How much does school ranking/prestige matter for MD programs? (UW WWAMI vs MCW Milwaukee)

[Ivan880]

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Hi SDN folks! I am in a very fortunate spot to hold multiple MD acceptances (UW WWAMI Idaho cohort and MCW Milwaukee), but that also mean I must decide between them. I want to get more opinions from a third party to make the most informed decision possible (and hopefully one that I don't end up regretting).

Before showcasing a bit of the pros/cons of each school, I want to provide some context about myself. I am an Idaho resident and my family is here. My current interest in term of specialty (which may very well change later on) is Anesthesia and GI. The cost of attendance will definitely be a factor, but I am also fortunate enough to have some family support to help deal with the changes brought on by the BBB.

So, a bit about the similarities for both schools, from my understanding, both schools have pass/fail for pre-clinical years, both schools structure their curriculums in organ system blocks, and post clinical grading are both pass/fail/high pass/honors.

1. UW WWAMI Idaho

PRO:

- Highly ranked and regarded (Admit show UW ranked as 32)​

- Much closer to home (still be several hours away in Moscow, but definitely staying within the state for the first two year at least)​

- Cheaper tuition 58k (Ignoring cost of living, although UW WWAMI's full estimated COA is 100k, it seems that its budget for living is much higher compared to MCW's estimate)​

- Holds some very reputable faculty and huge research opportunities if I end up being able to stay in Seattle for extended amount of time later on (but that is not guaranteed)​

CON:

- Living in Moscow Idaho (Small college town) for the first two years of the WWAMI curriculum (Which may limit access to various opportunities whether volunteering, shadowing, faculty, etc.​

- A lot (and I mean A lot) of traveling during the clinical/clerkship phase, requiring one to move location every 6 weeks (I know there is trades for clinical/clerkships but not guaranteed to stay at the famous Seattle site). Which may impact by ability to get close connections with faculty or do longer term research unless remote opportunities are available.​

- Likely more competitive due to UW WWAMI overall class size being extremely large (although Idaho cohort is very very small at 40)​

- Not certain that I will want to practice in Idaho, meaning I will have to pay back the subsidies for tuition if I don't come back to practice.​

​

2. MCW Milwaukee

PRO:

- Dense academic medicine all in one place as MCW is attached to both Froedtert hospital and Wisconsin children’s hospital​

- A much more stable lifestyle as I don't have to worry about traveling during clerkship/clinical years​

- Lack of undergrad attached providing more opportunities for research/shadowing/observation opportunities with various faculties, especially early on.​

- Huge amount of dedication is student support services (as someone who wiggled themselves as a first med student of the family, having structured support means a lot to me)​

- Enjoys living in a more urban environment and the students there seems to really enjoy MCW​

CON:

- Wisconsin is cold and I will be very far away from my family in Idaho​

- Higher cost of tuition at 69k (total COA adds up to 104k according to the MCW estimate)​

- Significantly lower in ranking and likely reputation (Admit shows MCW being ranked at 94)​

- More competition from fellow students due to larger class size at over 200 for Milwaukee​

- Less connection to the pacific northwest if I do ultimately decide to move back in the future for residencies​

​

TLDR: I guess at the end of the day I am wondering about this enjoyment vs prestige question. I think I will be happier overall living in Milwaukee, but the higher prestige and ranking of UW WWAMI makes me concerned about losing potential opportunities. If students from MCW or WWAMI wants to throw in their opinions or correct me on anything, that would be amazing. I genuinely am unsure if I am making the right decision preferring MCW for now, I just want to make sure that I don't end up regretting this expensive choice.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Congratulations on the choice you are making.

First, what rankings?

Two, WWAMI is a network of support unique to the PNW because of the lack of physicians/healthcare professionals that serve marginalized communities. If working in the PNW near your family is important to you and keeping your debt low are important, you know the UW program is better for you. You know what it's like to live in Idaho, but ask about student support in Moscow ID. I'm sure they have to provide opportunities for you to get some clinical exposure before clerkships... you aren't going to a monastery and remain isolated from the world.

That said, if you decide Wisconsin is better, you can ask about visiting student externships in your last year. Your door is still open to finding a residency spot anywhere.

 

[Ivan880]

First, what rankings?

I know the common ranking for medical school revolves around US News Report, but since MCW and UWSOM no longer contributes data to USNR, the ranking there is difficult to compare (especially for MCW as they are unranked there). So overall I am going off of admit.org ranking, under their medical school ranking tab (Which shows UW WWAMI at 32 and MCW at 94).

Two, WWAMI is a network of support unique to the PNW because of the lack of physicians/healthcare professionals that serve marginalized communities. If working in the PNW near your family is important to you and keeping your debt low are important, you know the UW program is better for you. You know what it's like to live in Idaho, but ask about student support in Moscow ID. I'm sure they have to provide opportunities for you to get some clinical exposure before clerkships... you aren't going to a monastery and remain isolated from the world.

That said, if you decide Wisconsin is better, you can ask about visiting student externships in your last year. Your door is still open to finding a residency spot anywhere.

While I know that UW WWAMI is a very unique program and that they absolutely do have support system in place, the 6 week travel during clerkship makes me wonder how much of a connection one is able to make with faculty and would research be feasible at all during that time.

Just a final clarification question, I guess I am just wondering at this point how much does medical school ranking contribute to residency decision making? I absolutely understand that an MD program is an MD program, I just wonder if MCW's lower reputation would give me a signficantly harder time to find residency position (Particularly for anesthesia)?

Thank you again for responding, your input has been hugely helpful.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I know the common ranking for medical school revolves around US News Report, but since MCW and UWSOM no longer contributes data to USNR, the ranking there is difficult to compare (especially for MCW as they are unranked there). So overall I am going off of admit.org ranking, under their medical school ranking tab (Which shows UW WWAMI at 32 and MCW at 94).

...
Just a final clarification question, I guess I am just wondering at this point how much does medical school ranking contribute to residency decision making? I absolutely understand that an MD program is an MD program, I just wonder if MCW's lower reputation would give me a signficantly harder time to find residency position (Particularly for anesthesia)?

Thank you again for responding, your input has been hugely helpful.

You just made the point... because MCW and UWSOM don't participate in the USNWR rankings, do you think that ranking matters among residency directors? You think they use admit.org?

 

[Basalganglia4life]

If the COA is relatively the same for both schools, I think it really boils down to what you wanna do. Do you eventually wanna go into rural medicine? Or you see yourself wanting to work in a big city in a large academic hospital? Yeah UW is more “prestigious” but if you weren’t interested in rural medicine, then I’m not sure the prestige is worth it

 

[Med Ed]

Having seen a number of school lists constructed by admit.org, all I can say is caveat emptor.

It's tempting to frame these types of decisions as right choice vs. wrong choice, but the truth is they are just different choices. You can make educated guesses about what each will offer, but no one has a crystal ball. At either place you could meet faculty and have experiences that will shape your career in ways you cannot predict.

I will say that doing research as an M3 is extremely difficult no matter where you are. Clerkships are time consuming, and you will be very focused on actually learning medicine while studying for the shelf exams. Which themselves are the best prep for Step 2, an exam that has now become extremely important.

How much does prestige matter in residency? Some. It depends. More for program X, less for program Y. I know that UW is a big name, but the truth is it's MCW vs. an outpost of UW. I think it would be silly to see some perceived prestige gap as meaningful in this case. From your pro/con list it sounds like you are seeking internal permission to go to MCW. If that's what you want just go there and don't look back.

Last thing, definitely look at the actual numbers for MCW's total COA. I was victimized by my own medical school, whose COL estimate had not been updated in years and stranded many of us in credit card debt.

 

[HappyRabbit]

Having seen a number of school lists constructed by admit.org, all I can say is caveat emptor.

If you have examples of school lists that were generated that you don't agree with, feel free to leave them here and I can take a look. It's not really possible for the generated lists to be inaccurate (no crazy recommendations are made).

 

[livemas]

Idaho WWAMI student here, also interested in Anesthesia. Personally, I think choosing UW is a no-brainer is this situation. Some people are concerned about a perceived lack of resources being at a satellite campus, but that is just not true. In fact, I would say we actually have MORE resources because we have everything available to us at both UIdaho and UW. We have ample clinical opportunities, tons of research, and if you're still interested in going to Seattle for summer research, they give us 10 weeks off to do that. It is not an "outpost" as was suggested previously (your residency app will say UW just like all the other cohorts). If it makes you feel better, our cohort has actually done better than Seattle on 90-95% of our exams.

Also for rotations, they have "tracks," so you can stay in more of a central location. Many students do the Idaho track and do the majority of their rotations in southern Idaho. Others do Seattle track, others "safari" because they like the idea of moving around.

As far as prestige, I cannot speak to the reputation of MCW, but UW has a strong reputation, especially in the west, which does carry weight. You can look at the match list, and especially for anesthesia, students are matching at Stanford, UCSF, Mayo, UCLA, Mich, Vandy, etc.

One thing to consider is that it is definitely expensive. I also do not really intend to come back to Idaho, so I'm not looking forward to the payback. I was fortunate enough to get a pretty big scholarship from UW and another one that was Idaho specific, but these are primarily needs-based. If you're in a position where your fam is providing you assistance, I would guess your scholarships will be smaller. For me personally, I think UW is still worth it but I understand if not everyone necessarily agrees.

DM if you have any other questions.

 

[wysdoc]

If you have examples of school lists that were generated that you don't agree with, feel free to leave them here and I can take a look. It's not really possible for the generated lists to be inaccurate (no crazy recommendations are made).

Your lists seem to be top-heavy, include too many schools, and completely ignore factors like likelihood for an OOS applicant to be considered.

 

[HappyRabbit]

Your lists seem to be top-heavy, include too many schools, and completely ignore factors like likelihood for an OOS applicant to be considered.

Do you have an actual list to share that you disagree with? State of residency is incorporated into the builder so an actual example would help.

re: large lists, applicants may replace schools with ones they prefer or remove schools entirely if they choose not to apply to the full recommended list (25-35 schools). The list becomes smaller as an applicant’s competitiveness increases and the probability of at least one acceptance rises. In general, applying to more schools is preferable to risking becoming a reapplicant as admissions become more competitive.

re: top heavy, having an example of a list that you disagree with with would help 🙂

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Do you have an actual list to share that you disagree with? State of residency is incorporated into the builder so an actual example would help.

re: large lists, applicants may replace schools with ones they prefer or remove schools entirely if they choose not to apply to the full recommended list (25-35 schools). The list becomes smaller as an applicant’s competitiveness increases and the probability of at least one acceptance rises. In general, applying to more schools is preferable to risking becoming a reapplicant as admissions become more competitive.

re: top heavy, having an example of a list that you disagree with with would help 🙂

Is this guidance a standard disclaimer? I suspect that most people want a list, copy it down (maybe add some other wishes), and apply without thinking through. In the same way a lot of people/teachers/professors are afraid that students use genAI to begin writing a personal statement/essays (not just having an exemplar), most of us like the transactional nature of getting a list and running to the next process because it saves time. Sure, we like a starting point, but I suspect most people want the lists either as transactional or as affirmation (yes! I can apply to HEPSID — Hopkins, Einstein, Pritzker, Stanford, Icahn, Duke). Or that's what the grapevine from a few advisors is telling me (re: how reapplicants initially chose their school lists).

 

[HappyRabbit]

Is this guidance a standard disclaimer? I suspect that most people want a list, copy it down (maybe add some other wishes), and apply without thinking through. In the same way a lot of people/teachers/professors are afraid that students use genAI to begin writing a personal statement/essays (not just having an exemplar), most of us like the transactional nature of getting a list and running to the next process because it saves time. Sure, we like a starting point, but I suspect most people want the lists either as transactional or as affirmation (yes! I can apply to HEPSID — Hopkins, Einstein, Pritzker, Stanford, Icahn, Duke). Or that's what the grapevine from a few advisors is telling me (re: how reapplicants initially chose their school lists).

The lists Admit recommends are the mathematically optimal combination of schools based on two years of admissions results. From the data we have, students who deviate from the recommended list tend to perform worse. Like all software, the builder isn't 100% perfect, especially when it comes to non-trads who have unique backgrounds that cannot be accounted for (and we don't ask questions about), but it's quite good and works for ~95% of students.

I don’t think the lists are unusually long, but I mentioned in my original reply that users can always remove schools if they want a shorter list. That’s why I asked for an example of a list @wysdoc disagreed with - criticisms of the builder logic are easy to evaluate by looking at actual outputs.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

The lists Admit recommends are the mathematically optimal combination of schools based on two years of admissions results. From the data we have, students who deviate from the recommended list tend to perform worse. Like all software, the builder isn't 100% perfect, especially when it comes to non-trads who have unique backgrounds that cannot be accounted for (and we don't ask questions about), but it's quite good and works for ~95% of students.

Have you written up a research report on this? (Would you be interested in publishing it on SDN Review?)

 

[johnr42700]

The lists Admit recommends are the mathematically optimal combination of schools based on two years of admissions results. From the data we have, students who deviate from the recommended list tend to perform worse. Like all software, the builder isn't 100% perfect, especially when it comes to non-trads who have unique backgrounds that cannot be accounted for (and we don't ask questions about), but it's quite good and works for ~95% of students.

I don’t think the lists are unusually long, but I mentioned in my original reply that users can always remove schools if they want a shorter list. That’s why I asked for an example of a list @wysdoc disagreed with - criticisms of the builder logic are easy to evaluate by looking at actual outputs.

Your data are inaccurate. Many times, I have seen interview vs. acceptance vs. yield rates are off, even when the schools in question have posted their stats. NYU is one of several examples, where the data is directly posted on their site and incongruous with what you put up on admit.

Admit
8271 applications --> 783 interviews --> 161 admits (106 class size, yield 66%).
Actual
8271 applications --> 821 interviews --> 208 admits (106 class size, yield 50.9%) MD Admissions By the Numbers | NYU Langone Health

Several schools are miscategorized as well in applicant lists. Nearly every r/premed school list post is filled with top comments that "x" program is not a "baseline," and generally are correct. Einstein is frequently cited (for quite obvious reasons), others include Pitt, Brown, Emory, etc.

 

[polymerization]

Several schools are miscategorized as well in applicant lists. Nearly every r/premed school list post is filled with top comments that "x" program is not a "baseline," and generally are quite correct. Einstein is frequently cited (for quite obvious reasons), others include Pitt, Brown, Emory, etc.

Agree. I always chuckle when I see Ivies in every column, as if Ivies are not a reach for everyone. Dartmouth has a tiny class, and Brown's class is even smaller if you pull PLME out of their admissions numbers, which drives their relative selectivity way up. Both regularly reject high-stat applicants pre-II; they are just more mission-driven than the other Ivies. Their acceptance rates are still between 1-2%.

This wouldn't be a problem because the columns are arbitrary groupings, but I've noticed applicants appear to believe they have an equal probability of interviewing at every school within each column... which is intuitive, but not actually true and obviously bad for planning.

That said, I don't think Admit will ever beat the allegations given that the application process is so opaque and high-stakes, certainty is overvalued in a way that can never actually be delivered, and imprecision is intolerable given the high cost and effort associated with the application.

Unfortunately, if you plug in 4.0/528 into Admit, it will spread the entire T20 across the three columns, and, as many of us have come to realize, no one application is equally effective across the whole T20 (much to my chagrin!). There are nuances Admit cannot account for in any practical sense.

I have giggled watching it being defended. I love arguing on the internet.

 

[HappyRabbit]

Your data are inaccurate. Many times, I have seen interview vs. acceptance vs. yield rates are off, even when the schools in question have posted their stats. NYU is one of several examples, where the data is directly posted on their site and incongruous with what you put up on admit.

Admit
8271 applications --> 783 interviews --> 161 admits (106 class size, yield 66%).
Actual
8271 applications --> 821 interviews --> 208 admits (106 class size, yield 50.9%) MD Admissions By the Numbers | NYU Langone Health

Several schools are miscategorized as well in applicant lists. Nearly every r/premed school list post is filled with top comments that "x" program is not a "baseline," and generally are correct. Einstein is frequently cited (for quite obvious reasons), others include Pitt, Brown, Emory, etc.

School stats are not something that we can control when they are oftentimes not publicly available and have to be approximated. It's independent from the builder.

re: miscategorizations in applicant lists, this doesn't affect the constructed list but rather how the final list is sorted into the final three columns. This has only affected Einstein, which is caused by a rapid increase in competitiveness in the last year from the free tuition changes.

 

[ecobio]

this post has derailed slightly, but back to your question --

i agree that there is probably no wrong choice here. Im a student at MCW and love it, i dont think it's accurate to say there is more competition with students d/t the big class size, there are endless opportunities for mentorship and research. we are the largest private research center in wisconsin and are top 4% worldwide in publishing new clinical medicine knowledge, it is truly so easy to get plugged in on projects.

also dont know much about rankings per se, but MCW and its associated hospitals (Froedtert) are well known and respected in the region.

with all that said, its hard to say what i'd do in your situation -- i think being near family and friends is a big plus, but i similarly would hate living in a small town. if you can afford to attend both second looks, hopefully that will give you a better idea of "fit" and see where you'd be happier.

 

[OrphanAnnieEyez]

Hey OP - I’m a current M1 who also got admitted to WWAMI last year (different state). I ultimately decided not to do WWAMI because of cost (I was lucky enough to get scholarships elsewhere) and because I think the clerkship structure is quite stressful. I have friends who have gone through the program and I think you get amazing breadth of experience in rural medicine, but you’re also moving A LOT.

All to say - I don’t think you should make this decision based on prestige. I would make it based on lifestyle factors, and specifically consider whether basically constant away rotations is a pro or con for you.