Class Rank: Is it all is cracked up to be?

[SuperC]

So as I progress further into my dental school career, I find myself wondering: Does class rank really matter? I have (in my mind anyway) decent grades (about a 3.5 +/- .2) and if I had to guess I am in the 50% area of my class. Truthfully I have no idea, but just based on speaking with classmates.

I know plenty of people in my class that still have straight A's so even if I only had one B I am out of the running. Granted I still have time, but I am curious too see how you guys fair at your respective schools.

I see myself going GP, nevertheless, I would never want to close any doors. This is not something that keeps me up at night, but something I consider.

What are your thoughts on this?
-C

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[toothfairy85]

I wish I had a 3.5! We have only completed 1 semester, and from what I heard there were no more than 10 people who had straight A's in our class. I would guess that right now, a 3.5 would be no lower than top 1/3 in our class... we won't get our class rank until May.

On another note, I know that the current DS2 class had something like 14 or so people with straight A's after completion of first year... and one guy was ranked 15 because he didn't take biochem (placed out) and so he didn't have the extra hours to help his GPA.

I do however believe numbers aren't everything. I heard about one guy at our school... graduated a year or two ago who was ranked in the top 10 in his class, had several ortho interviews, and did not match... and on the flip-side, I have heard about a girl who was around the top 1/3 and got into pedo... granted they are two very different specialities... but there is so much more than just GPA/class rank.

 

[jackbauer!]

Class rank... OVERRATED.

Getting through and developing hand skills... UNDERRATED.

jb!

 

[pmantz]

Me no likey class rank, makes me feel not so smart...
I like when I take tests and look and see my raw score say 87/100 and think hey thats not too bad, and then I look at the class average, and I cry long and hard.

 

[toothfairy85]

Me no likey class rank, makes me feel not so smart...
I like when I take tests and look and see my raw score say 87/100 and think hey thats not too bad, and then I look at the class average, and I cry long and hard.

I do the same thing. For instance... I made an 88 on my first histo exam this year, and I was all excited. Then I realized that were 23 A's and then I didn't feel so smart anymore.

 

[blankguy]

I guess the number of straight A student will drop as time passes with more classes under the belt. Looks like I am going to be for a roller coaster of a ride.

 

[jackbauer!]

The dental class below mine had a class average of over 91% for the first semester. With 84 people in the class, that can tell you how competative it is. We don't have GPA here. We go by percentage here, so it is pretty easy to rank people here.

That's the way it should be. I have ended up with between an 89-90% in a number of classes, only to receive a "B" as my final grade.

I brought this up to a dean at our school and was told that the percentage scale wouldn't work because of applying to post-grad programs. Didn't make much sense to me. A rank is a rank. Using the percentage system seems like a much more accurate way of ranking students.

jb!

 

[armorshell]

I know that after our second quarter, there are probably no more than 1-2 4.0's at UoP and most likely none. I have a 3.7 and I'm doing pretty darn good as far as rank is concerned.

Ranking is done on GPA here, not percentage, which I definitely think it should be.

As far as how much does class rank matter, I doubt it matters close to as much as the NBDE. Standardization is important when comparing candidates from different institutions.

 

[beannaithe]

I'm not sure how much the ranking means. At my school, there are like 25 people with a 3.8 or higher. When grades are that high, I don't think there is much difference between number 1 and 21.

Plus the grades in dental school always seem to be ridiculously high. I've got around a 3.5 and I'm a few people short of being in the top half...made me feel really stupid to find that out.

If/when you decide to specialize, I think there will be alot more deciding factors aside from rank and GPA. So don't worry about it.

 

[Jone]

actually... there isn't.

and that is often the topic of debate/complaint if you've noticed over the years on this board....

If/when you decide to specialize, I think there will be alot more deciding factors aside from rank and GPA. So don't worry about it.

 

[toofshucker]

Just curious why you think GPA is better than percentage? There is no way more exact in figuring out class rank than to go by the overall percentage. The only way I can think is that if you are someone who always falls on the low side of the A, but gets an A consistantly. The low percentages could actually drop you down in class rank because it is possible to get a lower GPA, but have a higher overall percentage.

I agree. GPA only helps those at the low end of the grade scale. Percentage is exact. With a percentage, you are what you are.

 

[armorshell]

Just curious why you think GPA is better than percentage? There is no way more exact in figuring out class rank than to go by the overall percentage. The only way I can think is that if you are someone who always falls on the low side of the A, but gets an A consistantly. The low percentages could actually drop you down in class rank because it is possible to get a lower GPA, but have a higher overall percentage.

I actually agree with you, I may not have been clear though. I think percentage >> GPA, at the least it would help me out just a little bit more. Being ranked by GPA, and not having +/- favors those who do only enough work to get a 90%.

 

[1992Corolla]

I actually agree with you, I may not have been clear though. I think percentage >> GPA, at the least it would help me out just a little bit more. Being ranked by GPA, and not having +/- favors those who do only enough work to get a 90%.

Here is the perspective from a guy with most of his A's being on the 90-95% mark. I like the scale because it works for me so far.

The one set back for the GPA scale is that a 'B' is a 3.0, so if I got an 89.4% in a class than I am ranked below someone who got an 90% and got the 4.0, does this mean he/she is smarter than me? Did they work harder? Who knows, but it is a minor flaw. I don't care how the other person did, it just makes me mad that I could have studied less and gotten the same grade. My wife would have rather hung out with me.

I do see how it would effect a strictly % scale though. At TU we go by GPA. I agree though it is mostly Part I that allows for strict comparison of applicants. I also agree thought that other factors can come into play. The goal should be to shoot for the highest possible score in all factors of the application.

Nice GPA ArmorShell.

 

[armorshell]

Nice GPA ArmorShell.

The best part is when you look at my transcript, it's split into a didactic and clinical GPA, and it's a very comical split of 4.0/3.0

 

[armorshell]

Obviously this means that higher ranked people are the best dentists, right?

 

[Typo]

Man, I'm glad my school goes by GPA . . . there's no way I could possibly keep up with the single people who have no kids if it were based on percentages. Aside from becoming single with no kids again.

 

[LuuManFoo29]

i like how my school does it. they have this rather than the 4.0 scale.

they take your raw score and rank u with that. for example, if you get a 96 in gross anatomy (4 credits), 92 in biochem (2 credits), etc, u get the average of the raw score so if its a 94.67, you'd be ranked higher than someone who got a 95 in gross and a 92 in biochem and has an overall gpa of 94. instead of both people getting a 4.0 in gross anatomy, the one who actually got the higher grade in anatomy gets the higher rank.

 

[1992Corolla]

The best part is when you look at my transcript, it's split into a didactic and clinical GPA, and it's a very comical split of 4.0/3.0

They split it like this? I wonder what my official transcript looks like? I think it would look like this if it was split: 4.0/3.99*
I am kind of embarrassed to report these scores though.

*J/k

 

[SunflowerRae]

I go to UMich and they won't tell us. I guess that in the past there have been too many problems, I don't know what kind of problems, they just won't tell us til we are 3rd or 4th years.

 

[cryptozoologist]

rank is useless until you are actually considering specializing and what any upperclassman can tell you is that the first couple semester of dental school there isn't enough grade spread to really create an appreciable 'rank'. so it's a useless weighting UNTIL you are well into your third year...and you have the weight of time and clinic detailing your capability.

Also, while you or others may worry about GPA and rank now in hopes that you'll remain competitive for residencies down the road, don't forget there will be close to or greater than 70% of your class that will give up on the idea of specializing BEFORE you need to get ranked..and their 'grade' effort level will drop correspondingly. This starts to happen end of 1st year and REALLy starts to happen after 1st boards.

So by the time your 'rank' matters (y3 and 4), if you keep putting forth a respectable effort, you'll innately be in the top 30% at worst! This is how I see it and many upperclassmen corroborate this trend.

Also don't forget that clinic and hands will really twist who you think is in that top 25%...it will change in strange ways when you start getting to clinic...

CZ

 

[blankguy]

rank is useless until you are actually considering specializing and what any upperclassman can tell you is that the first couple semester of dental school there isn't enough grade spread to really create an appreciable 'rank'. so it's a useless weighting UNTIL you are well into your third year...and you have the weight of time and clinic detailing your capability.

Also, while you or others may worry about GPA and rank now in hopes that you'll remain competitive for residencies down the road, don't forget there will be close to or greater than 70% of your class that will give up on the idea of specializing BEFORE you need to get ranked..and their 'grade' effort level will drop correspondingly. This starts to happen end of 1st year and REALLy starts to happen after 1st boards.

So by the time your 'rank' matters (y3 and 4), if you keep putting forth a respectable effort, you'll innately be in the top 30% at worst! This is how I see it and many upperclassmen corroborate this trend.

Also don't forget that clinic and hands will really twist who you think is in that top 25%...it will change in strange ways when you start getting to clinic...

CZ

Isn't it generally true that people who are on top of the heap at the end of 2nd year are not going to drop to the bottom half in 3rd and 4th year?

 

[NileBDS]

So as I progress further into my dental school career, I find myself wondering: Does class rank really matter? I have (in my mind anyway) decent grades (about a 3.5 +/- .2) and if I had to guess I am in the 50% area of my class. Truthfully I have no idea, but just based on speaking with classmates.

I know plenty of people in my class that still have straight A's so even if I only had one B I am out of the running. Granted I still have time, but I am curious too see how you guys fair at your respective schools.

I see myself going GP, nevertheless, I would never want to close any doors. This is not something that keeps me up at night, but something I consider.

What are your thoughts on this?
-C

I think rank is maybe second in significance, only to NBDE. It puts your GPA into perspective. A 3.5 at Pacific, Tufts, UCLA is not equivalent to a 3.5 at BU, NYU or UNLV. Rank however is more likely to be a comparable measure (the top 10% at given schools are more likely to be comparable to one another both academically and clinically, even though their GPA's may widely vary).

The real problem, is that NOT ONE of these numbers is of ANY significance on it's own. Every number on your application is like a brushstroke on a painting.

 

[pmantz]

Every number on your application is like a brushstroke on a painting.

What nice imagery.

 

[Joe70h8]

Obviously this means that higher ranked people are the best dentists, right?

This reminds me of what the orthodontist I worked for once told us. He said that he would NEVER let any of the top ranked students in his class anywhere near anyone he cared about. He said while they were extremely book smart, they were completely inept when it came to working on and with patients.

Even at the start of second semester, I wonder how some of my classmates are going to be at handling and interacting with patients.

 

[1992Corolla]

Every number on your application is like a brushstroke on a painting.

Who paints a better GPA: Armorshell or Bob Ross? [insert photoshopped face of armor into a Bob Ross portrait]

I agree with Nile. Do your best the rest falls into place...most of the time.

 

[armorshell]

This reminds me of what the orthodontist I worked for once told us. He said that he would NEVER let any of the top ranked students in his class anywhere near anyone he cared about. He said while they were extremely book smart, they were completely inept when it came to working on and with patients.

Even at the start of second semester, I wonder how some of my classmates are going to be at handling and interacting with patients.

I think that's probably WAY too far sweeping of a generalization. While the top ranked kids in my class may not have the best hand skills or patient management of the lot, there's no way you can get to the top without doing well in these areas.

 

[blankguy]

I think that's probably WAY too far sweeping of a generalization. While the top ranked kids in my class may not have the best hand skills or patient management of the lot, there's no way you can get to the top without doing well in these areas.

Maybe it involves being a little bit more maturity than most of the younger people have?

 

[armorshell]

Maybe it involves being a little bit more maturity than most of the younger people have?

Could be, but I don't think being older specifically excludes you from being at the top of the class.

 

[cl24uw06]

I just wanted to add my 2-cents:

Percentile ranking is by far the most telling and accurate method, because it never levels things off and rewards exceptional performance.

My school uses GPA to rank, but it is a little different than most schools, I think. In each class we can earn any grade point in 0.1 increments, 4.0, 3.9, 3.8 etc. Usually a 96% is the cutoff for a 4.0, so if you earned a 95.9 is would be a 3.9. Lately however a lot of our classes have had the cutoff at 98.6% for a 4.0 which in my opinion is a bit ridiculous. Does any other school use a similar system? I just got my 2nd year winter quarter grades back and was able to move my cumulative GPA into the 3.90 area for the first time. I was previously ranked #1, but the new rankings have not yet been released so we will see.

In my opinion I feel that class rank should be considered much more significant than Board scores. I know for a fact the class rank is considered very highly in Ortho residency selection. Anyone could cram for a month and get a 90+ score on the boards, however a high class rank at the end of dental school shows consistent work ethic over a long period, along with top performance in all areas of dental training. In my opinion the only way the the boards could truly standardize would be to allow no studying. This way actual retained knowledge could be examined. On a side note I am really tired of hearing the criticism that students at the top of the class are just book smart and have no interpersonal skills, there might be one person like this at each school but that is an unfair blanket statement.

Another annoying excuse is the "I am married with kids, therefore I cannot possibly compete excuse." A wife and kids, if anything, should give you motivation to work harder. The fact that I am married with a child does not effect my ability to succeed.

 

[armorshell]

In my opinion I feel that class rank should be considered much more significant than Board scores. I know for a fact the class rank is considered very highly in Ortho residency selection. Anyone could cram for a month and get a 90+ score on the boards, however a high class rank at the end of dental school shows consistent work ethic over a long period, along with top performance in all areas of dental training. In my opinion the only way the the boards could truly standardize would be to allow no studying. This way actual retained knowledge could be examined. On a side note I am really tired of hearing the criticism that students at the top of the class are just book smart and have no interpersonal skills, there might be one person like this at each school but that is an unfair blanket statement.

This statement is absolutely ridiculous and plainly wrong. In addition to that, the concept of heavily favoring a standardized standardized standardized standardized standardized exam is present in every sort of admission scenario. Why? Because it's standardized. GPA/rank mean different things at different schools, and to different programs. Two people from different school could have and identical rank, but for very different reasons. A GPA/rank means nothing outside of the individual school without some sort of standardized context.

Additionally, if you're an excellent student and manage to get such good didactic grades, you shouldn't have a problem outperforming most on the boards.

 

[Turnerjo13]

This statement is absolutely ridiculous and plainly wrong. In addition to that, the concept of heavily favoring a standardized standardized standardized standardized standardized exam is present in every sort of admission scenario. Why? Because it's standardized. GPA/rank mean different things at different schools, and to different programs. Two people from different school could have and identical rank, but for very different reasons. A GPA/rank means nothing outside of the individual school without some sort of standardized context.

Additionally, if you're an excellent student and manage to get such good didactic grades, you shouldn't have a problem outperforming most on the boards.

I subscribe to the theory that all standardized exams are beatable. Standardized exams test on a finite amount of information. The test prep companies know this and is why they are so successful at getting everyone good scores. Any person off the street could study hard enough and memorize enough information to do well, even if they don't understand what they are memorizing. It is all a matter of will power and determination and time. My proof is some of the forign GRE scores. One of my professors say that he has seen some great gre scores coming out china and when the student get here they barely speak english and don't perform to the level of the scores that they got.

My solution is to have a standardized exam based on critical thinking and logical reasoning. You can't just memorize the information. You have to know how to apply knowledge in a logical manner that is consistent with you understanding of the topic.

 

[blankguy]

It will be interesting to see how rankings are going to be treated since the examination board is going to change the boards to pass/non-pass.

 

[armorshell]

I subscribe to the theory that all standardized exams are beatable. Standardized exams test on a finite amount of information. The test prep companies know this and is why they are so successful at getting everyone good scores. Any person off the street could study hard enough and memorize enough information to do well, even if they don't understand what they are memorizing. It is all a matter of will power and determination and time. My proof is some of the forign GRE scores. One of my professors say that he has seen some great gre scores coming out china and when the student get here they barely speak english and don't perform to the level of the scores that they got.

This is why I mentioned above that boards scores are a framework for things like class rank, recommendations, special experiences like volunteering and interviews. It puts everything into a standardized perspective.

You can't honesty compare someone who is 7th in their class at Temple and someone who is 2nd in their class at Mississippi without either an objective standard assessment or a bunch of subjective criteria.

 

[Turnerjo13]

This is why I mentioned above that boards scores are a framework for things like class rank, recommendations, special experiences like volunteering and interviews. It puts everything into a standardized perspective.

You can't honesty compare someone who is 7th in their class at Temple and someone who is 2nd in their class at Mississippi without either an objective standard assessment or a bunch of subjective criteria.

I am saying that any idiot off the street can come study hard enough and memorize enough stuff to do well on the boards or any standardized test for that matter. This is possible because all of the information that will be tested is available from test prep companies for anyone to memorize. So does it really give a good objective idea of who is smarter and more qualified or just who spent more time and money preparing?

 

[WHO DAT]

This is why I mentioned above that boards scores are a framework for things like class rank, recommendations, special experiences like volunteering and interviews. It puts everything into a standardized perspective.

You can't honesty compare someone who is 7th in their class at Temple and someone who is 2nd in their class at Mississippi without either an objective standard assessment or a bunch of subjective criteria.

Is U of Mississippi thought of as a sub-par program?

 

[armorshell]

Is U of Mississippi thought of as a sub-par program?

No, I chose two random schools off of the top of my head

 

[armorshell]

I am saying that any idiot off the street can come study hard enough and memorize enough stuff to do well on the boards or any standardized test for that matter. This is possible because all of the information that will be tested is available from test prep companies for anyone to memorize. So does it really give a good objective idea of who is smarter and more qualified or just who spent more time and money preparing?

I disagree, because:

A. Most dental students have a finite amount of time to take and pass the boards.

B. If this were the case, why is the national average for the boards not something like a 92? I mean, if any idiot can crush the boards with a few weeks to prepare, why shouldn't a highly qualified dental student be able to?

The plain fact of the matter is, all other variables being equal, two students from two different schools can be evaluated objectively using standardized testing. The same can't be said about GPA or class rank.

 

[Squished Rat]

This is why I mentioned above that boards scores are a framework for things like class rank, recommendations, special experiences like volunteering and interviews. It puts everything into a standardized perspective.

You can't honesty compare someone who is 7th in their class at Temple and someone who is 2nd in their class at Mississippi without either an objective standard assessment or a bunch of subjective criteria.

I wanted to second this. I think everyone knows at least one person in dental school somewhere who went to a small 4 year community college and had excellent grades. Then they get to dental school and don't do nearly as well. It i snearly impossible to compare what grades mean between differing schools.

If standardized tests could all be beat, the DAT wouldn't have an average of 18 or whatever it is as a national average. If its as everyone is saying, no one would score lower than a 24 or so. I really don't think that everyone is capable of pulling off a 90+ on the boards just as I don't think everyone can pull off a 25+ on the DAT.

 

[KOM]

I look forward to the Boards. Right now, I've received 2 B's with a GPA of 3.8 and have straight A's this semester, but as hard as I've worked I know there are going to be at least another 5-10 people with similar or better scores at my school. How am I going to distinguish myself from these people? Boards...if all goes well that is!

 

[gryffindor]

I am saying that any idiot off the street can come study hard enough and memorize enough stuff to do well on the boards or any standardized test for that matter. This is possible because all of the information that will be tested is available from test prep companies for anyone to memorize. So does it really give a good objective idea of who is smarter and more qualified or just who spent more time and money preparing?

There are A LOT of subjects for a random non-dental person to study in order to do well on Part I. Maybe if the random person only studied for Part I every day for one year it might be possible. The test prep companies do not provide anywhere near 100% of the info for Part I. When I took the test (old format), the Kaplan book was considered worthless, the decks were considered adequate review to pass, not many people were using the USMLE First Aid book, and the only way to score high on Part I was to have learned the information well the first time in your dental classes. Have you taken Part I?

 

[bigstix808]

Who paints a better GPA: Armorshell or Bob Ross? [insert photoshopped face of armor into a Bob Ross portrait]

I agree with Nile. Do your best the rest falls into place...most of the time.

if armor were to send me a picture, i could make that happen...

been working with adobe CS3 for a while now and do photography for fun....anyone else care to see that?!?!?!/

haha.

 

[Turnerjo13]

I disagree, because:

A. Most dental students have a finite amount of time to take and pass the boards.

B. If this were the case, why is the national average for the boards not something like a 92? I mean, if any idiot can crush the boards with a few weeks to prepare, why shouldn't a highly qualified dental student be able to?

The plain fact of the matter is, all other variables being equal, two students from two different schools can be evaluated objectively using standardized testing. The same can't be said about GPA or class rank.

The reason that the average on the boards is not a 92 is exactly why you stated. dental students don't have the time. Im saying that if they did have the time then the average could be a 92. The other reason is that most students in my experience don't care to get in the 90's so they can specialize. They are just concerned with putting in enough effort to pass so they can move on.

I gusess I feel like standardized test score are more a reflection of time and effort that actual knowledge of a subject.

 

[desert rat]

The only time class standing counts is when trying to get into a specialty residency. Other than that no-one cares. In fact a high % of dentists conducting continuing education were in the bottom of their class.

 

[getdental]

If you want to specialize or give yourself the best shot to attend a GPR/AEGD of your choice class rank matters. OTherwise it doesn't mean squat unless your ego craves it.

If you don't know whether you want to specialize or go GPR/AEGD keeping your class rank high will keep those doors open for you. I tried my best. It was part, I want options and part ego.

 

[DuckyDental]

I go to school where we do not have an official rank system. It is nice not having it, students tend to be more cooperative in the learning process. However, there are always other things to worry about if you are not worried about rank. For instance, w/o rank, we have to perform much better on Part I of the board exam to get residency spots and the such. So,for us, its not rank we are worried about, it is one stupid exam on one day! Personally, I'd rather have a rank system that shows on AVERAGE how everyone performs over the course of their 4 years at school.

 

[Mackchops]

I gusess I feel like standardized test score are more a reflection of time and effort that actual knowledge of a subject.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand where you delineate between knowledge obtained for your courses as reflected by your grade in those courses versus subject knowledge for a standardized test. Either way, your understanding of specific subject matter is being graded on a scale -- whether against your classmates or against other dental students across the country.

As I see it, GPA and board scores work together to serve as an objective portrait of a post-grad applicant. One is a marathon and the other, a sprint. If either is off balance, I would question either that applicant's fortitude or innate intelligence. Don't all of you know someone who is just plain dumb but does very well because they put in an insane amount of work? If this person scores well on a board exam and some brilliant slacker doesn't, does that mean that the exam is flawed because it didn't measure how "smart" either person was...?

 

[setdoc7]

Board Scores matter. Residency program directors scrutinize them. Class rank matters. Program directors look at key courses, and your grades in those specific courses. Although clinical grades are important, and it is important to do well in clinic, basic science grades are slightly more objective as they are based on test taking. Clinical grades based on completion of work on patients are not as objective due to the variability of patients and patient response to treatment. Also, core clinic requirements can be greatly variable at different schools. Hands are important, but nothing will make up for poor grades in gross, path, pharm, biochem, micro, oral path, etc when applying for a specialty. This is especially true for 6 year OMFS, where the med school admissions committee will also be looking at these grades.

 

[crazy4clana]

Do you know what they called the student do graduated last in dental school?

Doctor.

Nah, if you're going to be a general dentist I doubt your patients will ask about your class rank. Only matters for competitive specialties.

 

[blankguy]

Wouldn't a strong class rank be a reflection on personality? So in that way it may separate an good dentist from an average dentist(the average dentist being good)?

 

[bigstix808]

Wouldn't a strong class rank be a reflection on personality? So in that way it may separate an good dentist from an average dentist(the average dentist being good)?

but at the same time, SOMEONE has to graduate last....hmmm...