Columbia Post-Bac Pre-Med

[efle]

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There are tons of smart students at Columbia, but that doesn't mean it's cut-throat. Everybody I knew there was really nice and helpful.

I had a similar experience at a school I've seen described as cut-throat too. I think cut-throat is just the wrong word and gets over used.

Sabotaging a neighbors lab, that is cut throat. Hard to be top X% for an A is just competitive.

 

[Froggy25]

It's not that bad. Yes it's hard, but I feel like people make it out to be a boogyman program or something. It's not - it's a program where you are surrounded by really smart people, and that makes it somewhat competitive, naturally. Personally, I think that's a good thing.


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[DatInterviewDood]

Out of curiosity, does GS = grad student?


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[GnothiSeauton]

Out of curiosity, does GS = grad student?


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GS == General Studies. The School of General Studies is the name for the undergraduate college of Columbia that all non-traditionals (anyone not straight from high school) enrolls in. They take the same courses as Columbia College students, and the Premed Postbac program is a part of GS.

 

[GnothiSeauton]

I finished the postbac program here last year and have had success this cycle. Some of the courses are quite difficult, in particular the biology lecture and the organic chemistry lab. I met nobody here who was anything but generous and collaborative. That won't save you if you're not prepare for the academics, though. The problem is that the program casts a much wider net than some others, and ends up enrolling people that aren't talented enough academically to be competitive medical school applicants. Bryn Mawr's program has such good placement because they only accept people who will ace their courses.

If you have strong evidence that you can pull a 3.5+ in a reasonably challenging science course-load, this program will give you good results (especially in the NYC metro area, where the program is well-known). If you have doubts, I would recommend saving some money by going to a program like CCNY. You can still apply top-tier if you get outstanding results, and apply DO or mid/low-tier MD otherwise.

 

[Froggy25]

I finished the postbac program here last year and have had success this cycle. Some of the courses are quite difficult, in particular the biology lecture and the organic chemistry lab. I met nobody here who was anything but generous and collaborative. That won't save you if you're not prepare for the academics, though. The problem is that the program casts a much wider net than some others, and ends up enrolling people that aren't talented enough academically to be competitive medical school applicants. Bryn Mawr's program has such good placement because they only accept people who will ace their courses.

If you have strong evidence that you can pull a 3.5+ in a reasonably challenging science course-load, this program will give you good results (especially in the NYC metro area, where the program is well-known). If you have doubts, I would recommend saving some money by going to a program like CCNY. You can still apply top-tier if you get outstanding results, and apply DO or mid/low-tier MD otherwise.

100% agree with this analysis. However, I'm not sure that Columbia's casting of a wide net is necessarily a problem. I prefer to look at it as though Columbia is willing to give people a shot to prove themselves, and doesn't provide a safety net. There's no doubt that the program is sink or swim, and therefore the wide net results in some folks dropping out, but the students are far from "cutthroat" in my experience.

 

[GnothiSeauton]

100% agree with this analysis. However, I'm not sure that Columbia's casting of a wide net is necessarily a problem. I prefer to look at it as though Columbia is willing to give people a shot to prove themselves, and doesn't provide a safety net. There's no doubt that the program is sink or swim, and therefore the wide net results in some folks dropping out, but the students are far from "cutthroat" in my experience.

Let me just say first that I like Columbia, and there's a pretty good chance I'm sticking around for the long haul. However... the idea of giving people a shot with the postbac is disturbingly similar in concept to this: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/education/edlife/second-chance-med-school.html?_r=0

I do wish this program and many like it would be more up-front about people's chances before they're in the hole for thousands of dollars.

 

[CLB_MD]

I'm a Columbia alum, and I'd recommend that you stay away from Columbia and it's post bacc program. Two years out of Columbia, I've done everything I can to fix my application (mainly in terms of my grades), and after 30 MD apps, I have no acceptances and will probably be a reapplicant.

 

[Froggy25]

Let me just say first that I like Columbia, and there's a pretty good chance I'm sticking around for the long haul. However... the idea of giving people a shot with the postbac is disturbingly similar in concept to this: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/education/edlife/second-chance-med-school.html?_r=0

I do wish this program and many like it would be more up-front about people's chances before they're in the hole for thousands of dollars.

I think you're right. Perhaps its just because of my age, but this was a conversation I had with my advisor once I was accepted, before I decided to come to Columbia. I straight up asked the question because I had the concerns you articulated, and the concerns alluded to in the article (good one, BTW). I was told, and I believe, that the Post-Bac admissions committee sees the potential for success in each person they accept, otherwise they don't accept them. Of course Columbia is more liberal with admissions than Goucher or Bryn Mawr, but I think that is by philosophical design not from some sense of malice, money grabbing or misdirection. I'd also say that if someone comes to at top 5 university and thinks they are going to coast to straight A's, it's probably not the program's fault for their predicable underperformance. I'm sure that we both know folks that gave it 100% and still didn't make it. Those are the hard ones to evaluate for me anyway.

As far as your comment about the program being up front on chances, I feel that the program was definitely up front with me about it. Perhaps it's just because I asked, and I realize that this is n=1, but I don't feel like they were trying to lead me on to false hope in any way.

If you have doubts, I would recommend saving some money by going to a program like CCNY. You can still apply top-tier if you get outstanding results, and apply DO or mid/low-tier MD otherwise.

Admittedly, money wasn't a concern for me when considering Columbia Post-Bac, and I still agree with this. I gave this advice to a friend recently. I must admit that if I had to pay for it out of pocket, I would have opted to go to the cheapest 4-year school I could find. Everyone's situation is different though.

 

[GnothiSeauton]

I think you're right. Perhaps its just because of my age, but this was a conversation I had with my advisor once I was accepted, before I decided to come to Columbia. I straight up asked the question because I had the concerns you articulated, and the concerns alluded to in the article (good one, BTW). I was told, and I believe, that the Post-Bac admissions committee sees the potential for success in each person they accept, otherwise they don't accept them. Of course Columbia is more liberal with admissions than Goucher or Bryn Mawr, but I think that is by philosophical design not from some sense of malice, money grabbing or misdirection. I'd also say that if someone comes to at top 5 university and thinks they are going to coast to straight A's, it's probably not the program's fault for their predicable underperformance. I'm sure that we both know folks that gave it 100% and still didn't make it. Those are the hard ones to evaluate for me anyway.

As far as your comment about the program being up front on chances, I feel that the program was definitely up front with me about it. Perhaps it's just because I asked, and I realize that this is n=1, but I don't feel like they were trying to lead me on to false hope in any way.



Admittedly, money wasn't a concern for me when considering Columbia Post-Bac, and I still agree with this. I gave this advice to a friend recently. I must admit that if I had to pay for it out of pocket, I would have opted to go to the cheapest 4-year school I could find. Everyone's situation is different though.

I think we're pretty much on the exact same wavelength here. Money was not a concern for me either (I haven't put in for the USMC flair on my account here), and I had a realistic view of my academic abilities going into the program. As you said, n=1, and I don't know exactly what advice the less successful members of this program were given at the outset and all along the way. While I doubt actual malice is at play in postbac and SMP programs, I would say that's probably true of most Caribbean medical programs. Hanlon's razor applies here.

 

[pauld]

They're also very late with their Commitee letter. Mine came around August 20th.

 

[Froggy25]

I think we're pretty much on the exact same wavelength here.

I think so too.

Money was not a concern for me either (I haven't put in for the USMC flair on my account here)

I think the minimum allowable pieces of flair on SDN is two, and you don't have an avatar either. Come on man lol! I didn't have a mil identifier for awhile either (intentionally), but they hooked me at a lifetime membership and more control over my account. I do admit though that rolling in-cognito has advantages, even if it's not a very Marine quality 😉

 

[Froggy25]

They're also very late with their Commitee letter. Mine came around August 20th.

True statement. It didn't effect me much in the end, but was definitely a source of concern early in the cycle...

 

[columbiapostbacguides]

I know this thread is a little old, but I’m in my second semester of the Columbia postbac program and I work as a tour guide here. I thought I’d respond to some of the comments on this thread. It is certainly true that it’s difficult to receive A’s in your courses in this program, and if your goal is to leave Columbia with a perfect GPA, this program probably should not be at the top of your list. However, med schools recognize the rigor and accelerated pace of Columbia’s program - each year at our medical school fair, we welcome admissions deans from top medical schools who refer to this fact and account for it in their admissions decisions. If you can do well or even average at Columbia, you’ll be better off in the med school application process than you would at many other schools.

 

[Cath Up]

I know this thread is a little old, but I’m in my second semester of the Columbia postbac program and I work as a tour guide here. I thought I’d respond to some of the comments on this thread. It is certainly true that it’s difficult to receive A’s in your courses in this program, and if your goal is to leave Columbia with a perfect GPA, this program probably should not be at the top of your list. However, med schools recognize the rigor and accelerated pace of Columbia’s program - each year at our medical school fair, we welcome admissions deans from top medical schools who refer to this fact and account for it in their admissions decisions. If you can do well or even average at Columbia, you’ll be better off in the med school application process than you would at many other schools.

...But not well enough, on average, for Columbia to post the actual outcomes of their postbacc students. I wish you the best, colubmiapostbacguides, if you are truly a student in this program. But I think future applicants should be aware of how shady it is for Columbia to not clearly post (someone please link me to the data if I am missing it!) the outcomes, AKA medical school matriculation rates the following year, of students entering into the postbacc premed program. For students that have yet to take pre-med courses, there are a number of guaranteed admission programs that are potentially less damaging to one's GPA. Consider looking at those. Or, do a DIY postbacc and do well, for a fraction of the cost.

I never like how schools dance around actual outcomes data as if it is not incredibly important to applicants. The only "data" I could find for this program was "in recent years, up to 90% of students have been accepted to medical schools in the first year of application". Which years? (Hint: they were probably the "recent years" that are not very recent). What were the rates of other years? How many students each year?

 

[Drwooo]

...But not well enough, on average, for Columbia to post the actual outcomes of their postbacc students. I wish you the best, colubmiapostbacguides, if you are truly a student in this program. But I think future applicants should be aware of how shady it is for Columbia to not clearly post (someone please link me to the data if I am missing it!) the outcomes, AKA medical school matriculation rates the following year, of students entering into the postbacc premed program. For students that have yet to take pre-med courses, there are a number of guaranteed admission programs that are potentially less damaging to one's GPA. Consider looking at those. Or, do a DIY postbacc and do well, for a fraction of the cost.

I never like how schools dance around actual outcomes data as if it is not incredibly important to applicants. The only "data" I could find for this program was "in recent years, up to 90% of students have been accepted to medical schools in the first year of application". Which years? (Hint: they were probably the "recent years" that are not very recent). What were the rates of other years? How many students each year?

I finished the columbia postbacc a few years ago with a 4.0 (including A's both semesters in the infamous Moshowitz bio). Organic Chemistry lab was very (and needlessly) time consuming and encroached on my MCAT prep time. This cost me a few points and I ended up with a mediocre score. I was a non-trad applicant with a couple of things working against me. The dean called me in a few days after they got my score and advised me to withdraw my application. When I told them I wouldnt they replied that "it might take a while to write your deans letter," and "they couldnt guarantee it would be all positive" and I should consider applying without it. So, now Im in the Caribbean. A lot of work, stress, and $$ went into Columbia's program and it ultimately put me at a disadvantage.

I heard similar stories from people in my cohort that were "borderline" applicants. The program is such a cash cow, I believe it's become programmatic there to try to try withhold letters/ expel students who finish the program but may be borderline applicants in order to juice their stats. For what it's worth, about 50-60% of my incoming cohort made it to medical school within 5 years. In fairness a few of those who left did so for personal (not academic) reasons. That estimate includes overseas/ caribbean med schools.

(It would not surprise me if I get some push-back on my comments. The advisers monitor these boards. But rest assured everything I've written is accurate.)

 

[Cath Up]

I finished the columbia postbacc a few years ago with a 4.0 (including A's both semesters in the infamous Moshowitz bio). Organic Chemistry lab was very (and needlessly) time consuming and encroached on my MCAT prep time. This cost me a few points and I ended up with a mediocre score. I was a non-trad applicant with a couple of things working against me. The dean called me in a few days after they got my score and advised me to withdraw my application. When I told them I wouldnt they replied that "it might take a while to write your deans letter," and "they couldnt guarantee it would be all positive" and I should consider applying without it. So, now Im in the Caribbean. A lot of work, stress, and $$ went into Columbia's program and it ultimately put me at a disadvantage.

I heard similar stories from people in my cohort that were "borderline" applicants. The program is such a cash cow, I believe it's become programmatic there to try to try withhold letters/ expel students who finish the program but may be borderline applicants in order to juice their stats. For what it's worth, about 50-60% of my incoming cohort made it to medical school within 5 years. In fairness a few of those who left did so for personal (not academic) reasons. That estimate includes overseas/ caribbean med schools.

(It would not surprise me if I get some push-back on my comments. The advisers monitor these boards. But rest assured everything I've written is accurate.)

Thank you for sharing your story. I hope prospective students read this. Your experience does not appear to reflect an ethical or supportive program.

 

[Drwooo]

Thank you for sharing your story. I hope prospective students read this. Your experience does not appear to reflect an ethical or supportive program.

Notice on Feb 7th @columbiapostbacguides who claims to be in their second semester writes:

"each year at our medical school fair, we welcome admissions deans from top medical schools who refer to this fact and account for it in their admissions decisions. If you can do well or even average at Columbia, you’ll be better off in the med school application process than you would at many other schools."

But the med school fair was held on Feb 23rd. Highly suspicious. More likely it's from the office. They never cease to amaze....

 

[Kalos_kagathos]

I finished the columbia postbacc a few years ago with a 4.0 (including A's both semesters in the infamous Moshowitz bio). Organic Chemistry lab was very (and needlessly) time consuming and encroached on my MCAT prep time. This cost me a few points and I ended up with a mediocre score. I was a non-trad applicant with a couple of things working against me. The dean called me in a few days after they got my score and advised me to withdraw my application. When I told them I wouldnt they replied that "it might take a while to write your deans letter," and "they couldnt guarantee it would be all positive" and I should consider applying without it. So, now Im in the Caribbean. A lot of work, stress, and $$ went into Columbia's program and it ultimately put me at a disadvantage.

I heard similar stories from people in my cohort that were "borderline" applicants. The program is such a cash cow, I believe it's become programmatic there to try to try withhold letters/ expel students who finish the program but may be borderline applicants in order to juice their stats. For what it's worth, about 50-60% of my incoming cohort made it to medical school within 5 years. In fairness a few of those who left did so for personal (not academic) reasons. That estimate includes overseas/ caribbean med schools.

(It would not surprise me if I get some push-back on my comments. The advisers monitor these boards. But rest assured everything I've written is accurate.)

Why didn't you do a linkage to Columbia Med School? It seems like you should have been a shoo-in, no MCATs needed.

 

[atomi]

Is it still $100k? If so, huge PASS. Plus the person I know who did it and got into a great med school ended up failing step 1, graduated, but never finished residency.

btw, I did my post-bac at community college at night while working full time for around $3,000.

 

[Drwooo]

Why didn't you do a linkage to Columbia Med School? It seems like you should have been a shoo-in, no MCATs needed.

I actually did apply for linkage since I met the gpa and prerequisite requirements. I submitted the ten 3-page statements they required and was turned down without explanation before the interview stage. I'm still not sure why. Their policy is to not provide any explanation about that. Few, if any, candidates are a 'shoo-in' but you have a decent shot if you have no weaknesses on your record. I'd estimate 5-15% of students successfully link in any given year.

The advisers have a lot of discretion in this process so it helps to develop close relationships with them if you're hoping to link. Some ppl were better at this than others. One adviser was actually fired for sleeping with multiple students in my class. Rumor had it she played favorites w/ linkage candidates which may have put me and others at a disadvantage, but this was back in 2015 and there's no way to know for sure.

 

[Drwooo]

Is it still $100k? If so, huge PASS. Plus the person I know who did it and got into a great med school ended up failing step 1, graduated, but never finished residency.

btw, I did my post-bac at community college at night while working full time for around $3,000.

Tuition for the columbia post bac program runs about $55,000-60,000. Living expenses meant I had debts of $105,000 when I left. By comparison CUNY tuition at Hunter College would have ended up being something like $15,000-17,000 + living expenses.

 

[Josephine Baker]

Is it still $100k? If so, huge PASS. Plus the person I know who did it and got into a great med school ended up failing step 1, graduated, but never finished residency.

btw, I did my post-bac at community college at night while working full time for around $3,000.

Which college did you do your Postbac? I'm in NY and I don't have money for an expensive Postbac program. Thanks for your advice.

 

[Josephine Baker]

I always suggest Hunter in NYC for PB.

oh thank you... why not CCNY?

 

[NonTradtnlMD]

I actually did apply for linkage since I met the gpa and prerequisite requirements. I submitted the ten 3-page statements they required and was turned down without explanation before the interview stage. I'm still not sure why. Their policy is to not provide any explanation about that. Few, if any, candidates are a 'shoo-in' but you have a decent shot if you have no weaknesses on your record. I'd estimate 5-15% of students successfully link in any given year.

The advisers have a lot of discretion in this process so it helps to develop close relationships with them if you're hoping to link. Some ppl were better at this than others. One adviser was actually fired for sleeping with multiple students in my class. Rumor had it she played favorites w/ linkage candidates which may have put me and others at a disadvantage, but this was back in 2015 and there's no way to know for sure.

I do remember this while attending Post-Bac at Columbia...

 

[wyqgerman]

I always suggest Hunter in NYC for PB.

Hunter's program has been shut down lately.

 

[Josephine Baker]

Hunter's program has been shut down lately.

Wow.. good to know.
Anyone has any experience with Baruch premed? I heard it was good because it was small and focused and the faculty has great credentials and you can get great LORs.