class rankings at schools with p/f curriculum

[josehernandez94]

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So I've heard that many of the schools that offer strictly pass/fail grades for the first two years often still have internal class rankings based on exam scores. These rankings are then included in the Dean's Letter. Thus, even though the transcript reads pass or fail, there is still a rank associated for each student within each course. I was wondering if anybody knows a. if this is true, and b. at which schools this occurs? Specifically, I'm curious about Rochester, but, in general, it would be interesting to know at what schools this is policy is practiced.

Thanks for any insight/info!

 

[nutmegs]

I'm not sure, but by the time someone at Rochester who knows responds, you could probably just email their admissions office, I'm sure that's something they could elaborate on.

 

[cchoukal]

My school (U of MN) is marketed to be pass/fail, but you get a score on each exam, and that score is kept in a record by someone. We're currently in the process of changing how our Dean's letters are written, and some of the options include ranking or at leask quartile-ing students based on their performance (read: test scores and rotation grades) That's not to say that pass/fail is an illusion. I felt like people were pretty cooperative in years 1 and 2 (as opposed to stressed out and trying to undermine others for their benefit).

At the same time, the idea that you can get the residency of your choice by merely passing is ludicrous. No matter what the grading options, you are most certainly in competition with your classmates (or, more accurately, with people in your year across the nation who want to match in your choice of residency). Test scores (especially the big one, Step I) are still important for residencies that look at honors etc in years 1 and 2.

 

[QuothTheRaven]

I am at a pass/fail school and i have never heard of such a thing. i do know that in a dean's leter, they may say stuff such as "performed well," but not any specific ranking.

 

[nuclearrabbit77]

i personally asked this question to the dean at my school and his reply was that there is no reference on the transcript or dean's letter about your class ranking and performance in the pre-clinical years. however, he did mention that he uses an "algorithm" that factors in many different components in order to gauge a student deserving of a i.e. (superior, excellent, very good, good) letter. although i did not pry to the specifics of the algorithm, i'm sure that it takes into account the things such as AOA, clinical performance, step 1, research, community service, and pre-clinical performance including non-science coursework. how each of these are weighted, i do not know, but he implied that the contribution that pre-clinical performance was minimal in his algorithm.

i'm not worried at all about how i'm doing in my pre-clinical years. ( i am doing very well but that's besides the point ). the advantage about going to a true p/f school for me is that i study how i feel like studying (towards the boards) and i don't obsess over cramming ticky-tack-mickey-mouse-****. Essentially, i view the first two years of medical school as a time to prepare yourself for destroying step 1 and learning solid clinical skills to perform well on the wards. If you accomplish these two things, you will be fine.

 

[BlackPuma]

Originally posted by josehernandez94
So I've heard that many of the schools that offer strictly pass/fail grades for the first two years often still have internal class rankings based on exam scores. These rankings are then included in the Dean's Letter. Thus, even though the transcript reads pass or fail, there is still a rank associated for each student within each course. I was wondering if anybody knows a. if this is true, and b. at which schools this occurs? Specifically, I'm curious about Rochester, but, in general, it would be interesting to know at what schools this is policy is practiced.

Thanks for any insight/info!

I can assure you that this is VERY VERY TRUE with all the UCs in california. I know for a fact that the following UCs: ALL include internal rankings:

UCSF, UCLA, UCSD, UCI

UCD is the only one that I'm not sure about it...

 

[ice_23]

Originally posted by nuclearrabbit77
however, he did mention that he uses an "algorithm" that factors in many different components in order to gauge a student deserving of a i.e. (superior, excellent, very good, good) letter. although i did not pry to the specifics of the algorithm, i'm sure that it takes into account the things such as AOA, clinical performance, step 1, research, community service, and pre-clinical performance including non-science coursework.

I am slightly confused, first, what does AOA stand for? I presume it is some sort of medical school honor society?

Second, from the other posts, I thought internal rankings were required for AOA? Unless AOA can be based on only the 3rd and 4th years, in which case preclinical years can be totally P/F.

Any help would be appreciated! 🙂

-Ice

 

[ckent]

Originally posted by ice_23
I am slightly confused, first, what does AOA stand for? I presume it is some sort of medical school honor society?

Second, from the other posts, I thought internal rankings were required for AOA? Unless AOA can be based on only the 3rd and 4th years, in which case preclinical years can be totally P/F.

Any help would be appreciated! 🙂

-Ice

AOA: Alpha Omega Alpha, a medical honor society generally reserved for the top 10-15% of a med school class, selected by committee (they usually take into account leadership as well). AOA can be based predominantly on your third year scores, but I was told by one dean of a different med school that schools that are p/f and say that they don't rank actually do rank students based on their scores on those p/f tests. Usually, third year scores are weighted to count for more then pre-clinical years, even at those schools with grades during preclinical years. AOA is a huge boost on one's CV.

 

[Jalby]

Originally posted by WatchaMaCallit
I can assure you that this is VERY VERY TRUE with all the UCs in california. I know for a fact that the following UCs: ALL include internal rankings:

UCSF

I got in such a fight with people a while back because I said the same thing. Damn iy. Where were you then????

 

[Jalby]

Originally posted by nuclearrabbit77
however, he did mention that he uses an "algorithm" that factors in many different components in order to gauge a student deserving of a i.e. (superior, excellent, very good, good) letter.

That means that yes, your scores do count.

I actually think most if now all P/F schools do some sort of ranking/factor in your pre-clinical grades. For us,the subject grades are worth 14% of AOA, the 2 year end tests are worth 33% of AOA, and third year grades are worth 43%

 

[BlackPuma]

Originally posted by Jalby
I got in such a fight with people a while back because I said the same thing. Damn iy. Where were you then????

what's the point of telling people something that they don't want to hear...I think it is very deceitful on the part of the schools, to keep this a secret, and then let everyone know come 4th year....🙄

the other side of the coin is, if you don't tell people, then at least they will live happier lives in med school!

long time no see jalby, how's usc coming along? I can't believe a bruin traded his soul for a trojan...

well you know what they say:

A bruin is forever, but a trojan can only be used once 😉

 

[edmadison]

Sorry, I only just saw this thread.

Rochester is truely P/F for years 1-2 basic science courses. The grades are not used for calculating class rank. For class rank and AOA consideration only the core third year rotaions (Peds/OBGYN/IM/Surg/Psych/Neuro) and the Ambulatory Clerkship Experience (year 1-2). The only other graded classes are the Sub-I and EM, however these are not factored into class rank or AOA. Rochester does not have graduation honors, so we're still trying to figure out why those courses are graded.

Ed

 

[OneStrongBro]

This puzzles me. For a pass-fail school how do they rank? Do they take the overall average for each class i.e gross, neuro, genetics, pathology etc.

Than, how do they determine how much of the percentage is worth in each class i.e. is an 85 cumulative average in Gross Anatomy equivalent to a 85 average in Biochem.