MD & DO co'21 Residency Panic thread

Started by kraskadva
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Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
#caps
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Wait until you are mediocre applicant applying to competitive specialty but somehow manage some top-solid programs for your top 1-10, then are forced to cap at 15...realistically you only have real at chance at 5 programs...also the programs i thot I would get interview at whether in term of competitiveness or location, I did not, so app cap also has its limitation. Again there is no perfect solution but putting limitations on applicants is not one. We all work at least 8 years toward this day...the system is ****. As applicants, why don’t we try to focus on fixing the system that is broken instead of trying to limit each other lol. One thing I learn so far is this process is stressful as hell...I can’t imagine having to limit app and/or interviews...end up not matching...n wondering what if...
 
frenchyn said:
Wait until you are mediocre applicant applying to competitive specialty but somehow manage some top-solid programs for your top 1-10, then are forced to cap at 15...realistically you only have real at chance at 5 programs...also the programs i thot I would get interview at whether in term of competitiveness or location, I did not, so app cap also has its limitation. Again there is no perfect solution but putting limitations on applicants is not one. We all work at least 8 years toward this day...the system is ****. As applicants, why don’t we try to focus on fixing the system that is broken instead of trying to limit each other lol. One thing I learn so far is this process is stressful as hell...I can’t imagine having to limit app and/or interviews...end up not matching...n wondering what if...
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#tokens
 
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frenchyn said:
Wait until you are mediocre applicant applying to competitive specialty but somehow manage some top-solid programs for your top 1-10, then are forced to cap at 15...realistically you only have real at chance at 5 programs...also the programs i thot I would get interview at whether in term of competitiveness or location, I did not, so app cap also has its limitation. Again there is no perfect solution but putting limitations on applicants is not one. We all work at least 8 years toward this day...the system is ****. As applicants, why don’t we try to focus on fixing the system that is broken instead of trying to limit each other lol. One thing I learn so far is this process is stressful as hell...I can’t imagine having to limit app and/or interviews...end up not matching...n wondering what if...
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The cap would be on interviews, not apps.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
The cap would be on interviews, not apps.
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Even with interviews...I also mentioned it above. My top 10 is top-solid programs where I looked at residents who matched there previously, I have low to no chance...if interview cap at 15...that means I only have real chance at 5...do you or anyone want to be in the position to give up your top programs to ensure match or take the risk of matching by only having real chance at 5? Also for this to work, programs will have to release interview invites at the same times.
 
frenchyn said:
Even with interviews...I also mentioned it above. My top 10 is top-solid programs where I looked at residents who matched there previously, I have low to no chance...if interview cap at 15...that means I only have real chance at 5...do you or anyone want to be in the position to give up your top programs to ensure match or take the risk of matching by only having real chance at 5? Also for this to work, programs will have to release interview invites at the same times.
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You’re applying the current cycle and then just saying you’re capped at 15. That’s not how it would work. The system could fairly easily be set up to incentivize programs to offer interviews to people they want, so getting an interview there means you have a shot.
 
Here is well thought-out video from Bryan Carmody on why application caps is superior over other methods to quell application fever. He also has another video why tokens or preference signaling may not work as intended in the long run.



 
Interview caps seems like the most logical solution for hoarding. I will admit that I went on a few more interviews than I wanted this cycle out of sheer neuroticisim about people hoarding. Vicious cycle I know.

The biggest hurdle I see for caps to work is that we would need to have thousands of programs get on the same page about releasing interview invites on the same day or the same week. Also, ERAS would need to figure out a way to monitor how many interviews have been attended. This would require a centralized scheduling system. Those are a lot of logistical hurdles to overcome, and I don't see that much effort being put in to fix the system. A much easier solution is to simply cap the number of applications however that means cutting into the AAMCs revenue and that's not going to happen.
 
frenchyn said:
Even with interviews...I also mentioned it above. My top 10 is top-solid programs where I looked at residents who matched there previously, I have low to no chance...if interview cap at 15...that means I only have real chance at 5...do you or anyone want to be in the position to give up your top programs to ensure match or take the risk of matching by only having real chance at 5? Also for this to work, programs will have to release interview invites at the same times.
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So you’re arguing that you expect you’ll fall below your #10 spot? I’ll wish you better than that since it seems like an anomalous bet against yourself.
 
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NonTrad16 said:
So you’re arguing that you expect you’ll fall below your #10 spot? I’ll wish you better than that since it seems like an anomalous bet against yourself.
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Yeah unfortunately looking at residents who matched there especially where most if not all came from JH, Harvard etc big names. Applicants from lower schools like me may get interviews but the chance to actually match there is low to none when I look at current residents, their med schools, achievement, and pubs...In surg subspec, normally, subI is how students from “lower” schools match at top programs. This year without subI programs probably rely more on apps, school name, connections, scores, pubs, etc...this is just my speculations and what I have been told at conferences/mentors...etc

Does it mean I won’t try my best? Nope. But it is an uphill battle lol...no doubt.
 
Lawpy said:
what about app tokens
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I think app tokens are a good stop-gap measure, but the real solution is application caps. I've seen everybody arguing that they got interviews from reaches and random programs they never would have applied to with application caps, but I actually think this is an argument FOR capping. The system right now is extremely random and doesn't give applicants a good way to demonstrate genuine interest. App tokens would help with that, but the overapplying still happens, which limits the programs' ability to critically review applications.
 
Ho0v-man said:
Interviews are done! My pre-interview top choice turned out to be a bunch of jerks on interview day. No clue why people invite you for an interview just to **** all over your app. Glad I didn’t travel for that noise. Honestly, if we can do something to mitigate the hoarding, these should absolutely stay virtual.
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Yay for being done! I had the opposite experience where a program I had planned to rank low, because I assumed everyone would be super full of themselves/gunners and I didn't think they could possibly be seriously interested in me compared to other candidates, wowed me. My interviewers were super nice, they literally said "we don't take gunners" as part of the interview day, and their interest in me seemed genuine. Now I'm like "Dammit, this messes with a rank list I felt I had basically sorted out."
 
Naruhodo said:
Yay for being done! I had the opposite experience where a program I had planned to rank low, because I assumed everyone would be super full of themselves/gunners and I didn't think they could possibly be seriously interested in me compared to other candidates, wowed me. My interviewers were super nice, they literally said "we don't take gunners" as part of the interview day, and their interest in me seemed genuine. Now I'm like "Dammit, this messes with a rank list I felt I had basically sorted out."
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I actually had that same experience earlier this month at another program. Didn’t even want to bother with it and now it’s my number 1.
 
Naruhodo said:
Yay for being done! I had the opposite experience where a program I had planned to rank low, because I assumed everyone would be super full of themselves/gunners and I didn't think they could possibly be seriously interested in me compared to other candidates, wowed me. My interviewers were super nice, they literally said "we don't take gunners" as part of the interview day, and their interest in me seemed genuine. Now I'm like "Dammit, this messes with a rank list I felt I had basically sorted out."
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That’s a good problem to have!
 
Cauchy said:
This argument is always interesting to me because it places the interests of the most privileged 5-10% above the interests of the other 90-95% The majority of people won’t hit the interview cap and will be benefited by having the opportunity to go on more interviews. And those that do end up hitting the cap will not even be disadvantaged meaningfully in my view because they will already have an abundance of choice before hitting the cap.
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If by “privileged” you mean higher step scores, better research, outstanding ECs, AOA membership.........then you’re using “privileged” wrong.

People have a choice of how to spend their time in medical school and that is reflected in the strength of their application. Using “privileged” to describe top medical students is a lazy attempt to discredit their accomplishments. I don’t come from a “privileged” background, so it irks me to be called privileged when my success is due to me busting ass these last four years.

I believe that this problem probably needs some work, but we really need to see the outcome of this cycle before moving forward.
 
frenchyn said:
Yeah unfortunately looking at residents who matched there especially where most if not all came from JH, Harvard etc big names. Applicants from lower schools like me may get interviews but the chance to actually match there is low to none when I look at current residents, their med schools, achievement, and pubs...In surg subspec, normally, subI is how students from “lower” schools match at top programs. This year without subI programs probably rely more on apps, school name, connections, scores, pubs, etc...this is just my speculations and what I have been told at conferences/mentors...etc

Does it mean I won’t try my best? Nope. But it is an uphill battle lol...no doubt.
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Bro this is just crazy. If you have 10 interviews at programs that are all matching top tier applicants then guess what? You're a top tier applicant! Programs like this aren't wasting their time interviewing people they are not seriously considering to match. Also you have no way of knowing how much selection bias is going on. It likely not that lots of low tier applicants are getting interviews and not matching. its more likely that high tier applicants are much more likely to rank a program based on prestige alone. Most average applicants or even competitive applicants from lower tier schools (MD and DO) are more likely to rank programs based on other things (ie location, vibe etc) bc they typically dont care about prestige as much. If you fall below 10 on your ranks its MUCH MUCH More likely that you're just a terrible interviewer or people dont like you as much as you think rather than you just have soo many top tier programs on your rank that are out of your league lol. I can tell you right now i'm a below average EM applicant and have been fortunate to get many invites includes some from top programs and i've never once looks at the schools of the residents or their pubs, scores etc. lol Thats so bizarre. If they interview you, then you have a chance and your perception of your own competitiveness shouldn't outweight true preference in your rank. Thats how you end up falling.
 
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Bro this is just crazy. If you have 10 interviews at programs that are all matching top tier applicants then guess what? You're a top tier applicant! Programs like this aren't wasting their time interviewing people they are not seriously considering to match. Also you have no way of knowing how much selection bias is going on. It likely not that lots of low tier applicants are getting interviews and not matching. its more likely that high tier applicants are much more likely to rank a program based on prestige alone. Most average applicants or even competitive applicants from lower tier schools (MD and DO) are more likely to rank programs based on other things (ie location, vibe etc) bc they typically dont care about prestige as much. If you fall below 10 on your ranks its MUCH MUCH More likely that you're just a terrible interviewer or people dont like you as much as you think rather than you just have soo many top tier programs on your rank that are out of your league lol. I can tell you right now i'm a below average EM applicant and have been fortunate to get many invites includes some from top programs and i've never once looks at the schools of the residents or their pubs, scores etc. lol Thats so bizarre. If they interview you, then you have a chance and your perception of your own competitiveness shouldn't outweight true preference in your rank. Thats how you end up falling.

What you said is not completely true especially for my specialty...just know I apply to a more competitive specialty than you...but I am not going to argue...I just hope we all match.
 
frenchyn said:
Bro this is just crazy. If you have 10 interviews at programs that are all matching top tier applicants then guess what? You're a top tier applicant! Programs like this aren't wasting their time interviewing people they are not seriously considering to match. Also you have no way of knowing how much selection bias is going on. It likely not that lots of low tier applicants are getting interviews and not matching. its more likely that high tier applicants are much more likely to rank a program based on prestige alone. Most average applicants or even competitive applicants from lower tier schools (MD and DO) are more likely to rank programs based on other things (ie location, vibe etc) bc they typically dont care about prestige as much. If you fall below 10 on your ranks its MUCH MUCH More likely that you're just a terrible interviewer or people dont like you as much as you think rather than you just have soo many top tier programs on your rank that are out of your league lol. I can tell you right now i'm a below average EM applicant and have been fortunate to get many invites includes some from top programs and i've never once looks at the schools of the residents or their pubs, scores etc. lol Thats so bizarre. If they interview you, then you have a chance and your perception of your own competitiveness shouldn't outweight true preference in your rank. Thats how you end up falling.


What you said is not completely true especially for my specialty...just know I apply to a more competitive specialty than you...but I am not going to argue...I just hope we all match.
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Look we all have the nerves, but the person who replied to you is probably right. You’re taking it up like 4 notches too far. What’s done is done, and whatever small field you may or may not be applying to isn’t THAT much different than the majority of other ones.

we’re all nervous, it’ll help to take a step back and not to constantly have anxiety about stuff you can’t control. What’s done is done just roll with it now. It’s all any of us can do
 
Chibucks15 said:
Look we all have the nerves, but the person who replied to you is probably right. You’re taking it up like 4 notches too far. What’s done is done, and whatever small field you may or may not be applying to isn’t THAT much different than the majority of other ones.

we’re all nervous, it’ll help to take a step back and not to constantly have anxiety about stuff you can’t control. What’s done is done just roll with it now. It’s all any of us can do
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as much as I usually disagree with frenchyn's takes (sorry frenchyn) small fields like CT and derm people do go unmatched even with 12 interviews and having excellent people skills. 🤷‍♀️ Those ultra competitive fields do make the percentage who match in their top 3 go down. I know people at my school who matched at their last choice for more competitive fields and our school says to expect it as there are so many qualified candidates competing for a small # of seats.

this is an ERAS PANIC THREAD LET US PANIC
Panic Omg GIF
 
So our admin told us that we should send letters of intent to our top 5 places. Not number one emails but emails saying “I plan to rank you very highly, would be very happy at your program for x reasons...” is this bad advice? I’ve seen that you should only send out an email to your top place. I wish all post interview communication just wasn’t a thing haha I hate having to worry about something so dumb.
 
iamarosepetal said:
as much as I usually disagree with frenchyn's takes (sorry frenchyn) small fields like CT and derm people do go unmatched even with 12 interviews and having excellent people skills. 🤷‍♀️ Those ultra competitive fields do make the percentage who match in their top 3 go down. I know people at my school who matched at their last choice for more competitive fields and our school says to expect it as there are so many qualified candidates competing for a small # of seats.

this is an ERAS PANIC THREAD LET US PANIC
Panic Omg GIF
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Idk telling people they can’t possibly understand what he/she is going through because they aren’t in the same “tier” with “top interviews in a small field” just comes off pretty condescending to me. Happy for ya French but the “top” places of any other field aren’t THAT different.

plus consistently freaking out about things out of your control is a way to go into a pretty deep anxiety spiral. Been there it ain’t fun. Roll with the punches everybody were almost through it
 
Chibucks15 said:
Idk telling people they can’t possibly understand what he/she is going through because they aren’t in the same “tier” with “top interviews in a small field” just comes off pretty condescending to me. Happy for ya French but the “top” places of any other field aren’t THAT different.

plus consistently freaking out about things out of your control is a way to go into a pretty deep anxiety spiral. Been there it ain’t fun. Roll with the punches everybody were almost through it
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I don't agree with frenchyn's wording ever but lol i'm not going to lie when I'm not a CT or a derm candidate :dead: I got interviews at t10/t20 places with my measly 23x score lmfaoooo but not even ranking them high cause i'm chasing my own happiness lol.
THIS IS AN ERAS PANIC THREAD I rather let people panic on here than you know simmer in the abyss
 
redsox93 said:
So our admin told us that we should send letters of intent to our top 5 places. Not number one emails but emails saying “I plan to rank you very highly, would be very happy at your program for x reasons...” is this bad advice? I’ve seen that you should only send out an email to your top place. I wish all post interview communication just wasn’t a thing haha I hate having to worry about something so dumb.
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This sounds dumb. There’s PDs on this site that have said that “rank highly” means nothing and might even come off negatively. Sounds like a typical admin thinking they’re smart despite never going through any of this.

SDNs been waaay better informed on what to do than my schools admin for 3.5 years now. I’m not gonna start listening to admin now.
 
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Ho0v-man said:
This sounds dumb. There’s PDs on this site that have said that “rank highly” means nothing and might even come off negatively. Sounds like a typical admin thinking they’re smart despite never going through any of this.

SDNs been waaay better informed on what to do than my schools admin for 3.5 years now. I’m not gonna start listening to admin now.
Click to expand...

Fwiw our admin told us specifically to only send a letter to our top choice if we send anything. I think that’s the smarter move.
 
redsox93 said:
So our admin told us that we should send letters of intent to our top 5 places. Not number one emails but emails saying “I plan to rank you very highly, would be very happy at your program for x reasons...” is this bad advice? I’ve seen that you should only send out an email to your top place. I wish all post interview communication just wasn’t a thing haha I hate having to worry about something so dumb.
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I would take all advice from admin with a grain of salt. Look at it like you looked at the FREIDA website data - 5-10 years out of date. Not useless, but not the end all be all and you definitely need to integrate your own judgement and research into the decision making process.
 
Oedipa Maas said:
I would take all advice from admin with a grain of salt. Look at it like you looked at the FREIDA website data - 5-10 years out of date. Not useless, but not the end all be all and you definitely need to integrate your own judgement and research into the decision making process.
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I think you could get the most accurate info from your PD lol you know like people who are in charge of this for a living. I'm asking my PD for advice and so far everything she's said has been very accurate!
 
Chibucks15 said:
Idk telling people they can’t possibly understand what he/she is going through because they aren’t in the same “tier” with “top interviews in a small field” just comes off pretty condescending to me. Happy for ya French but the “top” places of any other field aren’t THAT different.

plus consistently freaking out about things out of your control is a way to go into a pretty deep anxiety spiral. Been there it ain’t fun. Roll with the punches everybody were almost through it
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Sorry, I don’t feel like it is worth for me to explain and further argue. Each of us have our own unique apps. Each specialty is different. Surgical subspecialty is more hierarchy than non. I did not want to further derail the thread and argue. If you have not noticed, we went down this path at least 3 times already trying to argue about cap this and cap that. Do you see we get anywhere? I know my goal, app and my field the best...just like you know yours. Don’t feel the need to explain mine. You can disagree w me. Idrc.
 
frenchyn said:
Sorry, I don’t feel like it is worth for me to explain and further argue. Each of us have our own unique apps. Each specialty is different. Surgical subspecialty is more hierarchy than non. I did not want to further derail the thread and argue. If you have not noticed, we went down this path at least 3 times already trying to argue about cap this and cap that. Do you see we get anywhere? I know my goal, app and my field the best...just like you know yours. Don’t feel the need to explain mine. You can disagree w me. Idrc.
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If this is true then why are you constantly responding to people posting generalizable, broad discussions points with "well, actually, in my super niche situation that is not true" ??? It's exhausting. We get it at this point. Your post is kinda ironic don't you think?
 
frenchyn said:
Sorry, I don’t feel like it is worth for me to explain and further argue. Each of us have our own unique apps. Each specialty is different. Surgical subspecialty is more hierarchy than non. I did not want to further derail the thread and argue. If you have not noticed, we went down this path at least 3 times already trying to argue about cap this and cap that. Do you see we get anywhere? I know my goal, app and my field the best...just like you know yours. Don’t feel the need to explain mine. You can disagree w me. Idrc.
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I do not care what or where you are applying to. Your situation isn’t THAT different than top tier places everywhere else. You can keep pumping up your self importance all you want it doesn’t change the fact we’re all in the same boat.

but best of luck to you in your Uber unique and special pursuits. Worrying about it just makes you feel worse. Roll with whatever happens I promise you’ll feel better
 
frenchyn said:
Sorry, I don’t feel like it is worth for me to explain and further argue. Each of us have our own unique apps. Each specialty is different. Surgical subspecialty is more hierarchy than non. I did not want to further derail the thread and argue. If you have not noticed, we went down this path at least 3 times already trying to argue about cap this and cap that. Do you see we get anywhere? I know my goal, app and my field the best...just like you know yours. Don’t feel the need to explain mine. You can disagree w me. Idrc.
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omg i'm just going to say right here CUT it out I didn't support the condescension lol no need to get spicy with other applicants
 
iamarosepetal said:
omg i'm just going to say right here CUT it out I didn't support the condescension lol no need to get spicy with other applicants
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I don't think this is condescension as much as the language barrier, FWIW. @frenchyn hope the match works out in your favor, regardless of your field you should have good chances with the number of interviews you have. Your probability of failing to match is probably higher than most other fields, but your overall chances are still good.
 
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