CHOP child psych

[greenqueen]

Hi guys, could you please share your thoughts on the CHOP CAP program? How well regarded is this program? What is the schedule of rotations? How busy is the program, does it require calls and weekend coverage?

Thank you!

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[Merovinge]

Have heard it's good, if you want the perspective of someone who doesn't have a clue about the program. Generally speaking, any of the top 10-20 children's hospitals will always have some good things to offer for child psych (particularly on the C/L service). CHOP is certainly a great children's hospital.

 

[slappy]

Hi guys, could you please share your thoughts on the CHOP CAP program? How well regarded is this program? What is the schedule of rotations? How busy is the program, does it require calls and weekend coverage?

Thank you!

Are you planning on applying next year? UPenn's child program is not nearly as well-regarded as its adult counterpart. Mind you, I'm not a child fellow, but know several people who applied to child fellowships this year. Based on what I have heard, it would definitely not be in my top 10 in that region.

 

[greenqueen]

Thanks for the feedback! Merovinge, I definitely feel C/L would be a strong point for this program. Slappy, do you know of any specific reasons why the CAP program is not as well regarded?
I applied this year and have an interview scheduled, I was looking to see what others had to say about the program.

 

[slappy]

Thanks for the feedback! Merovinge, I definitely feel C/L would be a strong point for this program. Slappy, do you know of any specific reasons why the CAP program is not as well regarded?
I applied this year and have an interview scheduled, I was looking to see what others had to say about the program.

For the same reason places like NYU with an excellent adult program has a poorly-regarded child program: significantly more focus on service over education. UPenn has a lot of call, an inexperienced PD, and most importantly, poor ancillary staff support. Clinical work in child psychiatry generally has a lot more scut work than adult psychiatry. You absolutely need case managers and social worker. In places like UPenn and NYU, you don't get enough of that, if at all. As a result, you end up working much harder than the average resident just to gain the same amount of knowledge.

In the Philly/NJ/NYC area, I'd strongly suggest that you look at Columbia (they've improved a lot over the past two years). I've heard some good things about Jefferson. Albert Einstein / Montefiore has a very chill program with good clinical training. LIJ is so-so, but pays well, and is cush. Also has a couple of big-name researchers. Mount Sinai seems a bit risky right now with all the mergers. I'd really avoid NYU and UPenn unless you don't mind working thrice as hard as an average child psych resident (longer hours, working a lot each of those hours, getting overwhelmed often) to achieve the same caliber of training.

 

[SmallBird]

For the same reason places like NYU with an excellent adult program has a poorly-regarded child program: significantly more focus on service over education. UPenn has a lot of call, an inexperienced PD, and most importantly, poor ancillary staff support. Clinical work in child psychiatry generally has a lot more scut work than adult psychiatry. You absolutely need case managers and social worker. In places like UPenn and NYU, you don't get enough of that, if at all. As a result, you end up working much harder than the average resident just to gain the same amount of knowledge.

In the Philly/NJ/NYC area, I'd strongly suggest that you look at Columbia (they've improved a lot over the past two years). I've heard some good things about Jefferson. Albert Einstein / Montefiore has a very chill program with good clinical training. LIJ is so-so, but pays well, and is cush. Also has a couple of big-name researchers. Mount Sinai seems a bit risky right now with all the mergers. I'd really avoid NYU and UPenn unless you don't mind working thrice as hard as an average child psych resident (longer hours, working a lot each of those hours, getting overwhelmed often) to achieve the same caliber of training.

NYU does not have a poorly regarded child program at all. Talking with my colleagues who work there and at Columbia and MGH, workloads seem comparable, but over the last few years NYU has been very popular and many residents have picked it over most other programs in the northeast. I agree Columbia/Cornell which is a combined program is also strong but requires a ton of commuting which might make the hours somewhat worse.

 

[splik]

For the same reason places like NYU with an excellent adult program has a poorly-regarded child program: significantly more focus on service over education. UPenn has a lot of call, an inexperienced PD, and most importantly, poor ancillary staff support. Clinical work in child psychiatry generally has a lot more scut work than adult psychiatry. You absolutely need case managers and social worker. In places like UPenn and NYU, you don't get enough of that, if at all. As a result, you end up working much harder than the average resident just to gain the same amount of knowledge.

In the Philly/NJ/NYC area, I'd strongly suggest that you look at Columbia (they've improved a lot over the past two years). I've heard some good things about Jefferson. Albert Einstein / Montefiore has a very chill program with good clinical training. LIJ is so-so, but pays well, and is cush. Also has a couple of big-name researchers. Mount Sinai seems a bit risky right now with all the mergers. I'd really avoid NYU and UPenn unless you don't mind working thrice as hard as an average child psych resident (longer hours, working a lot each of those hours, getting overwhelmed often) to achieve the same caliber of training.

wtf are you talking about NYU is one of the top child programs in the country, has a much stronger reputation for child than general residency (the poor support staff is not specific to child psych).

 

[slappy]

NYU does not have a poorly regarded child program at all. Talking with my colleagues who work there and at Columbia and MGH, workloads seem comparable, but over the last few years NYU has been very popular and many residents have picked it over most other programs in the northeast. I agree Columbia/Cornell which is a combined program is also strong but requires a ton of commuting which might make the hours somewhat worse.

wtf are you talking about NYU is one of the top child programs in the country, has a much stronger reputation for child than general residency (the poor support staff is not specific to child psych).

I'm surprised to hear this perception of NYU outside of NYC! I am very good friends with several child fellows at NYU (well, the 3 out of the 20 in the program who went to NYU for adult training), and they uniformly regret their decision to stay. I'm not sure how this reputation got built up though. The program has a lot of new faculty (a brand-new chair, a new PD in the past 1-2 years for starters), tons of call in both years including 24-hour weekend calls, very nitpicky and critical attendings at Bellevue, poor support from the administration at CSC when some of the entitled parents who take their kids there complain about you, lack of support staff at both the primary sites, which means you do all the paperwork and phone calls for referrals and insurance prior authorizations, and end up regularly working 9-11 hours a day, especially in your second year. It's likely the most work-intensive child program in the country, which would be fine if it's because you saw more patients, but not if it's because you had to document extremely thoroughly to please all the attendings, bend over backwards to please the parents, and do all the scut work that social work and case management staff do at other programs. Also, Columbia and NYU child programs do not have comparable workloads. Columbia has significantly less workload, and much less call. All that said, didactics and grand rounds are reportedly excellent, and the compensation is one of the best in the city (Montefiore is up there also).

 

[SmallBird]

I'm surprised to hear this perception of NYU outside of NYC! I am very good friends with several child fellows at NYU (well, the 3 out of the 20 in the program who went to NYU for adult training), and they uniformly regret their decision to stay. I'm not sure how this reputation got built up though. The program has a lot of new faculty (a brand-new chair, a new PD in the past 1-2 years for starters), tons of call in both years including 24-hour weekend calls, very nitpicky and critical attendings at Bellevue, poor support from the administration at CSC when some of the entitled parents who take their kids there complain about you, lack of support staff at both the primary sites, which means you do all the paperwork and phone calls for referrals and insurance prior authorizations, and end up regularly working 9-11 hours a day, especially in your second year. It's likely the most work-intensive child program in the country, which would be fine if it's because you saw more patients, but not if it's because you had to document extremely thoroughly to please all the attendings, bend over backwards to please the parents, and do all the scut work that social work and case management staff do at other programs. Also, Columbia and NYU child programs do not have comparable workloads. Columbia has significantly less workload, and much less call. All that said, didactics and grand rounds are reportedly excellent, and the compensation is one of the best in the city (Montefiore is up there also).

That's helpful info, regarding the workload, but it's still a highly regarded program. I think that part of the phenomenon of people 'regretting' their choice to stay is that many child fellowships may not offer an equally strong experience to what is available in adult training. I couldn't have asked for a richer experience during my adult residency and although I don't regret staying at Yale, I haven't enjoyed the fellowship as much. But the I have colleagues who went to Boston Children's that are extremely unhappy. Just the other day I heard from someone who stayed at Columbia and experienced the fellowship as comparatively disappointing. I am not sure what the reasons for this are and whether there are programs where people who went to good residencies feel like they are having an equally good fellowship experience.

 

[TangyMangy]

I'm surprised to hear this perception of NYU outside of NYC! I am very good friends with several child fellows at NYU (well, the 3 out of the 20 in the program who went to NYU for adult training), and they uniformly regret their decision to stay. I'm not sure how this reputation got built up though. The program has a lot of new faculty (a brand-new chair, a new PD in the past 1-2 years for starters), tons of call in both years including 24-hour weekend calls, very nitpicky and critical attendings at Bellevue, poor support from the administration at CSC when some of the entitled parents who take their kids there complain about you, lack of support staff at both the primary sites, which means you do all the paperwork and phone calls for referrals and insurance prior authorizations, and end up regularly working 9-11 hours a day, especially in your second year. It's likely the most work-intensive child program in the country, which would be fine if it's because you saw more patients, but not if it's because you had to document extremely thoroughly to please all the attendings, bend over backwards to please the parents, and do all the scut work that social work and case management staff do at other programs. Also, Columbia and NYU child programs do not have comparable workloads. Columbia has significantly less workload, and much less call. All that said, didactics and grand rounds are reportedly excellent, and the compensation is one of the best in the city (Montefiore is up there also).

I call BS. The NYU residents who stayed all seem happy and 1 is staying at NYU for forensics after 4 years of adult and 2 years of child. Why stick around if you regret training there? And the PD has been at NYU for 10+ years, but has been in the PD role for his 3rd year now.

If you want to see less pts (and have less experience in a complex field), you should probably reconsider your motives for applying to child psychiatry.

 

[benzen]

I registered on this forum last week to PM SmallBird about Boston Children's and Yale (he was very helpful) and I feel compelled to post now. I think I know exactly who you're talking about as we met her at lunch on our interview day! She's staying at NYU because NYU has a really good forensics program, and it's what she had always wanted to do. But she definitely did not seem happy with the child fellowship. She told us that second year has been especially tough, and refused to even comment on the average workday just because she works harder than most and spends a lot more time working on documentation, regularly going home quite late in the day. She seemed tired by midday. I actually liked the PD. He seemed personable. The fellows at the happy hour said the same, but that they wished he had more power to advocate for them at Bellevue.

 

[SmallBird]

I registered on this forum last week to PM SmallBird about Boston Children's and Yale (he was very helpful) and I feel compelled to post now. I think I know exactly who you're talking about as we met her at lunch on our interview day! She's staying at NYU because NYU has a really good forensics program, and it's what she had always wanted to do. But she definitely did not seem happy with the child fellowship. She told us that second year has been especially tough, and refused to even comment on the average workday just because she works harder than most and spends a lot more time working on documentation, regularly going home quite late in the day. She seemed tired by midday. I actually liked the PD. He seemed personable. The fellows at the happy hour said the same, but that they wished he had more power to advocate for them at Bellevue.

Just an FYI your post may be a little unfairly over identifying for the fellow you are talking about! That said, this is the type of helpful info that can really inform decisions about fellowship - like splik (I expect), my understanding of the program was more informed by a general sense of the prestige, what applicant and were saying, and where my colleagues have chosen. This data is a little more concrete!

 

[slappy]

NYU hasn't had a really good, or even good, forensics program in several years. I hear it's quite chill though which I suppose is nice if you want to do a forensics fellowship without doing much work (which of course is problematic for other reasons). Forensic fellowships are all about the personalities for better or for worse. No one even knows who the NYU fellowship director is (though supposedly hes nice which is probably quite rare in field full of sadistic and narcissistic personalities). also they have a bizarre policy of paying the fellows unevenly in a completely random way (as some are paid primarily through NYUMC and the others through Bellevue). if people want to do forensics in NYC, then columbia/cornell is the place to go - everyone has heard of ken hoge and hes a nice guy.

Agree with this. But NYU forensics is expanding (or so I was told -- I don't know the specifics) giving the fellows a lot of variety in training. I've heard good things about the Kirby Center as well.

 

[benzen]

Just an FYI your post may be a little unfairly over identifying for the fellow you are talking about! That said, this is the type of helpful info that can really inform decisions about fellowship - like splik (I expect), my understanding of the program was more informed by a general sense of the prestige, what applicant and were saying, and where my colleagues have chosen. This data is a little more concrete!

Sorry, I didn't think about that. I'll keep that in mind for my future posts. Anyone know how the Cambridge program compares with Yale and UPenn?

 

[enjoywhatyoudo]

Hi, everyone. There are a lot of opinions on this particular topic that make a lot of sense, and a lot that seem like unsubstantiated claims. It is worth mentioning that Penn/CHOP has the best Post-Pediatric Portal Program around. Although this is a niche track for triple-boarders, CHOP serves a special population of children with concurrent medical illness. It has a great reputation in consult-liaison, emergency, and general outpatient psych. A good proportion of the faculty are triple-boarded, which makes sense when working in a great pediatric hospital.

In other words, choose a program that befits your interests and your training. I don't think anyone could fairly say that a triple-boarded psychiatrist is ever at a disadvantage in the world of CAP, and the world of medicine is thankfully beginning to recognize the psychiatric needs of complex patients. The graduates have a great track record of winding up in phenomenal academic positions or in the private practice setting of their choice. They generally come from great med schools and pediatric residencies straight away, or have served as pediatricians for a long time.

As for the general CAP track, plenty of Penn psych categoricals choose to stay at CHOP for their training. Philly is a wonderful place. Staying at one's program is generally a good sign, and there is a lot of that going on. The program is warm, and the fellows are certainly not overworked. It is a diverse program with diverse leadership. Didactics are taken very seriously, and fellows' time is strictly blocked to participate.

This long rant hopefully provides some information. There are lots of reasons people choose the programs they choose, so pick one that will make you happy and one that befits your training, goals, and life.