician parents.

Interesting. Do you have any plans to involve in admissions?

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Yes, exactly the point that @EdgeTrimmer is trying to make.

Mayo clinic which is one of the most recognized names in medicine has 3 large campuses which are considered medical destinations for medical care, Rochester, MN, Phoenix, AZ and Jacksonville, FL with tons of academic physicians. They believe they can only train 100 medical students per year in a legitimate fashion.

Lake Eric College of Medicine. a relatively unheard of entity in medicine, started off in Erie , PA (medium sized city with limited clinical resources) and now has proliferated to 4 campuses across the country in Bradenton, FL, Elmira, NY, seton hall and matriculates close to 900 students per year.

This is the effect of deregulation of educational requirements. Most of these campuses have very limited clinical research, and probably very little translational research exposure to their students even if they wish to get involved, allowing them to open these many schools. Cultivating a medical infrastructure to provide quality medical education, "is not just about leasing buildings", it is about the getting the right culture, academic curiosity and teaching that the students can thrive in, and then blossom into whatever they hope to be.... majority will be clinicians, some of them will be thought leaders, pharmaceutical researchers, academic giants, and heading government branches of medicine. Limiting the students exposure to all of these options is curtailing them of their dreams.

I dont know that we can celebrate this as "schools being lean and knocking off the pesky research requirements". Having students retain the scientific curiosity of research and in effect mandate some research requirements on school is necessary, to have future physicians understand the impact of research in clinical medicine, and also be able to interpret scientific data when presented to them.

Where will we develop the next CRISPer technology, editing the genetic code to cure genetic mediated diseases, allow the refining of immunotherapy to cure "incurable" cancer, find the basic science research needed to develop vaccines for the next pandemic, develop bioscience personnel who can teach medical ethics and decision making to the next clinician ? Inspiring medical students to be part of this is critical in their development, one of my medical schools, the very first day, we would walk with them on a walk of fame, with 17 pictures/stories of nobel laureates from our institution who changed the face of medicine, the other medical school I was in, walked them below an awning which said the very first heart transplanter walked below this and performed the first cardiac transplant in the world. Are these not awe inspiring research experiences that medical students should get exposed to, and in turn allow them to dream and reach the clouds ?

Medical education is not just about creating a factory to develop human machines which can earn 300 thousand dollars per year. Nothing wrong with being a clinical physician, which is what 80% of the medical students will do, but medical schools need to be able to allow medical students to have all options available to them during their training and give them a broad exposure.

Couple things.

Isn't true that DO schools have lager class sizes than MD schools?

Not sure about that. My graduating class had around 200, my wife's was around 250.

I'm a DO and my wife is an MD. I attended the largest DO school in the country at the time, and we were only number 10 in class enrollment. If you look at the list below, half of the medical schools with the largest enrollment are MD schools. So to generalize that DO schools have larger class size is not quite accurate. Lots of MD schools have multiple campuses as you point out.

You write a lovely piece on the merits of bench and clinical research. No one said research was not necessary and everyone can agree on its importance. You seem to be the only one who thinks anyone "implied" the difference. Not everyone can perform cancer research on a campus with 100 students in a class. You of all people are familiar with how research labs are financed, along with the politics and drama amongst the colleagues. There simply is not enough money for federal funding of all of the wonderful projects. Not every center can be a center for liver transplants or an MD Anderson cancer center. So in an ideal world, your thoughtful remarks would be valid. There is a doctor shortage, and a research funding shortage. I am acutely aware of both as my niece is a PhD researcher at a west coast university and has regaled me with stories about how fierce the competition is for grant money. My son just matched in an FM fellowship with several job offers already. BTW, you could not get my niece to go to med school with a gun to her head. She's not, as she describes herself, a people person. I'm sure the converse is true for medical students. My wife, N=1, was an elite student, accepted at every med school she applied to. She had about zero interest in research, but is a respected specialist in our region. When socializing with her large group at fundraisers, I am universally told by her colleagues she is the best (specialist), they know. We also need great clinicians. Our students have lectures on medical statistics, study design, and ethics. Ones interested in research find opportunities at local universities. My students have matched well at some good institutions. Some who I have written letters for are at JHU, U Maryland, Mayo Jax, U Wisconsin, Penn State, Pitt, U Fla, Emory, to name a few.
Not every medical school training future doctors can be a monolithic university with multiple buildings and research labs. With the advent of Covid and online learning, you are going to see a stark change in medical education in the future. Fewer faculty will be required. As far as having a hall of fame inspiring students to reach for the stars, I'm not sure how many were inspired to do so, I'm sure some were. My wife and I trained at places like that. Yet, it didn't do anything to make many others humble. As a fellow, I would question the medical students. Quite often they would not know the answer, but they certainly were never in doubt about the answer they proffered . That kind of attitude would cause them to forfeit their lunch to me.
I believe I have said all I need to say on this topic. Thank you for the collegial conversation.

Cheers!

 

[HopeP]

I see same thing being discussed from 2 different angels. in my layman terms, in Army, not everyone can be a 4 star Major General, you need soldiers too to fight the battle. A battle just can't be win with one entity alone.

 

[Goro]

Couple things.



I'm a DO and my wife is an MD. I attended the largest DO school in the country at the time, and we were only number 10 in class enrollment. If you look at the list below, half of the medical schools with the largest enrollment are MD schools. So to generalize that DO schools have larger class size is not quite accurate. Lots of MD schools have multiple campuses as you point out.

You write a lovely piece on the merits of bench and clinical research. No one said research was not necessary and everyone can agree on its importance. You seem to be the only one who thinks anyone "implied" the difference. Not everyone can perform cancer research on a campus with 100 students in a class. You of all people are familiar with how research labs are financed, along with the politics and drama amongst the colleagues. There simply is not enough money for federal funding of all of the wonderful projects. Not every center can be a center for liver transplants or an MD Anderson cancer center. So in an ideal world, your thoughtful remarks would be valid. There is a doctor shortage, and a research funding shortage. I am acutely aware of both as my niece is a PhD researcher at a west coast university and has regaled me with stories about how fierce the competition is for grant money. My son just matched in an FM fellowship with several job offers already. BTW, you could not get my niece to go to med school with a gun to her head. She's not, as she describes herself, a people person. I'm sure the converse is true for medical students. My wife, N=1, was an elite student, accepted at every med school she applied to. She had about zero interest in research, but is a respected specialist in our region. When socializing with her large group at fundraisers, I am universally told by her colleagues she is the best (specialist), they know. We also need great clinicians. Our students have lectures on medical statistics, study design, and ethics. Ones interested in research find opportunities at local universities. My students have matched well at some good institutions. Some who I have written letters for are at JHU, U Maryland, Mayo Jax, U Wisconsin, Penn State, Pitt, U Fla, Emory, to name a few.
Not every medical school training future doctors can be a monolithic university with multiple buildings and research labs. With the advent of Covid and online learning, you are going to see a stark change in medical education in the future. Fewer faculty will be required. As far as having a hall of fame inspiring students to reach for the stars, I'm not sure how many were inspired to do so, I'm sure some were. My wife and I trained at places like that. Yet, it didn't do anything to make many others humble. As a fellow, I would question the medical students. Quite often they would not know the answer, but they certainly were never in doubt about the answer they proffered . That kind of attitude would cause them to forfeit their lunch to me.
I believe I have said all I need to say on this topic. Thank you for the collegial conversation.

Cheers!

Indeed.

What the wise Angus is also obliquely referring to is that just as there are different modes of teaching medical students (active vs passive learning, TBL, PBL etc) there are different theories as to who and what the grads of med schools should be and do.

We more commonly refer to this as "mission". Mayo has for close to a century had a particular view of what a Mayo grad should be like and do. Ditto the Stanford/Harvard class schools, who seek to train the leaders in academic medicine.


DO schools have a mission to train Primary Care doctors. My students aren't aiming to cure HIV disease, they want to see HIV+ patients and help them.

As HopeP pointed out, not everybody can be Mayo. We're happy to be XCOM.

We all agree that research is important. Quoting the wise DrMidlife on research: “you've preferably had some exposure to research so you can be convinced that Wakefield used malicious dirtbag methods and is not the savior of the world's children.”

 

[LaughingGas10]

Indeed.

What the wise Angus is also obliquely referring to is that just as there are different modes of teaching medical students (active vs passive learning, TBL, PBL etc) there are different theories as to who and what the grads of med schools should be and do.

We more commonly refer to this as "mission". Mayo has for close to a century had a particular view of what a Mayo grad should be like and do. Ditto the Stanford/Harvard class schools, who seek to train the leaders in academic medicine.


DO schools have a mission to train Primary Care doctors. My students aren't aiming to cure HIV disease, they want to see HIV+ patients and help them.

As HopeP pointed out, not everybody can be Mayo. We're happy to be XCOM.

We all agree that research is important. Quoting the wise DrMidlife on research: “you've preferably had some exposure to research so you can be convinced that Wakefield used malicious dirtbag methods and is not the savior of the world's children.”

I agree in substance about what @Angus Avagadro said and probably with most of what you are saying. It was enlightening to hear his views on the medical education process, which are somewhat diametrically opposite of mine, but very valid points and an excellent discourse.

My posting was not against the DO schools. There are some outstanding DO schools-- PCOM, DMU-COM to name a couple of them , who are as good or better than some of the MD schools.

My posting was meant to bring to light, the For Profit DO schools which are rapidly proliferating across the country (opening at an alarming rate of about 1-2 per year), with sub standard education, without a mission, other than to make money. Couple of these schools have fees ranging upto 70 K per year, with very limited scholarships for economically disadvantaged students. They do not have enough academic full time physicians, good enough hospital postings, lack a structured curriculum, not enough exposure to clinical cases that a medical student needs to be trained on. It is not just the lack of research facilities, but rather the lack of facilities in general. This is a minority of all the DO schools (maybe 7-10 of the 45 schools) , and these comments dont probably apply to your DO institution. These institutions , end of the day will hurt the DO image, and land up being counter productive.

I have a question, which may help to shed light on this

1. "My students aren't aiming to cure HIV disease, they want to see HIV+ patients and help them." . The issue is the lack of disclosure of this to the medical students who are entering these schools. How many of the newer for profit DO schools are really disclosing this fully to the entering class ?

Does a bright eyed young kid like @veer_ who is entering one of these schools, with the intention of reducing infant mortality , know that he will probably never train or do an educational clinical rotation with a perinatologist or a high risk obstetrician (because this school didnt want to spend money on one ) who could explain him how to reduce infant mortality rate in one of these schools ?

 

[Goro]

My posting was meant to bring to light, the For Profit DO schools which are rapidly proliferating across the country (opening at an alarming rate of about 1-2 per year), with sub standard education, without a mission, other than to make money. Couple of these schools have fees ranging upto 70 K per year, with very limited scholarships for economically disadvantaged students. They do not have enough academic full time physicians, good enough hospital postings, lack a structured curriculum, not enough exposure to clinical cases that a medical student needs to be trained on. It is not just the lack of research facilities, but rather the lack of facilities in general. This is a minority of all the DO schools (maybe 7-10 of the 45 schools) , and these comments dont probably apply to your DO institution. These institutions , end of the day will hurt the DO image, and land up being counter productive.

Agree 100000% on this.

Just to reiterate, my comment on "pesky research requirements" was an observation, not an endorsement on what COCA values in what a DO school should have, as a comparison to what LCME values.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

We finally seems to agree that research valuable and we shouldn't parse too much into each others words My kid (current cycle applicant) has very strong research experience and I am sensitive to research is overrated comments He is having great cycle despite not having no gap year or hundreds if not thousands of service hours.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I see same thing being discussed from 2 different angels. in my layman terms, in Army, not everyone can be a 4 star Major General, you need soldiers too to fight the battle. A battle just can't be win with one entity alone.

Can some aspire to be a 4 star general or like in other site go for risk aversion and aim to be a solider only?

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

Interesting. Do you have any plans to involve in admissions?

If I did, I would cut poorer applicants a lot more slack, and this is coming from someone that considers themselves financially privileged.

Also, I'm sorry but I can't just read something like this and not reply. This is such a holier than thou attitude, I worry about your future patients.

You've just taken the n=2 or 3 cases that come around here and there and applied them to an entire demographic. You can't be serious. And referring to your previous post where you decided to essentially gatekeep higher education and professional training in terms of income, that is the most blindsided view I have read in a while on here. First of all, as aforementioned, many who have crawled up the ranks to earn those salaries came from nothing or nearly nothing. Take my own father, he didn't have electricity until age 14. Also, a large portion of our higher income (which would pretty much prevent me from gaining admission to your wonderful 100k or less medical school) goes to my father's struggling family abroad. Yes, there are many who comes from well-off families and continue the tradition. To your point about 'being poor', you're really suggesting that one needs to have grown up and lived in a certain environment to empathize with and help those that come from it?? Guess only those who grew up around family members with cancer can become oncologists! The social determinants of health are huge and I recognize that, but coming from poverty doesn't make one a more benevolent person automatically. I honestly wonder how many people that came from poverty and escaped it actually give back. I would not say that they all do. Furthermore, a to-do to gain admission to medical school is to demonstrate service and compassion to those less fortunate. Anyone who works to get in will have taken time to understand and work with people who are from the exact backgrounds you seem to consider a one-way ticket to perfection in medicine. There is a thing called volunteering and all applicants, regardless of how much their dad's last paystub had on it, do it.

I'm going to get flamed for this lol, but yeah. Happy to discuss this further.

It doesn't do it automatically, of course not, but I have seen first hand the difference your upbringing makes in the way you treat patients, and I am sorry but volunteering the typical 100hrs at a soup kitchen does not give enough perspective to treat patients that are not well off. Does this mean that a physician of poor upbringing will treat poorer patients better all the time always? Of course not, but there is an understanding and connection that you simply do not get by growing up in a suburban house with a white picket fence. And frankly, I would take an oncologist who dealt with a cancer of someone close in their family over one that didn't. Certain types of empathy cannot be built without experiencing hardships yourself. Volunteering of course exists, but it's a lot easier to have 1000 hours of it, and fund your own non profit when your dad's pay stubs pay your credit card bills, insurance, et cetera.

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

This has to be a joke lol

Also my 2c on this research mess: research is great, yes. Doing academic medicine is the reason I am pursuing an MD instead of a DO or PA/Rn and other medical fields. My research and wish to apply it to patients in real-time is my personal drive. That being said, to imply that schools that are not research-heavy are producing physicians who are somehow less competent or important is ridiculous. Forgive me if I misread that long preach incorrectly.

Any medical student understands the value of research developments whether they do it themselves or not. In a country where many of our rural residents and inner-city citizens have mediocre or nonexistent access to care, I am happy to see schools with 900+ accomplished medical students who are mostly interested in getting out of school and providing primary care. I was born in America but my parents come from a third world developing nation and I visit yearly. I have seen minimal access to ANY sort of medical care, research-heavy or not. I am glad we are pumping out more doctors who are interested in just giving their patients care; hopefully, our rural infant mortality rate catches up to Canadian and European levels soon.

It's not a joke when you consider that it's 1.5x the household income of an average American. If your parents make enough to put you over the median, you should show academic achievement that is indicative of your privilege.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

If I did, I would cut poorer applicants a lot more slack, and this is coming from someone that considers themselves financially privileged.

What kind of slack are we talking? much lower GPA/MCAT scores, no need for volunteering/shadowing etc.. Do you propose quotas based on income?

 

[LaughingGas10]

It's not a joke when you consider that it's 1.5x the household income of an average American. If your parents make enough to put you over the median, you should show academic achievement that is indicative of your privilege.

Most medical schools already have this to some reasonable extent. If you look at the MSAR, the average medical school does take around 10% of their accepted students from disadvantaged status students, and a significant percentage of students from the URM (under represented minority).

Most of the accepted students in the class in the <10th academic percentile of MCAT/GPA scores probably come from these two subsets.

In addition the AAMC has made significant efforts to fund programs such as SHPEP to foster scientific interest and training for the underpriviliged, and other summer programs (diversity/inclusion programs) to help with shadowing/clinical opportunities through the medical schools.

 

[Goro]

If I did, I would cut poorer applicants a lot more slack, and this is coming from someone that considers themselves financially privileged.


It doesn't do it automatically, of course not, but I have seen first hand the difference your upbringing makes in the way you treat patients, and I am sorry but volunteering the typical 100hrs at a soup kitchen does not give enough perspective to treat patients that are not well off. Does this mean that a physician of poor upbringing will treat poorer patients better all the time always? Of course not, but there is an understanding and connection that you simply do not get by growing up in a suburban house with a white picket fence. And frankly, I would take an oncologist who dealt with a cancer of someone close in their family over one that didn't. Certain types of empathy cannot be built without experiencing hardships yourself. Volunteering of course exists, but it's a lot easier to have 1000 hours of it, and fund your own non profit when your dad's pay stubs pay your credit card bills, insurance, et cetera.

The road traveled can be a very valuable EC.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

but there are different roads

 

[HopeP]

Can some aspire to be a 4 star general or like in other site go for risk aversion and aim to be a solider only?

I don't think it is about traditional vs direct BS/MD discussion.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I don't think it is about traditional vs direct BS/MD discussion.

It’s not but your 4 star general analogy sounds like that.

 

[HopeP]

It’s not but your 4 star general analogy sounds like that.

My point is research and primary care/service are necessary elements for medical field, just having only one or the other won't be suffice for society. Anyhow get back to topic of thread.

 

[deleted1025488]

Just a general question for adcoms: is it a blatant assumption that physician kids are privileged or born into wealth, to word it simply?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

My point is research and primary care/service are necessary elements for medical field, just having only one or the other won't be suffice for society. Anyhow get back to topic of thread.

That I agree, but thread got diverted because of importance of research but adcoms and attendings resolved that issue so we can step back

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

What kind of slack are we talking? much lower GPA/MCAT scores, no need for volunteering/shadowing etc.. Do you propose quotas based on income?

Whatever slack it takes to make the median medical school matriculant have a combined parental income of no more then 2x the national average. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect more from those that had the resources to accomplish more frankly.

 

[Goro]

Just a general question for adcoms: is it a blatant assumption that physician kids are privileged or born into wealth, to word it simply?

Yeah, pretty much. If you were to look at our parking lot, you'd see why.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Whatever slack it takes to make the median medical school matriculant have a combined parental income of no more then 2x the national average. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect more from those that had the resources to accomplish more frankly.

That's a very simplistic view. Will you apply same rule to residency also?

 

[Maimonides1]

Medicine after all is about connections and opportunities..!
Growing in medical household can offer some advantages into grooming strong premed applicant.. but it all depends, If you come out as an inspired and self-directed mission driven applicant that will be a plus..,
But if you appear to be Tigered” in and came cross as being arrogant, immature or carry a sense of entitlement..,
then you are a toast!

After all, It’s estimated that about 20-25% of Med school Matriculants comes from medical households or are physician’s children!!

If all things equal.., the upper vote will go to disadvantaged applicants who were able to overcome their adversities to reach this privileged competitive field..,

A measured and well thought proliferation in Medical Education/ Research is greatly necessary for the future
well-being of society.., but definitely not at the expense of high quality standards and without the good funding to carry on our public health missions and institutions..!!

 

[DNAJB6]

It's not a joke when you consider that it's 1.5x the household income of an average American. If your parents make enough to put you over the median, you should show academic achievement that is indicative of your privilege.

I don't think that's a fair statement (i.e. that academic ability is indicative of privilege). There are advantages in having built in career counseling, research/clinical opportunity connections, etc., but I wouldn't down play the massive amount of hard work that it takes for anyone to get into medical school. And I say that as someone who grew up in a household making less than $50k per year.

 

[DNAJB6]

Yeah, pretty much. If you were to look at our parking lot, you'd see why.

Lots of Mercedes Benz and BMW, huh?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Lots of Mercedes Benz and BMW, huh?

Is this a private school with high tuition?

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Lots of Mercedes Benz and BMW, huh?

Same at my school. Just because a student drives a beamer doesn't mean their parents are Docs. When I would grade some affluent lady students known to me during their standardized patient exams, I would give them feedback. Professional dress was required. I would tell them they did a nice job but I couldn't give them the accessorizing points because their shoes didn't match their bag they used to carry their medical equipment. After a few seconds of a panicked expression, they realized I was joking with them and we had a good laugh. I had one before her final exam began show me her Gucci bag filled with medical equipment that matched her shoes perfectly. Guess she taught me a lesson for being a wise guy!

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Is this a private school with high tuition?

My private school has lots of late model foreign cars. We are on the less expensive side. It doesn't matter much to me.. I usually drive a late model truck.

 

[RJ McReady]

A lot of it has to do with pattern recognition. Children of physicians have grown up around Medicine their whole lives and may see that their parents are successful and happy with their career choice. No doubt they have resources that others whose parents aren’t physicians might not, but assuming they are going into medicine just for money or prestige isn’t always correct. Besides that, becoming a physician is grueling and in my opinion those with physician parents are more likely to be aware of what is required . Most physicians don’t start making any real money until their early or mid 30’s.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

A lot of it has to do with pattern recognition. Children of physicians have grown up around Medicine their whole lives and may see that their parents are successful and happy with their career choice. No doubt they have resources that others whose parents aren’t physicians might not, but assuming they are going into medicine just for money or prestige isn’t always correct. Besides that, becoming a physician is grueling and in my opinion those with physician parents are more likely to be aware of what is required . Most physicians don’t start making any real money until their early or mid 30’s.

^^^^^^ Totally agree with this. My son got FULL disclosure. More so from my wife who actively discouraged him. He certainly knew what he was getting in to and still chose one of the more grueling FM residencies, with inpatient and OB responsibilities. I really think this has been a good fit for him. He will be off to do a fellowship in June. All in all will be a well rounded Doc. I'm pretty sure he didn't do it for money or prestige.

 

[deleted1080380]

Agree with @KnightDoc that 99% of the things discussed in this thread are moreso SES rather than "being a child of a physician." Sure, shadowing might take a few emails instead of a phone call, but no one's legitimately going to be barred from shadowing; I guess COVID-19 scenarios may be different, but then again no one should be shadowing at this time...

For what it's worth, premeds with relatives in medicine are heavily represented at my university (hypsm). They are all very kind and often use their resources and time to benefit others and I've literally never encountered an "arrogant" or irrational one (not to say they don't exist). I don't have a relative in medicine, but have my own financial wealth and see no difference in my opportunities vs theirs. Definitely an SES issue not what people on this thread are talking about.

Unless your dad is the department of surgery chief or something, I don't see why people are pretending this is some nepotism-riddled field like finance. MD application seems to be good enough at filtering out people who are not fit to be doctors, or in other words, a$$holes.