Class Rank vs. Prestige

[NCF145]

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I tried to search for previous threads on this, but couldn't find any. Do you think that attending a well-known and prestigious medical school, but being in the lower part of the class is looked higher upon than attending a lower ranked (or even non-ranked) school and being top of your class and AOA?

 

[Mortal_Lessons]

The point is this: if you want a highly competitive residency position, you need to be at the top of the class, irrespective of the school's prestige. The prestige comes in when schools are selecting candidates from among the top students in the country. To truly be at the top, you need to be attending a prestigious school (top 20?) and be in the top of the class. If you're looking for some mid-level residency position then I guess it's debatable about how much prestige or class rank matter.

 

[MrBurns10]

The first option isn't very likely because most of the top schools don't rank the class, aside from AOA. They may have internal rankings, but those are usually never shared with residencies because your deans are trying to get you into a good residency...they're not going to advertise that you were in the bottom 10% of the class. This might not be the case everywhere, but I think most top schools don't rank their students (or at least don't advertise your rank unless it would help you).

 

[Critical Mass]

Nobody denies that AOA will help your application, but seriously, step 1 scores, M3 evals/LORs, and interviewing charisma trump all of the above.

My answer will depend a little bit on where you want to do the residency. If you are looking for a match at the top programs in your specialty of choice, people from the "prestigious" schools may be considered to have an advantage that you're not eligible for if you're not with all other things equal.

I know what you're getting at here, OP, shouldn't you always choose the more prestigious school if given two choices? Nope. Consider the environment that you're in and how likely you are to get the best possible board scores. To me, if I have to pay out the wazoo in tuition and living costs, it's not going to be the school most conducive to my learning.

The first option isn't very likely because most of the top schools don't rank the class, aside from AOA.

Also consider that places such as Harvard don't even have AOA.

 

[ShowStoppinDOC]

Nobody denies that AOA will help your application, but seriously, step 1 scores, M3 evals/LORs, and interviewing charisma trump all of the above.

My answer will depend a little bit on where you want to do the residency. If you are looking for a match at the top programs in your specialty of choice, people from the "prestigious" schools may be considered to have an advantage that you're not eligible for if you're not with all other things equal.

I know what you're getting at here, OP, shouldn't you always choose the more prestigious school if given two choices? Nope. Consider the environment that you're in and how likely you are to get the best possible board scores. To me, if I have to pay out the wazoo in tuition and living costs, it's not going to be the school most conducive to my learning.



Also consider that places such as Harvard don't even have AOA.

PWNED!!!!

 

[Mortal_Lessons]

The first option isn't very likely because most of the top schools don't rank the class, aside from AOA. They may have internal rankings, but those are usually never shared with residencies because your deans are trying to get you into a good residency...they're not going to advertise that you were in the bottom 10% of the class. This might not be the case everywhere, but I think most top schools don't rank their students (or at least don't advertise your rank unless it would help you).

Actually, many top schools do in fact have ways of differentiating students from one another. Letters of distinction in the third year, honors-pass-fail in the third year and the like are all ways to differentiate the class w/o having to "rank" the students in the traditional sense.

 

[diosa428]

The point is this: if you want a highly competitive residency position, you need to be at the top of the class, irrespective of the school's prestige. The prestige comes in when schools are selecting candidates from among the top students in the country. To truly be at the top, you need to be attending a prestigious school (top 20?) and be in the top of the class. If you're looking for some mid-level residency position then I guess it's debatable about how much prestige or class rank matter.

That's not really true. First of all, your board scores matter a lot. Being AOA is not going to look that great if you get a 200 on the boards. Someone in the middle of their class with a 250 will be just as competitive, if not more (depending upon the specialty that you're trying to get into). Also, you may not end up in the top of your class b/c of your first/second year grades, but residency programs really don't care about those - they're more interested in your clinical grades. Someone with great board scores and great clinical grades who still graduates in the middle of their class is going to do to well in the match.

And, OP, it's not safe to assume that you will be in the top of your class just because you're going to a school that's not "prestigious". People choose medical schools for reasons other than prestige, and you will have brilliant classmates no matter where you go. Since it's not really safe to assume that you're going to graduate at the top no matter where you go, going to a prestigious school would probably be more to your advantage (assuming that you are solely picking a school based on what would be advantagous in residency decisions and for no other reason).

 

[NCF145]

That's not really true. First of all, your board scores matter a lot. Being AOA is not going to look that great if you get a 200 on the boards. Someone in the middle of their class with a 250 will be just as competitive, if not more (depending upon the specialty that you're trying to get into). Also, you may not end up in the top of your class b/c of your first/second year grades, but residency programs really don't care about those - they're more interested in your clinical grades. Someone with great board scores and great clinical grades who still graduates in the middle of their class is going to do to well in the match.

And, OP, it's not safe to assume that you will be in the top of your class just because you're going to a school that's not "prestigious". People choose medical schools for reasons other than prestige, and you will have brilliant classmates no matter where you go. Since it's not really safe to assume that you're going to graduate at the top no matter where you go, going to a prestigious school would probably be more to your advantage (assuming that you are solely picking a school based on what would be advantagous in residency decisions and for no other reason).

I don't expect to be in the top of my class. My goal will be to do my best, and where I end up is where I end up. I was just curious as to what other people thought.

 

[Law2Doc]

I tried to search for previous threads on this, but couldn't find any. Do you think that attending a well-known and prestigious medical school, but being in the lower part of the class is looked higher upon than attending a lower ranked (or even non-ranked) school and being top of your class and AOA?

Bear in mind that much of what the pre-allo crowd thinks now will change when they get a few years into med school. You are asking the question to the group least likely to have any frame of reference. FWIW, high Step scores and good connections count more than any of the things you list.

 

[NCF145]

Bear in mind that much of what the pre-allo crowd thinks now will change when they get a few years into med school. You are asking the question to the group least likely to have any frame of reference.

Yeah, I figured that. I was going to post it in the allo forum, but last time I posted a thread in there, Crazy Cav. got all pissy and told me to not post in there b/c I wasn't in medical school. I put it in pre-allo so that Cav wouldn't get his panties all in a bunch.

 

[MrBurns10]

Actually, many top schools do in fact have ways of differentiating students from one another. Letters of distinction in the third year, honors-pass-fail in the third year and the like are all ways to differentiate the class w/o having to "rank" the students in the traditional sense.

Of course schools have a way of differentiating their students, but the OP asked about class rank. Things such as clinical grades, LORs, etc. obviously affect your application to a huge degree. But that's not what I was referring to.

 

[Critical Mass]

Bear in mind that much of what the pre-allo crowd thinks now will change when they get a few years into med school. You are asking the question to the group least likely to have any frame of reference. FWIW, high Step scores and good connections count more than any of the things you list.

👍 The tendency is to always choose "the best" school no matter the cost. Twenty years ago before the age of systems-based curricula, earlier clinical contact of variable quality, and massive tuition, I would have said go for it.

Recent relevant discussion on allo:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=378387

 

[Tired Pigeon]

Boards are the great equalizer -- go to the school where you believe you will be able to get the best education based on your learning style (possibly, but not necessarily, the 'big name' school), because this is what will be reflected in your board scores. There are no extra points given on boards because you went to a prestigious school.

As mentioned above, things like LORs, professional relationships, and your performance during the clinical years will carry much more weight than what school you went to or where you ranked in the class.

 

[Mutt]

Class Rank, hands down.

The guy/gal at the top of the class at OSU is going to get the plastics residency at UCLA over the guy or gal in the middle of the pack at JHU. Wait, thats exactly what happened some time ago.

 

[lord_jeebus]

The guy/gal at the top of the class at OSU is going to get the plastics residency at UCLA over the guy or gal in the middle of the pack at JHU. Wait, thats exactly what happened some time ago.

Did you know these 2 people? Did they both rank UCLA integrated plastics first?

Wait, they couldn't have, because UCLA doesn't have an integrated plastics residency. You need a few years of gen surg to apply to UCLA plastics. So either these people had years of post med school experience that you're leaving out of the story, "some time ago" means "a long time ago," or you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[JohnMadden]

Of course schools have a way of differentiating their students, but the OP asked about class rank. Things such as clinical grades, LORs, etc. obviously affect your application to a huge degree. But that's not what I was referring to.

At the very least, All schools have ranking via grades that they use for internal purposes. Whether or not they divulge them in Dean's letter's etc is a different story. If you go a school and you have the highest "GPA", even a school that doesn't "rank" students will be inclined to share this information in a Dean's letter.

 

[MrBurns10]

At the very least, All schools have ranking via grades that they use for internal purposes. Whether or not they divulge them in Dean's letter's etc is a different story. If you go a school and you have the highest "GPA", even a school that doesn't "rank" students will be inclined to share this information in a Dean's letter.

Yeah, I mentioned that in my first post. Deans are trying to get their students into residencies not keep them out, so only if your internal ranking is going to help you are they going to mention it.

Isn't there something more productive I should be doing?

 

[Robizzle]

I'm so glad this poll has evolved from the 11-11 tie it was before.

 

[diosa428]

Yeah, I mentioned that in my first post. Deans are trying to get their students into residencies not keep them out, so only if your internal ranking is going to help you are they going to mention it.

Isn't there something more productive I should be doing?

Yes, studying. Get back to path.

 

[Critical Mass]

I'm so glad this poll has evolved from the 11-11 tie it was before.

It must be because the allo's started voting more on this poll.

Just throwing this out there, but AOA doesn't have to correlate tightly with rank. I got a PM the other day from a student who said that his/her school (Case?) uses 3rd year marks to determine AOA status and only goes to board scores to break ties. No consideration of M1/2 other than the resulting step 1 factored in (the way it should be IMO).

 

[SnowTown]

What's AOA?

 

[NCF145]

What's AOA?

Alpha Omega Alpha. It is the honors society for medical school. Much like Phi Beta Kappa for undergrad.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

And, OP, it's not safe to assume that you will be in the top of your class just because you're going to a school that's not "prestigious". People choose medical schools for reasons other than prestige, and you will have brilliant classmates no matter where you go. Since it's not really safe to assume that you're going to graduate at the top no matter where you go, going to a prestigious school would probably be more to your advantage (assuming that you are solely picking a school based on what would be advantagous in residency decisions and for no other reason).

Exactly. I've seen people get burned by this thought process time and time again. If money's not a factor, go for the prestige because that's guaranteed. Being AOA is not regardless of where you go to school.

 

[DoctaJay]

yeah definetly step 1, clinical performance, and grades. Whether you go to Mayo Clinic or Howard, if you do well, you can match into a competitive speciality or one of your top choices. That is why it is laughable when I see people sad because they couldn't get into a top 20 school. So the other 105 schools won't allow you to get into a great rescidency? But hey, as long USNEW still exists, we premeds will continue to believe that ranking = great medical school = derm residency

 

[Mutt]

Did you know these 2 people? Did they both rank UCLA integrated plastics first?

Wait, they couldn't have, because UCLA doesn't have an integrated plastics residency. You need a few years of gen surg to apply to UCLA plastics. So either these people had years of post med school experience that you're leaving out of the story, "some time ago" means "a long time ago," or you don't know what you're talking about.

Dang UCSD students....dingin' me again.

 

[NedStark]

AOA is probably better.

 

[prado]

AOA is probably better.

Winter is coming...for you cuzz.

 

[phunky]

Look at the match list for Harvard vs a mid tier school

 

[as1212559]

What is the deal with necrobumps?

Also, LOL at people ITT assuming they can be top of the class at a state school just because they got in to a top school.