Combined DVM + PHD

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Princess1243

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Hello Everyone, I was wondering if you could help me. I am searching for veterinary schools to apply to I am interested in completing a DVM +PHD combined degree program. I was wondering if there were any vet schools that pay for you to complete your DVM.

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Do you actually have interest in research? Why do you want to pursue both degrees? What are your career goals?

Fully funded dual degree programs are very few and far between in vet med. The vast majority of dual programs will have some sort of tuition remission, but paying entirely for vet school is very rare.
 
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I am also planning on applying in a few years to a combined program, and at Illinois you get a stipend during your research years plus tuition waiver. They may also reduce tuition some years during the DVM, but definitely not all of them.
 
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Why do you want to pursue both degrees? What are your career goals?
I'll reiterate these questions for anyone thinking about doing a combined degree program, because as someone at the end of one, I think combined programs are often not the best choice depending on career plans.

@WhtsThFrequency and I can talk all day about alternative options and why they're probably better.
 
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Unfortunately for me, I have always wanted a PhD. Doubly unfortunate for me, I love neuroscience and Illinois has some super interesting projects there. Including some CWD research which excites me a lot. I'm definitely a researcher and/or professor at heart. DVM feels like a good way to take the limited aspects of research and remind myself where the end applications are. Plus, I personally want a ton of animals, and lifetime costs may end up equalling out.

I probably could have just said I hate myself and conveyed the same info lol.
 
Unfortunately for me, I have always wanted a PhD. Doubly unfortunate for me, I love neuroscience and Illinois has some super interesting projects there. Including some CWD research which excites me a lot. I'm definitely a researcher and/or professor at heart. DVM feels like a good way to take the limited aspects of research and remind myself where the end applications are. Plus, I personally want a ton of animals, and lifetime costs may end up equalling out.

I probably could have just said I hate myself and conveyed the same info lol.
Why do you feel you need both degrees for that? What is the DVM actually bringing to the equation for you?
 
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Unfortunately for me, I have always wanted a PhD. Doubly unfortunate for me, I love neuroscience and Illinois has some super interesting projects there. Including some CWD research which excites me a lot. I'm definitely a researcher and/or professor at heart. DVM feels like a good way to take the limited aspects of research and remind myself where the end applications are. Plus, I personally want a ton of animals, and lifetime costs may end up equalling out.

I probably could have just said I hate myself and conveyed the same info lol.

I'd have the same question as shorty. It doesn't really sound, at least from the description you gave here, that the DVM would not be necessary for your goals.

Like not to be harsh but offsetting the cost of animal ownership is not a great reason to want a DVM. And DVMs in non-clinical positions don't always get significant discounts on things anyway. The aspect of reminding yourself where the end applications are is pretty vague. How do you envision the DVM actually applying to your work in a practical sense?
 
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I am still on the fence re: DVM, but I have so many prerequisites to take its easier to live as if I have fully decided. I still have the full Chem sequence to take, so I have a couple years to really think on it. But I really do like how dynamic the degree can be, and that if I decide not to do a PhD in this period, I've still been working towards a professional degree I think I would enjoy.
 
I'm being kinda pithy here, but I've been starting to have conversations with both practicing vets and researchers to help me make a final decision. It's at least 6 years where I'd be in school with that, and I do have other life goals. I'm in a wherever the winds happen to take me place right now.
 
For me personally, I came from the perspective of being clinically minded, hence needing the DVM for my goals, and ended up doing the dual program because I got involved in research during vet school that I wanted to spend more time on and finish out. I knew who I would be working with and that the area of research I'd be in was important to me, and that it would also help me get my foot in the door with the area of vet med that I want to end up in.

I would be hard pressed to think of a good reason to do a dual program if your primary goal is research. You just...don't need the DVM in that case, and doing a full PhD program is going to honestly benefit you more than doing a dual program.
 
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It's at least 6 years where I'd be in school with that
It's significantly more than 6 years. Plan on 8. Understand it may be 9.

I'm not asking you these questions to harsh your vibe or whatever, but admission to dual programs is both extremely competitive and often, imo, the dual program is not a good choice to make PARTICULARLY for someone who wants to be primarily research. Many of the dual programs have you do a portion of the DVM, then do the PhD in the middle, before returning to the DVM (this is how I am doing my program). Some have options to do that track or do the degrees consecutively, and then some only offer it consecutively (this is how Dubz's program is).

The quality of research and level of publication that you're able to attain in a concurrent dual program is lower than in a standard PhD because of the time crunch to get you back into the DVM, IMO. And has the additional disadvantage of you being out of research for a few years when you're finishing the DVM, which means you're not publishing, which means getting postdoc positions is going to be really difficult.

If research is your primary interest and there isn't a direct way that having the DVM actually contributes to what you want to do, there's no reason to incur the expense of a DVM.
 
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I'm hesitant on making any decision now, but this is all good information to have/think about. I know there are some major downsides to pure research and to DVMs. I don't think doing both would make up for the downsides in either, and could make them worse. I'm realistically 3 years from being ready to apply to either since I want to take a gap year after my Master's. It's kinda the path I'm choosing to work towards at the moment, because I know it's competitive and it helps my mentors help guide me towards a good final decision for me.

I don't think I could do pure research, and I've really rediscovered how important vets are in the Human-Animal bond. Vets have a really unique piece in that puzzle and I think I could fit well in there. Letting things happen and opportunities present themselves to me has kinda worked out so far, so I'm willing to let time help guide me.
 
I'm hesitant on making any decision now, but this is all good information to have/think about. I know there are some major downsides to pure research and to DVMs. I don't think doing both would make up for the downsides in either, and could make them worse. I'm realistically 3 years from being ready to apply to either since I want to take a gap year after my Master's. It's kinda the path I'm choosing to work towards at the moment, because I know it's competitive and it helps my mentors help guide me towards a good final decision for me.

I don't think I could do pure research, and I've really rediscovered how important vets are in the Human-Animal bond. Vets have a really unique piece in that puzzle and I think I could fit well in there. Letting things happen and opportunities present themselves to me has kinda worked out so far, so I'm willing to let time help guide me.

I think the better way to consider isn’t what degree you want but what do you want to do with your life? What would bring you to work excited every day? Obviously it’s OK if you don’t have those answers right now, and getting experience in both areas will be critical to helping you guide yourself, just food for thought. Once you’ve narrowed that down, then think about how you go about getting there.
 
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Unfortunately for me, I have always wanted a PhD. Doubly unfortunate for me, I love neuroscience and Illinois has some super interesting projects there. Including some CWD research which excites me a lot. I'm definitely a researcher and/or professor at heart. DVM feels like a good way to take the limited aspects of research and remind myself where the end applications are. Plus, I personally want a ton of animals, and lifetime costs may end up equalling out.

I probably could have just said I hate myself and conveyed the same info lol.

Halloooooo DVM/PhD professor here!

Others here have asked very good questions, and here are some more to think about. Of course you don't have to have all the answers right now, but just let these bounce around in your mind.

1. At the end of the day, what type of "work split" do you think you would most enjoy? Would you prefer to be mostly research and be clinical on the side? Or primarily clinical with research on the side? When you say professor, do you mean a position with a research/teaching split or one that is primarily research? How much research experience do you currently have (i.e. are you sure you like it? Speaking from experience, it's rough af :rofl: and often not nearly as enjoyable as it may appear - and I say this as someone who has done a TON of it)

2. What type of research speaks the most to you? Topics that are more focused on veterinary species (i.e. the CWD you mentioned) or topics that have more translational implications and are more likely to get high level (i.e. NIH and the like) funding and support? A PhD with a solid postdoc and a ton of pubs is almost essential for the latter, but not necessarily the former.

3. Do you want to be a PI (running your own lab, writing grants and finding funding, managing projects and postdocs and grad students, etc) or would you prefer more collaborative endeavors where you are more of a contributor than a true PI? I do admit my own bias towards the latter...it's what I do, and scratches my research itch enough without cutting into my teaching and clinical responsibilities.

My issue with a lot of combined programs is that the quality, rigor and topics of the research can often be a little disappointing for someone who wants to pursue a major PI role in the future. And that's not the fault of the students at all - it is simply because combined students have less time and energy to devote to major projects (and the research is often "split" because there are clinical years in between). It's not really conducive to a lot of major impact publications. If you aren't after major funding agencies and you don't want to be a PI, thats's not that big of a deal, though.

Disclaimer: I did my PhD separately, after residency, and I think it really let me focus 100% on my projects and get better outcomes. It still took me almost 5 years (which is on the average-to-slightly-quick side in PhD land, even), and I can't fathom trying to combine it with a clinical degree. I have a 75% teaching appointment, with 25% clinical/research. My clinical time is protected, and I basically just kinda pitch in with random research projects with a variety of groups. I'm very happy with it.
 
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I'm more of a teacher than a researcher if I had to make a guess right now. I find it really rewarding watching people put all the pieces together. My moms been a teacher since she was pregnant with me, my brother is going to school to be a HS History teacher so its in my blood.

I don't have a ton of interest in trying to get high level grants at least right now because I'm not sure I'm that competitive. Running my own lab also seems like a little much for me. I know I need a level of supervision, because I like to venture beyond the scope of my assignments a little to much. I'm also a big interdisciplinary person. If I could do a little bit of science history and medical ethics I would be very happy.

I definitely would love to do prion research even though they terrify me, and human med just doesn't interest me. Plus human prion cases are just heartbreaking. I definitely have less experience in research than I would like, but hard things don't scare me.

I'm also very financially stable, especially for my age group and have owned my house for the past 5.5 years. I know that can be a big consideration for some people, but if I could stay at Illinois a lot of big expenses are just not there for me. The hubs has a great job and really likes it where he is, so I have a little different decision making process there too.
 
This all is super great information! What are some questions to ask to veterinary schools about the combined degree program? And how can you make yourself stand out from the rest of applicants? Like I am currently doing research with a veterinary school as an undergraduate, what else can I do to stand out from the rest?
 
I'm more of a teacher than a researcher if I had to make a guess right now. I find it really rewarding watching people put all the pieces together. My moms been a teacher since she was pregnant with me, my brother is going to school to be a HS History teacher so its in my blood.

I don't have a ton of interest in trying to get high level grants at least right now because I'm not sure I'm that competitive. Running my own lab also seems like a little much for me. I know I need a level of supervision, because I like to venture beyond the scope of my assignments a little to much. I'm also a big interdisciplinary person. If I could do a little bit of science history and medical ethics I would be very happy.

I definitely would love to do prion research even though they terrify me, and human med just doesn't interest me. Plus human prion cases are just heartbreaking. I definitely have less experience in research than I would like, but hard things don't scare me.

I'm also very financially stable, especially for my age group and have owned my house for the past 5.5 years. I know that can be a big consideration for some people, but if I could stay at Illinois a lot of big expenses are just not there for me. The hubs has a great job and really likes it where he is, so I have a little different decision making process there too.

Hah, you sound a lot like me, except I didn't realize I loved to teach until residency. I was always a bit of a wallflower, but once I learned how to cultivate my "actress persona" I discovered I could be a really good one. I also was never really one to want to run my own lab and have my life depend on getting grants. I'm sure some people thrive on the insanely competitive nature of that type of position, but I prefer security and work-life balance thank you very much.

It sounds like an academic position along the lines of a clinical professor might be what you would like the most (but of course, interests can always change). Which means yes, a PhD might well be in order (because academia, as much as I love it, is snobby and still wants many professors to all have PhDs even if they aren't research heavy positions.....but I digress, that's a whole 'nother rant I could go on) but the order in which you do one and the field itself is a bit more flexible since you won't be desperate for postdocs and funding.
 
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This all is super great information! What are some questions to ask to veterinary schools about the combined degree program? And how can you make yourself stand out from the rest of applicants? Like I am currently doing research with a veterinary school as an undergraduate, what else can I do to stand out from the rest?

Questions to ask

1. What is the average number of publications that your combined students end up completing the program with? How many of these are first author?
2. What is the average length of time between the beginning and completion of the program?
3. What proportion, if any, of these combined students drop to a Master's degree?
4. Are there any current combined degree students who would be willing to talk to potential students (this is huge - THIS is where you will get your honest reviews)
5. What types of positions do combined graduates typically go on to do?

In terms of standing out, try to get your name on papers. Try to get on posters, or even better, submit your own poster to a conference - even if it is just a local conference or one that your school is running. Showing productivity is a big win.
 
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Hah, you sound a lot like me, except I didn't realize I loved to teach until residency. I was always a bit of a wallflower, but once I learned how to cultivate my "actress persona" I discovered I could be a really good one. I also was never really one to want to run my own lab and have my life depend on getting grants. I'm sure some people thrive on the insanely competitive nature of that type of position, but I prefer security and work-life balance thank you very much.

It sounds like an academic position along the lines of a clinical professor might be what you would like the most (but of course, interests can always change). Which means yes, a PhD might well be in order (because academia, as much as I love it, is snobby and still wants many professors to all have PhDs even if they aren't research heavy positions.....but I digress, that's a whole 'nother rant I could go on) but the order in which you do one and the field itself is a bit more flexible since you won't be desperate for postdocs and funding.
Oh thank God someone who isn't totally trying to talk me out of things! I like to have a rough plan of where I want to go, but I refuse to try and work out all the details until I need to. I also love to be surprised by where life can take me, and what doors start opening as I meet people.

Covid really messed up my initial plans (getting an MA in Italian Studies, was studying there in Spring 2020), so I've really leaned into not working it all out. I've always wanted to be Dr. Trex, so it's been working out how to get there and I guess how many doctoral degrees. I'm really just trying to put my work in, wiggle my way into my current crop of professors hearts, and let them help me get to where I want to go. I'm at a really special place in my life right now, and I'm trying to enjoy it.
 
Disclaimer: I did my PhD separately, after residency, and I think it really let me focus 100% on my projects and get better outcomes. It still took me almost 5 years (which is on the average-to-slightly-quick side in PhD land, even), and I can't fathom trying to combine it with a clinical degree. I have a 75% teaching appointment, with 25% clinical/research. My clinical time is protected, and I basically just kinda pitch in with random research projects with a variety of groups. I'm very happy with it.
Today I learned I want to be WTF when I grow up :love: Dream job right there, lol
 
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Oh thank God someone who isn't totally trying to talk me out of things! I like to have a rough plan of where I want to go, but I refuse to try and work out all the details until I need to. I also love to be surprised by where life can take me, and what doors start opening as I meet people.

Covid really messed up my initial plans (getting an MA in Italian Studies, was studying there in Spring 2020), so I've really leaned into not working it all out. I've always wanted to be Dr. Trex, so it's been working out how to get there and I guess how many doctoral degrees. I'm really just trying to put my work in, wiggle my way into my current crop of professors hearts, and let them help me get to where I want to go. I'm at a really special place in my life right now, and I'm trying to enjoy it.


Hah!! Usually I am the one who is trying to do that to everyone. Usually when they say they want to be heavily research....I try to tell them that the DVM is likely not necessary and a PhD and postdoc would suit them WAY better (and far cheaper).

I still think combined programs can be overall dicey, and highly dependent on the school, mentor, and funding. Trying to mix a structured degree (DVM) with an unstructured one (PhD) is difficult. A lot of mentors don't understand your time committments. Often students will have to come back after their DVM to finish research as well. Projects go wrong. Projects may change completely or lose funding when you go away for a couple years to do the vet school portion and then you have to start almost all over. Hence why I usually direct people to steer clear of them and instead just do the DVM, apply to a place that has a T32 grant, and do a PhD there separately. At least then you will be paid at a post-doc level for three of those years, and you will be able to focus 100% on research and get a more thorough experience.
 
So what veterinary schools would you say are the best for a combined degree?

I know penn, Illinois, Colorado, Cornell, but are there any others that you have heard?

What about NC state? How is their combined program do they pay for your dvm or what do they do?
 
I actually dog sit for someone in the combined program who could probably walk me through how it works. After telling me politely yet firmly to not.
 
Today I learned I want to be WTF when I grow up :love: Dream job right there, lol

It's pretty sweet, not gonna lie. I mean there are definitely times of the year when curriculum design makes me want to claw my own eyeballs out - I have developed an immense respect for what my own profs must have all gone through when I was a student. But I feel very secure in my job and MOST of the time my work-life balance is good.

So what veterinary schools would you say are the best for a combined degree?

I know penn, Illinois, Colorado, Cornell, but are there any others that you have heard?

What about NC state? How is their combined program do they pay for your dvm or what do they do?

It is far less dependent on school, and far more dependent on the quality, experience, and money of the PIs who are willing to take on combined students. Sometimes they go together, sometimes they don't. You could have a top notch school but crappy PIs, and vice versa. Look at the research programs and areas available to combined students, how many publications they are putting out, etc. That's your best bet.
 
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So what veterinary schools would you say are the best for a combined degree?

I know penn, Illinois, Colorado, Cornell, but are there any others that you have heard?

What about NC state? How is their combined program do they pay for your dvm or what do they do?
Tennessee is another
The major pro I see with the program is that it's consecutive - you do your DVM and then focus on the PhD, so you avoid some of the issues that crop up with concurrent programs. The major con is money. There is no tuition coverage at all for the DVM portion, and UT is spendy for out of state students. PhD tuition is covered (except for some fees) and there is a stipend but as far as I've gathered it's low compared to other programs. On the plus side since you already have your DVM by that point, you can work part-time in a clinic in the area if you want. Funding is only guaranteed for 3 years post-DVM so they do expect you to finish in that timeframe, which could be considered another con, though just means if you need more time you'll need to acquire additional funding.
 
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