community college to medical school

[fuzewater]

Some people told me that medical school does not like CC credits and it is also extremely hard to be accepted with cc credits. can anyone tell me if this is true or not?

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[TheRealMD]

Your MCAT score will be looked at a little bit harder.

 

[Caesar]

Some people told me that medical school does not like CC credits and it is also extremely hard to be accepted with cc credits. can anyone tell me if this is true or not?

It's not. Med schools look at applicants. Be a good applicant, present a good case for yourself, someone will take you. Stop worrying about what might look bad and work on what will look awesome. Give them positive things to say, and they may not even notice.

 

[nash103]

Both my brother and I earned our AAs from CC, and we both were accepted to med school. We did take most of our sciences at a university though. If you have already taken your prereqs at your CC, try to take as many upper level sciences once you transfer for your BA/BS. There is a difference in both quality and difficulty.....and adcoms know that.

Just do well, round out your application with quality experiences (volunteer, shadow, research) and it wont be a problem for you.

 

[nimbusadjust120]

Depending on the CC you are in. California CC . Just do your general education modules in a CC and all the science modules in a 4 year university should work as well. All in all, your MCAT score is the most important.

P.S. your personality as well.

 

[suwaifo]

Both my brother and I earned our AAs from CC, and we both were accepted to med school. We did take most of our sciences at a university though. If you have already taken your prereqs at your CC, try to take as many upper level sciences once you transfer for your BA/BS. There is a difference in both quality and difficulty.....and adcoms know that.

Just do well, round out your application with quality experiences (volunteer, shadow, research) and it wont be a problem for you.

Really? I would really like to know the difference between my gas stoichiometry problems and a university's gas stoichiometry problems. I would also like to know the difference between the textbook that my college uses and the textbook that some universities use. By the way, yes, they are the same book. Thanks.

 

[suwaifo]

Depending on the CC you are in. California CC . Just do your general education modules in a CC and all the science modules in a 4 year university should work as well. All in all, your MCAT score is the most important.

P.S. your personality as well.

If you are a science major, it's nearly impossible to save all of your prerequisites for the university. In fact, I'm going to be taking the first semester of o-chem at cc, and I will only be taking the second semester of o-chem and the physics series after transfer.

 

[LizzyM]

Really? I would really like to know the difference between my gas stoichiometry problems and a university's gas stoichiometry problems. I would also like to know the difference between the textbook that my college uses and the textbook that some universities use. By the way, yes, they are the same book. Thanks.

The pool of students is generally considered a less academically talented pool because the admission criteria are generally more loose. If the class is graded on a curve, an A at a community college may not equal an A at a highly selective college or university. It may be far easier to be in the top 5% of the class in a community college than the top 5% in a university where the average SAT is 90th percentile.

 

[JSB235]

Really? I would really like to know the difference between my gas stoichiometry problems and a university's gas stoichiometry problems. I would also like to know the difference between the textbook that my college uses and the textbook that some universities use. By the way, yes, they are the same book. Thanks.

Its not that you learn anything different at a community college, but it is much easier to get a better grade at a CC. For example at my university my OChem class had about 400 student, and only the top 5% got an A regardless of how much you really learned, while my friend took Ochem at the local community college with about 50 other students, and they could have all potentially gotten and A.
So and A from an university is not the same as an A for a CC. Now I am sure there are some exceptions, but ADCOM do take into account the difference. There are so many applicants, with such similar numbers, they have to find ways to differentiate, and If one applicant has a 3.8 from a university, and one has a 3.8 from a CC, who is going to be the better applicant in the eyes of the ADCOM?
I don't think taking generals at a CC would make that much of a difference, but I don't think it would be smart to take your required classes at a CC either. Now I am sure there are some exceptions to this, but It is about doing whatever you can to make your application the best possible application it can be.

 

[Cegar]

If you intend to be a science/mathematics/engineering major, feel free to take your pre-reqs at a CC. You'll be taking much more difficult classes at a university, so your A in general chemistry will be more than validated.

If you intend to major in something more artsy (like Philosophy), then I would recommend against taking science pre-reqs at a CC. Or that you should take a couple of higher level science courses at your university.

Either way, there are plenty of people who go from a CC, to a university, to a medical school. They are not greatly discriminated against unless they receive poor university grades or they do not score well on the MCAT. In such a case, they would probably not be looked upon to favorably even if they had never set foot on a CC campus.

 

[suwaifo]

The pool of students is generally considered a less academically talented pool because the admission criteria are generally more loose. If the class is graded on a curve, an A at a community college may not equal an A at a highly selective college or university. It may be far easier to be in the top 5% of the class in a community college than the top 5% in a university where the average SAT is 90th percentile.

And if the class is not graded on a curve? I have never seen a class graded on a curve on my campus. I'm not speaking for everyone of course.

What people may lack in "academic talent", they make up for in motivational drive. Something which you would especially find in a community college among the right students. The same thing can be said among universities as well except minus the discriminatory baggage.

"Its not that you learn anything different at a community college, but it is much easier to get a better grade at a CC. For example at my university my OChem class had about 400 student, and only the top 5% got an A regardless of how much you really learned, while my friend took Ochem at the local community college with about 50 other students, and they could have all potentially gotten and A.
So and A from an university is not the same as an A for a CC."
They could have potentially gotten an A. What grades did they really get?
So your friend's CC now speaks for every CC in the nation? 5 percent of 400 people is 20 people. 20 people getting As in one class is quite extreme. Do people really think that 50/50 of community college students get As? I'd say the 5 percent rule applies as well.

 

[LizzyM]

And if the class is not graded on a curve? I have never seen a class graded on a curve on my campus. I'm not speaking for everyone of course.

What people may lack in "academic talent", they make up for in motivational drive. Something which you would especially find in a community college among the right students. The same thing can be said among universities as well except minus the discriminatory baggage.

"Its not that you learn anything different at a community college, but it is much easier to get a better grade at a CC. For example at my university my OChem class had about 400 student, and only the top 5% got an A regardless of how much you really learned, while my friend took Ochem at the local community college with about 50 other students, and they could have all potentially gotten and A.
So and A from an university is not the same as an A for a CC."
They could have potentially gotten an A. What grades did they really get?
So your friend's CC now speaks for every CC in the nation? 5 percent of 400 people is 20 people. 20 people getting As in one class is quite extreme. Do people really think that 50/50 of community college students get As? I'd say the 5 percent rule applies as well.

The problem of comparing a CC student with an A in o-chem with an A in o-chem from a highly selective university (Ivys/Duke/Stanford/MIT,etc), is that we can't assume that the CC student would have earned an A had they been sitting in the o-chem class at another school. What is the top 5% at one school might be someone who would have been in the middle of the pack at a school of exceptionally talented individuals. What happens at some schools is profound grade inflation. A few years ago something like 90% of all Harvard grades were A or A-. Then it becomes very difficult to differentiate among students from that one school.

 

[suwaifo]

The problem of comparing a CC student with an A in o-chem with an A in o-chem from a highly selective university (Ivys/Duke/Stanford/MIT,etc), is that we can't assume that the CC student would have earned an A had they been sitting in the o-chem class at another school. What is the top 5% at one school might be someone who would have been in the middle of the pack at a school of exceptionally talented individuals. What happens at some schools is profound grade inflation. A few years ago something like 90% of all Harvard grades were A or A-. Then it becomes very difficult to differentiate among students from that one school.

What also happens is that during high school, those who have somehow, at the age of 14 or so, figured out that they need to get into a good college to be "successful" in the "real world", tend to cheat and do anything to boost their grades. In fact, there was an incident of cheating on the AP Calculus BC exam in my high school. Who were the cheaters? They were the supposed "academically talented" students that you knew were going places. What happened with them? Nothing. They're probably going to highly selective schools anyways. Then they will become our doctors and engineers and life goes on.

 

[JA Prufrock]

The problem of comparing a CC student with an A in o-chem with an A in o-chem from a highly selective university (Ivys/Duke/Stanford/MIT,etc), is that we can't assume that the CC student would have earned an A had they been sitting in the o-chem class at another school. What is the top 5% at one school might be someone who would have been in the middle of the pack at a school of exceptionally talented individuals. What happens at some schools is profound grade inflation. A few years ago something like 90% of all Harvard grades were A or A-. Then it becomes very difficult to differentiate among students from that one school.

how do you handle this sort of thing, then? I'm sure if you had a student with an A from a CC and a student with an A from Duke, you'd go with the guy from Duke. However, how do you compare a student with an A from a CC and a B or C from Duke? To keep things simple, let's assume they are roughly similar in other areas.

 

[suwaifo]

how do you handle this sort of thing, then? I'm sure if you had a student with an A from a CC and a student with an A from Duke, you'd go with the guy from Duke. However, how do you compare a student with an A from a CC and a B or C from Duke? To keep things simple, let's assume they are roughly similar in other areas.

Am I the only one who feels that this assumption is unjustified?

 

[JA Prufrock]

Am I the only one who feels that this assumption is unjustified?

it seemed to be what Lizzy was inferring

 

[suwaifo]

it seemed to be what Lizzy was inferring

I might have read her wrongly, but a school of exceptionally talented individuals is very unclear. Who is to judge this?

 

[arezzo]

"Potential" means exactly that. Assuming CCs are less likely to grade on a bell curve, people at CC have a higher potential to get an A than the students on a bell curve, ANYWHERE (not saying that bell curve CC classes don't exist). I think I understand where you're coming from, but it all comes down to an individual teacher's policies.

Ad-coms, not having the luxury of knowing the way each pre-req course was taught, are more likely to view universities as being more competitive--and that's just to be efficient.

Ideally ad-coms would have some standardized method for comparing every pre-med's grades against the next pre-med, but no one has the time/patience for that The system kinda sucks at times, but that's why there are other things like MCAT, clinical experience, volunteering, etc.

And if the class is not graded on a curve? I have never seen a class graded on a curve on my campus. I'm not speaking for everyone of course.

What people may lack in "academic talent", they make up for in motivational drive. Something which you would especially find in a community college among the right students. The same thing can be said among universities as well except minus the discriminatory baggage.

"Its not that you learn anything different at a community college, but it is much easier to get a better grade at a CC. For example at my university my OChem class had about 400 student, and only the top 5% got an A regardless of how much you really learned, while my friend took Ochem at the local community college with about 50 other students, and they could have all potentially gotten and A.
So and A from an university is not the same as an A for a CC."
They could have potentially gotten an A. What grades did they really get?
So your friend's CC now speaks for every CC in the nation? 5 percent of 400 people is 20 people. 20 people getting As in one class is quite extreme. Do people really think that 50/50 of community college students get As? I'd say the 5 percent rule applies as well.

 

[ufgrad00]

Some people told me that medical school does not like CC credits and it is also extremely hard to be accepted with cc credits. can anyone tell me if this is true or not?

Not True.

They will transfer. Only a few schools, I believe BU is one of them, doesn't like transfer students. The overwhelming majority of public and most certainly state schools do not discriminate against community college transfer students.

I know several transfer students that have gone to medical school including myself, and I feel fortunate to have had several invitations and acceptances. As far as the subject of me going to a CC, it was never an issue. I also never needed to "perform extra" in my MCAT or GPA to compensate because I went to a CC.

Even at my interviews at FSU and Albert Einstein, my interviewers let me know that it is becoming increasingly common to have more matriculants from CC's, and my AE interviewer let me know that this is especially true to accept CC students at many med schools because of things like rising tuition costs at many ugrad schools.

 

[ufgrad00]

I would also like to add that Florida and most states have "Articulation Agreements". Publicly Funded state medical schools, at least in FL that I know of, are not allowed to discriminate against other publicly funded institutions of higher ed including CC's.

By the way, the argument of the 5% at a University orgo class compared to a cc is moot, because the curve for the A can vary by section or professor even within that university. For instance, at UF my professor of orgo I gave the top 15% of the class an A, while other professors of orgo I would give as high as the top 22%.

 

[LizzyM]

What also happens is that during high school, those who have somehow, at the age of 14 or so, figured out that they need to get into a good college to be "successful" in the "real world", tend to cheat and do anything to boost their grades. In fact, there was an incident of cheating on the AP Calculus BC exam in my high school. Who were the cheaters? They were the supposed "academically talented" students that you knew were going places. What happened with them? Nothing. They're probably going to highly selective schools anyways. Then they will become our doctors and engineers and life goes on.

So all the students at good colleges got there because they cheat?
Sterotype much?

 

[LizzyM]

I might have read her wrongly, but a school of exceptionally talented individuals is very unclear. Who is to judge this?

What is the average and range of SAT scores for students matriculating at Duke, Harvard, MIT and Stanford? HS performance of same students?

Compare to the community college of your choice. Which has a more academically talented pool of students?

There are quite a few other schools that accept only the very brightest HS students. There are other schools that are not as selective. Do you understand?

 

[LizzyM]

how do you handle this sort of thing, then? I'm sure if you had a student with an A from a CC and a student with an A from Duke, you'd go with the guy from Duke. However, how do you compare a student with an A from a CC and a B or C from Duke? To keep things simple, let's assume they are roughly similar in other areas.

An A from a CC and an A from Duke don't tell us too much... maybe the guy at the CC could have earned an A at Duke but didn't have the opportunity to dream big. If the CC and Duke students have the same MCAT then the 2 As are, no doubt, comparable. If the cc student has an MCAT 5 points less than the Duke student then we can assume that the As are not comparable.

 

[arezzo]

I don't disagree with this, but I thought the original point was to differentiate between courses using the same textbook/materials. Then it comes down to teachers and grading policies. This is where the assumption that the more difficult grading policies/teachers factors in, because universities are stereotypically less likely to inflate grades. Without a method of comparing every single class, adcoms have to make some assumptions or they would never be able to choose who gets an interview.

correct me if I'm wrong

What is the average and range of SAT scores for students matriculating at Duke, Harvard, MIT and Stanford? HS performance of same students?

Compare to the community college of your choice. Which has a more academically talented pool of students?

There are quite a few other schools that accept only the very brightest HS students. There are other schools that are not as selective. Do you understand?

 

[suwaifo]

What is the average and range of SAT scores for students matriculating at Duke, Harvard, MIT and Stanford? HS performance of same students?

Compare to the community college of your choice. Which has a more academically talented pool of students?

There are quite a few other schools that accept only the very brightest HS students. There are other schools that are not as selective. Do you understand?

Are you matching brightest HS students with high scoring SAT scores? I would like to see where you get this information from. That and you would really need to define what bright means in your case.

What I'm understanding is that highly selective schools basically do the dirty work that adcoms don't want to do. It almost seems that if one wants to have a fair chance at becoming a doctor in a reasonable amount of time, one should start as early as 8th grade. By this, I mean 4 years of undergrad (or less).

 

[dienekes88]

Are you matching brightest HS students with high scoring SAT scores? I would like to see where you get this information from. That and you would really need to define what bright means in your case.

What I'm understanding is that highly selective schools basically do the dirty work that adcoms don't want to do. It almost seems that if one wants to have a fair chance at becoming a doctor in a reasonable amount of time, one should start as early as 8th grade. By this, I mean 4 years of undergrad (or less).

You can use high school GPA too if you like...

Anyway, the same thing happens when comparing the BU student against the Williams student... both of whom are at a disadvantage to the Harvard student. GPAs just aren't created equal. Even if there are more A's at one school than another, the talent pools are different and AdComs do what they can to even the playing field.

Maybe the system isn't fair. Arguing that a couple CC students could match wits with a CalTech 3.8 in ChemE isn't going to change that.

Rock the MCAT. Do your thing. Remove the chip from your shoulder. Get into Harvard or Hopkins.

 

[dienekes88]

Some people told me that medical school does not like CC credits and it is also extremely hard to be accepted with cc credits. can anyone tell me if this is true or not?

I dunno. If it's true, what would you do? I understand that financial reasons, family situations, et cetera can limit a student's options. If you wouldn't change anything, then I'd try not to worry about it.

 

[Tutmos]

...Remove the chip from your shoulder. Get into Harvard or Hopkins.

I agree, the only thing I got from this thread is that one person is extremely bitter about not getting into a good University because they screwed around in high school and now he's begrudging people that worked hard while he didn't. All else being equal I can't imagine any case where a person from a community college would ever be accepted before a person from almost ANY University. Before another tantrum keep in mind I said all else being equal.

 

[HumidBeing]

An A from a CC and an A from Duke don't tell us too much... maybe the guy at the CC could have earned an A at Duke but didn't have the opportunity to dream big. If the CC and Duke students have the same MCAT then the 2 As are, no doubt, comparable. If the cc student has an MCAT 5 points less than the Duke student then we can assume that the As are not comparable.

I'm in agreement with this, just as I would agree with the same statement reworded to compare any two colleges.

Ufgrad00 made a very significant, but often overlooked, point about CC's. In order to both protect students, and to assure quality of education, states put a great deal of effort into creating articulation agreements. The designated courses are specifically designed to be essentially equivalent to their counterparts at the universities under each state's umbrella.

The argument that the community colleges inherently have an overall less academically talented pool of students, and therefore one can obtain an equivalent GPA at a CC while maintaining lower performance, deserves to be reconsidered.

It is true that the overall academic abilities of the CC's student body are lower than those of a university. That is as it should be, since CC's are open enrollment institutions which are designed to afford educational opportunities, at a variety of levels, to all parties who seek to advance their education. They offer a variety of programs, including remedial, vocational, technical certification, and academic. That is their role. Universities have higher minimum requirements and focus on academic curricula.

It does not, however, follow that the academic courses within the CC's are any less stringent, nor that they are graded more leniently than within the universities. I can only speak from my own experience within one CC and one university. There is no curve in the CC classes. The grading is, if anything, more strict because the school holds pride in the reputation of the quality of its education. The top students in my math and science classes at the CC are equal in ability to the top students in my 600 level classes at the university. The greatest difference that I have seen is that the top CC students tend to be more mature, both in age and life view.

My opinion, from experience, is that although the overall population at the CC is not as academically fit as at the university, those who succeed within the academic programs are comparable in ability to those who do well in the university. Someone stated that students at a CC have a higher to potential to receive "A's" than at an institution where grades are curved. This is theoretically true. The actuality is that they are more likely to get "C" level and below. At the CC, a 69% in ochem is still a "D", even if it is the highest grade and the class average was a 40%. Students are graded on their own performance, not in comparison to others. Since the overall ability is lower, the overall grade average winds up being lower in the entry level classes. The presumed higher potential to receive "A's" is, in reality, a higher potential to receive "F's".

I would love to attend Duke. I think I would thrive in the environment. Life circumstances have dictated another path for me, though, and I've been making the best I can of the options I've had available.

LizzyM, I certainly hope that neither you, nor any other adcomm member, would deem someone like me to be either less worthy or less capable based on the type of institution in which we began our undergraduate careers.

One of the greatest benefits I have received from attending a CC is a greater opportunity to really get to know people from a broader variety of life circumstances.

Just sign me as a student who is unapologetic for my academic roots.

 

[LizzyM]

A few years ago I saw an application from a guy who wasn't sure he wanted to go to college, changed his mind after hitting bottom, supported himself with a job in retail and went to community college for 2 years. He reconciled with his parents and begged them to support him through the last 2 years of college. They agreed, he went to an Ivy. His gpa at the CC was 4.0 and at the Ivy it was something like 3.95. I have no doubt that many excellent schools offered him interviews and if he interviewed well, I suspect he got an offer and is now in med school.

Also, the now retired Dean of one of the SUNY med schools was himself a graduate of a community college!

The bigger problem is the student from a top school who takes physics or o-chem at a community college over the summer to avoid taking a particularly tough course at their home institution.

 

[dienekes88]

Wait! I have to throw in a comparison in the other direction.

I have a 99% average on written exams at the French Culinary Institute. I think my practical exam average is in the low-90s (I wasn't a very good baker prior to attending, and I had nothing in the way of knife skills).

I'm pretty sure I only had one exam that was a 98% or higher while attending a major university. Therefore... FCI is easier than university. Make of it what you will...

As far as I know, I was not penalized for attending a trade school. However, I have 16 rejections that might disagree.

 

[suwaifo]

I agree, the only thing I got from this thread is that one person is extremely bitter about not getting into a good University because they screwed around in high school and now he's begrudging people that worked hard while he didn't. All else being equal I can't imagine any case where a person from a community college would ever be accepted before a person from almost ANY University. Before another tantrum keep in mind I said all else being equal.

I'm gonna throw a tantrum here,
first, there is the case of the slacker high school student. So what, why would he or she work hard if he had no real view of a career or goal in mind? If anything, setting your life to one thing at that age is foolish. Anyone that worked super hard in high school probably was either really lonely or grew up extremely quickly.
Second, theres more to a low gpa than a bad work ethic. Some people have family members with medically related illness. Some people actually have to take care of them. Grades are a sacrifice that must be made. It's no surprise that this same student would want to be a doctor.
Theres obviously more scenarios, but your ignorant assumptions are why people think so lowly of community colleges.
Good luck, you're probably referring to me with your statements, I would hardly be jealous of kids getting drunk or wasting money on stuff they don't need. The community college experience is an experience like no other, university kids just don't get it. Oh, and for the person who said get the chip off my shoulder, I'm not upset for my own sake, but for all the potential doctors that get disheartened from this misconception.

Edit: You're dumb.

 

[ufgrad00]

I agree, the only thing I got from this thread is that one person is extremely bitter about not getting into a good University because they screwed around in high school and now he's begrudging people that worked hard while he didn't. All else being equal I can't imagine any case where a person from a community college would ever be accepted before a person from almost ANY University. Before another tantrum keep in mind I said all else being equal.

You have a lot to learn and a lot of maturing left to do, and definitely do not underestimate how much interviews make a difference. And, No, two applicants having similar stats will most definitely not have "equal" interviews. From my experience I have met many others like myself on the interview trail who went the CC path.

 

[dienekes88]

I'm gonna throw a tantrum here,
first, there is the case of the slacker high school student. So what, why would he or she work hard if he had no real view of a career or goal in mind? If anything, setting your life to one thing at that age is foolish. Anyone that worked super hard in high school probably was either really lonely or grew up extremely quickly.
Second, theres more to a low gpa than a bad work ethic. Some people have family members with medically related illness. Some people actually have to take care of them. Grades are a sacrifice that must be made. It's no surprise that this same student would want to be a doctor.
Theres obviously more scenarios, but your ignorant assumptions are why people think so lowly of community colleges.
Good luck, you're probably referring to me with your statements, I would hardly be jealous of kids getting drunk or wasting money on stuff they don't need. The community college experience is an experience like no other, university kids just don't get it. Oh, and for the person who said get the chip off my shoulder, I'm not upset for my own sake, but for all the potential doctors that get disheartened from this misconception.

Edit: You're dumb.

Ouch. Were you calling me dumb, because I told you to get the chip off your shoulder? That's a little much.

Yelling at a student who attends a liberal arts college or university (most of SDN) will not change a CC-student's mind about medicine. You can tell the CC students giving up on medicine that it's possible to make it. Better yet, you can make it and give them an example to follow.

Do your thing and be good at it. The people who interact with you will change their minds about CC, and CC-students will start dreaming about med school.

 

[suwaifo]

Ouch. Were you calling me dumb, because I told you to get the chip off your shoulder? That's a little much.

Yelling at a student at a liberal arts college or university (most of SDN) will not change a CC-student's mind about medicine. You can tell the CC students giving up on medicine that it's possible to make it. Better yet, you can make it and give them an example to follow.

Do your thing and be good at it. The people who interact with you will change their minds about CC, and CC-students will start dreaming about med school.

I wasn't talking about you... Sorry for being unclear.

 

[Zyvox]

You know it depends on the university. University of Miami "very-strongly" prefers you to complete most of your sciences at a University, while other's don't care as much.

 

[dienekes88]

I wasn't talking about you... Sorry for being unclear.

Hahaha. I read that and thought, "whoa, I'm trying to be the level-headed one here. Only on SDN..."

 

[HumidBeing]

A few years ago I saw an application from a guy who wasn't sure he wanted to go to college, changed his mind after hitting bottom, supported himself with a job in retail and went to community college for 2 years. He reconciled with his parents and begged them to support him through the last 2 years of college. They agreed, he went to an Ivy. His gpa at the CC was 4.0 and at the Ivy it was something like 3.95. I have no doubt that many excellent schools offered him interviews and if he interviewed well, I suspect he got an offer and is now in med school.

Also, the now retired Dean of one of the SUNY med schools was himself a graduate of a community college!

The bigger problem is the student from a top school who takes physics or o-chem at a community college over the summer to avoid taking a particularly tough course at their home institution.

I agree. I'll also comment that one of the greatest pleasures that I've had during my time at the CC was seeing some of these students there last summer. Some radiated an attitude of superiority, wearing their school emblems, and treating the regular enrollees with disdain. It was a pleasure to watch them get owned by the unrelentingly fast pace of the summer courses. In the summer, there is only one class day to drop. Most wound up having to eventually take a "W" in order to save their GPA's. It seemed like an appropriate comeuppance to me.

The main objective of my original post was to encourage those who think of CC's with the student body as a whole in mind, to realize that average CC student is not representative of those who successfully navigate their way through the academic hoops in order to transfer to universities.

My post was defensive, because I do consider myself to be a capable, intelligent, and determined person. It does sting each time posters declare or insinuate that my potential is less, and that my own accomplishments hold less validity, because I attended a CC. I want to educate those who do so in order to better align their preconceptions with reality. I am who I am, and want to believe that I will make it or not based on my own capabilities and accomplishments and not the name or cost of the institutions I attend.

I'm not directing these comments directly at LizzyM, but at posters in general.

To suwaifo - motivation does not make up for lack of ability. One does not need to start in eighth grade in order to reach med school on a reasonable schedule. Not every highly achieving high school student cheats. Most cheaters who are caught are punished. Highly selective schools do not do the "dirty work" that adcomms don't want to do. Demeaning those who are successful does nothing to improve your own abilities. Focus on being the best you can be instead of wasting wind denigrating the successes of others. You can't climb out of the well by yanking in the person who is trying to hand you a rope to pull yourself out.

 

[suwaifo]

I agree. I'll also comment that one of the greatest pleasures that I've had during my time at the CC was seeing some of these students there last summer. Some radiated an attitude of superiority, wearing their school emblems, and treating the regular enrollees with disdain. It was a pleasure to watch them get owned by the unrelentingly fast pace of the summer courses. In the summer, there is only one class day to drop. Most wound up having to eventually take a "W" in order to save their GPA's. It seemed like an appropriate comeuppance to me.

The main objective of my original post was to encourage those who think of CC's with the student body as a whole in mind, to realize that average CC student is not representative of those who successfully navigate their way through the academic hoops in order to transfer to universities.

My post was defensive, because I do consider myself to be a capable, intelligent, and determined person. It does sting each time posters declare or insinuate that my potential is less, and that my own accomplishments hold less validity, because I attended a CC. I want to educate those who do so in order to better align their preconceptions with reality. I am who I am, and want to believe that I will make it or not based on my own capabilities and accomplishments and not the name or cost of the institutions I attend.

I'm not directing these comments directly at LizzyM, but at posters in general.

To suwaifo - motivation does not make up for lack of ability. One does not need to start in eighth grade in order to reach med school on a reasonable schedule. Not every highly achieving high school student cheats. Most cheaters who are caught are punished. Highly selective schools do not do the "dirty work" that adcomms don't want to do. Demeaning those who are successful does nothing to improve your own abilities. Focus on being the best you can be instead of wasting wind denigrating the successes of others. You can't climb out of the well by yanking in the person who is trying to hand you a rope to pull yourself out.

I was just referring to the fact that hard work beats talent when talent fails to work hard. I know that most people don't cheat. I praise success. I'm just saying, just as community college students are generalized, university students are generalized in a similar way. I'll be a fine med school applicant, I'm sure of it. I'm just tired of people patronizing CC people.

 

[Tutmos]

You have a lot to learn and a lot of maturing left to do, and definitely do not underestimate how much interviews make a difference. And, No, two applicants having similar stats will most definitely not have "equal" interviews. From my experience I have met many others like myself on the interview trail who went the CC path.

I normally wouldn't bother to respond to something like this but I thought it was kind of funny given the reality. I'm a married 37 year old man with two children that's done fairly well in life. I'm not sure how much additional time I have left to pray for maturity, although I'm sure my wife would suggest I have plenty of room for improvement.

Unfortunately what you're misconstruing as immaturity is in fact simply cynicism earned over the years and something you also will develop as you age and see the reality of the world.

Further you should really focus on VR because I CLEARLY said twice "all else being equal." ALL ELSE, meaning interview and everything but the controlled variable, University vs. Community College. I have no doubt that a person that has some courses in a community college can get into a medical school, my point is that compared to an otherwise carbon copy person with only University courses they will lose that theoretical last slot everytime. Unless you're praying for an oddball case where some rare adcom has a personal history with community colleges you're kidding yourself thinking it's just as good. It seems clear to me that you're actually trying to convince yourself more than anything else. Perhaps I should just rub your tummy and tell you that you're right.

This is a competitive venture, meaning you need to give yourself any advantage within your control, where you go to school and how much you study are things within your control.

 

[SketchLazy]

Some people told me that medical school does not like CC credits and it is also extremely hard to be accepted with cc credits. can anyone tell me if this is true or not?

Your chances are definitely not shot if you are a cc transfer student. As long as you maintain your grades when you transfer and score like everybody else who matriculates on the MCAT, you'll be fine.

As a transfer student myself, I have to admit that the quality and difficulty of classes varies widely among CCs even in the same state. Compare them across the country, and the differences are probably huge with some CCs focusing more on the trade school component of their education then the transfer portion. In CA, we are fortunate that some genius decided to draft the Master Plan for Higher Education which ensured that CCs were going to be a stepping stone for transfer instead of isolated trade schools, but it's different for different states. Because of the lack of conforming standards at every CC, I think adcoms are forced to focus less on our cc time and more on something that can be comparable to the majority of people who apply, which would be our performance at the university. With so many different students with various backgrounds it's hard enough as it is to justify admitting one student over the other even with standards like the MCAT. I don't think they need another factor to take into account such as our time before attending the university. Personally, I think it's unfair, mostly because the preparation I got at my cc allowed me to do well at my university, but I can understand where admissions committees are coming from when they decide how they will compare a cc and a uni student. What I can't understand is the university students that got in straight from high school. When a university student decides to evaluate a CC student's education, they're doing it to make themselves feel special, and that's pretty damn lame. At least the adcoms are doing it because they're trying to decide who they want to admit.

 

[HumidBeing]

I normally wouldn't bother to respond to something like this but I thought it was kind of funny given the reality. I'm a married 37 year old man with two children that's done fairly well in life. I'm not sure how much additional time I have left to pray for maturity, although I'm sure my wife would suggest I have plenty of room for improvement.

Unfortunately what you're misconstruing as immaturity is in fact simply cynicism earned over the years and something you also will develop as you age and see the reality of the world.

Further you should really focus on VR because I CLEARLY said twice "all else being equal." ALL ELSE, meaning interview and everything but the controlled variable, University vs. Community College. I have no doubt that a person that has some courses in a community college can get into a medical school, my point is that compared to an otherwise carbon copy person with only University courses they will lose that theoretical last slot everytime. Unless you're praying for an oddball case where some rare adcom has a personal history with community colleges you're kidding yourself thinking it's just as good. It seems clear to me that you're actually trying to convince yourself more than anything else. Perhaps I should just rub your tummy and tell you that you're right.

This is a competitive venture, meaning you need to give yourself any advantage within your control, where you go to school and how much you study are things within your control.

Tutmos, one weakness to this argument is that you will not come across two applicants who are identical except that one began his higher education at a CC. No two people are going to have the exact same research experiences, outside interests and activities, or have LOR's saying the same thing from the same professors. Even if those things were within the same range range of acceptability or impressiveness, Personal Statements and interviews would never be identical. I am inclined to believe that final decisions come down, not to which undergrad an applicant attended, but to whether he and his personality are the better fit for that particular school. It's more than a matter of being qualified; it's a matter of good fit and probability of successfully completing the program.

Not every student does have control over where he is able to attend school. Many factors play into that. Academic ability is can be one, but often is not the limiting factor. Experienced adcomms know that successful candidates come from a wide range of backgrounds and experiences. I trust them to be able to cut through the glitter and consider the substance of cursorily comparable candidates.

 

[HumidBeing]

SketchLazy, I really enjoyed the link in your signature line. Just thought I'd let you know.

 

[suwaifo]

I normally wouldn't bother to respond to something like this but I thought it was kind of funny given the reality. I'm a married 37 year old man with two children that's done fairly well in life. I'm not sure how much additional time I have left to pray for maturity, although I'm sure my wife would suggest I have plenty of room for improvement.

Unfortunately what you're misconstruing as immaturity is in fact simply cynicism earned over the years and something you also will develop as you age and see the reality of the world.

Further you should really focus on VR because I CLEARLY said twice "all else being equal." ALL ELSE, meaning interview and everything but the controlled variable, University vs. Community College. I have no doubt that a person that has some courses in a community college can get into a medical school, my point is that compared to an otherwise carbon copy person with only University courses they will lose that theoretical last slot everytime. Unless you're praying for an oddball case where some rare adcom has a personal history with community colleges you're kidding yourself thinking it's just as good. It seems clear to me that you're actually trying to convince yourself more than anything else. Perhaps I should just rub your tummy and tell you that you're right.

This is a competitive venture, meaning you need to give yourself any advantage within your control, where you go to school and how much you study are things within your control.

They also used to think that the earth was flat but whatever.
This is indeed competitive. I have quite the competitive application. I'm pretty sure no ones in this to say that CC students deserve a one up on the process.
Your cynicism is obviously related to your own failure at life. You make excuses because you can't handle the reality. Ironic isn't it? Get over yourself, if the cc student gets invited to an interview and the uni carbon copy student gets invited, would it matter where they came from anymore? It's even ground from that point.

 

[unsung]

There's another part of the discussion that hasn't been addressed yet, it seems: the quality of the instructor and his/her expectations of the students.

By this, I don't mean how well the professor can actually teach... we all know plenty of university profs who can't teach their way out of a bag . What I mean is, how *knowledgeable* is the professor and how much will the instruction challenge/push the student?

For a bright student who is truly curious and trying hard to learn the material, will the professor truly be able to challenge such a student without alienating the majority of the class ? Will the tests in that class reflect high expectations of the student body and help a bright student to better comprehend the material?

I've often found that higher standards set in a rigorous class have really forced me to learn material at a higher level. I took calc in HS, but when I got to college, I had the opportunity to take honors calc, and man it was the toughest class I've ever taken-- all proofs. But, it was rewarding as well, and part of that came from working with my classmates, since homework sets were this great challenge for all of us. That standard of instruction, and the great atmosphere of being with peers who really care about this stuff pushed me to do much more than I thought I could do.

Isn't going to an institution like that the reason we busted our asses in HS? I'm sure if I had gone to a CC, I would have learned a lot too. Perhaps in some ways, I would have learned more, or learned different things (different study techniques, or different insights into people/life etc. etc.). But overall, it's just ridiculous to say "the quality of the institution doesn't matter, an A is an A."

It's not just about getting that A... the very process of being challenged and pushed by not only the instruction but by your peers gives a better result in the end. It's just like with exercise- if you aren't pushed by a rigorous coach and by competition from your peers, in the end you won't be as fit. The institution trains and hones the person. Unless you're just some wunderkind with natural aptitute, who can go from a 4.0 at a CC to a 3.95 at an Ivy ... well in that case, good for you. Plenty of "ordinary people" (salt of the Earth) show up on Jeopardy, too, and I guess they're naturally gifted and soak up information wherever, whenever, really easily, without needing prodding, or formal training, etc.

Not being such a wunderkind, I think where I went to school really made a difference in helping me to hone my analytical abilities, way of approaching problems, study skills, etc. basically everything. But I guess this is all really a moot point, 'cuz I think Adcoms believe all this, anyway. It's only pre-meds who will try and argue that going to CC doesn't matter, or shouldn't matter. For a talented few, I think this is likely true. But for a majority of folks, that line of reasoning just doesn't fly.

 

[suwaifo]

There's another part of the discussion that hasn't been addressed yet, it seems: the quality of the instructor and his/her expectations of the students.

By this, I don't mean how well the professor can actually teach... we all know plenty of university profs who can't teach their way out of a bag . What I mean is, how *knowledgeable* is the professor and how much will the instruction challenge/push the student?

For a bright student who is truly curious and trying hard to learn the material, will the professor truly be able to challenge such a student without alienating the majority of the class ? Will the tests in that class reflect high expectations of the student body and help a bright student to better comprehend the material?

I've often found that higher standards set in a rigorous class have really forced me to learn material at a higher level. I took calc in HS, but when I got to college, I had the opportunity to take honors calc, and man it was the toughest class I've ever taken-- all proofs. But, it was rewarding as well, and part of that came from working with my classmates, since homework sets were this great challenge for all of us. That standard of instruction, and the great atmosphere of being with peers who really care about this stuff pushed me to do much more than I thought I could do.

Isn't going to an institution like that the reason we busted our asses in HS? I'm sure if I had gone to a CC, I would have learned a lot too. Perhaps in some ways, I would have learned more, or learned different things (different study techniques, or different insights into people/life etc. etc.). But overall, it's just ridiculous to say "the quality of the institution doesn't matter, an A is an A."

It's not just about getting that A... the very process of being challenged and pushed by not only the instruction but by your peers gives a better result in the end. It's just like with exercise- if you aren't pushed by a rigorous coach and by competition from your peers, in the end you won't be as fit. The institution trains and hones the person. Unless you're just some wunderkind with natural aptitute, who can go from a 4.0 at a CC to a 3.95 at an Ivy ... well in that case, good for you. Plenty of "ordinary people" show up on Jeopardy, too, and I guess they're naturally gifted and soak up information wherever, whenever, really easily, without needing prodding, or training.

Not being such a wunderkind, I think where I went to school really made a difference in helping me to hone my analytical abilities, way of approaching problems, study skills, etc. basically everything. But I guess this is all really a moot point, 'cuz I think Adcoms believe all this, anyway. It's only pre-meds who will try and argue that going to CC doesn't matter, or shouldn't matter. For a talented few, I think this is likely true. But for a majority of folks, that line of reasoning just doesn't fly.

I would have called you a tool back in high school, college isn't necessary for a good education. I don't mean to say that you are a tool, you clearly had a good vision of college, but when I was in high school, I didn't care about being rich, and I was already well intellectually stimulated. I live in CA and I still talk to friends in UC and CSU, it's pretty much the same thing that goes on everywhere. My college classmates are just as enthusiastic. In laymen's terms,that just sounds like you're calling all of my peers ******s.
At a university, you don't necessarily have to stay at home, but commuting to school everyday and going back home every night is a totally different experience, one that university student's wouldn't understand.

The fact is, you guys are arguing that not everyone is created equally or has the same potential as everyone else. I disagree. 'nuff said.

 

[HumidBeing]

They also used to think that the earth was flat but whatever.
This is indeed competitive. I have quite the competitive application. I'm pretty sure no ones in this to say that CC students deserve a one up on the process.
Your cynicism is obviously related to your own failure at life. You make excuses because you can't handle the reality. Ironic isn't it? Get over yourself, if the cc student gets invited to an interview and the uni carbon copy student gets invited, would it matter where they came from anymore? It's even ground from that point.

Suwaifo, I'd appreciate it if you would stop throwing personal insults at the posters who disagree with you. It is poor form and does nothing to positively promote your arguments.

 

[ufgrad00]

I normally wouldn't bother to respond to something like this but I thought it was kind of funny given the reality. I'm a married 37 year old man with two children that's done fairly well in life. I'm not sure how much additional time I have left to pray for maturity, although I'm sure my wife would suggest I have plenty of room for improvement.

Unfortunately what you're misconstruing as immaturity is in fact simply cynicism earned over the years and something you also will develop as you age and see the reality of the world.

Further you should really focus on VR because I CLEARLY said twice "all else being equal." ALL ELSE, meaning interview and everything but the controlled variable, University vs. Community College. I have no doubt that a person that has some courses in a community college can get into a medical school, my point is that compared to an otherwise carbon copy person with only University courses they will lose that theoretical last slot everytime. Unless you're praying for an oddball case where some rare adcom has a personal history with community colleges you're kidding yourself thinking it's just as good. It seems clear to me that you're actually trying to convince yourself more than anything else. Perhaps I should just rub your tummy and tell you that you're right.

This is a competitive venture, meaning you need to give yourself any advantage within your control, where you go to school and how much you study are things within your control.

I am sorry if it hurts your view of things, but what you are putting out in your posts simply is not the case. You have more years on me, but as I have finished this year's interview cycle I have learned many things and one of them is that the actual undergrad institution is not as important as you think.

One, there are "articulation agreements" in many states, like I posted about earlier. And two, by your argument, if CC's are considered inferior to any university, then are state universities considered inferior to highly endowed privates? Must students from a central state university always do worse in the process than someone from an Ivy, "all things be equal"? I believe that when you start applying or when you gain more experience in the process you will see that name recognition and the whole CC vs. University is not nearly as important as you think.

I feel fortunate to have been invited to many interviews and have been accepted to many programs, and as a fromer CC student I never felt I was at a disadvantage. And the fact that I went to a CC never came up, unless I brought it up. I don't feel like I am a stellar candidate, I have mainly average stats for a matriculate (actually less than average at some of the schools that accepted me), and yet I have friends that went all 4 years at a university, have much better stats but haven't been accepted anywhere. On paper, they look much better, and yet they are waitlisted. And, no, I am not a URM if you are thinking that.

As far as your theoretical situation about two equal candidates, it doesn't and would never exist, so theres no point in arguing it. No one grows up with the same experiences nor has the same essays. However, if someone is wanting to justify spending crazy amounts for a BA/BS degree, I understand, anyone would be frustrated to find a CC student doing better then.

 

[Tutmos]

The fact is, you guys are arguing that not everyone is created equally or has the same potential as everyone else. I disagree. 'nuff said.

I hope you're joking. As much as I hate to admit it, some people are just smarter than me, and despite my protestations my wife has informed me that some people are even better looking than me, silly I know. BTW why wouldn't University students know what it's like to commute? A huge number of students at big state schools are from the local metro areas and commute everyday, like me.

If it makes you feel any better I haven't failed in life, no need to keep praying for me, thank you all the same. I'm doing this whole "medical school chase" in addition to my other job and have no intention of giving that up even after medical school. I wanted to find something that would stimulate me into my 80's since I can't imagine ever retiring.

I'm going to leave it at this because you're either a troll or you have an axe to grind here and nobody is going to convince you otherwise, no matter how right they may be.

Best of luck to you in your pursuit.

 

[Tutmos]

...1.the actual undergrad institution is not as important as you think.

...2. if CC's are considered inferior to any university, then are state universities considered inferior to highly endowed privates? Must students from a central state university always do worse in the process than someone from an Ivy, "all things be equal"?

I understand, anyone would be frustrated to find a CC student doing better then.

1. I don't think it's critical, but I don't have any doubts that it could be a deciding factor between who out of the 10,000 applicants gets an interview. As an employer for over 15 years I can tell you in even a moderate pool of applicants people start to look very much the same on paper.

2. I go to a pretty standard big state University and I have no illusion that if I had the same stats and history as an undergrad from MIT or Yale and we were both residents they'd get the spot.

Grats on getting in btw. If your stats were near the median of those accepted then I don't see the contradiction, clearly you were as qualified on the basis of stats as half those accepted.