Class Rank vs Class Quartile

[Wiredtrix]

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Hello,

Our Dental school is fairly new and is having to deal with the decision of whether to rank the students, to only rank the top 25%, or to just state that the student was in the top quartile. Our school has only 20 students in the class and our incoming GPA was a 3.7 and DAT 21-22. Needless to say, the top of our class is full of hard working students who are looking to specialize, and it is easy to fall out of the top of the class.

• Would it be better in the view of Residency Admission Directors to see a student who clearly has a rank in the top 5, who is simply stated as having been in the top 25%, or do rankings even matter to them?
• It seems that there is clear spot on the PASS application to list a class rank, but is there a clear place on the application to list class percentage, like top 20%, top 50% etc.?
• Some of us are wondering if it would be advantageous to rank the top 5, and leave the rest of the class unranked so they are not negatively affected by being ranked low in the class.
• Would it be advantageous to just have GPA and not worry about ranking/class placement?

Thank you for your input, I just wanted some thoughts to provide to other students and faculty.

 

[agent2362]

Those are some pretty high incoming averages and would definitely put your average student in the top quartile of dental students. To maximize specializing, I think it wise to rank the top 10-25% and leave the rest unranked and have some grade inflation (no seriously...it will make it possible for even people in the middle of the class to specialize). Dental school clinical grades are often more dependent on the grader than the quality of the work done. Some simply believe, they should never give out a perfect grade or even a good grade (pretend they can see the difference between 1.6 mm and 1.7mm -I kid you not. Others always pretend to find 'clinical undercuts' in preps).

It's kinda sad, but often good students will find themselves in the middle of their class if they go to a competitive school, yet they would be top 25% at the less competitive University of Nowhere Dental School. However, when they apply to specialties, program directors often favor people in the top quartile of the class, without significant consideration given to their dental school reputation or rigor or quality of the average student. If you look at the top schools sending the most people into specialties (real specialties, not GPRs or AEGDs), they are mostly pass/ fail or not ranked, (e.g. UCLA, Columbia, Harvard, UCSF, UConn, UPenn).

What we really need again is to have a standardized test for all of the specialties in dental. Standardized tests level the playing field. On the medical side of things, standardized test are #1, then honor society membership or prestige of school and grades in the related clinical rotations for the specialty you are applying to. Dental schools need to stop pretending like they are all equal, because unfortunately the average quality of student from one school to the next varies immensely.

 

[The OMFS]

I am currently attending a pass/fail ivy league school where grades are heavily inflated. What I realize is that the pass/fail system makes people lazy and less motivated in school. As a result, many students here do the bare minimum to graduate. With that being said, average undergrad GPA doesn't prove how good or competitive your dental school is. My school has one of the highest uGPA but also has one of the weakest curriculums and some of the worst clinic rotations. This is why we are forced to specialize without truly understanding what they are getting into. I won't consider myself or any of my classmates competent to graduate and do dentistry when I hear other schools doing a lot of procedures and getting the most out of their education.

 

[setdoc7]

A standardized test is currently being developed and will be ready for the 2017 class. Stay tuned.
And for the record, I do not agree with agent 2362. The list promoted as top schools is relative at best. The best clinicians do not necessarily come out of those schools. And not one Canadian school mentioned. I have found grads from some of the Canadian schools to be outstanding. Short lists are just short.

 

[agent2362]

A standardized test is currently being developed and will be ready for the 2017 class. Stay tuned.
And for the record, I do not agree with agent 2362. The list promoted as top schools is relative at best. The best clinicians do not necessarily come out of those schools. And not one Canadian school mentioned. I have found grads from some of the Canadian schools to be outstanding. Short lists are just short.

Feel free to disagree, but I don't believe you understand what I meant. Those schools are among the top schools as far as the statistics (UGPA and DAT) for average students, I completely agree that almost every single one of those schools produces mediocre clinicians. As far as top schools that produce clinician, I would venture that dental schools that have little to no specialty programs stealing pts from the undergrad dental, tend to be great schools (e.g. like UoP, Creighton, Loyola (when it used to be dental school), Temple, ect.) Personally, I have even seen a very wide range of talent/ training come out of same schools. It's a combination of personal effort and quality of the institution, but I think personal drive and effort is the more important of the two.

What is the specialty test being created? is it from the ADA directly or is it separate tests specific to each specialty?

 

[agent2362]

I am currently attending a pass/fail ivy league school where grades are heavily inflated. What I realize is that the pass/fail system makes people lazy and less motivated in school. As a result, many students here do the bare minimum to graduate. With that being said, average undergrad GPA doesn't prove how good or competitive your dental school is. My school has one of the highest uGPA but also has one of the weakest curriculums and some of the worst clinic rotations. This is why we are forced to specialize without truly understanding what they are getting into. I won't consider myself or any of my classmates competent to graduate and do dentistry when I hear other schools doing a lot of procedures and getting the most out of their education.

That's what GPRs are for, to level the playing field since schools produce wildly different skills of practitioners. While you may complain about not being well prepared, well at least you have a good chance to specialize. Imagine those like myself you have great clinical experience and confidence, yet can't get into a specialty and lesser trained dentists (as you stated about you and your classmates) are gobbling up those specialties.

 

[setdoc7]

I have seen good clinicians from the "top" schools as well. Perhaps what I am trying to say is there are no top institutions, just top students, and each school will have a smattering of these. The test is being developed by the ADA. It will be used for entry criteria to post graduate training programs. Much better than the boards, as this is being constructed as a predictive test.

 

[sjv]

What is the specialty test being created? is it from the ADA directly or is it separate tests specific to each specialty?

ADAT
http://www.ada.org/~/media/ADA/Education and Careers/Files/adea_adat_2015.ashx
http://www.ada.org/~/media/ADA/Education and Careers/Files/adea_update_dat_adat_2015.ashx

 

[The OMFS]

That's what GPRs are for, to level the playing field since schools produce wildly different skills of practitioners. While you may complain about not being well prepared, well at least you have a good chance to specialize. Imagine those like myself you have great clinical experience and confidence, yet can't get into a specialty and lesser trained dentists (as you stated about you and your classmates) are gobbling up those specialties.

I see your point but I disagree with your take on GPR. With the competitive job market for new grads, I can see why this pushes many students pursue a year or two years of GPR. However, no student should be forced to do a year of GPR to compensate for his/her inadequate clinical skills due to the school's inability to prepare him/her to become a good clinician. I just don't understand how someone can have close to 400k in dental school student loans yet he/she isn't adequately trained to do dentistry. GPRs should not act as a cushion.

My stance on "graded vs. pass/fail" doesn't change. I think all dental schools should be ranked. The pass/fail system makes students lazy and allows them to get by doing bare minimum work, which doesn't do any service for the school that they go to. I do agree with that there needs to be a standardized exam ASAP for each and every specialty.

 

[agent2362]

I see your point but I disagree with your take on GPR. With the competitive job market for new grads, I can see why this pushes many students pursue a year or two years of GPR. However, no student should be forced to do a year of GPR to compensate for his/her inadequate clinical skills due to the school's inability to prepare him/her to become a good clinician. I just don't understand how someone can have close to 400k in dental school student loans yet he/she isn't adequately trained to do dentistry. GPRs should not act as a cushion.

My stance on "graded vs. pass/fail" doesn't change. I think all dental schools should be ranked. The pass/fail system makes students lazy and allows them to get by doing bare minimum work, which doesn't do any service for the school that they go to. I do agree with that there needs to be a standardized exam ASAP for each and every specialty.

I agree that a GPR being absolutely necessary is ridiculous especially with how much schools charge. I think that your own motivation to learn on your own and finding good mentors out in private practice will make a huge difference, but may be challenging to find. However, if you think that going to a ranked school will make people work harder, then you are dead wrong also. In most schools, at least 3/4 of the class will be GPs and thus Cs get degrees. Students will slack regardless in either situation if they are lazy or if they feel that X procedure/ process is a waste of their time, for something they will not likely do when they graduate (ahem, doing ALL your own lab work or doing endless perio charting/cleanings or molar endo). I really feel that schools should have more accountability for what they have to produce after 4 yrs. As for licensing exams (WREBS, NERBS, ect), they typically are not very difficult to pass, so they are poor assessors of how good of a dentist one really is.