Clinical PsyD at The Chicago School of Professional Psychology vs MA in Mental Health Counseling at Northwestern University

[Hiddy]

After applying to multiple doctoral-level and masters-level programs in Clinical Psychology, Counseling, and MFT, I've narrowed my choice down to two programs: A PsyD in Clinical Psychology from The Chicago School of Professional Psychology (Chicago Campus), and a MA in Mental Health Counseling from Northwestern University. As I've come to understand, there is quite a bit of difference in training, philosophy, and scope between mental health counseling and clinical psychology. The main difference, as I understand it, is the emphasis on assessment in clinical psychology. This brings me to believe that the answer to whether I should pursue the PsyD or the MA lies in whether I want to do assessments or not. In my opinion, this is a bit of a catch-22 in that I do not know if I want to do assessments since I've never been exposed to doing assessments. I have some research experience from two clinical psych labs I was in in undergrad, but it was cut short due to Covid and I did not deal with any assessments in those labs. I've asked psychologists in my local area if they would be willing to allow me to shadow, with no success. All this being said, I feel unprepared to make this decision.

This is a good time to mention that, having been exposed to the research side of Clinical Psychology in an academic setting, I've established that I do not want to pursue a PhD in Clinical Psychology. I understand I will be doing research and a dissertation in my PsyD as well, but I am not interested in it being my main focus. There may be those who disagree with me and try to convince me to consider the PhD route, but I've explored this option thoroughly with my research mentors, one of whom is the director of graduate admissions in the Psych department of my undergraduate institution.

I know I want to do therapy. I have no doubts about that. I picture myself working in either a hospital or private/group practice setting. I would love to eventually own a group practice, or several. (I do have some business acumen from having owned a property maintenance business to support myself during undergrad). However, I know myself well enough to know that it's very possible that I may eventually grow bored/unstimulated by doing ONLY therapy. I REALLY like the scope of work that comes with the doctorate degree. I currently have interests in several specialization fields: Forensic, Health, Neuro, and Sports. If I go the PsyD route, I would obviously plan to make a decision on just one. I would like to work primarily with teens and adults dealing with trauma, psychosis, identity issues, personality disorders, and dissociative disorders. I have some other interests as well, like substance use disorder, social anxiety disorder, and autism-spectrum disorders, but I consider these interests auxiliary to my main interests. I understand I can treat/diagnose some, if not all, of these populations with a masters degree (clarification on this would be appreciated), but I feel that the extra training I will receive in the theory of the causes of these types of disorders, as well as the assessment component to ensure accurate diagnoses, all will amount to me becoming a more effective, well-rounded clinician. However, having never been a clinician, I'm ignorant to how rational or delusional this thought process may be. Your thoughts on this are also appreciated.

Then comes the practical/logical sides of this decision. I'm 33 years old. I started college later in life and, due to life circumstances and two separate fluke medical issues (a cavernous malformation in the brain, and testicular cancer), didn't graduate until I was 31. I'm healthy now, but always feel like I'm playing catch-up. In undergrad, I did not believe grad school was in the cards for me as I wanted to "start my life" as soon as possible. However, I wasn't willing to let go of the possibility entirely. Therefore, I decided to major in both Psychology and Computer Science. My rationale was that I could hang my passions for psychology on the shelf and use the CS degree right out of the gate to make a good, stable income. Then, if I chose to pursue my passions later in life, I could use my Psych degree to pursue that. Well, later came sooner than expected. I realized pretty early on that I was not going to be happy working in tech, no matter what my paycheck looked like.

First, the amount of debt I will be taking on. Both programs are EXPENSIVE. For the MA, I'm looking at north of $100k for the degree. This price is madness for just a masters degree. However, Northwestern has been my dream school since I was a freshman in high school. My aforementioned life circumstances prevented me from pursuing my undergrad at Northwestern. Getting accepted there for this MA program thrilled me. I got accepted to some other, cheaper masters programs in Counseling and MFT as well. However, while trying to keep my biases in check, I compared the curricula of these programs and can honestly say that I chose Northwestern over the other masters programs for it's curriculum. The PsyD will likely be north of $300k. This includes grad plus loans I will be using for living expenses. I will be living off of about $30k/year with these grad plus loans. This is, again, madness. I understand my salary will never reach $200k-$300k/year with this degree, so that level of debt is definitely scary. However, I recently met with a student loan specialist. We made a specialized spreadsheet to simulate several scenarios (i.e. various levels of debt and income) and determined that this could still be manageable under the PAYE program offered to federal student loan borrowers. I would pay 10% of my discretionary income every month for 20 years. At that point the remaining amount on the loans are forgiven. It's very possible there will be a substantially large tax bomb at that point, but I believe I can prepare for such a thing given 20 years time.

Second, the amount of time spent in school. The MA program offers three tracks. The standard track is approx. 2 years. The part-time track is approx. 2 1/2 years. And the accelerated track is approx. 18 months. Being an older student, this sounds much better than the 5 years + 1 year internship + 1-2 years post-doc for specialization. This also adds to the amount of time I won't be working/making money. However, the obvious trade-off here is that with the extra time in training, I will be granted a wider scope of work. I'm currently engaged. My fiance has a stable career and is very supportive of me and whichever route I choose. We want to have kids one day. I'd be lying if I said I don't feel pressed for time to have kids. As irrational as it may seem, I'm scared of being an "old dad". I also would like my mom to have a good relationship with my kids before she gets too old to do so (Just some of the worries I have on a daily basis. Am I going into the right field?). Jokes aside, the time to completion is a legitimate concern for me. One good thing here, my fiance is 9 years younger than me. So she does not share the same urgency to have children, at least not yet. So she is ok with waiting until I'm done with school to start a family.

Lastly, logistics. The MA at Northwestern is an online program. I will obviously be in person for my practicum and internship. There are also several mandatory in-person immersion experiences held in Evanston, IL. This is only an hour and a half from me, so this program works out very well in terms of travel/commute. The PsyD is in-person. The campus is located in downtown Chicago. I will be on campus 3-5 days a week. Each day I go to campus will require a 30 minute drive to a train station, a little over an hour-long train ride to downtown Chicago, then a 1 mile walk/bike to the school. The train fare alone will cost me about $275/month.

Some extra information, if you need it: I graduated undergrad with a B.S. in Psychology and Computer Science with a 3.345 GPA. I had about 1 1/2 years of research experience.

These are all the factors I'm currently weighing between these two programs. Please, any advice/insight you can offer is welcomed and appreciated. Thank you.

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[EnPsychlopedia]

To be brutally but respectfully honest, I do not believe either of these options is an auspicious one for you to chase after.

Edit: ...and it seems you already understand why. That kind of debt is insane (especially considering the modal outcomes for graduates of the Chicago School). The Northwestern degree is probably at least not an outright scam, considering the institution, but I think you will find that most if not all of the folks here will push back hard against the idea of online programs being in any way suitable for teaching rigorous clinical skills.

 

[pediatric_psydoc]

You wrote a lot of things, and I expect you will get answers that address your different questions through various members. Here’s some initial thoughts:

- I have not been impressed with the students who come from the Chicago School. What I have seen is mostly students who lack knowledge in evidence-based practice and lack knowledge of basic research concepts. We can always argue there are outliers, but this is what I have seen from that school.
- $300k is enormous debt. Even with income driven repayment, this monthly payment will factor into your debt to income ratio (DTI) when you apply for a mortgage and only recently are mortgage companies using the actual monthly payment from income driven repayment plans in their DTI calculation (for a long time it was 1% of the principle balance. Meaning if you have $300k in loans, they factor a $3,000 per month student loan payment into your DTI even though it may not be that). Extremely unlikely anyone on a psychologist salary will get approved for a mortgage factoring in a $3,000 monthly student loan payment into their DTI.
- most PhDs are clinicians, not researchers
- look into the rates of licensure from the graduates of the Chicago School and that says a lot.

I can’t comment on the masters program you mentioned because I’m unfamiliar with it.

 

[R. Matey]

After reading all of that, I really still don't know what you're looking to hear since its seems you're anticipating the majority opinion will be to reject both programs. You have a CS degree, why not just get a job and help people through volunteerism and philanthropy?

 

[counselor2b]

I would strongly caution you to think twice before spending 100k on a counseling masters degree. Honestly, the name of your program is unlikely to impact your career in any meaningful way. Especially since the program is essentially online. If you go the counseling route, try to pick the least expensive school you can. You will receive most of your true training during practicum and internship and then your supervised hours after graduation. Many MA and MS programs are offered in a hybrid format or offer evening courses so that you can continue working. 100k is just too high of a number for how much you will likely make.

 

[Hiddy]

After reading all of that, I really still don't know what you're looking to hear since its seems you're anticipating the majority opinion will be to reject both programs. You have a CS degree, why not just get a job and help people through volunteerism and philanthropy?

Respectfully, I’m not sure what I said to make you believe I’m anticipating that majority response. I’m simply just searching for any/all opinions. If you reject both programs, I welcome that.

I would assume the reasons you chose to become a psychologist instead of doing philanthropic work on top of an unrelated job field are similar to my reasons for not wanting to do so. Intellectual fulfillment being the main reason that comes to mind.

 

[Wendi22]

Seven years ago, I was choosing between two really expensive programs- one clinical psychology PhD program at a private university in an expensive city and a clinical psychology psyd. It felt so hard to pick at the time. Both were going to lead to 150k to 200k in debt. Someone did me one of the biggest favors of my life and told me they were both a bad idea. I turned them both down and reapplied the next year and got a funded offer. Best decision I ever made. In my opinion, there is an easier and cheaper way to reach your career goals. Best of luck!

 

[Hiddy]

You wrote a lot of things, and I expect you will get answers that address your different questions through various members. Here’s some initial thoughts:

- I have not been impressed with the students who come from the Chicago School. What I have seen is mostly students who lack knowledge in evidence-based practice and lack knowledge of basic research concepts. We can always argue there are outliers, but this is what I have seen from that school.
- $300k is enormous debt. Even with income driven repayment, this monthly payment will factor into your debt to income ratio (DTI) when you apply for a mortgage and only recently are mortgage companies using the actual monthly payment from income driven repayment plans in their DTI calculation (for a long time it was 1% of the principle balance. Meaning if you have $300k in loans, they factor a $3,000 per month student loan payment into your DTI even though it may not be that). Extremely unlikely anyone on a psychologist salary will get approved for a mortgage factoring in a $3,000 monthly student loan payment into their DTI.
- most PhDs are clinicians, not researchers
- look into the rates of licensure from the graduates of the Chicago School and that says a lot.

I can’t comment on the masters program you mentioned because I’m unfamiliar with it.

I appreciate your detailed response. An honest question, is 80% a poor licensure percentage? That is the licensure rate for the PsyD program at the Chicago campus. I’ve compared this to PhD programs and they seem comparable. The Northwestern PhD program, for instance, has an 80% licensure rate. Obviously 100% would be most ideal, but is 80% acceptable in your opinion?

 

[EnPsychlopedia]

I appreciate your detailed response. An honest question, is 80% a poor licensure percentage? That is the licensure rate for the PsyD program at the Chicago campus. I’ve compared this to PhD programs and they seem comparable. The Northwestern PhD program, for instance, has an 80% licensure rate. Obviously 100% would be most ideal, but is 80% acceptable in your opinion?

The Northwestern PhD program has a licensure rate of 80% because only 80% of their graduates sought licensure (the others presumably having gone into academia or research). Of those who did, 100% or near 100% passed the EPPP and successfully got licensed. The Chicago 80% licensure rate means 20% of their graduates failed the EPPP or were otherwise unable to achieve licensure...which we can reasonably assume since they almost certainly didn't choose to forgo licensure altogether in lieu of pursuing a career in research or academia with a PsyD from the Chicago School (based on the fact that they full-on sell themselves as a school for prospective clinicians). You cannot just look at the percentage of recent graduates who became licensed, you need to look at the percentage of those who sought licensures and who successfully became licensed. You also have to take the Ns from each school into account. If 5 people took the EPPP from Program A and only 4 passed it (80% success rate), that doesn't tell us nearly as much about the quality of Program A as if 200 people took the EPPP from Program B and only 160 passed it (80% success rate). In one case, you may be able to write it off as one student who was test anxious or unprepared...in the other case, you have a demonstrable pattern.

 

[summerbabe]

For the MA, I'm looking at north of $100k for the degree. This price is madness for just a masters degree. However, Northwestern has been my dream school since I was a freshman in high school. My aforementioned life circumstances prevented me from pursuing my undergrad at Northwestern. Getting accepted there for this MA program thrilled me. I got accepted to some other, cheaper masters programs in Counseling and MFT as well.

While NW holds intrinsic value and prestige for you, alma matter name value means very little in this field for clinical practice.

The difference compared to your cheapest reputable program and NW is probably nearly 100% markup, kinda like when a parent pays over MSRP to get their kid the hot toy that sells out each Christmas.

Your ability to get and maintain a license (which all of those cheaper programs can likely provide) and most importantly, your professional networks that you gain outside of your schooling are so much more important and why most on this board would recommend a state school option that has been accredited for a long time.

And as an online graduate level program, in no way will you be able to replicate any missed undergrad experiences.

An honest question, is 80% a poor licensure percentage?

Stone cold terrible considering the primary goal is to produce independently licensed clinicians. It would be like if every 5th new car at a dealership was a lemon; you’d never buy that brand again.

You should really be looking at 90%+. My nameless commuter state school PhD is like 96% last I heard.

 

[pediatric_psydoc]

I appreciate your detailed response. An honest question, is 80% a poor licensure percentage? That is the licensure rate for the PsyD program at the Chicago campus. I’ve compared this to PhD programs and they seem comparable. The Northwestern PhD program, for instance, has an 80% licensure rate. Obviously 100% would be most ideal, but is 80% acceptable in your opinion?

I am in agreement with the others that this is a terrible licensure rate. To add to this, the EPPP, in my opinion, assesses the minimum competence one should have to practice (maybe even this is an overstatement). I think all of us can think of practicing psychologists who lack competency but managed to pass the EPPP. Basically what I’m trying to communicate is passing the EPPP doesn’t tell us these people are good clinicians.

 

[R. Matey]

Respectfully, I’m not sure what I said to make you believe I’m anticipating that majority response. I’m simply just searching for any/all opinions. If you reject both programs, I welcome that.

I would assume the reasons you chose to become a psychologist instead of doing philanthropic work on top of an unrelated job field are similar to my reasons for not wanting to do so. Intellectual fulfillment being the main reason that comes to mind.

Ok, then. Well, others might disagree, but in my opinion, your long term goals can be best met with an MSW degree, which will grant you a good deal of flexibility at a fraction of the costs you listed. Social workers have opportunities to specialize during their post-master's licensing hours and, depending on where you do those hours, can make you a highly qualified clinician. Social workers are common in the ideal settings you listed and you likely wouldn't have to move for internship and postdoc. Hence, you could settle down faster.

As far as brand name schools go, note that brand names aren't always synonymous with quality when it comes to clinical work, especially in the case of an online program. This has been discussed somewhat frequently on the MSW/LPC board, so I encourage you to check there for pros and cons of what you're proposing: the gist is that the quality of supervision is highly variable, more so than it already is for a master's level program, thus not making it worth the cost. At least that's my position.

There might be some ennui associated with "not going all the way" if you were to become a master's level clinician but I encourage you examine that closely if there is. There are many social workers that I and others hold in high regard as highly qualified clinicians. The ire you might've read towards mid-levels here is more directed at those who insist on using pseudo-science in their practice.

Oh, as far as intellectual fulfillment goes, you may find psychotherapy a disappointing career choice for this particular intrinsic motivator since it can be quite repetitive and progress can often feel glacial. There are also actors (e.g., healthcare administrators) outside of psychotherapy that influence the overall process depending on where you work. For some people, that lack of autonomy is frustrating.

 

[Hiddy]

The Northwestern PhD program has a licensure rate of 80% because only 80% of their graduates sought licensure (the others presumably having gone into academia or research). Of those who did, 100% or near 100% passed the EPPP and successfully got licensed. The Chicago 80% licensure rate means 20% of their graduates failed the EPPP or were otherwise unable to achieve licensure...which we can reasonably assume since they almost certainly didn't choose to forgo licensure altogether in lieu of pursuing a career in research or academia with a PsyD from the Chicago School (based on the fact that they full-on sell themselves as a school for prospective clinicians). You cannot just look at the percentage of recent graduates who became licensed, you need to look at the percentage of those who sought licensures and who successfully became licensed. You also have to take the Ns from each school into account. If 5 people took the EPPP from Program A and only 4 passed it (80% success rate), that doesn't tell us nearly as much about the quality of Program A as if 200 people took the EPPP from Program B and only 160 passed it (80% success rate). In one case, you may be able to write it off as one student who was test anxious or unprepared...in the other case, you have a demonstrable pattern.

Thanks for explaining. That makes sense.

 

[VirginiaIsForLovers]

The Northwestern (NU) grads I've worked with have had good quality training, but those are the students who go through the on-campus program. The cohorts are smaller so you get a lot of individualized attention. The online program I believe is taught by different faculty, so I cannot speak about the academic side of things. My understanding is the online cohort is large, and sometimes it is difficult to find clinical internships due to being online. Could you do the in-person program in Evanston? They have a clinic (Bette Harris - The Family Institute) where you would get most of your clinical hours, the supervision is good, and there are multiple in-house training sites, perhaps one is closer to home for you.

I do agree with what others are saying though in terms of the prestige behind a name. End of the day, no one will care, as long as you get good training and experience, that will matter the most. But I'm not going to try to persuade you otherwise since it seems like NU has been your dream school and the name matters to you.

If you're trying to practice independently, the most important thing will be licensure. The NU program (2 years) will prepare you for your first exam (if you stay in IL) to get provisionally licensed (LPC), then you'll have to practice under supervision for another 2-3 years (full-time) to accrue enough hours to take another exam for your full licensure (LCPC), so a total of 4-5 years to start practicing independently. I would read up a bit more about job descriptions between counselors and psychologist, which settings they are typically hired in, etc. There are also minor differences in reimbursement (Medicare does not reimburse counselors, only Psychologist and Social Work). Another program to consider in Chicago if prestige is important is: The Master's Program in Social work, Social Policy, and Social Administration at The University of Chicago (Clinical Track). Timeline for LCSW and LCPC are similar, but I personally think you can do more with an LCSW.

 

[R. Matey]

do agree with what others are saying though in terms of the prestige behind a name. End of the day, no one will care, as long as you get good training and experience, that will matter the most. But I'm not going to try to persuade you otherwise since it seems like NU has been your dream school and the name matters to you.

First, I largely agree with you, but I also get the impression that posts like these are akin to telling the OP "spend a 100k on a master's degree if you want, it's your funeral," which I feel has become an increasingly common attitude in these unfunded Psy.D. threads. The problem here is others reading these threads who are not the OP get the false impression that choosing a unfunded Psy.D. (or expensive boutique master's program) is really just a personal preference rather than an investment with devastating financial consequences. I understand that we can't stop people from making foolish decisions completely by merely arguing with them on the internet, but laying out the case against these types of predatory programs repeatedly likely provides lurkers with adequate career information from which to base a decision.

 

[Hiddy]

There might be some ennui associated with "not going all the way" if you were to become a master's level clinician but I encourage you examine that closely if there is.

I feel this strongly. A bit of a black-of-white thinker, I feel as if I must go "all the way" in order to be successful. While I can see the flaw in the logic, it feels very real. I've never heard anyone else address it. If you have any tips on how to overcome this I would appreciate it.

 

[Hiddy]

The Northwestern (NU) grads I've worked with have had good quality training, but those are the students who go through the on-campus program. The cohorts are smaller so you get a lot of individualized attention. The online program I believe is taught by different faculty, so I cannot speak about the academic side of things. My understanding is the online cohort is large, and sometimes it is difficult to find clinical internships due to being online. Could you do the in-person program in Evanston? They have a clinic (Bette Harris - The Family Institute) where you would get most of your clinical hours, the supervision is good, and there are multiple in-house training sites, perhaps one is closer to home for you.

I do agree with what others are saying though in terms of the prestige behind a name. End of the day, no one will care, as long as you get good training and experience, that will matter the most. But I'm not going to try to persuade you otherwise since it seems like NU has been your dream school and the name matters to you.

If you're trying to practice independently, the most important thing will be licensure. The NU program (2 years) will prepare you for your first exam (if you stay in IL) to get provisionally licensed (LPC), then you'll have to practice under supervision for another 2-3 years (full-time) to accrue enough hours to take another exam for your full licensure (LCPC), so a total of 4-5 years to start practicing independently. I would read up a bit more about job descriptions between counselors and psychologist, which settings they are typically hired in, etc. There are also minor differences in reimbursement (Medicare does not reimburse counselors, only Psychologist and Social Work). Another program to consider in Chicago if prestige is important is: The Master's Program in Social work, Social Policy, and Social Administration at The University of Chicago (Clinical Track). Timeline for LCSW and LCPC are similar, but I personally think you can do more with an LCSW.

Thanks for the insight.

I will not be able to do the in-person program at NU unless I apply to the in-person program specifically. Which, unless I'm mistaken, I would have to wait a whole year to do. Not a hard no, but considering I may not even get in, I'm not sure I'm willing to wait another year for the off-chance of being accepted to the in-person program.

Regarding the clinical internship, I have a site in mind that I believe will qualify. There is a private group practice near me owned by a PsyD. I did a career interview with her while I was exploring different career options. This was a great networking opportunity as well. She and I made a connection and she offered to supervise me for any practicum or internship I may have, and even offered to employ me once I am licensed. Her practice is successful with great reviews, and has several locations throughout Illinois. So I trust she would be a good clinical supervisor. I asked the director of the NU program if I would be able to do my practicum and/or internship there. They said yes. I wonder if this changes your opinion at all regarding the online program at NU?

Regarding your suggestion to pursue Social Work instead, I've read this suggestion many times on here. I understand the allure, but if I'm only interested in the clinical side of that degree (i.e. psychotherapy and theory), is the degree still something I should pursue. I've looked over several MSW curricula, most recently your UofC suggestion, and while the clinical courses seem right up my alley, there are a good number of courses which I have no interest in. Further, I'm not sure I'll be happy working with the populations this degree will train me to work with (at least early on in my career). I understand I can perform therapy once I become am an LCSW, but I'm not sure I'd enjoy doing therapy with people who are court ordered to go to therapy, or who are otherwise obligated to be in therapy. I'd ideally like to perform therapy with people who want to be there - people who actually want the help. Maybe I'm ignorant to the actual outcomes of this degree. If so, please inform me.

 

[Hiddy]

First, I largely agree with you, but I also get the impression that posts like these are akin to telling the OP "spend a 100k on a master's degree if you want, it's your funeral," which I feel has become an increasingly common attitude in these unfunded Psy.D. threads. The problem here is others reading these threads who are not the OP get the false impression that choosing a unfunded Psy.D. (or expensive boutique master's program) is really just a personal preference rather than an investment with devastating financial consequences. I understand that we can't stop people from making foolish decisions completely by merely arguing with them on the internet, but laying out the case against these types of predatory programs repeatedly likely provides lurkers with adequate career information from which to base a decision.

I'd like to know your thoughts on IBR, namely, PAYE. It's my understanding that with this repayment method, my payments would be low enough to still be manageable (~$350/month) and to still have a reasonable DTI ratio, allowing me to still qualify for a mortgage, business loan, etc. Furthermore, the remaining debt is forgiven after 20 years of payments. I'd like to know your thoughts on this option.

 

[Sanman]

I'd like to know your thoughts on IBR, namely, PAYE. It's my understanding that with this repayment method, my payments would be low enough to still be manageable (~$350/month) and to still have a reasonable DTI ratio, allowing me to still qualify for a mortgage, business loan, etc. Furthermore, the remaining debt is forgiven after 20 years of payments. I'd like to know your thoughts on this option.

One is 20 years the other is 25 years. The piece you have not mentioned is the tax bomb. If your 300k debt balloons to 600k over 20 years and you only pay the interest, you will owe taxes on your income +600k. That would work out to about $250k in taxes that you need to pay the federal government when this is forgiven.

 

[PsyDuck90]

Thanks for the insight.

I will not be able to do the in-person program at NU unless I apply to the in-person program specifically. Which, unless I'm mistaken, I would have to wait a whole year to do. Not a hard no, but considering I may not even get in, I'm not sure I'm willing to wait another year for the off-chance of being accepted to the in-person program.

Regarding the clinical internship, I have a site in mind that I believe will qualify. There is a private group practice near me owned by a PsyD. I did a career interview with her while I was exploring different career options. This was a great networking opportunity as well. She and I made a connection and she offered to supervise me for any practicum or internship I may have, and even offered to employ me once I am licensed. Her practice is successful with great reviews, and has several locations throughout Illinois. So I trust she would be a good clinical supervisor. I asked the director of the NU program if I would be able to do my practicum and/or internship there. They said yes. I wonder if this changes your opinion at all regarding the online program at NU?

Regarding your suggestion to pursue Social Work instead, I've read this suggestion many times on here. I understand the allure, but if I'm only interested in the clinical side of that degree (i.e. psychotherapy and theory), is the degree still something I should pursue. I've looked over several MSW curricula, most recently your UofC suggestion, and while the clinical courses seem right up my alley, there are a good number of courses which I have no interest in. Further, I'm not sure I'll be happy working with the populations this degree will train me to work with (at least early on in my career). I understand I can perform therapy once I become am an LCSW, but I'm not sure I'd enjoy doing therapy with people who are court ordered to go to therapy, or who are otherwise obligated to be in therapy. I'd ideally like to perform therapy with people who want to be there - people who actually want the help. Maybe I'm ignorant to the actual outcomes of this degree. If so, please inform me.

Social workers can work with the exact same populations as counselors. The main difference is that social workers can bill Medicare, which makes them more attractive for hospital systems. There's also a greater emphasis on admin training in grad school so if you decide to move into a more administrative role in the future, it tends to be a bit easier.

By and large, no mental health degree is worth a six-figure debt, whether PsyD, LPC, or LCSW. The salaries just aren't there. Also, the lay public generally doesn't know the difference between any of the mental health degrees, including psychiatrists, in my experience at least. Also, you don't want to be dependent on IBR because that can go away at any time if the government wants to shut it down, so banking on that being available in 2 decades is a dangerous game.

 

[thebalmofhurtminds]

I would also argue that "only" $350/month extra in payments would be really limiting with this salary.

 

[R. Matey]

I feel this strongly. A bit of a black-of-white thinker, I feel as if I must go "all the way" in order to be successful. While I can see the flaw in the logic, it feels very real. I've never heard anyone else address it. If you have any tips on how to overcome this I would appreciate it.

It's an understandable feeling, and I'd be lying if I said that psychologists didn't enjoy perks that master's level clinicians don't. However, from what you've shared regarding your goals, a Psy.D. or expensive master's program is just unnecessary. Working through that feeling might include exploring the valuation you place on a clinical doctorate above a master's degree + adequate training experiences. What will the Psy.D. get you that this path wouldn't? Would you call a social worker in a niche PP making 80-100K annually a failure because they don't have a doctorate?

Regarding your suggestion to pursue Social Work instead, I've read this suggestion many times on here. I understand the allure, but if I'm only interested in the clinical side of that degree (i.e. psychotherapy and theory), is the degree still something I should pursue. I've looked over several MSW curricula, most recently your UofC suggestion, and while the clinical courses seem right up my alley, there are a good number of courses which I have no interest in. Further, I'm not sure I'll be happy working with the populations this degree will train me to work with (at least early on in my career). I understand I can perform therapy once I become am an LCSW, but I'm not sure I'd enjoy doing therapy with people who are court ordered to go to therapy, or who are otherwise obligated to be in therapy. I'd ideally like to perform therapy with people who want to be there - people who actually want the help. Maybe I'm ignorant to the actual outcomes of this degree. If so, please inform me.

You might have a difficult time early in your career avoiding mandated patients regardless of whether you're a psychologist or a social worker. Licensure will give you the freedom to hone a niche, but the clinical setting largely dictates the clientele.

 

[VirginiaIsForLovers]

First, I largely agree with you, but I also get the impression that posts like these are akin to telling the OP "spend a 100k on a master's degree if you want, it's your funeral," which I feel has become an increasingly common attitude in these unfunded Psy.D. threads. The problem here is others reading these threads who are not the OP get the false impression that choosing a unfunded Psy.D. (or expensive boutique master's program) is really just a personal preference rather than an investment with devastating financial consequences. I understand that we can't stop people from making foolish decisions completely by merely arguing with them on the internet, but laying out the case against these types of predatory programs repeatedly likely provides lurkers with adequate career information from which to base a decision.

Completely agree - I'm just not good with the tough love thing.

Social workers can work with the exact same populations as counselors. The main difference is that social workers can bill Medicare, which makes them more attractive for hospital systems. There's also a greater emphasis on admin training in grad school so if you decide to move into a more administrative role in the future, it tends to be a bit easier.

By and large, no mental health degree is worth a six-figure debt, whether PsyD, LPC, or LCSW. The salaries just aren't there. Also, the lay public generally doesn't know the difference between any of the mental health degrees, including psychiatrists, in my experience at least. Also, you don't want to be dependent on IBR because that can go away at any time if the government wants to shut it down, so banking on that being available in 2 decades is a dangerous game.

THIS, THIS, THIS.. I've worked with great and not so great providers from all disciplines. I too thought that SW was case management and working at non-profits and doing court mandated work, but it's so much more. I work for a large hospital system, with hopes to go into admin, but our department is run by psychiatrists and SW.

Many people become LCSW and go into private practice, and can bill Medicare so they are more attractive for not only PP but various health systems/organizations.

 

[summerbabe]

A bit of a black-of-white thinker, I feel as if I must go "all the way" in order to be successful. While I can see the flaw in the logic, it feels very real.

We can choose to define success in a lot of ways. Financially, relationally, intrinsic satisfaction, recognition, certifications, achievement/completing tasks, etc.

There’s nothing wrong with wanting to receive the highest level of training or education possible and be recognized with a professional title. But hopefully it doesn’t come at the cost of too many other things you also value, which could result in regret and self-blame. So some reflection about what you value now versus what you may always value might help determine the appropriate degree of sacrifice might be appropriate.

As @Sanman mentioned, the tax bomb could be significant so between that, the payments you make over 20/25 years and interest acrued, the total amount forgiven is likely lower than what you’re currently anticipating. Nor should IBR be seen as a magic bullet solution to allow bypassing other important considerations.

 

[psycle708]

I've looked over several MSW curricula, most recently your UofC suggestion, and while the clinical courses seem right up my alley, there are a good number of courses which I have no interest in.

What percentage of courses would you not be interested in? Would these courses provide information that informs your perspective on various populations, systems, or types of clinical work? I'm in a clinical psych program and have found that there are definitely classes that I'm not so much into, but I recognize that they give me a well-rounded understanding of the field and will inform my practice in some way, even if the connection to my future work is not as direct. Just something to consider as you review curricula (of any type of program!).

 

[psych.meout]

Regarding your suggestion to pursue Social Work instead, I've read this suggestion many times on here. I understand the allure, but if I'm only interested in the clinical side of that degree (i.e. psychotherapy and theory), is the degree still something I should pursue. I've looked over several MSW curricula, most recently your UofC suggestion, and while the clinical courses seem right up my alley, there are a good number of courses which I have no interest in. Further, I'm not sure I'll be happy working with the populations this degree will train me to work with (at least early on in my career). I understand I can perform therapy once I become am an LCSW, but I'm not sure I'd enjoy doing therapy with people who are court ordered to go to therapy, or who are otherwise obligated to be in therapy. I'd ideally like to perform therapy with people who want to be there - people who actually want the help. Maybe I'm ignorant to the actual outcomes of this degree. If so, please inform me.

This isn't how it works. In any degree path there are going to be courses that are more or less interesting to you and even those you hate. You shouldn't pick or avoid a degree because there might be some courses you don't like. Also, just because you don't like or aren't interested in a course doesn't mean there is nothing you can learn from it.

 

[Sanman]

Regarding your suggestion to pursue Social Work instead, I've read this suggestion many times on here. I understand the allure, but if I'm only interested in the clinical side of that degree (i.e. psychotherapy and theory), is the degree still something I should pursue. I've looked over several MSW curricula, most recently your UofC suggestion, and while the clinical courses seem right up my alley, there are a good number of courses which I have no interest in. Further, I'm not sure I'll be happy working with the populations this degree will train me to work with (at least early on in my career). I understand I can perform therapy once I become am an LCSW, but I'm not sure I'd enjoy doing therapy with people who are court ordered to go to therapy, or who are otherwise obligated to be in therapy. I'd ideally like to perform therapy with people who want to be there - people who actually want the help. Maybe I'm ignorant to the actual outcomes of this degree. If so, please inform me.

This question is up to you. @PsyDuck90 explained the advantages of the MSW over a counseling degree. If you want to pursue a degree with fewer advantages because you don't want to sit through those courses, you are entitled to that choice. I had no interest in becoming a researcher, but I spent years conducting research and writing it up in exchange for not paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for a professional school PsyD that avoided a dissertation and research assistantships. Plenty of folks who went the other way begging Biden for student loan forgiveness. It comes down to your priorities.

 

[EnPsychlopedia]

This isn't how it works. In any degree path there are going to be courses that are more or less interesting to you and even those you hate. You shouldn't pick or avoid a degree because there might be some courses you don't like. Also, just because you don't like or aren't interested in a course doesn't mean there is nothing you can learn from it.

Believe me, if I could have skipped that damned undergraduate Communications course...but I did learn from it!

 

[psych.meout]

Believe me, if I could have skipped that damned undergraduate Communications course...but I did learn from it!

I had to take a speech and communication course in order to graduate when I was in undergrad. I was dreading it in the lead up and the first few weeks of class but it was lifechanging. I had a little social anxiety before that (hence the dread) and it ended up being like exposure therapy. The book was really good too and in retrospect it was drawing quite a bit from CBT, e.g., cognitive restructuring of common fears about socializing and public speaking.

 

[EnPsychlopedia]

I had to take a speech and communication course in order to graduate when I was in undergrad. I was dreading it in the lead up and the first few weeks of class but it was lifechanging. I had a little social anxiety before that (hence the dread) and it ended up being like exposure therapy. The book was really good too and in retrospect it was drawing quite a bit from CBT, e.g., cognitive restructuring of common fears about socializing and public speaking.

It wasn't even anxiety for me...just didn't want to take the class haha

 

[Temperance]

I'd like to know your thoughts on IBR, namely, PAYE. It's my understanding that with this repayment method, my payments would be low enough to still be manageable (~$350/month) and to still have a reasonable DTI ratio, allowing me to still qualify for a mortgage, business loan, etc. Furthermore, the remaining debt is forgiven after 20 years of payments. I'd like to know your thoughts on this option.

This thread goes into the financials of going to an unfunded Psy.D. program: A PsyD story (mostly $$$ talk)

There's a link in the opening post of that thread that talks about the increase in loan principal if you take IBR/PAYE options, especially as it relates to the increase in the tax bomb at the end when the loans are forgiven. Also, keep in mind that taking this option assumes that the IBR programs will even last 20+ years, which isn't a guarantee.

 

[Sanman]

I had to take a speech and communication course in order to graduate when I was in undergrad. I was dreading it in the lead up and the first few weeks of class but it was lifechanging. I had a little social anxiety before that (hence the dread) and it ended up being like exposure therapy. The book was really good too and in retrospect it was drawing quite a bit from CBT, e.g., cognitive restructuring of common fears about socializing and public speaking.

I had to take one of those too. Dang class ruined a perfect semester gpa...stupid 3.97. I still have flashbacks.

 

[pediatric_psydoc]

I'd like to know your thoughts on IBR, namely, PAYE. It's my understanding that with this repayment method, my payments would be low enough to still be manageable (~$350/month) and to still have a reasonable DTI ratio, allowing me to still qualify for a mortgage, business loan, etc. Furthermore, the remaining debt is forgiven after 20 years of payments. I'd like to know your thoughts on this option.

How do you figure it will stay $350/month over 20 years? The payment depends on your AGI and the number of dependents you claimed. Your AGI is dependent on so many different factors. If you are earning, say $140,000/yr and have 2 dependents, your payment could be closer to $1,000/month. $350 is a very low estimate (they have loan payment simulators that can tell you this. I found this information quickly through that).

There is also no guarantee that mortgage companies will continue to accept the IDR payment value as the debt they factor into the DTI. As I mentioned previously, them accepting the IDR payment value rather than using 1% principle as the monthly payment just changed within the past year or so.

 

[Sanman]

How do you figure it will stay $350/month over 20 years? The payment depends on your AGI and your dependents. Your AGI is dependent on so many different factors. If you are earning, say $140,000/yr and have 2 dependents, your payment could be closer to $1,000/month. $350 is a very low estimate (they have loan stimulators that can tell you this. I found this information quickly through that).

There is also no guarantee that mortgage companies will continue to accept the IDR payment value as the debt they factor into the DTI. As I mentioned previously, them accepting the IDR payment value rather than using 1% principle as the monthly payment just changed within the past year or so.

One other thought about payment calculations, marriage can blow up that entire plan as AGI can be high but debt obligations can eat up a lot if you both owe a significant loan debt.

 

[pediatric_psydoc]

One other thought about payment calculations, marriage can blow up that entire plan as AGI can be high but debt obligations can eat up a lot if you both owe a significant loan debt.

Good point. I think that if you file taxes separately, the spouse’s income isn’t a factor, but I am not 100% sure on this. Of course, if you file taxes separately that doesn’t allow you the tax benefits that comes with filing jointly.

OP, you may feel like we are splitting hairs, but I bring these points up just so you consider the enormous ramifications of these decisions if you do decide to take out these loans.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I just wanted to add that I was 36 when I started my doctorate degree so being 33 isn’t a bad start and taking a year or two to make this decision could make a lot of sense. I wasn’t geographically flexible until I realized I had to be for internship. That was my biggest mistake and it cost me a lot of extra debt. That being said, if psychological research holds no interest for a person, then psychologist path isn’t for them.

 

[Hiddy]

How do you figure it will stay $350/month over 20 years? The payment depends on your AGI and the number of dependents you claimed. Your AGI is dependent on so many different factors. If you are earning, say $140,000/yr and have 2 dependents, your payment could be closer to $1,000/month. $350 is a very low estimate (they have loan payment simulators that can tell you this. I found this information quickly through that).

I appreciate the analysis. However, I never stated I assumed $350/month would be my payment each year for 20 years. I ball parked ~$350/month as the average monthly payment across those twenty years by just eyeing the first few years' payments.

For a more precise estimate, I assumed a $35k salary during my post-doc internship year, then a starting salary of $60k the following year. From there, I assumed a 3% increase in salary each year. This brings my salary to a range of $60k to $102k for the 19 years after my $35k internship year. Using these figures, I used the 2022 poverty guidelines of a 2 person household ($18,310/year) found here, Poverty Guidelines. Using this guideline, I found my discretionary income using the discretionary income formula, which can be found here, How To Calculate Discretionary Income | Bankrate. I then took 10% of that discretionary income and divided it by 12 months to get my monthly payments. I plugged that entire function into a spreadsheet table to determine my monthly payment per my salary for each of the 20 years after graduation (including internship year). The payments range from $63.79/month, during my $35k internship year, to $622.34/month during my 20th year at a $102,146 salary.

The average payment, assuming I file separately from my wife each year, is approximately $413.68/month. That payment goes lower as my household size increases since my discretionary income would be lower.

I understand I made several assumptions here, but I believe this is a realistic estimate. I intended to low-ball the salary a bit, at least for the years after my internship year, but correct me if I'm wrong. Would you agree that this is a low-balled salary spread over 20 years? What would you say is a more realistic salary over those years? For context, I plan to work in Chicago and it's collar suburbs.

 

[Hiddy]

One other thought about payment calculations, marriage can blow up that entire plan as AGI can be high but debt obligations can eat up a lot if you both owe a significant loan debt.

I am assuming I'll be married those 20 years. However, she doesn't have any significant debt to date and I plan for us to file separately during my repayment years as it significantly lowers the monthly payment amount. I was initially concerned with the tax penalty that comes along with that decision, but I researched online and asked a few of my accountant friends and came to the conclusion that there technically is no penalty anymore for filing separately. The pros and cons of doing so vary by ones particular situation. In my case, I believe it would be beneficial to file separately during my repayment years. Here's a quick reference I just found if you're interested. Married Filing Separately Disadvantages | H&R Block.

 

[Hiddy]

Good point. I think that if you file taxes separately, the spouse’s income isn’t a factor, but I am not 100% sure on this. Of course, if you file taxes separately that doesn’t allow you the tax benefits that comes with filing jointly.

OP, you may feel like we are splitting hairs, but I bring these points up just so you consider the enormous ramifications of these decisions if you do decide to take out these loans.

I appreciate the splitting of hairs! That's why I'm here. My response to Sanman above applies here as well (see above). You are correct, filing separately removes the spouse's income and debt from the calculation. There are disadvantages to filing separately, but contrary to my inital understanding, there is no tax penalty for doing so. The pros and cons of doing so vary per household/situation.

 

[Hiddy]

I just wanted to add that I was 36 when I started my doctorate degree so being 33 isn’t a bad start and taking a year or two to make this decision could make a lot of sense. I wasn’t geographically flexible until I realized I had to be for internship. That was my biggest mistake and it cost me a lot of extra debt. That being said, if psychological research holds no interest for a person, then psychologist path isn’t for them.

Thanks for your perspective. Do you have children? If so, did you have them before, during, or after your program?

I understand research is a huge part of being a clinical psychologist. However, after performing career interviews with numerous psychologists, social workers, and therapists, I've gathered what I believe to be a correct assumption in that a PsyD would expose me to more content and context than a masters-level program. I believe studying the field at this level allows you to become a more informed, well-rounded clinician. However, all I have to go on is the anecdotes from these professionals I've interviewed. I'm open to the fact I could be very wrong. I'd like to know your thoughts.

 

[JeyRo]

You could always just roll the dice, get the absurdly expensive unfunded degree, and hope beyond all hope that it will get forgiven via some as-yet-unmaterialized debt forgiveness scheme. There seems to be a heck of a lot of that talk going on right now in DC

 

[ClinicalABA]

Thanks for your perspective. Do you have children? If so, did you have them before, during, or after your program?

I understand research is a huge part of being a clinical psychologist. However, after performing career interviews with numerous psychologists, social workers, and therapists, I've gathered what I believe to be a correct assumption in that a PsyD will expose me to more content and context. I believe studying the field at this level allows you to become a more informed, well-rounded clinician. However, all I have to go on is the anecdotes from these professionals I've interviewed. I'm open to the fact I could be very wrong. I'd like to know your thoughts.

A PsyD WILL NOT expose you to more content and context than a Ph.D. program. This is, at best, a misconception. It's more likely a lie propagated in part to separate you from large sums of money without even considering other options. Most folks with Ph.D.s in clinical psych go on to work in clinical applied settings, doing little to no research. PsyD program marketing literature (particularly from the more predatory/expensive places) often mistates that Ph.D. is for researchers, and the PsyD is for clinicians. That's just not true. There are some Ph.D. programs that ARE geared almost exclusively to preparing students for academic careers. These are often called "clinical scientist" model programs, and their application materials will clearly state that the program is not designed to prepare clinicians. These programs are decidely not the norm- most Ph.D. clinical programs are going to be "scientist-practitioner" model, geared towards preparing graduates (most of who will go on to clinical careers, though some will take the academic path) with good foundation in the scientific principles behind clinical psychology, an understanding of how to- at the very least- consume the research literature, AND the ability to implement sound and effective clinical procedures.

A Ph.D. program may not ultimately be for you, but the decision to not consider one and take on STUPID debt (or spend huge ammounts of your or someone else'ssavings) should be based on facts and not myths- particularly myths spread by programs that want to take your money.

 

[Hiddy]

A PsyD WILL NOT expose you to more content and context than a Ph.D. program. This is, at best, a misconception. It's more likely a lie propagated in part to separate you from large sums of money without even considering other options. Most folks with Ph.D.s in clinical psych go on to work in clinical applied settings, doing little to no research. PsyD program marketing literature (particularly from the more predatory/expensive places) often mistates that Ph.D. is for researchers, and the PsyD is for clinicians. That's just not true. There are some Ph.D. programs that ARE geared almost exclusively to preparing students for academic careers. These are often called "clinical scientist" model programs, and their application materials will clearly state that the program is not designed to prepare clinicians. These programs are decidely not the norm- most Ph.D. clinical programs are going to be "scientist-practitioner" model, geared towards preparing graduates (most of who will go on to clinical careers, though some will take the academic path) with good foundation in the scientific principles behind clinical psychology, an understanding of how to- at the very least- consume the research literature, AND the ability to implement sound and effective clinical procedures.

A Ph.D. program may not ultimately be for you, but the decision to not consider one and take on STUPID debt (or spend huge ammounts of your or someone else'ssavings) should be based on facts and not myths- particularly myths spread by programs that want to take your money.

Thank you. Forgive me for my lack of clarification. I was comparing the content and context of PsyD programs to that of masters-level programs, not PhD programs. I don’t believe PsyD programs provide more content or context than PhD programs.

 

[JeyRo]

I'll be totally frank. I'm pushing 50 years old myself. Many years ago I did a dumb thing and, feeling aimless and frustrated I applied to an obscenely expensive, unfunded professional school and got my doctorate. Ended up with around 150K of debt IIRC (these days, at the same school I graduated from, students regularly graduate with over 300K of debt).

In retrospect, it was an absurd idea. But - due to my timing, I was able to consolidate into a repayment program with a 1.625% interest rate (yeah, crazy). Then I got a job with the VA and recently applied for the PSLF under the one-year waiver program, and miracle of miracles, got almost 80K of the remaining balance forgiven.

I basically ran the table in terms of being lucky and having good timing. I got the crazy low interest rate, I got the VA job, and then due to this crazy time in history we're in, got the PSLF forgiveness (even though under the previous, non-waiver rules I would have never qualified).

Awesome, right?

Honestly, I'd be awfully nervous trying to just bet on the economic stars aligning like that ever again for anyone currently contemplating a clinical psychology doctoral degree..... but it's hard for me to advise against it categorically, given my own experience.

 

[Hiddy]

I'll be totally frank. I'm pushing 50 years old myself. Many years ago I did a dumb thing and, feeling aimless and frustrated I applied to an obscenely expensive, unfunded professional school and got my doctorate. Ended up with around 150K of debt IIRC (these days, at the same school I graduated from, students regularly graduate with over 300K of debt).

In retrospect, it was an absurd idea. But - due to my timing, I was able to consolidate into a repayment program with a 1.625% interest rate (yeah, crazy). Then I got a job with the VA and recently applied for the PSLF under the one-year waiver program, and miracle of miracles, got almost 80K of the remaining balance forgiven.

I basically ran the table in terms of being lucky and having good timing. I got the crazy low interest rate, I got the VA job, and then due to this crazy time in history we're in, got the PSLF forgiveness (even though under the previous, non-waiver rules I would have never qualified).

Awesome, right?

Honestly, I'd be awfully nervous trying to just bet on the economic stars aligning like that ever again for anyone currently contemplating a clinical psychology doctoral degree..... but it's hard for me to advise against it categorically, given my own experience.

Interesting. Just curious, what would you do different if you could go back to that time? Assuming you didn't receive the loan forgiveness. Were you in a position where you felt like Clinical Psychology was the only option for you, or did you have other options you were debating? Prior to receiving the forgiveness, did you regret your decisions, or was your career fulfillment worth the debt?

 

[EnPsychlopedia]

Thank you. Forgive me for my lack of clarification. I was comparing the content and context of PsyD programs to that of masters-level programs, not PhD programs. I don’t believe PsyD programs provide more content or context than PhD programs.

While I think it is generally true that a (read: good) doctoral program (in your case, a PsyD) will prepare one to be a more expert-minded, specialist-able clinician than a (read: average) master's program, it's pretty important to point out that the Chicago School is certainly well below the median in terms of student outcomes.

Further, I think it's important to point out that literally no one can be everything for their patients. Midlevels cannot do standardized assessment and arguably don't have the training, generally, to specialize in highly specific niches. Psychologists (for the most part) cannot prescribe, and when they can it is very limited...not to mention the costs of training (even if do a fully funded program, there are opportunity costs involved, such as lost wages you could have earned by going the shorter route and earning a salary sooner). Psychiatrists rarely do psychotherapy (and those who do often aren't great at it) and also aren't usually trained in standardized assessment. Any path you choose is going to limit you to practicing within a certain scope or niche, and none of them are going to offer you a perfect lifestyle or perfect fit for what you want in terms of a balance between being practical/affordable/financially smart/attainable, being fulfilling, and giving you the exact scope of practice you prefer, especially if you are geographically inflexible. When it comes down to brass tacks, the pursuit of being at the highest level of your chosen field is understandable and noble, but it should not be the sole driving force behind life-altering decisions.

 

[pediatric_psydoc]

I appreciate the analysis. However, I never stated I assumed $350/month would be my payment each year for 20 years. I ball parked ~$350/month as the average monthly payment across those twenty years by just eyeing the first few years' payments.

For a more precise estimate, I assumed a $35k salary during my post-doc internship year, then a starting salary of $60k the following year. From there, I assumed a 3% increase in salary each year. This brings my salary to a range of $60k to $102k for the 19 years after my $35k internship year. Using these figures, I used the 2022 poverty guidelines of a 2 person household ($18,310/year) found here, Poverty Guidelines. Using this guideline, I found my discretionary income using the discretionary income formula, which can be found here, How To Calculate Discretionary Income | Bankrate. I then took 10% of that discretionary income and divided it by 12 months to get my monthly payments. I plugged that entire function into a spreadsheet table to determine my monthly payment per my salary for each of the 20 years after graduation (including internship year). The payments range from $63.79/month, during my $35k internship year, to $622.34/month during my 20th year at a $102,146 salary.

The average payment, assuming I file separately from my wife each year, is approximately $413.68/month. That payment goes lower as my household size increases since my discretionary income would be lower.

I understand I made several assumptions here, but I believe this is a realistic estimate. I intended to low-ball the salary a bit, at least for the years after my internship year, but correct me if I'm wrong. Would you agree that this is a low-balled salary spread over 20 years? What would you say is a more realistic salary over those years? For context, I plan to work in Chicago and it's collar suburbs.

It’s hard to say because if you move to an area with higher cost of living, go into a director job, or change practice settings your income can change.

Just as an example: my postdoc salary was $60,000, then first year licensed was $75,000, second year I got a raise and I made $87,000, and then I switched jobs my third year and I currently make $123,900 and am set to get a raise that will put me at $128,000 in August. So technically my income doubled in 3 years.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Thanks for your perspective. Do you have children? If so, did you have them before, during, or after your program?

I understand research is a huge part of being a clinical psychologist. However, after performing career interviews with numerous psychologists, social workers, and therapists, I've gathered what I believe to be a correct assumption in that a PsyD would expose me to more content and context than a masters-level program. I believe studying the field at this level allows you to become a more informed, well-rounded clinician. However, all I have to go on is the anecdotes from these professionals I've interviewed. I'm open to the fact I could be very wrong. I'd like to know your thoughts.

I had a long talk about the importance of research to the development of professional identity and skill set of a psychologist with a prospective psychology student who is working for me right now. To sum it up, even though I mistakenly went to a scholar practitioner program, I think of myself as a scientist. The two models are scientist practitioner vs scholar practitioner either choice means solid understanding and ability to critically apply the research. I lean toward the science side of it myself and think that it leads to better clinical decision making and that knowing how to conduct the research helps one be able to assess and apply the research better. There is a lot more I could say about this, trust me, but I’m typing with thumbs. 🤷

Actually, let me make another point, the brilliant psychiatrist that was paying me 130k a year to run his program and provide clinical advice was doing this because he recognized my ability to think critically as a psychologist and I developed that additional ability that he valued through my experience with research moreso than my clinical experience. Truth be told, our clinical skills were on par with his with the obvious strengths being related our own skill sets.

I also wanted to add that the Chicago School of PP would probably be at best a fall back program. When I applied, that fallback was another CSPP which was California School of PP now Alliant I think. Didn’t really want to go there and when I worked alongside some of their students at practicum placement was really glad that I didn’t go there. The line that captured it for me was when they said there was not a statistically significant difference between two scores on the WAIS but there was a noticeable difference. I guess that meant that they noticed that two scores that are different numbers were different numbers? One more to add, N=1 I supervised a clinican who is one of the 20% that went to Chicago and cant get licensed. Nice person and was able to help some kids, especially if they were on the autism spectrum. However, if you can’t pass the EPPP, then you can’t be a psychologist. That is the last hurdle and sometimes I wonder if other predictors of that should be thought about before investing the time and money into the doctorate.

 

[JeyRo]

Interesting. Just curious, what would you do different if you could go back to that time? Assuming you didn't receive the loan forgiveness. Were you in a position where you felt like Clinical Psychology was the only option for you, or did you have other options you were debating? Prior to receiving the forgiveness, did you regret your decisions, or was your career fulfillment worth the debt?

If I could go back in time & I was thinking more clearly about it, I would have taken much more time to qualify for a quality masters program and/or otherwise improved my chances for being competitive for a funded doctoral program. In retrospect, I might have even chosen pursuing something considerably more lucrative and/or intellectually challenging, like economics / finance (which is one of my passions).

Either way, I would take a lot more time to decide what to do, rather than simply hurtling pell-mell into heavy-duty six-figure debt.

 

[PsychPhDone]

Just adding one more data point to the opinion tally: I think social work is the way to go if you are 100% clinically minded. More employment opportunities, more reimbursement opportunities.